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    Default Discussion of Introverted Intuition Ni

    Somehow is the information element that is most controversial here.

    I think that part of the problem is the function blocked to it. Just like some people tend to think of as mostly the Alpha version, +, which is also what Jung was mainly thinking of when he wrote about his Extraverted Feeling, others tend to see as basically +, the Beta version - which, again, is what Jung was mainly thinking when he wrote about his Introverted Intuition.

    I think that there is an inclination on part of some people not to think of the differences between + and +.

    Then, for course, there is still a greater difference when you don't have but .

    A long, long time ago I wrote descriptions on how would be perceived by those types. I wouldn't necessarily write them again today like that, I would at least change the wording, but I believe they are still essentially correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by Expat's old description
    Ni types

    Ni types perceive reality as a flow that is taking them -- somewhere, but the final destination is less a central part of their perception than the flow itself.

    Let us imagine a boat sailing gently down a river. Ni types are on an observation deck of the boat. They feel best when they know that the voyage is proceeding at the right speed and along the desired route- however, should there be an unexpected change in the route and a secondary river be taken, the Ni types immediately adjust to that and are now immersing in the flow of the new route. Transition is managed without stress.

    The INTp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INTp knows that there are no Te obstacles - the boat's machines are running smoothly, the water level will remain adequate, all the harbors will be open and with the desired supplies. As long as the information on such matters is satisfactory, the INTp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INFp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INFp knows that there will be no Fe obstacles. The INFp relies on the other people of the boat to assure that the trip will proceed well. As long as those people are well-disposed towards the INFp emotionally, the INFp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INTp is not particularly concerned with the other people on the boat. However, the INTp does need a trusted companion who will deal with them (if necessary) and will help the INTp to actually deal with the obstacles perceived by the INTp. That companion is the ESFp, who probably was also the one to get the INTp on board in the first place.

    The INFp prefers not to deal with the kind of obstacles the INTp regards as vital: the INFp feels that the trip will proceed smoothly as long as the other people on the boat are well disposed. However, not everyone will be well-disposed towards the INFp. To the deal with those, and to the other obstacles that might arise, the INFp has an ally, the ESTp. And, again, probably it was the ESTp who got the INFp on board in the first place.

    Depending on how you see it - - the ESXp is the bodyguard and guardian of the INXp; or the INXp is the navigator for the ESXp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat's old description
    Te types

    ESTjs and ENTjs perceive reality through their knowledge of how the world works - or that the world even works. For them, their environment, their world - both in a real and a figurative way - must be known in its own terms, so as it really is. Te is wary of believing in ideologies or systems even if they already seem to make perfect sense and are consistent: Te is suspicious of this, it feels like self-delusion. The world and the environment must work logically, they must make sense, they must work efficiently, but not through rigid structures: efficiency is measured on results and achieved by knowledge, not primarily by structural logic. Result is what counts.

    At a basic level, reality as perceived by the ENTj and the ESTj can be understood as if they were driving a car. For the ENTj, the efficiency and speed of the journey itself, as well as the final destination, are the primary criteria to optimize the workings of that environment, that situation. As long as ENTjs judge the speed and the expense of the journey to be proceeding as they judge optimal, they are contented. They may stop and "waste time" at their own discretion, however; that is ok as long as the EJ remains in control of what is going on. But just see the ENTj be faced with an unforeseen and open-ended event, like a traffic jam: the ENTj will go mad, since the perception of flow Ni, one of the main criteria for the ENTj to evaluate the final Te efficiency, has just escaped out of his EJ control.

    The ENTj will not be too concerned with whether the car is clean, tidy, or even working at optimal level: as long as the car takes the ENTj to the final goal along a perception of time flow agreeable to the ENTj, those matters do not concern the ENTj much. That is not the the case with the ESTj: it's the opposite. The ESTj's evaluation of Te efficiency of the car journey is defined by a well-running car, a tidy and clean car, an engine doing just the right noise. The efficiency that concerns the ESTj foremost is that of the car; while the efficiency that concerns the ENTj is that of the journey itself. That is not to say that the ESTj does not care about the final goal; but his focus on attaining it will be different from that of the ENTj. And, accordingly, the ENTj's problems with the journey will be related to not focusing enough on the details of car itself, and the ESTj's, to not focusing enough on possible obstacles during the journey.

