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    Default ashton's writeup on model X

    here it is:

    Model X

    Ashton & Sarah, from socionix.com, had noticed that the Model-A dual seeking function seemed prominent in all J subtypes, (which for a Ti ENTp is Si), and the hidden agenda function prominent in P subtypes. They drew out a model where each subtype is now regarded as a separate type (a Ne ENTp is a different type from a Ti ENTp).

    In Model X, all of the quadra functions for a type are considered strong, and the non-quadra functions weak. For example, a Ti ENTp will have all four Alpha Quadra functions as strong (Ti Ne Si Fe), and the non-quadra functions (Ni Te Se Fi) as weak. The model lists these strong quadra valued functions first (Mode, Utility, Agenda, Activation), the first two quadra unvalued functions (5,6: Shadow, Occlusion) are weaker and not preferred, while the weakest functions are listed last (7,8: Aversion and Immobilization).

    1st function: Mode – Essentially person’s primary “mode” of looking at reality - the language a type interprets reality with – automatic - This function is always on and constantly aware.

    2nd function: Utility – A function not always on, but instead is used as a tool. The person activates this function himself. It is not always a constant focus of awareness, and is used selectively to assist the mode and/or agenda. While a person does have mastery of this function, the function is used in a narrower range than the agenda, of which the person has a much broader understanding.

    3rd function: Agenda – This is essentially what life is about for a person. It is their central motivation; central tendency in life, the stuff they will pay attention to the most, stuff that gives color to what they do – setting the context for their life. Their understanding of the agenda will really be broad. “If you look at the person\'s actions, thoughts, feelings, desires, etc. in life, you\'ll see an aggregation towards the agenda. It is what colors their life.”-Ashton. The agenda is always constantly aware – always on.

    4th function: Activation – A function that is not always on, and one that must be activated by an outside source, whether by another person, situation, or idea, and something the person can enjoy very much. It lies within a person and is awakened. The person tends to use this function in bursts, is unfocused, and the function is not as “mature” as the other three quadra functions. \"turned on, initiated, activated\" by something else, and it usually comes in bursts and is pretty unfocused.”

    5th function: Shadow – A function that lies underneath the mode and utility - the person can kind of understand it decently, but still usually has to translate information from this function into their own language. This function in essence lies in the shadow of the corresponding focused function. (If shadow function is Te, than Te lies in the shadow of Ti).

    6th function: Occlusion – Similar to the phenomenon of an \"occluded weather front\", where a cold front overtakes a warm front or vise versa, the occlusion basically slips under the radar and doesn’t really get any attention. Essentially this function is occluded by its corresponding focused function (if occlusion function is Ni, then occluded by Ne).

    7th function: Aversion – A function that\'s seen as pretty disgusting, and the person reacts aversely to it. It gives the person a bad taste in their mouth, but they are not immobilized by it. (It’s more like tasting something sour and cringing to it) the function is basically a major turnoff for the person.

    8th function: Immobilization – This is a function where the person becomes paralyzed, and doesn\'t know what to do - it basically just plain \"immobilizes\" them. It that is avoided at all costs and/or countered aggressively with the mode, depending on the subtype. Any type (subtype) with a perceiving function as an agenda will have a counterphobic reaction to their immobilization. Essentially, all P sub J-types (such as Ni ENTj) and all J sub P-types (such as Ti ENTp) will react counterphobically to their immobilization, and J sub J-types (such as Ti INTj) and P sub P-types (such as Ni INTp) will react phobically. With a phobic response, the person will hide from it and hope it goes away, whereas a with a counter-phobic response, the person will come out and directly attack it.

