Last edited by xyz; 09-25-2008 at 03:53 PM. Reason: Fucking freudian slips.
"Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."
- Voltaire
That sounds pretty to me. If you are more certain about the way you feel about things than yourself that indicates extroverted judging. I think that the important point is not that you cannot see how you fit into the world, but that you are considering how the world makes you seem relative to it and what you must do to fit in (where you are more confident in the world than yourself). This insecurity probably serves as a drive for examining yourself in the context of the world, which is . FWIW I have never seen you exhibit or valuing behavior.
This is pretty good evidence for valuing. Could you elaborate?Originally Posted by MimosaPudica
4w3-5w6-8w7
First you should compare these two descriptions of leading and leading from Rick's site:
http://www.socionics.us/theory/be.shtml
http://www.socionics.us/theory/bi.shtml
That will enable you to decide whether or not you are EIE or IEE. If you find a perfect fit, you are most likely one of those two types.
Then you should compare the socionic descriptions of the differences between the club of NT Researchers and the club of NF Humanitarians, for example at Lytov's site http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/index.html
You should also read David Keirsey's descriptions of the differences betweeen NT Rationals and NF Idealists, which is the exact same divide as the one in Socionics. You can also find very similar (perhaps even better ones) of these differences on MBTI sites.
That will enable you to decide for sure whether you are an NT or an NF.
And finally you should study the four dichotomies once again. You should try to dig into their essences to confirm whether you are an Extravert or an Introvert and whether you are a rational J type or an irrational P type.
If you do all these things, you will definitely know for sure which type you are. It's not that difficult really.
I only said that I have not seen it, but it is probably b/c we have not interacted enough. The statement you described is confusing b/c it implies self-perception, but it could be b/c you are trying to convey what you have perceived about yourself. However I would expect someone who is -valuing to be more certain/decisive with regard to themselves and their behaviors, such as 'I like to be hyperactive' rather than 'I notice hyperactivity in me'. It is as though you are comparing yourself to hyperactivity rather than choosing to be hyperactive.
You said you're a 1? I'd say this sounds more 9'ish (possibly also 2 or 6).Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
4w3-5w6-8w7
It was just an example. BTW you sound more like a 3 than a 1 from this description and what you said about feeling like you needing to please people, being more confident in the world than yourself, and having to continuously search for a balance between your wants with those of others. A 1 probably would not change very much even for a special occasion.
I agree that a 1 wouldn't be like this, but I don't think it makes 3 the most likely type. 2's are compliant to the social norms they believe are expected of them; 6's are compliant to their supporters; 9's try to balance their needs with those of others. Those three types are all more likely than 3. The 3 cares about being admired and puts on a mask, but it isn't to take care of others needs or please them, really.Originally Posted by Huitzilopochtli
4w3-5w6-8w7
My personal impression has always been EIE, fwiw.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I think being Fe dominant can easily account for just about anyone's perception of what "irrational" means in Socionics types. There are some very specific elements of being an irrational dominant type that do not apply to Fe dominants (as rationals), but most of the things that people associate with irrationality are very easily attributable to Fe, such as being impulsive, acting on instinct, moodiness, a distaste for perceived monotony, and having a taste for novelty and variety in experience, among other things.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
MP, in regards to your attunement to possibilities and hidden connections between things, does it tend to be oriented more externally towards correlating and synthesizing all the parts to establish a whole, or more based internally, beginning with a subjectively-generated holistic sense of what something 'is' and moving out from there?
4w3-5w6-8w7
EhOriginally Posted by Gilly
4w3-5w6-8w7
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
In that case you know that have some serious work to do, because you don't understand the functions yet. Of course there is no point in trying to determine which functions you are using before you understand what they refer to.
So we have established that you are an NF type and not an NT.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Me too.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
If I met you in real life, I would be able to tell you for sure which it is, but based on what you say here we know the truth anyway.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
That phenomenon is much more common in E types than in I types. It is probably the influence of your intuition that makes it somewhat harder for you to see clearly that you are an extraverted type. You are most likely an E type, but study the dichotomies until you are certain which it is. View the problem from every angle you can think of, but don't brainwash yourself along the way.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
So IEE is still your most likely type. The case for IEE is much, much stronger than for any of the other possible types.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
This is just a very quick reply, but I think everything you mentioned about pleasing your father sounded much more 9 like than 3. Whilst it can be said (rather reductively) that 3s seek approval from other people, it's never as direct as listening to the demands of others and then seeking to please them. The 3 is quite a narcissistic type and to the extent that you 'achieve' for 'others', it is done indirectly - you're not responding to what they actually want form you, but rather what you yourself think they should want from you. In other words, what guides your actions is not an overt concern with other people's pleasures, wants or desires, but your own interpretation of what the world around you values.