    Let us change the car into a boat sailing along a river: the ENTj will want to be in control of the journey, to feel that the goal will be reached when the ENTj wishes (but not necessarily according to a pre-established schedule), so the ENTj will, again, focus on the journey itself, possible obstacles, and act to avoid them and compensate for them. The ENTj will want the boat to sail smoothly but its state is important to the ENTj only as a means to an end; the ENTj will tend to neglect the appearance and tidiness of the boat, and will check on its engines but not very enthusiastically; the ENTj is a bit impatient with doing that. The ESTj, though, will pay the closest attention to the state of the boat in its details, and will be inclined to comparatively neglect the flow of the journey itself - or go the opposite way and concentrate on a rigid, pre-fixed schedule.

    For Te, reality - the external environment - must make sense as it is. Te expects reality to change and wants to stay ahead of such changes, steering them in the right direction. That is only possible if reality is understood and can be subjected to a measure of Te's control. To be subjected to a external reality that makes no sense, and can't be steered towards sense, is one of the sources of greatest distress for Te. This includes bureaucratic rules, idiotic authority figures, and the like. Te wants to get the car moving and complete the journey - that is not helped by someone saying that the brakes have to be checked when Te knows that that isn't necessary, or someone with power telling Te to take a particular route because "I want". To reach an optimal situation of sense-making reality, Te may feel the need to assume control over the environment and other people arond; however, control is a means to an end, not the goal.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Ni types perceive reality as a flow that is taking them -- somewhere, but the final destination is less a central part of their perception than the flow itself.
    I disagree with this. I don't think Ni information processing has anything to do with a continuous flow that we are being taken along on.

    Let us imagine a boat sailing gently down a river. Ni types are on an observation deck of the boat. They feel best when they know that the voyage is proceeding at the right speed and along the desired route- however, should there be an unexpected change in the route and a secondary river be taken, the Ni types immediately adjust to that and are now immersing in the flow of the new route. Transition is managed without stress.
    I think this is a stretch. Of course Ni is described as this continuous vision-like function that immerses itself in time by all the classic sources, but sorry, I think that's bunk. I don't pay the least bit of attention to my life rhythm/flow and have the shittiest sense of time in the world. If that means weak Ni, well, what can I say lol?

    The INTp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INTp knows that there are no Te obstacles - the boat's machines are running smoothly, the water level will remain adequate, all the harbors will be open and with the desired supplies. As long as the information on such matters is satisfactory, the INTp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INFp feels that the boat is sailing as desired as long as the INFp knows that there will be no Fe obstacles. The INFp relies on the other people of the boat to assure that the trip will proceed well. As long as those people are well-disposed towards the INFp emotionally, the INFp is contented: the trip will proceed along the optimal flow.

    The INTp is not particularly concerned with the other people on the boat. However, the INTp does need a trusted companion who will deal with them (if necessary) and will help the INTp to actually deal with the obstacles perceived by the INTp. That companion is the ESFp, who probably was also the one to get the INTp on board in the first place.

    The INFp prefers not to deal with the kind of obstacles the INTp regards as vital: the INFp feels that the trip will proceed smoothly as long as the other people on the boat are well disposed. However, not everyone will be well-disposed towards the INFp. To the deal with those, and to the other obstacles that might arise, the INFp has an ally, the ESTp. And, again, probably it was the ESTp who got the INFp on board in the first place.

    Depending on how you see it - - the ESXp is the bodyguard and guardian of the INXp; or the INXp is the navigator for the ESXp.
    I think this entire metaphor was pretty concrete for an Ni ego type. Not trying to spark a flame, but the way you referenced something physical and incorporated such details into it?? I don't know, most Ni peoples' metaphors tend to be more general and abstract; this seemed like you were referencing something quite real as an analogy.

    But I'm sure people are gonna come in and tell me how I don't know shit about Ni lol, so whatever. I just don't think it's inherently about any of the aforementioned things. It's a lot more specific than that. Maybe I'll post more later after there have been some more responses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I disagree with this. I don't think Ni information processing has anything to do with a continuous flow that we are being taken along on.
    Well, when I wrote this I was also thinking of the IP temperament.


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I think this is a stretch. Of course Ni is described as this continuous vision-like function that immerses itself in time by all the classic sources, but sorry, I think that's bunk. I don't pay the least bit of attention to my life rhythm/flow and have the shittiest sense of time in the world. If that means weak Ni, well, what can I say lol?
    Please note that my description of INTp and INFp said nothing, directly or indirectly, about "sense of time". As far as that goes, it's a straw man.


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I think this entire metaphor was pretty concrete for an Ni ego type.
    Of course it was - according to your already-arrived-at view of what a Ni ego type is - whether NiFe, FeNi, NiTe and TeNi. Ever thought that the Te in "TeNi" might, just might, make things different than for a NiFe?

