Socionics and Type/Intertype Patterns in Families

[diamond]

What do we think about socionics and family relationships? What configurations do we see in families? Do we think the intertype relations hold true?

[CuriousSoul]

You'd think it'd be good for me but an ISFJ mother who is in relations of supervision and super-ego with her children can make things pretty bad. Also, my brother and mom usually "teamed up" against me because if a supervisee is treated too poorly by the supervisor they latch onto the nearest available person to strengthen their independence from the supervisor. ISFJ can't really latch to the INTJ but the ENFP can definitely latch to the ISFJ. If I had been INFJ I'm sure my life would be totally different.

Pedro, I know this may sound offensive, but are you sure your mother is ISFJ? I mean she probably is, but what I want to say is that the normal role of mother fits the ISFJ stereotype very closely, and often it seems that almost every other person who knows about MBTI or socionics has an ISFJ mother. ISFJ women just are not that exceptionally common and you should go through all the evidence just in case. Try to remember that the type descriptions are often accurate for many representatives of the types, but can be fairly misleading for others, and male and female versions of the types can also be quite different. Just try to keep in mind that Marge Simpson, for example, is clearly an INTP character, not an ISFJ for example.

[diamond]

Good point, curiousoul. How do we really know what people's type are so that family relationships can be discussed?

In my case, everybody in my family took MBTI since my father was studying it in a graduate class, so in my case I can be pretty sure.

Family relationships can be among the more challenging, though, and people tend to bring their family issues with them into adulthood in a lot of different ways. Looking at family stuff can be helpful if you are on a growth and development course. It also helps to see family members and family issues more objectively and, maybe, be able to de-toxify them a little bit.

[Topaz]

Good point, curiousoul. How do we really know what people's type are so that family relationships can be discussed?

This is an interesting point that Im trying to work out and have been even before I actually knew about socionics.
When I first read Keirsey a light went on cause I had my own system of typing people in my head though never verbalized. I emediately began to match my (large) family to types. However, the reality is Im am too close to the subjects to be completely objective. I gave them Keirseys test and I wrote down on a seperate paper what I thought the outcomes would be and sure enough, they came out as those types or very close (some came out X on certain preferences). Now Kiersey and MBTI are not fool proof and whose to say I didnt bias the test by my presence or words but the break down goes like this:
Dad - estx (my guess estp)
Mom - isxj (my guess isfj)
Sister - infp
Bro -esfp
Bro - estj
Bro - estp
me - enfp
Bro - entp
Sis - xxfp (my guess isfp)
sis - enfp
I did say I have a big family. As you can see we are dominantly Ps. Can you say "messy house". Actually my parents were the most disorganized my moms J not withstanding.

There are some discrepancies that I have not resolved. For example my fathers behaves similar to an estj, ie much more practical than flashy, not very competetive.He is very project oriented but has a hard time following through. That is frustrating when one of the projects is re-doing the kitchen or bathroom.
My mom likes to have everything out where she can see it. That means papers and stuff everywhere. She claims she's not scattered but ....
My oldest sister, intp, is a perpetual student. Even though she is grown and has college age kids she still takes classes and talks about what she will do one day. She is good with people and we are very similar and understand each other well but Im much more outgoing and adventurous.
My brother that is estj is interesting. He always had his clothes folded in the drawers and even kept his shoes in the box they came in to keep them neat and clean. He's super tight with money and very stubborn. We get along pretty good.
My entp brother and I are close in age and very similar. We both love movies and Sci-Fi and crazy fantasy. One of our greatest joys as adults is seeing all the comic book characteres we fantasized about as kids become movies ie Spiderman, Xmen, Fantastic Four, Hulk.
Whenever we all get together we have a great time telling stories and remembering crazy things we did or that happened growing up.
I cant say there was a great deal of conflict at home growning up but I do think our parents let us act very independently (probably by default)
whew. Thanks for listening ..er reading
Topaz

[XcaliburGirl]

Forgive me if this is overly long and incredibly boring. I just like to put brains on "paper" when it comes to my family.

I still live at home(paying a modest rent) and have long been fascinated by the interesting cast of characters in my family. We have no major problems in our relationships, though there are plenty of little arguments and misunderstandings.