Your interaction style, where you actively seek various opinions and different viewpoints, acting as an accommodating medium for the disparate perspectives that you gather also seems like a very 9 approach to things. Even if facile, you seem to have a 9ish investment in real consensus, and you engage everyone's viewpoints and seem to assign them equal value.
It's possible that you might have 3/4 in your trifix, but I think your primary type is 9 with a strong 1 wing.
()
3w4-1w2-5w4 sx/sp
Material from some site:
Enneagram Type Three (the Achiever) with Enneagram Type Nine (the Peacemaker)
What Each Type Brings to the Relationship
This is a fairly common pairing. Nines bring enormous support, encouragement, and a sense of pride in the Three's accomplishments. Threes can feel that with the Nine behind them, they are able to be themselves, explore their potential, and become the best mate, friend, or professional that they can be. Threes can help Nines to properly value themselves, to have more self-respect, and to invest in their own development. Nines can help Threes relax and find enjoyment in simple things—Nines give them permission to not drive themselves so much. Both types also want to avoid conflicts and to put a positive spin on things—Nines are genuinely optimistic and look on the bright side, while Threes focus on being positive and hopeful, and are careful to not let people see them being down or depressed. Both types are sociable, idealistic, caring for children, animals, and the underdog. Both are usually hard working and want to achieve a degree of material success that will enable them to take care of others in a kind of extended family where everyone would be safe, comfortable, and thriving. They both want a pleasant, aesthetically pleasing home.
To this mix, Threes bring energy, personal ambition, flexibility, the ability to set and achieve long term goals, and efficiency. Threes energize Nines and bring change and excitement to the relationship. Nines bring a feeling of safety and steadiness, the assurance that the Three is loved for themselves and not just for their achievements, and the feeling of not being judged or evaluated at every moment. Threes feel that they can let down their hair and really be themselves with Nines who accept them just as they are. The sensuality of the Nine and the attractiveness of the Three can meet in a couple highly attracted to each other and attached by physical passion. In other Three-and-Nine couples, the need for comfort and security may be the main source of attachment and the pleasure they get from each other.
Potential Trouble Spots or Issues
The Three/Nine couple can almost be a case of "too much of a good thing." Because both types are attracted to keeping the positive values in their lives alive—and there can be so much attachment to comfort and stability in their world—that it becomes difficult to question the status quo and the routines that they get into. Neither wants to bring up conflicts that they have with the other. Nines are more likely not to want to talk about whatever is bothering them for fear of further endangering the relationship. But Threes also do not want to express their complaints because doing so will risk rejection and may also expose the fragility or even the falseness of their relationship. Nines feel that it is better not to say anything and to let things work out on their own, if that is at all possible. If Threes are heavily invested in having a "perfect marriage" to the outside world, it will be difficult to talk about their unhappiness in the relationship or the frustrations they are feeling.
Often the relationship will continue for a while as if nothing is wrong-even if it is essentially over. Eventually, however, Threes begin to feel unseen and unappreciated, and that the Nine is not really there for them—not really present to the relationship. The Nine may be an excellent provider in a material sense, but under stress, may begin to become emotionally absent. Feeling abandoned or rejected usually makes Threes become depressed, although often they do not realize this since they can get quite out of touch with their emotions. Threes can feel that Nines are stifling them, whereas Nines can feel that Threes are too demanding and are "spoiled." Sometimes a crisis, an affair, or some other major life challenge brings the deterioration of the relationship into awareness. They may go through cycles of breaking up and getting back together, although if the underlying problems are not resolved, the real feelings and frustrations continue and will eventually undermine the relationship.