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Not trying to spark a flame, but the way you referenced something physical and incorporated such details into it?? I don't know, most Ni peoples' metaphors tend to be more general and abstract; this seemed like you were referencing something quite real as an analogy.
    Yet that was a metaphor -- which creates an image for the purpose of illustrating a point. I certainly don't think that INFps or INTps are actually imagining themselves on a boat. If you want to insist on seeing that as Si, fine; my own view is that as long as you do, you will never understand what TeNi is.

    Something to think of -- would you agree that Stanley Kubrick was ILI? In that case, he was NiTe, yet his films - which were indeed his films - were also "referencing something quite real".

    I think that as long as you see only the Beta Ni+Fe as the "only Ni", you will be limiting your own understanding. But, whichever you decide.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Diana
    I just like to see Ni as a vector. I also think of Ne as a prism scattering light in all directions, and Ni as one beam.
    Yes, this is a very good metaphor.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Of course it was - according to your already-arrived-at view of what a Ni ego type is - whether NiFe, FeNi, NiTe and TeNi. Ever thought that the Te in "TeNi" might, just might, make things different than for a NiFe?
    Um, Ni is Ni, and Ni metaphors are more abstract than that.

    Yet that was a metaphor -- which creates an image for the purpose of illustrating a point. I certainly don't think that INFps or INTps are actually imagining themselves on a boat. If you want to insist on seeing that as Si, fine; my own view is that as long as you do, you will never understand what TeNi is.
    The metaphor was pretty concrete and detailed.

    I think that as long as you see only the Beta Ni+Fe as the "only Ni", you will be limiting your own understanding. But, whichever you decide.
    It's not about beta NiFe. THAT is a straw man on your part
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    It's late and I'm really tired so I might come back and give it another go tomorrow, but Ni as I experience it:

    It's less like a beam than silvery interlacing threads. I use it more than I 'experience' it. It essentialises information, tags information, creates a web-like tagging system that would, I suppose on a visual level, be somewhat like a silvery mesh of tree roots and forges connections between discrete pieces of information (data input). Perception is like knowledge and Ni is some internal translation device. All new information is taken, tagged and sorted into various interconnected clusters. Everything is interconnected, because you're not dealing with surface qualities but the numerous 'essential concepts' that composed it. Clusters therefore form 'significant concepts': I suppose I see them much like literary tropes - recurring themes, ideas, metaphors, conventions. Identification of tropes = understanding life.

    Or maybe that's my weird brain. But I notice recurring patterns and ideas a lot, because new information gets tagged and identified with old clusters immediately - kind of shuffled into lines. Significant 'clear' things arise out of a mass of information, due to pattern recognition (the tagging system recognises it). Information is being distilled and relocated according to prior patterns (clustering structures). It means I process new information very quickly in a given area because I can pick up on repeated or recurring ideas, or adjustments/changes (how idea A was altered slightly to produce idea B).

    Ok, an action happens. Taking into account the action and its context (information), it decomposes to 5 'factors'. Each factor lights up a particular 'point' in my existing 'web' of knowledge. Connecting the points produces a line/beam/thread. Following that beam, there is only a few possible outcomes and one of them is more likely that the others due to frequency. The more information, the more points like up, the stronger the direction of the beam produced, the more likely I can 'foretell' what's going to happen next on the basis of extrapolating from past patterns.

    ETA: Come to think of it, that 'sorting/tagging' system uses Ti in conjunction with Ni.
    Last edited by unefille; 09-26-2008 at 02:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille
    It's late and I'm really tired so I might come back and give it another go tomorrow, but Ni as I experience it:

    It's less like a beam than silvery interlacing threads. I use it more than I 'experience' it. It essentialises information, tags information, creates a web-like tagging system that would, I suppose on a visual level, be somewhat like a silvery mesh of tree roots and forges connections between discrete pieces of information (data input). Perception is like knowledge and Ni is some internal translation device. All new information is taken, tagged and sorted into various interconnected clusters. Everything is interconnected, because you're not dealing with surface qualities but the numerous 'essential concepts' that composed it. Clusters therefore form 'significant concepts': I suppose I see them much like literary tropes - recurring themes, ideas, metaphors, conventions. Identification of tropes = understanding life.