    • Another aspect of Model X is that Judging subtypes tend to get along better with other Judging subtypes and that Perceiving subtypes tend get along better with other Perceiving subtypes (ignoring all other factors). For example, an ENTp-Ti (Ti being a judging function) will tend to get along better with an ISFp-Fe (Fe being another judging function) than with an ISFp-Si (Si being a perceiving function).
    • This idea about inter-subtype relations called for the existence of sub-quadras, or “octants”, such as the Alpha-Judging Octant, and the Alpha-Percieving Octant.
    • Another key principle is that All four quadra functions are strong for each type, whereas Model A had 2 strong valued functions and 2 weak valued functions.
    • Also, it is important to understand the different nature of the utility function versus the agenda function, and that even though the utility function is listed as a strong function in a person’s four letter type (ex: Ti ENTp), they do not have as broad an understanding of the function or as wide a range of use with it as they do their agenda function (Si for a Ti ENTp):

    Ashton described likened it to the following analogy: Take an ISFp-Fe. Let\'s compare their utility function to a hammer (an ISFp-Fe’s utility function is Si., so pretend that an ISFp-Fe’s Si is a hammer. “The person would be very good at using the hammer and banging nails into boards when he needs to, but he doesn\'t really understand hammers that well, it just doesn\'t occur to him and he doesn’t much care. He just bangs stuff when he needs to and he’s good at it. Whereas with a type that has Si as an agenda (Ti ENTp, for example) it would be like having an understanding of the hammer, what it does, how it does it, what it feels like in the hand; feeling the hammer as if it were an extension of your own body, and the person has that sort of one-ness with it.” (original wording, different type and functions substituted)

    32-Subtype Model X Functional Breakdown:

    Alpha Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Ti ENTp: Ti, Ne, Si, Fe, Te, Ni, Se, Fi
    Fe ISFp: Fe, Si, Ne, Ti, Fi, Se, Ni, Te
    Fe ESFj: Fe, Si, Ti, Ne, Se, Fi, Te, Ni
    Ti INTj: Ti, Ne, Fe, Si, Ni, Te, Fi, Se

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Ne ENTp: Ne, Ti, Fe, Si, Te, Ni, Se, Fi
    Si ISFp: Si, Fe, Ti, Ne, Fi, Se, Ni, Te
    Si ESFj: Si, Fe, Ne, Ti, Se, Fi, Te, Ni
    Ne INTj: Ne, Ti, Si, Fe, Ni, Te, Fi, Se

    Beta Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Ti ESTp: Ti, Se, Ni, Fe, Te, Si, Ne, Fi
    Fe INFp: Fe, Ni, Se, Ti, Fi, Ne, Si, Te
    Fe ENFj: Fe, Ni, Ti, Se, Ne, Fi, Te, Si
    Ti ISTj: Ti, Se, Fe, Ni, Si, Te, Fi, Ne

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Se ESTp: Se, Ti, Fe, Ni, Te, Si, Ne, Fi
    Ni INFp: Ni, Fe, Ti, Se, Fi, Ne, Si, Te
    Ni ENFj: Ni, Fe, Se, Ti, Ne, Fi, Te, Si
    Se ISTj: Se, Ti, Ni, Fe, Si, Te, Fi, Ne

    Gamma Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Fi ESFp: Fi, Se, Ni, Te, Fe, Si, Ne, Ti
    Te INTp: Te, Ni, Se, Fi, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
    Te ENTj: Te, Ni, Fi, Se, Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
    Fi ISFj: Fi, Se, Te, Ni, Si, Fe, Ti, Ne

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Se ESFp: Se, Fi, Te, Ni, Fe, Si, Ne, Ti
    Ni INTp: Ni, Te, Fi, Se, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
    Ni ENTj: Ni, Te, Se, Fe, Ne, Ti, Fe, Si
    Se ISFj: Se, Fi, Ni, Te, Si, Fe, Ti, Ne

    Delta Quadra:

    Judging Octant Subtypes:
    Fi ENFp: Fi, Ne, Si, Te, Fe, Ni, Se, Ti
    Te ISTp: Te, Si, Ne, Fi, Ti, Se, Ni, Fe
    Te ESTj: Te, Si, Fi, Ne, Se, Ti, Fe, Ni
    Fi INFj: Fi, Ne, Te, Si, Fe, Ni, Ti, Se

    Perceiving Octant Subtypes:
    Ne ENFp: Ne, Fi, Te, Si, Ti, Ne, Si, Fe
    Si ISTp: Si, Te, Fi, Ne, Ti, Se, Ni, Fe
    Si ESTj: Si, Te, Ne, Fi, Se, Ti, Fe, Ni
    Ne INFj: Ne, Fi, Si, Te, Fe, Ni, Ti, Se

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    In examining Model X, I began to recognize a pattern regarding the relationship between the nature of the mode and agenda functions (1st and 3rd functions on the list above respectively; the functions that are always constantly aware).