Are you a fucking moron or what? Can't you draw any conclusions of your own? You should focus on and compare the described behaviours and attitudes of each type. They are fairly well and correctly described in this description, and the essential differences between 3s and 9s come to light. If you can't see that you are blind and stupid, and it would be a waste of time to try to help you find your type.
(Ethical types are often really bad at logical reasoning, that's just a fact.)
If you score highly on a 4, you've been typed in person as a 4, sounds above you may have some sort of identity related 4 issue, why are you not a 4?
Irony has no place in these discussions, if you want them to be serious instead of the extremely low-level chit-chats that is the only kind of discussions the majority of people are capable of having.
And you are proving one of my points. You are not good at logical reasoning, and your judgment is bad as well. How can you not see the obvious differences between 3s and 9s and determine for sure which type you are not? That's insane.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Every 3 is extraverted. Their typical temperament is EP. It's all about surface for them. They are the opposite of a deep thinker. Prototype is ESTp/ESFp.
Every 9 is introverted. Every 9 has an IP temperament, and a typical 9 has always Fe in the ego block. Prototype is ISFp.
Why only "probably"? Why can't you tell for sure? Why are you not 100 % certain that you are not a 3 then? You should be if you can see the differences as you say.
Irrelevant. You should not focus on details, you should focus on the overall picture. Why is that so difficult for people?Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
That's pretty much plain bullshit. If you are a 9 you don't have an E3 mask. Stop thinking like an idiot.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
More bullshit. You should not try to determine your inner fixations. That's just crappy thinking. You should determine your type first, and only after you have done that you can start to discover what your fixations are. You are not in a position to determine your fixations, because you don't understand what they mean.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Irrelevant bullshit again. You should not focus on what you are like right now. You should focus on what you have been like for all your life, most of the time, when you are typically and naturally yourself.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
It is not an inconsistency in behaviour, it is an inability to focus on what is relevant and an inability to draw the correct conclusions from the evidence.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
No, you don't. You don't know yourself at all. If you did, you would know your type by now.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Bullshit. You can't hide what you really are, not to a competent socionist anyway.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Who cares? That's totally irrelevant information. If you know yourself so well, you can disregard your mask and concentrate on what you really are. So stop talking about your persona.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
No one is interested in your mask. We are interested in your type. You should be too.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Bad idea. What's the point of letting them get trapped in delusions when you know the truth? This is not funny. If you know for a fact that you are not a 3, then you should explain clearly and distinctly why you are not a 3 and state it as a fact. People's opinions are totally irrelevant here. You are withholding the real truth with that kind of behaviour. I don't like it.
You see through your mask. So don't waste my time with talk about your mask. It is totally irrelevant and should be dismissed as such.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Don't flatter yourself. You don't know your type, so you don't have a say in this matter.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
So you know that you have an IP temperament now? That means that you know that you are not an ENFp or some other non-IP type.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
No. There is no inconsistency. There is only a bunch of people incompetent at typing. You cannot trust your friends on this. They are totally clueless.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Irrelevant. People have the strangest misconceptions of other people, that's a very normal pattern. Most people cannot describe other people objectively and accurately. You must know the types, and neither you nor your friends do that.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
You don't understand the difference between extraversion and introversion yet. When you do, you have found your type.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
If I met you in real life I would. Over the Internet I have to rely on your descriptions of yourself, and they must be logically consistent.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Correct. But if you had listened more to me in the first place, you would have known immediately that you can't be an IEE E1w9. You would never have typed yourself as such type. It's an impossible constellation, and I told you so. But you, like so many others, insisted on your prejudices, you insisted on having the right to your own opinion despite the fact that I knew that you were wrong.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
You haven't studied the types enough, and yet you are arrogant enough to think that you are right. Such an attitude is wrong and extremely irritating to me and other people who are so much more competent at typing correctly.
The descriptions are not perfect but they are good enough -- if you understand the types.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Maybe not a real type description, but rather bombarding you with information that comes to my mind about these kind of people.
IEE: know how to play people, verbally strong, evolved language, large verbal dictionary. really charming personality. Can react really emotionally if things don't go as they like. Takes things personally. Likes writing with exaggareted visual words e.g.: She wore a once pearly white dress which had gotten a depressed grey tone blended with chocolate brown mud splatters.