    Or maybe that's my weird brain. But I notice recurring patterns and ideas a lot, because new information gets tagged and identified with old clusters immediately - kind of shuffled into lines. Significant 'clear' things arise out of a mass of information, due to pattern recognition (the tagging system recognises it). Information is being distilled and relocated according to prior patterns (clustering structures). It means I process new information very quickly in a given area because I can pick up on repeated or recurring ideas, or adjustments/changes (how idea A was altered slightly to produce idea B).

    Ok, an action happens. Taking into account the action and its context (information), it decomposes to 5 'factors'. Each factor lights up a particular 'point' in my existing 'web' of knowledge. Connecting the points produces a line/beam/thread. Following that beam, there is only a few possible outcomes and one of them is more likely that the others due to frequency. The more information, the more points like up, the stronger the direction of the beam produced, the more likely I can 'foretell' what's going to happen next on the basis of extrapolating from past patterns.
    Based on this writing, I don't think you're Ni. It's too detailed and discrete. An Ni type wouldn't describe Ni so thoroughly, basically performing mirror-reflections of the same pattern over and over again, and deconstructing it in the way you did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    Everything is interconnected, because you're not dealing with surface qualities but the numerous 'essential concepts' that composed it. Clusters therefore form 'significant concepts': I suppose I see them much like literary tropes - recurring themes, ideas, metaphors, conventions. Identification of tropes = understanding life.

    Or maybe that's my weird brain. But I notice recurring patterns and ideas a lot, because new information gets tagged and identified with old clusters immediately - kind of shuffled into lines. Significant 'clear' things arise out of a mass of information, due to pattern recognition (the tagging system recognises it). Information is being distilled and relocated according to prior patterns (clustering structures). It means I process new information very quickly in a given area because I can pick up on repeated or recurring ideas, or adjustments/changes (how idea A was altered slightly to produce idea B).

    Ok, an action happens. Taking into account the action and its context (information), it decomposes to 5 'factors'. Each factor lights up a particular 'point' in my existing 'web' of knowledge. Connecting the points produces a line/beam/thread. Following that beam, there is only a few possible outcomes and one of them is more likely that the others due to frequency. The more information, the more points like up, the stronger the direction of the beam produced, the more likely I can 'foretell' what's going to happen next on the basis of extrapolating from past patterns.
    This hits home a great deal... wow.

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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    It's late and I'm really tired so I might come back and give it another go tomorrow, but Ni as I experience it:

    It's less like a beam than silvery interlacing threads. I use it more than I 'experience' it. It essentialises information, tags information, creates a web-like tagging system that would, I suppose on a visual level, be somewhat like a silvery mesh of tree roots and forges connections between discrete pieces of information (data input). Perception is like knowledge and Ni is some internal translation device. All new information is taken, tagged and sorted into various interconnected clusters. Everything is interconnected, because you're not dealing with surface qualities but the numerous 'essential concepts' that composed it. Clusters therefore form 'significant concepts': I suppose I see them much like literary tropes - recurring themes, ideas, metaphors, conventions. Identification of tropes = understanding life.

    Or maybe that's my weird brain. But I notice recurring patterns and ideas a lot, because new information gets tagged and identified with old clusters immediately - kind of shuffled into lines. Significant 'clear' things arise out of a mass of information, due to pattern recognition (the tagging system recognises it). Information is being distilled and relocated according to prior patterns (clustering structures). It means I process new information very quickly in a given area because I can pick up on repeated or recurring ideas, or adjustments/changes (how idea A was altered slightly to produce idea B).

    Ok, an action happens. Taking into account the action and its context (information), it decomposes to 5 'factors'. Each factor lights up a particular 'point' in my existing 'web' of knowledge. Connecting the points produces a line/beam/thread. Following that beam, there is only a few possible outcomes and one of them is more likely that the others due to frequency. The more information, the more points like up, the stronger the direction of the beam produced, the more likely I can 'foretell' what's going to happen next on the basis of extrapolating from past patterns.

    ETA: Come to think of it, that 'sorting/tagging' system uses Ti in conjunction with Ni.

    This is how I would describe Ne. This is how I experience it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    It's late and I'm really tired so I might come back and give it another go tomorrow, but Ni as I experience it:

    It's less like a beam than silvery interlacing threads. I use it more than I 'experience' it. It essentialises information, tags information, creates a web-like tagging system that would, I suppose on a visual level, be somewhat like a silvery mesh of tree roots and forges connections between discrete pieces of information (data input). Perception is like knowledge and Ni is some internal translation device. All new information is taken, tagged and sorted into various interconnected clusters. Everything is interconnected, because you're not dealing with surface qualities but the numerous 'essential concepts' that composed it. Clusters therefore form 'significant concepts': I suppose I see them much like literary tropes - recurring themes, ideas, metaphors, conventions. Identification of tropes = understanding life.