Since my typing skills are doubful, I'm putting what they tested as at www.humanmetrics.com.
(Since all of the children are female, I've listed the ages.)

Dad - ISTJ
Mom - ENxJ (1st test T:1%, 2nd F:[not sure, but higher])
20 - INTJ (me)
17 - ISTP
15 - ESFJ (I think P)
11 - ISFJ ?
7 - ISTP ?

My father is the glue of the family, my mother is the initative. My dad works all day, comes home, after dinner he superintends the cleaning up and washing of dishes. My mom homeschools my sisters, works part time as a real estate agent and a web host. She tends to go into things with energy and optimism, but then burns out.

I get along fine with my dad, he seems to understand me fairly well, but often lectures me about things that I find just a little too conventional. But, I appreciate his concern and his experience, and I think he sees that I do.

My mother on the other hand... Not sure if she's T or F. I've always considered her overly emotional, but the ENTJ description fits her fairly well(leadership, etc.). She also (admittedly) isn't the most sympathetic person. But she often takes my criticism, or even a different opinion of mine, personally. I think she sometimes feels hurt by my privacy, i.e. that I don't confide in her.

My 17 year-old sister, ISTP, is--how shall I put this?--obsessed with Star Wars and the TV show Stargate SG-1. She's planning on going to college(but no idea of what to major in) and joining the Air Force ROTC. I've tried to talk her out of it. She says she likes authority and discipline, but admits also that she's joining because she dislikes the idea of an regular, boring job and wants to have her goals mapped out for her by someone else. We get along great, but there's some psychological distance there.

My 15 year-old sister, I've talked about in a different thread (INTJ/ESFJ conflicts), I think now that she is an ESFP. She likes drawing and costume/fashion design. I'm afraid ISTP17 and I gang up on her sometimes and give her a hard time about being trendy. Little kids seem drawn to her and vise versa. And, she tries to mother (more in a bossy sense than a caring sense) everybody (including me).

My 11 year-old sister, who tested ISFJ, is perpetually cheerful and artistic. We all thought she'd test as an E since she's friendly and not as socially inept-->ahem< "shy" as the ISTPs and I. On the other hand she does enjoy being alone. She draws and paints and has an amazing natural sense of perspective. She can make an entire little world out of a bunch of paper, cardboard, and tape. She relishes food and life in general. I get along fine with her. We both love to play word games, card games, and logic games(Clue, MasterMind) together.

My 7 year-old sister tested as ISTP, but I simplified the questions and am not sure how accurate it is. She's shy with strangers, talkative and strong-willed at home. She tends to freeze up severely if younger kids approach her. She also has a morbid streak, e.g. if mom or dad is late coming home, they must have had a car accident and might be dead. When she gets this way she seems worried, but doesn't start crying or anything. I think she's fascinated by the thought, but doesn't really believe it. I'm 12 years older than she is, so it's difficult to define our relationship. Usually there's a power struggle going on.

[Slava]

My family is fairly small. Its just my mom, dad and I. I had both of my parents take an MBTI test online, my father came out as ISFp (socionics) and my mom INFp (socionics), I'm an INTj but sometimes I have doubts about this and think that I may actually be a quiet ENTp. My mom reminds me very much of Louis from family guy, and is actually a piano teacher as well. My father is a software engineer. As a child it was very difficult living with two parents who's hidden agenda was to understand. My parents are very smart, but it felt as if no one understood me at all. (I had a very unusual childhood so this may have affected our relations a lot)

[diamond]

Family configurations are so interesting. And I've thought socionics brings a whole new level of understanding to family interactions.

There's 5 people in my family and all were typed a number of years ago.

Mom: estj
Dad: infj
Me: entp
brother: intj
brother: enfp

My enfp brother was kind of the favorite, which makes sense now since he is in the same quadra as my parents. Then there was me. When I was younger, I could do nothing right, kinda thinking I knew best but always getting into trouble. But with relations of supervision and beneficience with my parents, it kind of makes sense. My intj brother was kind of off in his own world, a little more separate from everybody, but not in a bad way. I probably get along best with him since we are mirrors. He does feel superior to my enfp brother, though, since he's enfp's supervisor.

