Ezra's Enneagram Type

[aestrivex]

brief semantical tidbit: expat several times referred to his blog in the WS. each time i read that i think of wikisocion. only recently has the workshop adopted that as its domain, which i find very confusing. i have acronymized the workshop and wikisocion as WKS and WS on my bookmarks respectively

[Gilly]

EWWWW get the beta yuckies out!!!!!!


see hugs were offered to ME but they were given away to the first person who spoke up!

no loyalty. no devotion. pffffffffffttt....go have your beta hugs in your PMs. sluts

She wants meeeee...

*dundundun*

She wants me soo baaaaad, babe..

Actually she just commented that my hugs were hawt. You will always get my hugs, Kelly, but from now on I guess idolatrie wil be the recipient of my lingus.

[dinki]

6!

[Lotus]

I guess you could justify any E type as a 6.

People also like to use that as an excuse for why they're not a six.

[Khamelion]

gggggggggggggggeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzlol


I made this thread as a joke, because Ezra typed EVERYONE as a 6 of some form. Which in itself is a joke! But somehow I think I get the point behind it. I just thought this would be funny.



But hey a lot of good info came out of this thread. strrrg/Expat/a few interjections from others. good stuff.



one thing though, i want a link to some sort of explanation of counter-phobic and what not. it seems like it only applies to 6's? give meh information!

[strrrng]

I already explained that to expat.

[Khamelion]

I already explained that to expat.

isn't it freaking written somewhere though? as in, where YOU READ it from originally? -_-

[strrrng]

Actually I've never read anything that goes into any real depth about the phobic/counter-phobic dichotomy. It's just something you get a feel for over time, I guess. As previously mentioned, it's not set in stone, so you just gradually begin to recognize the contrasting, fluctuating states.

[Khamelion]

Actually I've never read anything that goes into any real depth about the phobic/counter-phobic dichotomy. It's just something you get a feel for over time, I guess. As previously mentioned, it's not set in stone, so you just gradually begin to recognize the contrasting, fluctuating states.

oh gotcha....i think i have more of a grasp on it now.

[Ezra]

First and foremost (and you probably already know this), the 3's need for validation is more about attention and admiration, due to them being in the heart triad, which essentially deals with narcissistic wounding and an underlying feeling of shame. The 6's form of validation is about security, as they are part of the head triad, which deals with fear and anxiety. The 3 wants validation of their external persona; the 6 wants to feel like there is support and guidance in reality. Secondly, they are both part of the attachment object relations group, which essentially deals with attaching one's self to things perceived as good, helpful or safe. The 3 attaches themselves to things so that their image may be further enhanced and validated; the 6 attaches themselves to things so that the perceived threats can be nullified and security maximized.

I probably shouldn't have used the term "validation," as it can have many meanings.

You could say that the Six requires the fact that they have guidance and/or security as validation that they actually do. So the Six doesn't want personal validation like the Three, but rather a validation that they have security and guidance.

How they'd go about this I don't know.

[Ezra]

one thing though, i want a link to some sort of explanation of counter-phobic and what not. it seems like it only applies to 6's? give meh information!

Someone at EIDB once came up with this idea of "counterpassions" for each of the type. The example of the Eight's was "Austerity". They live in excess. When an Eight notices this, they'll suddenly adopt a Spartan lifestyle, minimising all their needs. Ironically, this in itself is a form of excess. The Six's counterpassion is counterphobia. They life in fear, so they use counterphobia to fight the fear.

[idolatrie]

from strrrng's enneagram thread -

In reality, while I think forcefulness, aggression and impulse are part of the Eight, they certainly don't amount to what an Eight is. To think otherwise would be foolhardy.

Was wondering if you've talked about E8s here or elsewhere before? If you have, could I trouble you for a link?

[strrrng]

I just want to say that I think some people underestimate my understanding of the Eight and the ability to spot Eight tendencies in myself. strrrng, for a long time, you seemed to think that my thinking I was an Eight was due solely to my being loud and aggressive-speaking. Since then you've changed your opinions, but I'm not sure if I had anything to do with it, or if it was just you changing your observations. Expat has said just then that he reckons I think I'm an Eight because of my impulsiveness or something.

In reality, while I think forcefulness, aggression and impulse are part of the Eight, they certainly don't amount to what an Eight is. To think otherwise would be foolhardy.

Then how about you explain why the fuck you are an 8, lol. I can see past the stereotypes, and think I have a decent picture of you, at least in the given context. I want to hear some personal experiences and observations that illustrate the 8 fixations manifesting in you. Until then, I am unfortunately chained to the cp6w7 typing, as it is all that the current evidence leads me to believe.

[Khamelion]

Someone at EIDB once came up with this idea of "counterpassions" for each of the type. The example of the Eight's was "Austerity". They live in excess. When an Eight notices this, they'll suddenly adopt a Spartan lifestyle, minimising all their needs. Ironically, this in itself is a form of excess. The Six's counterpassion is counterphobia. They life in fear, so they use counterphobia to fight the fear.

I see, I see....so what would a Seven's counterpassion be?

[Gilly]

Asceticism, probably.

[Lotus]

[Khamelion]

FUCK THAT SHIT


wth does this have do with anything anyways >_>

[Gilly]

That is fucking COOL. I wanna be a deep sea explorer...

[Lotus]

Gilly you should be a mermaid <3

[Gilly]

Wow I wish. What a life...

[Lotus]

Yeah and so much cooler than the internet.

[Gilly]

For serious...

[Khamelion]

That shit was not cool, it was death.


And he would be a merMAN not merMAID.

[Gilly]

DONT TREAD ON ME, I BE WHO I WANNA BE

How is that picture death?

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Satan]

That's essentially correct. The phobic 6 is more "conscious" of their fear, and thus, acquiesces to it. The counter-phobic 6 suppresses the awareness of their fear and then projects it outward, making it seem as though they don't have it, hence how many counter-phobic 6's can appear like 8's by developing a hard front - which is the exact term Ezra used to describe himself in another thread.

Are you saying that he's all gooey on the inside.

[aestrivex]

I do think I'm a 1, but don't identify totally with the part about rules and procedures. The way I understand it, doing what's right only sometimes has to do with following the correct rules, not always. The idea imo, is about being right to be beyond reproach, but not about following procedure per se. IOW, a 1 will be rule and law-abiding except when the rule or law is wrong. They'll be right outside of the rule, not because of it. Only if following the rules is the way they can be right/upstanding/moral/honorable/whatever will they do so, if the rules are against their personal 'code' they won't follow them. Maybe my understanding of the type is wrong, but it's one reason why I see it as fitting easily with a Fi-leading type, and not just Ti-leading.

the rules are extensibly their own rather subjective idealization of the world, but it seems kind of like 1s are obliged to follow them absolutely to the letter in order. the "rules" are somewhat immutable and "right," regardless of whether the perceived absolute truth content is more Fi-ish or Ti-ish.

either way, i think Ti dominants are a the best fit with 1s.

[strrrng]

I do think I'm a 1, but don't identify totally with the part about rules and procedures. The way I understand it, doing what's right only sometimes has to do with following the correct rules, not always. The idea imo, is about being right to be beyond reproach, but not about following procedure per se. IOW, a 1 will be rule and law-abiding except when the rule or law is wrong. They'll be right outside of the rule, not because of it. Only if following the rules is the way they can be right/upstanding/moral/honorable/whatever will they do so, if the rules are against their personal 'code' they won't follow them. Maybe my understanding of the type is wrong, but it's one reason why I see it as fitting easily with a Fi-leading type, and not just Ti-leading.

Yeah, that makes sense.

And like niffweed said, it's basically their "inner voice" (super ego) that they feel obliged to follow. They already have strong rules and principles built up internally (they are the gut triad type that focuses their control inward), which they try to follow consistently.

[Ezra]

Then how about you explain why the fuck you are an 8, lol. I can see past the stereotypes, and think I have a decent picture of you, at least in the given context. I want to hear some personal experiences and observations that illustrate the 8 fixations manifesting in you. Until then, I am unfortunately chained to the cp6w7 typing, as it is all that the current evidence leads me to believe.

Calm down, homedawg.

I've talked about the basic behaviour of the Eight manifesting itself in me plenty of times before. Some things I haven't discussed, and I'm happy to talk about them now.

When I was a kid in primary school (this is school between 5-11yrs old), I was emotionally fucked over, multiple times, by one kid called Josh. He'd have this push-pull relationship going on with me, and because of his family problems, and because I admired certain aspects of him, he knew he had someone to hang around with. Whenever I tried to express any level of independence from him, he used emotional tactics and games to draw me to him; make me feel guilty, play with other kids (including my brother), and I had no defence against him; I was just an innocent kid getting so hurt every time that it would have profound detriment on me as a person later in life. This was pure psychological warfare, and I was totally oblivious to it. My mother would often explain this to me, but I just couldn't listen. I was too drawn to this guy. This went on for years, until I began to gain independence from him. I didn't play his shitty games, and if he fucked me off, he was alone, or with worse company.

When high school came along, he'd practically vanished from my concerns; he was no longer a strong force in life. I was the force. However, emotionally, I was still not that hardened. For two or three years, I endured a lot of physical fighting with a fair few people. I'm not showing off when I say I probably had the most fights in the school. I was what you'd call physically weak in the playground hierarchy. I was challenged by a guy who often got bullied, and every time we fought, it was either a draw (that is, no one could prove superior strength) or I would beat him and then before he had a chance to come back at me, fifty people would pile on top of him. It was pure male aggression; perhaps my first real experience of it. One time, and I certainly don't feel proud of it, I actually walked up to this guy and kicked his head while he was still down. Completely dishonourable. Another time when I was in stalemate, this guy started crying because he'd lost all crowd support. He wanted to shake hands and I, with compassion, shook hands. I didn't give a shit what the crowd wanted. I knew what was right at that time. He had lost his will, and I had already won. There was no need to continue.

I encountered this guy in Year 10 (14-15yrs old), an SLE probably 7w8, who was in my maths and science classes. Rather than see someone who used to make me cry about the simplest things, I see him as my mentor, in a way. Now, I know my path in life is better than his. He certainly couldn't mentor me for shit any more. But at this time, he would say "I'm joking!" when he saw it had had an adverse impact on me. But he could successfully make me feel downtrodden every time. It is around him that I feel my Se developed and matured. But as I said, if I went back and visited him, I'd probably be looking down at him from a superior position.

When college (16-18yrs old) came, my shell had practically hardened to the state it is now. No one could touch me emotionally. In fact, I would touch them emotionally. Often in a bad way. I would do the same thing the SLE 7w8 did to me in school, but to other people. I suddenly realised I was coming from how he thought back then, and realised that maybe what he did was as a result of the way he was brought up. People had to remind me that not everyone is as hardened as I. I realised that I'd be like everyone if not for this shit that happened to me in high school. Now, in university, when people take the piss, I just find it funny. My mind works in a completely different way from how it did. The jokes that once would destroy me inside now just make me laugh. I haven't experienced what I did as a kid for a long, long time.

However, not all my traits have arisen from environmental factors. Although I grew up in an area where fighting was commonplace (no, not the ghetto, but just more fighting than the typical white, middle class might experience), and I had to listen to idiots shout "MAN OR MOUSE? THAT'S WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO" to make some kid fight, and face mean motherfuckers who liked to bully people five years younger than them). There have always been inherent traits in me that have been there for as long as I can remember. Throughout my childhood, I had this leadership-based spirit. I'd often rally my friends and/or my brothers friends together, and have massive wars, which would have to play out as I dictated; that is, we had to wear separate clothes and people had to die properly and realistically if we were using toy guns. I'd often use stones, and could encourage them to do so, but sometimes I'd go "too far" in their eyes, and make one of them cry or something, so normally we had to stick to pine cones and sticks. Water fights were always great. This roughness was inherent within me; I was full of enthusiasm and gusto, so much so that I was considered as the kind of "bad ass" kid who was a shitty influence on their kids (they would often scold me or whatever).

I'm big on justice. There is often made the distinction between a One's sense of justice and an Eight's sense of justice. Ones rationalise it; Eights have a visceral response to it. I can think of a few instances of this. When I was in high school, I saw a kid being picked on by a group of others, and I got this huge feeling inside me, strided over and said "what the fuck are you doing? Get off him" to these kids. They did leave him, and if they didn't my impulse would have destroyed one of them, which wouldn't have been good because these kids were little Year 7s. One injustice I will never forget is when I went to a kid's party and this bitch accused me of wiping snot in her ice-cream. They told my mum, I got home, and my dad said "DID YOU DO IT?". When I said "no", he smacked me. I kept saying no. In any case, I never wanted to hurt anyone; I just wanted to have fun and up the ante in a fight to make it more exciting. I always ended up being "too much" though. Live large and excessive was how I did it, and people couldn't appreciate this. I have nothing but hateful feelings for the whore that claimed this shit, nor the bitch who told my mother about the incident, nor the fact that my father could commit such shit.

Another thing I've always been in pursuit of is the truth. I hate liars, and I've never lied. I may conceal the truth, but the occasion for this rarely arises. I have an innate problem with bullshitting people and with lying. It's as bad as trying to manipulate someone, and I can instantly pick up when some little bitch is attempting to sugar talk me so that they can get something from me, but this might have more to do with Se than with my being an Eight. Another point that is worth making concerns my expansiveness and imposition of will on others. I tend to believe that if someone is not making the right choice in life, I can make it for them. This is what I get in trouble for from others when they believe I think I'm right about their life choices.

Because of the way I've been brought up, financially, I have this strong drive in me to make sure I have all I need. I come from a pretty poor background, and thus I'm driven to accumulate money (hence why I want to become a lawyer). I am so concerned about the funds I have. Often, my mind is a calculator ("where do I need to put my energies? Do I have enough money to spread across going out for a drink tonight with friends, buying lunch tomorrow and being able to afford washing at the end of the week?"). I'm very materialistic, but only to the extent that I get what I need. I don't go overboard in my materialism as the Seven does, but rather I'm concerned about the bare necessities, and how I will achieve gaining said necessities. (Necessities will often spread into film and music, because I see music and film as a huge part of my life.)

My whole life is laid out before me (by myself - I wouldn't want anyone else do it for me), so that I am guaranteed to "survive" as such. I know exactly where I'm getting the funds to complete the GDL and LPC, and I have back up plans for this. I'm on my way to finding out what kind of law I want to do, and what firms I want to work for, and I don't even need to start thinking about this for another year. I plan to have kids, and I'm going to save up for their universities, so that - heaven forbid - they need not concern themselves with how they're going to eat for the next week. (No doubt prices will have risen, too. I want to give them the best opportunities in life.) Essentially, those who I take under my wing I look after. I'm constantly concerned about what my brother is going to do in life; I don't want to see him ending up as a bum. If he doesn't have the qualifications, he is going to fuck about all his life. I'm forceful with him because I want the best for him. I want him to be able to succeed in the world in which lives, as I am going to do.

I doubt anyone will read all this, but who cares. Nick asks, I answer.

[Ezra]

Was wondering if you've talked about E8s here or elsewhere before? If you have, could I trouble you for a link?

I don't know when I've talked about them at length. I'll discuss them with you via PM or in a new thread if you want (or even here). Probably the type I know most about on the Enneagram. What do you want to know?

I see, I see....so what would a Seven's counterpassion be?

Asceticism, probably.

Shit, did I say "Austerity" for the Eight? That's wrong. It should be Asceticism. The Seven's counterpassion is Austerity. Basically, they feel as if people don't take them seriously in life, as they're always joking and taking things very light-heartedly, so that when it actually comes to important things, they are either not considered seriously or, worse, shunned and not included in important discussions and plans etc. So what they do is become overly-serious. Which, because of the Seven's nature, looks absolutely ridiculous and out of place. Worst case scenario is that people simply stop associating themselves with the Seven, which the Seven is clearly going to become highly depressed about.

Yeah and so much cooler than the internet.

What! Nothing is cooler than the internet. 1nt3rn375 reigns supreme.

[Gilly]

Actually this has helped me get a better picture of who you are, Ezra; I was unsure about some things before, but reading about your life has definitely cleared them up.

[strrrng]

I doubt anyone will read all this, but who cares. Nick asks, I answer.

I'm gonna read it, and I'm gonna respond.

[unefille]

I doubt anyone will read all this, but who cares. Nick asks, I answer.

I thought it was an interesting read as well. It's always good getting some depth about people behind their online facades.

[strrrng]

When I was a kid in primary school (this is school between 5-11yrs old), I was emotionally fucked over, multiple times, by one kid called Josh. He'd have this push-pull relationship going on with me, and because of his family problems, and because I admired certain aspects of him, he knew he had someone to hang around with. Whenever I tried to express any level of independence from him, he used emotional tactics and games to draw me to him; make me feel guilty, play with other kids (including my brother), and I had no defence against him; I was just an innocent kid getting so hurt every time that it would have profound detriment on me as a person later in life. This was pure psychological warfare, and I was totally oblivious to it. My mother would often explain this to me, but I just couldn't listen. I was too drawn to this guy. This went on for years, until I began to gain independence from him. I didn't play his shitty games, and if he fucked me off, he was alone, or with worse company.

When high school came along, he'd practically vanished from my concerns; he was no longer a strong force in life. I was the force. However, emotionally, I was still not that hardened. For two or three years, I endured a lot of physical fighting with a fair few people. I'm not showing off when I say I probably had the most fights in the school. I was what you'd call physically weak in the playground hierarchy. I was challenged by a guy who often got bullied, and every time we fought, it was either a draw (that is, no one could prove superior strength) or I would beat him and then before he had a chance to come back at me, fifty people would pile on top of him. It was pure male aggression; perhaps my first real experience of it. One time, and I certainly don't feel proud of it, I actually walked up to this guy and kicked his head while he was still down. Completely dishonourable. Another time when I was in stalemate, this guy started crying because he'd lost all crowd support. He wanted to shake hands and I, with compassion, shook hands. I didn't give a shit what the crowd wanted. I knew what was right at that time. He had lost his will, and I had already won. There was no need to continue.

I encountered this guy in Year 10 (14-15yrs old), an SLE probably 7w8, who was in my maths and science classes. Rather than see someone who used to make me cry about the simplest things, I see him as my mentor, in a way. Now, I know my path in life is better than his. He certainly couldn't mentor me for shit any more. But at this time, he would say "I'm joking!" when he saw it had had an adverse impact on me. But he could successfully make me feel downtrodden every time. It is around him that I feel my Se developed and matured. But as I said, if I went back and visited him, I'd probably be looking down at him from a superior position.

When college (16-18yrs old) came, my shell had practically hardened to the state it is now. No one could touch me emotionally. In fact, I would touch them emotionally. Often in a bad way. I would do the same thing the SLE 7w8 did to me in school, but to other people. I suddenly realised I was coming from how he thought back then, and realised that maybe what he did was as a result of the way he was brought up. People had to remind me that not everyone is as hardened as I. I realised that I'd be like everyone if not for this shit that happened to me in high school. Now, in university, when people take the piss, I just find it funny. My mind works in a completely different way from how it did. The jokes that once would destroy me inside now just make me laugh. I haven't experienced what I did as a kid for a long, long time.

However, not all my traits have arisen from environmental factors. Although I grew up in an area where fighting was commonplace (no, not the ghetto, but just more fighting than the typical white, middle class might experience), and I had to listen to idiots shout "MAN OR MOUSE? THAT'S WHAT IT COMES DOWN TO" to make some kid fight, and face mean motherfuckers who liked to bully people five years younger than them). There have always been inherent traits in me that have been there for as long as I can remember. Throughout my childhood, I had this leadership-based spirit. I'd often rally my friends and/or my brothers friends together, and have massive wars, which would have to play out as I dictated; that is, we had to wear separate clothes and people had to die properly and realistically if we were using toy guns. I'd often use stones, and could encourage them to do so, but sometimes I'd go "too far" in their eyes, and make one of them cry or something, so normally we had to stick to pine cones and sticks. Water fights were always great. This roughness was inherent within me; I was full of enthusiasm and gusto, so much so that I was considered as the kind of "bad ass" kid who was a shitty influence on their kids (they would often scold me or whatever).