    Or maybe that's my weird brain. But I notice recurring patterns and ideas a lot, because new information gets tagged and identified with old clusters immediately - kind of shuffled into lines. Significant 'clear' things arise out of a mass of information, due to pattern recognition (the tagging system recognises it). Information is being distilled and relocated according to prior patterns (clustering structures). It means I process new information very quickly in a given area because I can pick up on repeated or recurring ideas, or adjustments/changes (how idea A was altered slightly to produce idea B).

    Ok, an action happens. Taking into account the action and its context (information), it decomposes to 5 'factors'. Each factor lights up a particular 'point' in my existing 'web' of knowledge. Connecting the points produces a line/beam/thread. Following that beam, there is only a few possible outcomes and one of them is more likely that the others due to frequency. The more information, the more points like up, the stronger the direction of the beam produced, the more likely I can 'foretell' what's going to happen next on the basis of extrapolating from past patterns.

    ETA: Come to think of it, that 'sorting/tagging' system uses Ti in conjunction with Ni.
    You realized you contradicted yourself? At the beginning you said it wasn't like a beam, then towards the end you likened it to a beam. But onto the important shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by geocities jung Ne functional description page
    Extraverted iNtuition - Inferring relationships, noticing threads of meaning, and scanning for what could be. Extraverted iNtuiting involves seeing things "as if" with various possible ways of representing reality. Using this process, we can hold many different ideas, thoughts, beliefs, and meanings in our minds at once with the possibility that they are all true. This is like WEAVING THEMES AND "THREADS" TOGETHER. We don't know the weave until a thought thread appears or is drawn out in the interaction with a previous one.
    Yeah, you're not Ne-valuing, lol.
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    It's late and I'm really tired so I might come back and give it another go tomorrow, but Ni as I experience it:

    It's less like a beam than silvery interlacing threads. I use it more than I 'experience' it. It essentialises information, tags information, creates a web-like tagging system that would, I suppose on a visual level, be somewhat like a silvery mesh of tree roots and forges connections between discrete pieces of information (data input). Perception is like knowledge and Ni is some internal translation device. All new information is taken, tagged and sorted into various interconnected clusters. Everything is interconnected, because you're not dealing with surface qualities but the numerous 'essential concepts' that composed it. Clusters therefore form 'significant concepts': I suppose I see them much like literary tropes - recurring themes, ideas, metaphors, conventions. Identification of tropes = understanding life.

    Or maybe that's my weird brain. But I notice recurring patterns and ideas a lot, because new information gets tagged and identified with old clusters immediately - kind of shuffled into lines. Significant 'clear' things arise out of a mass of information, due to pattern recognition (the tagging system recognises it). Information is being distilled and relocated according to prior patterns (clustering structures). It means I process new information very quickly in a given area because I can pick up on repeated or recurring ideas, or adjustments/changes (how idea A was altered slightly to produce idea B).

    Ok, an action happens. Taking into account the action and its context (information), it decomposes to 5 'factors'. Each factor lights up a particular 'point' in my existing 'web' of knowledge. Connecting the points produces a line/beam/thread. Following that beam, there is only a few possible outcomes and one of them is more likely that the others due to frequency. The more information, the more points like up, the stronger the direction of the beam produced, the more likely I can 'foretell' what's going to happen next on the basis of extrapolating from past patterns.

    ETA: Come to think of it, that 'sorting/tagging' system uses Ti in conjunction with Ni.
    That's interesting. Ni as patterns... in that case Ne has nothing directly to do with patterns then. I guess all of these patterns are acting independently of each other, or are they changing each other's respective courses?

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Um, Ni is Ni, and Ni metaphors are more abstract than that.
    In other words, another reiteration of "Ni is just the precise way I understand it and anything else is wrong, by definition".


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    The metaphor was pretty concrete and detailed.
    Same point as above.


    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    It's not about beta NiFe. THAT is a straw man on your part
    Not at all. Again, are you saying that functions - any function - are not influenced by the blocks? That there is no difference between Fe+Ni and Fe+Si; between Fi+Ne ad Fi+Se; and of course, between Ni+Fe and Ni+Te?

    If you think that makes little or no difference - which would make sense according to your "Ni is Ni" statement - then we have very fundamental differences with socionics in general. And if you think that yes, the functions are indeed different according to their blocks, then it's not clear to me how you see the difference between Ni+Fe and Ni+Te.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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