Slava, interesting that you should not feel understood. I think my intj brother would feel that way, too. When we were young, he was so quiet, like he needed more space than everyone else or someting, that he would just kind of go off by himself and isolate. And he'd get mad if you sought him out. But he might say that he felt not understood, because everybody else was in the mix. But I could also see him saying he didn't really care either, so I don't know.


excaliburgirl, there's so many people in your family, it seems like everyone probably has a chance of finding someone they get along with!

[Cone]

Well, this sounds fun.

Here's all of the people in my family that I know of their types:

Me - INTp (obviously)
Mom - INFp
Sister - ESFp
Dad - ISFj
Cousin - ISTj
Cousin - INTj

As you can see, I don't have much experience with the Alpha or Delta quadra. And my entire family (other than my sister) is completely introverted.


Your INTp friend,

Cone

[trey]

dad: ESFP
mom: ESTJ
brother: ISTJ or ESTP
sister in law: INFP
stepmom: INTP
stepdad: ISTP
me: ENTP

i think i have it pretty bad, but at least i don't have the mother in law from hell like my brother's wife does

[diamond]

dad: ESFP
mom: ESTJ
brother: ISTJ or ESTP
sister in law: INFP
stepmom: INTP
stepdad: ISTP
me: ENTP

i think i have it pretty bad, but at least i don't have the mother in law from hell like my brother's wife does

Do you have it bad because of your parents or your siblings or a combination of both??

[trey]

Do you have it bad because of your parents or your siblings or a combination of both??

well, i guess it's not so much that **I** have it bad, as it is that the family does as a whole. look at the relations between the core members (mom dad brother myself), and consider living 12 years together in that emotional environment.. and as an ENTP!!

i'll stop before this begins to look more like a whine than an explanation.

[discourse]

Interesting to read about others families.

My dad ISTJ
My mom ISFJ
Sister INFJ
me some kind of NT.

My sis sure is from Delta. Very psychological and believes strongly into humanity. She is the one of the reasons, I'm becoming to hate NF club members.

[Pearl80]

I'm ashamed to admit it but my family is wholly dysfunctional.

My home life was a torturous affair! Because my immediate family members never tested I will give you my opinion of the relations we shared.

My mother and I shared the relation of Supervision. I am Supervisor.

My older brother and I share an emotionally explosive relationship, which can only be described as overwhelming love and hate towards me. I just try to stay as far away from him as possible. (Maybe you know?)

My younger brother and I share the relation of identity. We would gang up on our older brother every now and again.

My aunt (ESFP) has two daughters (ENFJ) & (ESTP). My aunt worships the ground the ENFJ walks on only to be treated like a second-class citizen. The ESTP daughter treats my aunt like an empress only to be treated like garbage in return. It's almost like my aunt is jealous of her ESTP daughter and relentlessly knit picks in her company.

The ESTP daughters stress level in her mother’s presence is overwhelming. I have even chided my ESFP aunt for treating her daughter so callously.

My cousin (ISFP) and her husband (INFP) have been together for ten years and openly one up each other. They seem to know how to get into each one's POLR with skill and precision. *They are two of the biggest gossips in our family to date.

[discourse]

My cousin (ISFP) and her husband (INFP)

I'd like to know, what's the ocupation of that INFP husband. Pehaps it's too private thing to ask, but I have this hunch that usually INFPs try to work as IT workers or scientists or in any other field, which requiers good .

[Pearl80]

Yes to your first question.

Pedro, applying Illisionary relations in the first post was a simple mistake on my part.

Interestingly, the ENFJ daughter has a live-in boyfriend who is an ESFJ. Thier relationship is about as bad or even worse. I also have two coworkers that share this relation and they despise each other.

I read several Socionists take on comparative relations and they can be pretty horrible. The relation descriptions are right on.

(Sorry...Translation was not the best)

Stankevichute
These are attitudes of two similar types. When two collide ethical, they suffer from surplus of passions, emotions. When two together live logic, their attitudes is constant "", the irritation at times breaks. These are attitudes in which very much there is no frankness, and partners seem each other egoists.