I'm big on justice. There is often made the distinction between a One's sense of justice and an Eight's sense of justice. Ones rationalise it; Eights have a visceral response to it. I can think of a few instances of this. When I was in high school, I saw a kid being picked on by a group of others, and I got this huge feeling inside me, strided over and said "what the fuck are you doing? Get off him" to these kids. They did leave him, and if they didn't my impulse would have destroyed one of them, which wouldn't have been good because these kids were little Year 7s. One injustice I will never forget is when I went to a kid's party and this bitch accused me of wiping snot in her ice-cream. They told my mum, I got home, and my dad said "DID YOU DO IT?". When I said "no", he smacked me. I kept saying no. In any case, I never wanted to hurt anyone; I just wanted to have fun and up the ante in a fight to make it more exciting. I always ended up being "too much" though. Live large and excessive was how I did it, and people couldn't appreciate this. I have nothing but hateful feelings for the whore that claimed this shit, nor the bitch who told my mother about the incident, nor the fact that my father could commit such shit.

Another thing I've always been in pursuit of is the truth. I hate liars, and I've never lied. I may conceal the truth, but the occasion for this rarely arises. I have an innate problem with bullshitting people and with lying. It's as bad as trying to manipulate someone, and I can instantly pick up when some little bitch is attempting to sugar talk me so that they can get something from me, but this might have more to do with Se than with my being an Eight. Another point that is worth making concerns my expansiveness and imposition of will on others. I tend to believe that if someone is not making the right choice in life, I can make it for them. This is what I get in trouble for from others when they believe I think I'm right about their life choices.

Because of the way I've been brought up, financially, I have this strong drive in me to make sure I have all I need. I come from a pretty poor background, and thus I'm driven to accumulate money (hence why I want to become a lawyer). I am so concerned about the funds I have. Often, my mind is a calculator ("where do I need to put my energies? Do I have enough money to spread across going out for a drink tonight with friends, buying lunch tomorrow and being able to afford washing at the end of the week?"). I'm very materialistic, but only to the extent that I get what I need. I don't go overboard in my materialism as the Seven does, but rather I'm concerned about the bare necessities, and how I will achieve gaining said necessities. (Necessities will often spread into film and music, because I see music and film as a huge part of my life.)

My whole life is laid out before me (by myself - I wouldn't want anyone else do it for me), so that I am guaranteed to "survive" as such. I know exactly where I'm getting the funds to complete the GDL and LPC, and I have back up plans for this. I'm on my way to finding out what kind of law I want to do, and what firms I want to work for, and I don't even need to start thinking about this for another year. I plan to have kids, and I'm going to save up for their universities, so that - heaven forbid - they need not concern themselves with how they're going to eat for the next week. (No doubt prices will have risen, too. I want to give them the best opportunities in life.) Essentially, those who I take under my wing I look after. I'm constantly concerned about what my brother is going to do in life; I don't want to see him ending up as a bum. If he doesn't have the qualifications, he is going to fuck about all his life. I'm forceful with him because I want the best for him. I want him to be able to succeed in the world in which lives, as I am going to do.

SLE 8w7 sp/sx

edit: I got a lot more from this than just a type. I just don't know how to post it; it's more like something you take and store away, but still value.

[unefille]

SLE 8w7 sp/sx

I agree with sp/sx over sp/so as well. Reading what Ezra wrote, there doesn't seem to much to suggest the social instinct at all; if anything, there's a lot to suggest social last.

[strrrng]

I agree with sp/sx over sp/so as well. Reading what Ezra wrote, there doesn't seem to much to suggest the social instinct at all; if anything, there's a lot to suggest social last.

I remember this post he made where he described a group setting in which everyone was participating in some activity together, and how he felt no sense of connection to the group (not emotionally, just individualistically), like he was sort of "there, but not there." I'd say that points to so last.

[Ezra]

Second instinct isn't really that important, but I wouldn't mind knowing.

I suppose I could be sexual second. I'll have look over the next few days and tell you what I think.

Self-pres first is pretty clear.

[idolatrie]

I don't know when I've talked about them at length. I'll discuss them with you via PM or in a new thread if you want (or even here). Probably the type I know most about on the Enneagram. What do you want to know?

I might take you up on the PM offer then, unless you'd particularly prefer to talk about it on the forums for the sake of disseminating the info publically? I guess I want to get a better handle on 8 besides the descriptions I've read so far, and confirm for myself my e-typing.