    • If you notice, all of the Perceiving TYPES (which includes both subtypes, [ex: ENTp-Ti AND ENTp-Ne] have a split between their mode and agenda functions, where one function is a judging function and the other is a perceiving function. For example, an ENTp-Ti will have a Ti (a judging function) mode and Si (a perceiving function) agenda, and an ENTp-Ne will have a Ne (a perceiving function) mode and an Fe (a judging function) agenda.

    • The Judging TYPES (which includes both subtypes, [ex: ESFj-Fe, AND ESFj-Si) do not have this same split between the mode and agenda functions. Instead, the Mode and Agenda functions are either BOTH Perceiving functions, or BOTH judging functions. For example an ESFj-Fe will have a Fe (a judging function) mode, and a Ti (another judging function) agenda, and an ESFj-Si will have a Si (a perceiving function) mode and a Ne (another perceiving function) agenda.

    This difference between mode/agenda split vs. double hints at a fundamental difference in temperament between Judging TYPES and Perceiving TYPES.

    I continued to think about the nature of each function to try to figure out what this fundamental difference was in terms of breaking each function down to its information elements (as defined at the way beginning of this guide). Sure enough, there existed a pattern and a difference between J and P types in the information elements as well.

    If we look at an ENTp-Ne sub, the person has a Ne (Internal Statics of Objects) mode, and an Fe (Internal Dynamics of Objects) agenda. The ENTp-Ti sub on the other hand has a Ti (External Statics of Fields) mode, and a Si (External Dynamics of Fields) agenda. As you can see from the highlighted words, each subtype (Ne and Ti sub) of this particular perceiving type (ENTp) have either BOTH their mode and agenda functions as object functions, or BOTH their mode and agenda as field functions. So, for all Perceiving Types, the person will have either BOTH their mode and agenda functions as object functions, or BOTH their mode and agenda as field functions

    There is a difference though with Judging types. If we look at a Fe ESFj, the person has a Fe (internal dynamics of objects) and a Ti (internal statics of fields) agenda. The Si ESFj on the other hand has a Si (external dynamics of fields) mode and a Ne (internal statics of objects) agenda. Judging Types will have a split between objects and fields with their mode and agenda functions.

    An image of a street intersection occurred to me, with the mode function being the street the person started on, and the agenda function being the street the person ended up on after passing through the intersection. The street metaphor is illustrated below:



    This diagram illustrates the pattern I discussed in the above paragraphs. In this street analogy, a Perceiving Type (Irrational) will either start on Object Street and Continue on Object Street, or Start on Field Street and Continue on Field Street. All types (Both Perceiving and Judging) go from either a static mode to a dynamic agenda, or a dynamic mode to a static agenda. Contrary to P-types that stay on the same street, if you look at J types, they either start on Object Street and change to Field Street, or start on Field Street and change to Object Street.

    This metaphor illustrates the difference between Judging types and Perceiving types. If you think of the differences between the “cruising through” vs. “stopping and turning” mentalities, each represents a different style of experiencing reality, and it especially yields a different type of temperament for each. Perceiving types (of both subtypes) have the more \"cruising through life\" temperament, and information seems to flow in a more parallel sense for them, since their two main areas of focus are of parallel information elements: 2 fields or 2 objects. Judging types are constantly stopping and turning. There\\'s a deliberateness that comes with that which you\\'ll see in the way J-types move, talk, and act. Even with P sub J types, they will still have the deliberateness, but it\\'ll be more internal. Some may seem irrational and P-ish on the surface, but you\\'ll still be able to detect this deliberateness of the J temperament.

    Carl Jung actually discusses the difference in temperaments of Extraverted and Introverted Rationals (J-types) and Extraverted and Introverted Irrationals (P-types). You can read his descriptions here:

    http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

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    ATTENTION: STEVE IS THE AUTHOR OF THIS POORLY WRITTEN, OUTDATED VERSION OF MODEL X

    02:31] Ashton: yeah it's steve
    [02:31] Ashton: it's stuff he wrote.
    [02:31] strrrng: yes
    [02:31] Ashton: Post and say it's him
    [02:31] Ashton: and that thats um
    [02:31] strrrng: i will
    [02:31] Ashton: horribly written and retarded lol
    [02:31] Ashton: and refers to outdated conceptss.

    Anyway, steve, you're a piece of shit, a rat, a pussy, and deserve the most brutal ass beating possible. All this shit you preach about loyalty and honesty, and look at this. Suck a dick, you coward.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    [02:34] dolphin: oh yeah
    [02:34] dolphin: thats the one
    [02:34] dolphin: i had
    [02:34] dolphin: steve sent me it
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Have Expat cherrypick the info and comment in some derisive tone when Ashton isn't even here to defend himself?
    The thought of bothering to do that did not cross my mind for a second, since from what I've glimpsed of it, it's a purely self-contained description, that is to say, since it makes no reference to real people, real behaviors, even thoughts, etc, it's impossible to "cherrypick the 'info'" except as to its internal consistency, which I would see as a waste of time.

    As for Ashton not "being here to defend himself", as I said elsewhere, in this forum he has no rights of any kind. I know that probably has nothing to do with your criticism of niffweed, but I just thought I might mention it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    QUOTE (Steve;349532)
    Also, if you have a need to discuss that model, why don't you do it at socionix where he can discuss it too and not let it get misconstrued? What are your motives in discussing it here? Do you want people to rally around your dismissals of anything socionix and elicit validation for your write-offs? Or are you afraid that it has credence and you are afraid of people catching onto it, leaving you in the dust?
    Steve, if you want people to "catch onto it" and leave niffweed, myself, or whoever in the dust, you are quite welcome to post, and defend, any version of that model here, whenever you wish. In fact, you have done so; without any objection from anyone.

    And those who choose to prefer that model, or any other, are also welcome to it. I'm not sure why you think that everyone else has the same need for validation of their ideas as you have.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I'm not sure why you think that everyone else has the same need for validation of their ideas as you have.
    roflmao


    ahahahahahahahahahahahaha


    fucking little cunt phobic 6, steve is.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  8. #8
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    Why is it that the people I see on this forum who associate with Ashton have to use so much swearing and attacking in their posts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Because we are all mindless drones who obey warlord Ashton's every militant command? Because we need a channel for all this hate?
    I used to think you were quite a pleasant young woman. I've got to say i've been taken aback by the language that's been used, and you've used here. Maybe you're annoyed, but I can't help thinking that perhaps you speak to people like that IRL also, which somehow I find a little disturbing. Not that i'm your guide to good behaviour or anything! I just wonder if your parents know you speak like that.
    Last edited by Cyclops; 09-17-2008 at 08:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops
    Why is it that the people I see on this forum who associate with Ashton have to use so much swearing and attacking in their posts?
    motherfuck, I'm gonna kill steve, damn I'm a gangsta, step to me nigga, you suckafuck fool. Beta revolution ftw nigga.

    Fuck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    And if you want to know where I got it from, I got it straight from Ashton about 4 days ago. He sent it all to me via aim. His aim is Dynamicism. He told me to send it to a bunch of people through the16types.
    Right, gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    I sent Jxrtes the model.
    Ok.

    Quote Originally Posted by jxrtes View Post
    Steve didn't do this. I sent niffweed the model.
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    b) it's an outdated (and shitty) model thanks to steve's additions
    c) steve wrote it up and is in cahoots with niffweed
    Uhhh --

    But what about


    Quote Originally Posted by hitta View Post
    And if you want to know where I got it from, I got it straight from Ashton about 4 days ago. He sent it all to me via aim. His aim is Dynamicism. He told me to send it to a bunch of people through the16types.
    The plot thickens.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    lol @ Expat getting all devious and shit.

    I think either dolphin sent it to Jem, and Jem sent it to niffweed, for whatever reason; or, Steve sent it to jrxtes, and jrxtes sent it to niffweed, for whatever reason.

    I don't particularly care about the details. In a way, I'm glad it got publicized - although it wasn't the most refined, accurate depiction. At least people can't bitch about being in the dark on it anymore.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    8th function: Immobilization – This is a function where the person becomes paralyzed, and doesn\'t know what to do - it basically just plain "immobilizes" them. It that is avoided at all costs and/or countered aggressively with the mode, depending on the subtype. Any type (subtype) with a perceiving function as an agenda will have a counterphobic reaction to their immobilization. Essentially, all P sub J-types (such as Ni ENTj) and all J sub P-types (such as Ti ENTp) will react counterphobically to their immobilization, and J sub J-types (such as Ti INTj) and P sub P-types (such as Ni INTp) will react phobically. With a phobic response, the person will hide from it and hope it goes away, whereas a with a counter-phobic response, the person will come out and directly attack it.
    Ah, so that's why nobody who follows that model wants to be a J-subtype. I have yet to see a true adherent of that model who has typed themselves as J-subtype.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    And the drama continues...

    Jason

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    i thought everyone already knew about this idea

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    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    i thought everyone already knew about this idea
    Xactly

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    I don't think people knew all the details of it. Most just caught debris flying around at socionix or stickam.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX
    ENFj leadership style is a bit cultish as they tend to surround them with people who they guide to fulfill their plans.
    p00
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    Steve didn't do this. Dolphin sent it to me. Strrrng and Dolphin, you both disgust me to a degree that I have no verbal expression for.

    Goodbye.
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem
    Steve didn't do this. Dolphin sent it to me.
    This is absurd. Dolphin is friends with Ashton and uses his model. She would not reveal it. Additionally, when I told her what was going on, she was dumbfounded. Maybe that was because you sent it to niffweed? In that case, fuck you, I hope you die, cunt. Dolphin may have been stupid to show it to you (look no further than the fact that you probably wouldn't be able to understand it properly), but it is even more fucked up to send it to someone whom you know will publicize it. Ugh.

    Strrrng and Dolphin, you both disgust me to a degree that I have no verbal expression for.

    Goodbye.
    Does that mean you want my cock, too?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    And you sent it to niffweed? Is that any better? At the time, this model was the only one I was aware of. I was acting on the information I had. I sent it to you because I thought you were genuinely interested in learning more about it. Then I became aware that there was a more updated version, and consequently used it. If you were really interested in the model for informational purposes, which I doubt, then why wouldn't you inquire for a newer version before you instigated this shit? Why wouldn't you just go over to Socionix, where they're happy to answer questions about it freely? I apologize to Steve if he in fact wasn't the one to reveal this, but that just means all the stuff directed at him goes to you instead. I sent it to a few people a while back who were genuinely interested in learning more about it - 2 people total. My intentions were never for you to employ this stupid "reveal" shit and publicize the thing with the help of niffweed, and I think you damn well know it. strrrng's right - I was stupid to send it to you.
    I don't care what your intentions were. What's gone wrong with you, Dolphin? Why don't you think for yourself any more? Why were you abiding by Ashton's stupid secrecy rules in the first place?
    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
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    I'll give Ashton the benefit of the doubt and same this isn't the complete model X, because if it is Ashton is really dumb.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

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    Quote Originally Posted by hitta
    I'll give Ashton the benefit of the doubt and same this isn't the complete model X, because if it is Ashton is really dumb.
    If you read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that in a pasted portion of an aim convo, Ashton says that not only is this Steve's poor, convoluted writing, but it is an outdated version of the model.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    If you read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that in a pasted portion of an aim convo, Ashton says that not only is this Steve's poor, convoluted writing, but it is an outdated version of the model.
    Which is why I said I would give Ashton the benefit of the doubt.
    Model X Will Save Us!

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    1. Since cold fronts are dense and compact they are more rigid and so can travel much more quickly than warm fronts (this is because they are more centralized, ordered, and easier to manipulate as whole; when convection is more of an issue than conduction, which tends to be the case among air masses, each mass behaves like an independent substance, the two do not mix). When a cold front overtakes a warm front, it pushes beneath the warm air, forcing it into a higher altitude where pressure is lower and the ground is farther away, so that the relative humidity is increased and the air cools causing clouds and precipitation to form, which are usually detectable on Doppler radar. This is why front collisions are so easy to find, and why storms often occur at these locations.

    2. If the mode of a judging type with a perceiving subtype is a perceiving function, then why is it not considered a perceiving type? Identicals with opposite subtypes in this model only share unvalued functions. Ego block similarity is dependent on subtype rather than type, and the Superid is least similar for mirrors with the same subtype or identicals with different subtypes, but seems to become more similar the more two mirrors approach each other or diverge from each other in subtype, with constant displacement or same direction of spectral divergence reducing similarity. This seems to imply some type of polar, rotationally symmetric, and thus periodic function.
    Last edited by Nexus; 09-17-2008 at 05:04 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrxtes
    Steve didn't do this. I sent niffweed the model.
    And how did you manage to get a hold of it?
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And how did you manage to get a hold of it?
    I sent Jxrtes the model.
    Model X Will Save Us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And how did you manage to get a hold of it?
    And if you want to know where I got it from, I got it straight from Ashton about 4 days ago. He sent it all to me via aim. His aim is Dynamicism. He told me to send it to a bunch of people through the16types.
    Model X Will Save Us!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    Personally Expat and I never have had a problem, and if he was really in my conflicting quadra, I don't think communication between him and I would be as tumult-free as it is. The vibe I get from him is one of "making sure everything runs ok and is kept in order" as opposed to a more bronco-like vibe I get from ENTjs.
    He's no bronco, that's for sure.
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    You know I can see myself as -phobic; it scares the hell out of me.

    Like I'm trapped in a dream and I can't get out; I have nightmares about it.

    I used to be somewhat claustrophobic - I wonder if these are in any way related.

    Sometimes I intuit danger during lucid dreams, try to wake up, and get sleep paralysis.
    Last edited by Nexus; 09-22-2008 at 12:35 AM.

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    I thought Steve wasn't going to post here anymore? Is that from an ancient exchange, or a recent one? And why -- oh, why -- -- post it here now, strrrng ? You are one of those people who, as they say in one of the countries I lived in, "get a kick from watching the circus on fire", aren't you?

    Never mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    Personally Expat and I never have had a problem, and if he was really in my conflicting quadra, I don't think communication between him and I would be as tumult-free as it is. The vibe I get from him is one of "making sure everything runs ok and is kept in order" as opposed to a more bronco-like vibe I get from ENTjs.
    He's no bronco, that's for sure.
    To "set it straight", as Steve likes to say, a few points:

    1) I have never had extensive communication with Steve on a one-to-one basis, certainly not beyond the most straight-forward exchange of information.
    2) No matter which "model" one uses, I think it will be hard to prove that communication between any two individuals of two opposing quadras must necessarily have "tumult".
    3) Not sure about Steve's, but the "socionix" typing of Isha (Salawa) is or used to be INFp. If I am ESTj, according to the same logic, it is very odd because we are very good friends and our communications are indeed very "tumult-free". Obviously I don't think I am ESTj or that she is INFp; just showing the internal contradictions.
    4) I have had romantic relationships of some duration and significance with one ESE and a couple of EIEs, none of which was full of "tumult" - one Alpha and a couple of Betas. Now, of course, it is possible to argue that I haven't typed them correctly - but, in that case, no discussion is going to lead anywhere, since I do think I have typed them (and myself) correctly.

    I could go on and on. The above is just meant to address the silly concepts that:

    - communication between individuals of two opposing quadras necessarily lead to tumult - at that superficial level
    - above all, that the very limited communication Steve and I have had would be evidence of anything. I can communicate, politely, with nearly everyone, as long as they don't behave like obvious jerks.

    Also, Steve himself has said something to the effect that "any two healthy individuals should be able to get along" -- and now he makes a point like that? It's just -- daft. Or very opportunistic.

    Moving on.

    I will never understand the logic of Steve's (and maybe some other people's) typings, in as far as, on the one hand, they say it is necessary to go for those long digressions on how one perceives reality - and, on the other hand, go for things like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    The vibe I get from him is one of "making sure everything runs ok and is kept in order" as opposed to a more bronco-like vibe
    Is that a typing criterion? Whether one has or not a "bronco-like vibe"?

    Ok. I will address that.

    First, what a surprise: "making sure everything runs ok and is kept in order". I take issue with the phrasing "order", but the rest is accurate. Yes, one of my drives is to make sure things are working well. Not according to any plan or rules - according to the evidence that they are, indeed, working. Which is a good description of what drives a dominant.

    But, going back to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve
    The vibe I get from him is one of "making sure everything runs ok and is kept in order" as opposed to a more bronco-like vibe I get from ENTjs.
    And why, pray tell, should ENTjs have a "bronco-like vibe"? Should Te dominance lead to a "bronco-like vibe"? Or Ni creative? Or Gamma values? Or anything?

    Should the dual of the ISFj have a "bronco-like vibe"? Why? What need would they have for that? Why would they like it?

    Ah, but "the vibe Steve gets from ENTjs" is that they are "bronco-like". Fine.

    And who are those "ENTjs"? I supppose, people who have the "bronco-like vibe", which is the old "they are like the XXXxs I know", which is nothing beyond the most primitive form of circular thinking.

    Maybe Steve - like some other people who prefer to create their own models before understanding others - should devote some time to considering that maybe, just maybe, the people whom he has included in his, uh, "databank of types' vibes" are not of those types to begin with.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    Is that a typing criterion? Whether one has or not a "bronco-like vibe"?
    roflmaomg

    Ok. I will address that.

    First, what a surprise: "making sure everything runs ok and is kept in order". I take issue with the phrasing "order", but the rest is accurate. Yes, one of my drives is to make sure things are working well. Not according to any plan or rules - according to the evidence that they are, indeed, working. Which is a good description of what drives a dominant.
    Right, makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    And why, pray tell, should ENTjs have a "bronco-like vibe"? Should Te dominance lead to a "bronco-like vibe"? Or Ni creative? Or Gamma values? Or anything?
    I can make a decent guess on his thought process. ENTj's have "Se awareness," Ashton is Ni ENTj with high Se focus and steve's default, gammas and betas love Se and go gung-ho with shit (instead of engulfing one's self in the Si flow), and you don't meet the above criteria. Quite a thinker, lol.

    Should the dual of the ISFj have a "bronco-like vibe"? Why? What need would they have for that? Why would they like it?
    Maybe to engage in Se activities without feeling like their partner is a bitch.

    Ah, but "the vibe Steve gets from ENTjs" is that they are "bronco-like". Fine.
    lol

    Maybe Steve - like some other people who prefer to create their own models before understanding others - should devote some time to considering that maybe, just maybe, the people whom he has included in his, uh, "databank of types' vibes" are not of those types to begin with.
    maybe lol
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I can make a decent guess on his thought process. ENTj's have "Se awareness," Ashton is Ni ENTj with high Se focus and steve's default, gammas and betas love Se and go gung-ho with shit (instead of engulfing one's self in the Si flow), and you don't meet the above criteria. Quite a thinker, lol.



    Maybe to engage in Se activities without feeling like their partner is a bitch.
    If Se - as a quadra value - is defined a priori as "going gung-ho with shit" and "engaging in Se activities", and such activities are as defined by the above, yes.

    The problem is, is that a correct definition of Se as a quadra value - that is to say, that applies to all Betas and Gammas?

    As I mentioned already, in providing a possible explanation as to how you (strrrng) would have Se as dual-seeking function, people with Se in the super-id like being around people with stronger Se; it follows from that that people with Se in ego like being around people with weaker Se (but stronger Ni) who appreciate the strong Se.

    And that is precisely what the Aggressor-Victim interaction is about. It works because both value Se; yet the Aggressor likes being the "top Se" while the Victim likes being with the "top Se".

    And that being so, it makes sense that, in an ENTj-ISFj duality - as in an ENFj-ISTj duality - the ENTj is the one who wants to have someone of stronger Se around him/her - the ISFj.

    But, anyway, I think that none of that is of any relevance to the issue at hand, Steve's (or whoever's) "model X", since, as you said:

    Ashton is Ni ENTj with high Se focus and steve's default
    The whole model is a "reverse engineering" exercise. That is to say, it starts with a "given" - Ashton's, and maybe a few other people's, types - which are not easily explained through model A.

    So, "reverse engineering" is applied to create a new model that fits the given proposition. And the possibility that the given proposition might be wrong is not even considered.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    If Se - as a quadra value - is defined a priori as "going gung-ho with shit" and "engaging in Se activities", and such activities are as defined by the above, yes.

    The problem is, is that a correct definition of Se as a quadra value - that is to say, that applies to all Betas and Gammas?
    I don't think this was his only definition of Se.

    As I mentioned already, in providing a possible explanation as to how you (strrrng) would have Se as dual-seeking function, people with Se in the super-id like being around people with stronger Se; it follows from that that people with Se in ego like being around people with weaker Se (but stronger Ni) who appreciate the strong Se.

    And that is precisely what the Aggressor-Victim interaction is about. It works because both value Se; yet the Aggressor likes being the "top Se" while the Victim likes being with the "top Se".

    And that being so, it makes sense that, in an ENTj-ISFj duality - as in an ENFj-ISTj duality - the ENTj is the one who wants to have someone of stronger Se around him/her - the ISFj.
    Makes sense.

    But, anyway, I think that none of that is of any relevance to the issue at hand, Steve's (or whoever's) "model X", since, as you said:

    The whole model is a "reverse engineering" exercise. That is to say, it starts with a "given" - Ashton's, and maybe a few other people's, types - which are not easily explained through model A.

    So, "reverse engineering" is applied to create a new model that fits the given proposition. And the possibility that the given proposition might be wrong is not even considered.
    I suppose.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    When I met Expat, the first thing he did was trying to hit me with a neanderthal tool. That proves he's Bronco (!) (??)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    "Language is the Rubicon that divides man from beast."

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrxtes
    One goal being to "translate" Te -> NeTi for purposes of better storage and accessibility.

    If I didn't understand Te, I would actively ignore everything that couldn't be translated and reach very incomplete conclusions. If this function was undifferentiated within the psyche, one'd be unable to work with any sort of complexity relevant to it. (eg. a Ti type could never master stock trading, business, science or bother to learn different types of legal systems).
    When the fuck did Te become about trading stocks and business? FYI it's not. And no, just because you can't experience Te directly doesn't mean you can't understand it and translate that type of information into your own words. That's a faulty conclusion.

    Barring the obvious notion that something needing to be translated implies both the existence of, and an awareness of that which needs to be translated.
    If something needs to be translated, it's obvious that a person doesn't experience it directly. If you are aware of something as different from how you naturally do things, that means the thing is different; detection of the absence of one's own preferences means a presence of the opposite. And if you attain an awareness of this opposite, you recognize it as something separate from you, something you don't directly experience but only observe from an outside perspective, and thus translate it into your own language.
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    Hey welcome back!

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    Quote Originally Posted by jrxtes
    Not everything needs to be translated. You're coming from the faulty premise that we absolutely don't understand our non quadra functions... which is true that we don't understand them as completely as the opposing quadra does, but you're taking it way too far in saying that there's absolutely no understanding -- which is both an incorrect premise and conclusion.
    I very clearly did say that you could understand non-quadra functions - just through the lens of your quadra functions, observing them from the outside.
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    Basically you are inherently and inevitably "within" or inside your quadra functions. They are intra-psychic lenses that govern the natural processes of one's information metabolism. The non-valued functions can be studied, mimicked and understood, but only in the form of ideas; one will never be inside their non-valued functions, so to speak. It would be contradictory.
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