Filatova
The basic property - Mutual understanding. Relatives are similar, but despite of obvious ability to understanding each other, there is a tendency of a critical estimation, remarks and "" to details. Both are interested frequently with the details unpleasant for both. In these attitudes the actions touching partners are possible. And if concerning identity the touched place of the partner is felt, and before it apologize, mutual actions, the words which are not taking into account sensitive places of both here are possible.

These are good attitudes for work. The disputed shade can be shown in need of division of spheres of action. Because of this shade relatives can be rather afraid each other.

These are most discomfortable of attitudes of Mutual understanding, but all of them-òàêè are still comfortable enough. Attitudes are not active. Frequently result both in need for independence, freedom from each other.

[diamond]

[quote="Pearl80"]Yes to your first question.

Pedro, applying Illisionary relations in the first post was a simple mistake on my part.

Interestingly, the ENFJ daughter has a live-in boyfriend who is an ESFJ. Thier relationship is about as bad or even worse. I also have two coworkers that share this relation and they despise each other.

I read several Socionists take on comparative relations and they can be pretty horrible. The relation descriptions are right on.

(Sorry...Translation was not the best)

Stankevichute



Comparative relations are pretty bad . . . I had one with a co-worker in my last job and we were constantly at each other. She would never stop talking and try to verbally dominate and I would tear apart her logic with a quickness. She would try to influence perception and manipulate people's emotions and fears and I would persist with facts, logic, and analysis. We really would be at each other over our weaker 4th functions. Funny, I think we had a strange attraction to each other and may have even been able to be friends had we not worked together, but in a work situation it was horrible. When her hours were reduced to part-time, I was relieved.

One of my family members is also in comparative relations with me and it's similar although a lot less intense now that we are adults and don't have to live together. These days, I can relate to the socionics description - we don't really have that much interest in one another's problems or concerns.

[Pearl80]

Pedro,

My cousin is pretty soft hearted when it comes to her mother. She seems to take the abuse for as long as possible then she explodes and leaves. I truly believe that her mother's hostility drives her to neurosis. So sad.

Blaze,

Your relation with your co-worker sounds just like my co-workers!

I share the comparative relation with a co-worker but our duties involve a small degree of collaboration which helps tremendously. I can remember times when he has gotten "knit picky" with me or whined about something idiotic and I became furious.

Interestingly, our relationship has taken a turn for the better. I started engaging him in meaningful small talk when I see him. Now he seems more pleasant and not so irritating. I think he even asked me out last week...in a very INTJ kinda way! hahahaha

I believe that we share a respectful understanding of each other's abilities and duties. As well, I made an effort to take him seriously and not just dismiss him based on his idiosyncrasies. (My opinion)

[diamond]

Pedro,

My cousin is pretty soft hearted when it comes to her mother. She seems to take the abuse for as long as possible then she explodes and leaves. I truly believe that her mother's hostility drives her to neurosis. So sad.

Blaze,

Your relation with your co-worker sounds just like my co-workers!

I share the comparative relation with a co-worker but our duties involve a small degree of collaboration which helps tremendously. I can remember times when he has gotten "knit picky" with me or whined about something idiotic and I became furious.



Interestingly, our relationship has taken a turn for the better. I started engaging him in meaningful small talk when I see him. Now he seems more pleasant and not so irritating. I think he even asked me out last week...in a very INTJ kinda way! hahahaha

I believe that we share a respectful understanding of each other's abilities and duties. As well, I made an effort to take him seriously and not just dismiss him based on his idiosyncrasies. (My opinion)

Actually this co worker and me did reach a sort of working truce for awhile. We started to meet a lot and discuss negotiation points and come up with points of agreement. We were actually able to bring about some much needed changes to the program we were developing and things were on track. But then I went out on maternity leave, we stopped meeting and when I got back she was back into her campaign of emotional drama. Her funding was being threatened and sure enough, finally cut. So she went part time and we got along again. All I'm saying is that basic respect can go a certain distance but some relationships are a real stretch in the best of circumstances and in certain stressful situations, the relationship can only adapt so far and for so long. Maybe at these times structural changes can benefit the relationship.

[taz]

My mom is a ESTJ. Job house cleaner.
Step dad is a ENTJ. Job Janitor.
brother age 15 is ENFP
brother age 14 is INTJ
I am ISFP.