ILE: prone to proving he's smarter then others (one upmanship). likes computers a lot, likes programming. likes discussions. Has extremely many ideas to solve things, make fun of things, do things. Usually slightly nerdy.
IEI: nearly all are natural born poets. They feel situations, environments and know what will happen. They are usually very inert, or lazy, although they sometimes do there best to adapt.
In contrary to IEE, who's full with energy, always and everywhere.
Last edited by Jarno; 10-09-2008 at 12:53 PM.
If the difference in how well the descriptions describe you is that obvious, honestly, I wouldn't look any further, except to study the functions for your own personal understanding. However that kind of gap in your tendency to relate to a description IS significant.
Don't let temperament get in your way; it is an incomplete, somewhat generalized picture of what it attempts to describe: leading functions. If you understand your leading function and identify with it, then temperaments are essentially useless.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Oke just a random test that comes to my mind. See which fits you best.
You are sitting with a group of +/- 10 people around a large table. The people then usually can easely be divided in two types.
Extraverts:
The people who take care of the talking, although inconspicuously, they start/choose the subjects. They sometimes can be loud or laugh out loud, since they uncounsciously need attention. When these people are not around, then there is little talking.
Introverts:
They like it when some extraverts are present at the table, because they like someone else to start with a subject. So they can listen and respond. If extraverts aren't at the table, these people still do talk, but usually only to their neighbour. These people don't like to draw to much attention on them, especially not with large groups like 10 people.
Another less accurate difference: In case of free choice, Introverts tend to sit at the end / side of the table, Extraverts prefer the middle.
Which fits your style?
I had a sort of lunch break at work in my mind. Then we usually are obliged to sit with 8 to 10 people. It's not all night, just half an hour.
But I read some small hints in your respons that would point more toward introversion then extraversion. This could become interesting...
All the bits of information help. I'm starting to think you're an IEI althoug I'm a bit reserved in that opinion since you started out typing yourself as an Extravert.
Ethical types are always people orientated, which make it somewhat more difficult to separate an introvert from an extravert.
I'll post again if some new useful questions come to my mind.
All NFs are strong in Ne and Ni, (and Fe and Fi) so if your'e looking at those IEs it might not be as clear to you as if you look at the functions that are weak. Do you prefer Si or Se? Ti or Te? Try considering those rather than your strong functions and see if things get clearer.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Good. This is a perfect example of the kind of indisputable facts that people just have to accept (and that includes you). It's a starting point, it's a reference point, and it should funciton like an axiom. No one is allowed to dispute it -- unless you start to contradict yourself in the future by saying things that are incompatible with that statement. Now you have to take the consequences of the fact that you know that you are not a 3.
Stop speculating. Collect more indisputable facts instead.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Stop speculating about which Enneagram type you are. Exclude the impossible ones instead.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Good. Keep studying, stop speculating. Try to collect as many indisputable facts about yourself and your possible type(s) as you can. A good typing process is characterized by eliminations of alternatives, not by reaching out for the most seemingly correct option in the moment.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
If you can say whatever, you should say nothing. You should state what you know with 100 % certainty that you are not, not what you could be. In the end you will be left with only one alternative, and that will be your correct type.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
No, no, no, definitely no. The type descriptions are correct, but until you have compared them with real people out in the world and seen exactly how they fit, you don't really understand them. And, basically, you have to understand all the types before you can understand one of them. But to start focusing on internal processes and functions is much, much worse. If you do that you will be lost and a prey to the eager brainwashers.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Okay, all I am asking is that you refuse to believe what the idiots on this forum are saying and that you study, study, study. And that you don't form definite opinions on anything until you understand them correctly. I am tired of being right all the time. It's frustrating to see that people tend to agree with me in the end, but that their journey to insight is so full of brainwashing, silly mistakes, misunderstandings, etc.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
Good. Keep that attitude. Don't let yourself be brainwashed. Keep an open mind until you really understand and know for sure that you are right.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica
You also have to have the descriptions in order to understand the types. So they are not useless. You should study them all, you should try to really understand the four dichotomies, you should read articles about biological differences between the types and between for example extraverts and introverts. There is so much material to study that you don't know exists. All these things are connected to life philosophies, life attitudes, values, behaviours, diseases, personality disorders, colour preferences, styles of clothing, art preferences, you name it.Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica