INTjs / LIIs : What is Ne like for you?

[diljs]

Similar to the ILE post, what is creative Ne like for you guys?

[jason_m]

Ne essentially represents the breakthroughs in my thought process, whereas Ti takes on the role of expanding my knowledge in smaller increments or helping me to formulate the leaps I make.

Jason

[Froody Blue Gem]

It is a big part of my life, making connections, and spawning ideas as a whole. It's a big part of how xIIs operate as a whole, but plays second fiddle to the base function when it comes down to how we operate. When conversing with other people, my mind jumps to something that reminds me of something else. It might be something someone else said, a quote from a TV show, something that I read in a book.

And one connection like that leads to more, and it multiplies. To the average onlooker, it's hard to know how I got from point A to point B. It's also an area where my creativity for projects comes in. Ji is the basis of where we take in the world. Either sifting through information (or in the case of fi, ethics, how it connects to the values and ethics of others, values, etc.) but ne works in tandem with our base function on a secondary level. It may go into how I relate to other people. It also plays a role in my inner world as a whole, and gets fed by the dots that connect.

[consentingadult]

I am neither LII nor EII, but I already see some meaningless explanations popping up, so I'll share my vision on the nature of Ne in both:

To put it metaphorically: The Ne in IEEs and ILEs perceives reality as a multiverse of universes, where each universe stands for a phenomenon that exists in its own right and in comparative freedom from other phenomena. For EIIs and LIIs, with their emphasis on Fi and Ti respectively, there is only one universe, which is made up of interrelated phenomena. Thus, for Ne-base types, an Ne-possibility is a self-realization of a phenomenon, whereas for Ne-creatives, an Ne-possibility boils down to an optimal adjustment to the system.

https://mavericksocionics.blogspot.c...hat-is-ne.html

[ouronis]

The raw Ne gets tempered a lot by the constraints of the real world. It sort of skips completely over that normally and asks "what would be good?" or "what would be ideal?". And you can take lessons from that but you can never use them fully. You're sort of instantly in tune with the problems in a situation because there's always a nagging sense of, well, we could be way up there instead of stuck down here.

[FreelancePoliceman]

I'm more conscious of it than Ti. It helps to drive me to read broadly, keep diverse interests, and generate mental frameworks for understanding things. I enjoy arguing, which I suppose Ne both encourages and helps me with, and I feel it tends to help give me unique perspective on certain topics. On the other hand it also gives me I feel more or less constantly a fear of stagnation, or of wasting my time. The possibility of spending my life in a small town working a shitty job all my life terrifies me. On a smaller scale, I can often feel bored with subjects I was previously interested in after a few months, feeling like I've exhausted anything worth integrating.

[Rebelondeck]

I can easily see all kinds of patterns and trends in information; yet I will overlook a fact that's directly in front of my nose. I can assemble and disassemble complex equipment but have an overly difficult time finding the object that I just dropped. I can recall the forest in great detail but don't remember a single tree.

a.k.a. I/O

[BasicallyGod]

The ability to focus on an object as if seen through X-ray vision, divorced from its context and released from all attachments, shown in a more pristine (i.e. platonic) form than its actual self. this includes the ability to rotate the object in mind and gradually change its features, actions, state and orientation.

now how does this relate to the "eureka" sensation associated with Ne... the key factor here is that you don't reach this X-ray vision state without effort. Ne is a Creating function in LII, so it delivers the goods only after intense focus. going from having the separate Ti principles that define an object to understanding it with a sense of holism... that's where the spark of Ne comes in, with all dopamine rush effects associated with it.

[Jo Lande]

If I might add something, an INTj filters Ne through the lens of Ti, right? Ne acts under the mindset of "what-ifs", whereas Ti analyzes those what-ifs to decide what is best. So, if I want to buy a laptop and want the best one for the cheapest price. Which to choose? More power for more expense or less power for less expense? What if there is another option? What if I make the wrong choice? That is how I imagine Ti-Ne operates and why I think INTjs go through analysis paralysis. We see so many opportunities and have a hard time deciding on what is best. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[Lord Panda]

When I have one line of thought, I immediately look for ones that connect to it. To me, it's almost like a stand alone idea is completely worthless on its own. It has to fit into this larger network or it's simply not interesting, not worth pursuing. So I have this web of ideas that I'm constantly expanding. It gives me directions to go in. My behavior is also really eccentric but that might just be a personal quirk than anything else.

If I might add something, an INTj filters Ne through the lens of Ti, right? Ne acts under the mindset of "what-ifs", whereas Ti analyzes those what-ifs to decide what is best. So, if I want to buy a laptop and want the best one for the cheapest price. Which to choose? More power for more expense or less power for less expense? What if there is another option? What if I make the wrong choice? That is how I imagine Ti-Ne operates and why I think INTjs go through analysis paralysis. We see so many opportunities and have a hard time deciding on what is best. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

This actually sounds more like Te, to me. Not saying I doubt your type, but this is more of an example of Te, since it's about optimizing the price. I personally don't struggle with analysis paralysis. You see, electronic equipment is all about marketing things in a constructive manner. The big tech companies specifically make their money by designing devices that are intended to break down and be outdated in a few years so you'll keep coming back and buying more. Imo, nothing is more symbolic of capitalist consumerism than the laptop. So in reality which one ever you buy doesn't matter. All you're doing is putting a hole in your own pocket. Which is why I found a creative work around a few years ago. I specifically look for second hand laptops that are being sold by stores that get them from offices. Big corporations always buy laptops for their employees to use and then later sell them when they're outdated/ not required anymore. These laptops are great because they've only been used for work settings so there's little wear and tear. Usually they will have some strange feature like having the camera removed for security purposes. But this is the best way to get laptops, imo. Idk if it's ignoring Te, but I really don't care about maximizing the price of something. The most I'll have is a list of features to look for. This is how Ne works for me.

[Jo Lande]

When I have one line of thought, I immediately look for ones that connect to it. To me, it's almost like a stand alone idea is completely worthless on its own. It has to fit into this larger network or it's simply not interesting, not worth pursuing. So I have this web of ideas that I'm constantly expanding. It gives me directions to go in. My behavior is also really eccentric but that might just be a personal quirk than anything else. This actually sounds more like Te, to me. Not saying I doubt your type, but this is more of an example of Te, since it's about optimizing the price. I personally don't struggle with analysis paralysis. You see, electronic equipment is all about marketing things in a constructive manner. The big tech companies specifically make their money by designing devices that are intended to break down and be outdated in a few years so you'll keep coming back and buying more. Imo, nothing is more symbolic of capitalist consumerism than the laptop. So in reality which one ever you buy doesn't matter. All you're doing is putting a hole in your own pocket. Which is why I found a creative work around a few years ago. I specifically look for second hand laptops that are being sold by stores that get them from offices. Big corporations always buy laptops for their employees to use and then later sell them when they're outdated/ not required anymore. These laptops are great because they've only been used for work settings so there's little wear and tear. Usually they will have some strange feature like having the camera removed for security purposes. But this is the best way to get laptops, imo. Idk if it's ignoring Te, but I really don't care about maximizing the price of something. The most I'll have is a list of features to look for. This is how Ne works for me.

Ah, thank you for explaining. Guess I still have a lot to learn. Maybe it is because I love tech so much that I tend to obsess over features and such. I agree that laptops can be more a money-making scheme. You could say I fawn over and hoard anything novel just for the sake of it, but I also have regrets afterwards if I spend too much. I don't know if that has to do with cognitive functions or is it just me, but that is how I feel sometimes. I will try to be more careful before jumping to conclusions about functions. I don't want to confuse anyone.

[BasicallyGod]

if you've ever built a mathematical model or a computational simulation* of some kind, you will understand how the Ti and Ne relate. you can't have a model without principles and you can't experience a simulation (much like that of Ne's holistic** intuitive view) until you've established the rules of how the dynamics proceed. there are always boundaries that separate the intended functioning of the model from its unintended complement. but once the rules are in place, the simulation takes on a life of its own and grants you perceptual insights that you couldn't read from the initial definitions. a tangible world is given shape, greater than the sum of its definitional parts, more grandiose and beautiful than any of your statements on paper, capable of surprising you as its creator.

so in one major respect, Ne under the control of Ti greatly differs from Ni, or even from Ne that acts of its own accord. the perspective TiNe offers is a very coherent one with stable confines; a world in which there is clear separation between the yes'es and no's of the matter. not just some chaotic nonsense perspective where images blend into each other from one to the next. the rules can be completely fictive, even a network of utter lies, but the whole package is coherent, with a certain predictable rhythm to it that reverberates as its orientations and positional states are explored. and yet, the Ne is a standalone experience. It no longer needs to be expressed in words to be appreciated.

so when you say "we see so many opportunities etc" that is actually not what we do when the end state of Ne is reached. you're describing the start of the process, not its conclusion. and even during this stage, we color within the lines of Ti. at the same time, though, we ARE Ne types, so the sensation of dissonance never quite goes away. it culminates in awareness of how the representation of an object in our minds is never quite identical to the ungraspable, unattainable noumenon. or to a personal project's ultimate platonic form, its prospective perfected evolution.

a problem with the end-state of Ne (a relative notion, as I alluded to) is that it is a very fagile. debunk one of the principles and the entire model goes into a state of superposition. the Ne is still there but it no longer has Ti's closure on every side. some dimensions of the image start fluctuating wildly and other ones that weren't even initially targeted start following suit, spreading the instability. the resulting cognitive dissonance is experienced as highly unsettling and has to be resolved again through Ti, a lonely process that has to be sat through in solitude, far away from the EP types, especially from Se.

usually though, the core of the Ne percept survives the assault and directs the thinker to new Ti discoveries, the ones required to maintain the integrity of the vision, though often in some accordingly altered form.

* here's an example of such a simulation, I bet just from having the mathematics of spherical geometry explained to you - even if you understood it completely - you wouldn't be able to image what it looks like in a 3D rendering:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yY9GAyJtuJ0

** holism is more commonly associated with Ni, but is actually a general characteristic of perceptive functions. the difference is that Ni is passively holistic, while Ne is actively so, in the sense of after-the-fact of making cognitive effort

[Nobody]

I might be LII. I might not. Or I might be ILI or ILE or possibly even LIE. Or this could just be an NT thing.

I have need to go through all the potential connections between something I'm working on in order to better understand it. So if I'm engineering a solution, I'll devalue Te and spend time thinking about different ways of looking at a problem and how it relates to other things. I'll get more information and ideas and input and form theories and structure an understanding of things. This can apply to market research in buying items or organizing the unknowns of theoretical physics into something that makes cohesive sense to me, even if it may turn out to be wrong or not completely accurate or something I never end up doing anything with. I'll try different ideas and play with them, but not invest too much into their application, at least not until I think I've come up with something simple and practical, but new. Most my projects end up as failures where I realize they are too complicated for me to want to invest in making a reality. I sort of think of Elon Musk as an antithesis to this; he will take up the most complicated time-intensive projects and spend all of his energy to make them work and succeed. I would just find that kind of unfulfilling and unnecessarily tiring; I'd much rather come up with ways to make life easier, pleasing, and more enjoyable (Si mobilizing?). Maybe that is why they are extinguishing pairs.