To make this alittle different my brothers real dad is my step dad. My parents don't get along at times cause they both can want to do the stuff there way and are at times forceful with there opinions toward each other. But can get along .

[Forest-Dragon]

Mum: ISTJ
Dad: INFP
Brother: ENFP
Me: INTP (socionics)

Despite having comparative relations with my dad and relations of benefit with my mum, I actually have a good relationship with both of them. However, my brother has a conflicting relation with my mum, and it shows.

[taz]

It must be hard on your stepdad and you.

Actually at times my step dad likes me because if he is in a bad mood I can usually cheer him up. He known me since I was 1 yrs. old.

[taz]

Sorry I forgot to log in the guest above is me.

[diamond]

I noticed some enfp brothers here . . . I have one too.

[The Exception]

I'm bad at typing others. I'm guessing my mother is ISFp or ESFj, I'm leaning more towards ESFj. If I'm really an INTj, like I think I am, that would make her my dual. We are pretty close and can talk about most things and I enjoy talking with her. However, she can be a bit overprotective and sometimes she talks to much and I feel like she's encroaching in on my space. Sometimes we don't always see eye to eye and she will get upset at me for the dumbbest things- like spilling something because I wasn't watching where I was going. These arguments are very short lived though. Overall, though, our relationship is very close knit. My mother is a homemaker who works occassional temporary, part time jobs.

Its a different story with my father. I'm less sure of his type. Probably IxTx. I'm not nearly as comfortable talking with him. Conversation with him always seems somewhat forced and stilted. He speaks in short clipped sentences, that sound more definitive then what I would say. I often get this sense that he's lecturing at me and telling me what to do all the time although I know that's not really his intention. I know he loves and cares about me but he's not demonstrative at all in showing it. Unlike my mother. My dad is a computer systems analyst who has been working at the same company for 30 years.

My sister, I'm guessing is INFp or INFj. She loves music and dancing and theatre. She also has a good sense of how others are feeling and she is the person in her social circle whom friends go to for advice and emotional support. She is somewhat shy, yet has a wide circle of friends. Her fashion sense is pretty good too. She instinctively knows what looks good and is good at selecting outfits that are fashionable, yet reflect her own unique style. She just graduated from college with a psychology major and is off to grad. school. Overall I'm not as close to her as my mother, but I have more kinship with her than my father. We share a similar sense of humor and have common interests like psychology.

Laura
INTj until 'proven' guilty of 'lying' on tests

[taz]

Just to give me something to do which I don't even know the answer myself. How do you think both parents who were Extrovert can have a introverted child?

[taz]

Mom:ESTJ
Step Dad: Most likely ISTJ
Me: ISFP
Brother:Most likely ESFJ But don't know either.
My cat:IXFX Don't know :wink:

[discourse]

Just to give me something to do which I don't even know the answer myself. How do you think both parents who were Extrovert can have a introverted child?

Simply, like two parents with brown eyes can have children with blue eyes.

[IcEPiCk]

MOM: INFJ
DAD: ESTJ
ME: ISTP
BROTHER: ENTP

My parents are duals, still ended up splitting though... Could have something to do with the fact hes in law enforcement.

I got along with my parents ALRIGHT... accept my room was always messy and it drove my Dad crazy, I envy his organizational skills with events and people. I must say, INFJs seem too emotional at times but they are very caring to their loved ones (the problem is you have to be one of thier loved ones to get that love, in a circle of accepted people I think).

My brother is ENTP, we NEVER got along barely even though he is my semi-dual.. He always wanted attention, and lied all to frequently. Another ENTP I know I got along with until I caught her in her lies to. The older ones I get along with, they seem to realize this is less acceptable in society. When you mix lying once in a while with an ISTP its a bad combination because we are very much about trust and honesty.
[/list]

[MysticSonic]

Mom: ESFj
Step Dad: ISFj
Me: INTj

...and since my secondary family wields a strong influence in my life.

Grandfather: INFj
Grandmother: ENFj
Uncle #1: ESTp
Uncle #2: ISTp

A lot of contrary relationships going on there. :/

[Koneko]

Mother(50): ENFj --- dual --- Father(51): ISTj

Me(22): INFj --- identical --- Wife(23): INFj

Brother(20)ESTj
Brother(18):ENTp

For her family it's like:
Mother: ESFj --- dual --- Father: INTj

She: INFj
Sister #1: ESFj
Sister #2: ISFp
Brother: ????

Everyone seems to be alpha but her.

icky family mine is....
Mother is contrary, i get a SHIT of a bad relationship with her
Father is superego, we get along quite well althoug I would never take decisions his way
Brother is dual and our relationship doesn't exists
Other brother is supervisee but no relationship exists either

[taz]

My relatives on my mom side.

Total that I know fore sure.

3-ISTP
3-ENFP
4-ISFP
1-ENTP
1-INFP
All those are my cousins and great aunts and Uncles.

[Creepy-misk]

wouldn't you think your family would be in the same quadra if the parents were duals?

I think my dad is an ENTj and my mom is an ISFp/j..

From some of the posts here, we see that conflicting relations between parent and child do exist.

what do you think about the hereditary nature of type?

[mimisor]

Well, my mom is ISFp, I know cause I made her the test and my dad probably ISTj. I get along well with both. My brother is an ENTJ, now I know for sure and indeed I can say there is a conflicting relation between him and the rest of the family. I guess we are too slow for him. Different rhythms of life and from here the conflicting.

I don't think type is hereditary. There is no connection.

[Joy]

My brother and sister are my semi-dual and dual. My mom and dad are duals... my benificiary and supervisee!

[Jimbean]

I have seen a duality marriage, ESTj and an INFj with two kids that are ENTp and ESTp.

[taz]

My dad is a XSTX for sure and most of the time we get along great.
My mom either an ENTX or ESTX. I get along with her pretty well.
My mom and dad sometime get along, and sometime they don't the problem with thier relationship is they both like to force thier ideas and both don't like to lose in an argument. My dad likes to be in control and they both argue firing with facts toward each other.
My oldest brother (16) is an ENFP and we get along real well. My mom get along really well with him. But he sometimes get along with my dad.
My youngest brother(15) is an ISTP sadly most of the time we don't get along. My dad get along well with my ISTP brother same with my ENFP brother.

[Creepy-heathiep]

me and my mom get along famously. i don't know her type but she's one of those psychotic worrying types(like when i was younger(ha!) if i wasn't home at curfew should wait til i got home and rail into me about how she couldn't sleep cause she was thinking about me, i sort of blame my party animal and drug dealing brother tho haha). She freaks out when i have a bruise or whatever, typical mom sort of stuff. I dunno her type but she's pretty neat. My step-dad(non-biological, has raised me since age 3) is an LSE or SLI for sure, he's a great amatuer carpenter and knows anything like that, and has the most incredible work ethic, but is sort of awkward with other people(tho he does have friends, he is not the center of attention amongst them, but they all respect him deadly, he's a great leader). I suspect he might also be an ENTJ, because he's good at business matters, and has kept up with all sorts of technology(he's more into computers than me). I dunno he's a killer guy. Here's an awesome picture of him in his younger years:

and this is a really REALLY good capture of one of my mom's and my favorite facial expressions:


ah man i get to see them tommorrow

[Darklord]

My father is not one of those people who go around showing emotion. I'd guess that he is one of the ISxp types. We get along extremely well, even though I think he at times feels frustrated with my complete lack of interest in getting a job and in hiking/fishing, and my clumsy incompetence when it comes to anything that has to do with using the hands. My dad is also the kind of person who can stay in a job for a decade, then suddenly decide he wants to do something new, and get a lower paid position somewhere else for a year. He is also the caretaker of the house.

My mother is an absolute workaholic who works overtime every day and loves nothing better than her job, with the one exception of her family. When not working, she usually lies on the couch reading. I'd guess her to be one of the ESxj types, although only moderately strong S, but she could also be an ISxj.

My oldest sister is annoying as hell. We constantly go on each others' nerves, and we end up in head-to-head clashes in the struggle for dominance in the house. Yet, when we haven't been in constant contact for a while, we are the best siblings imaginable. We can then sit on the phone and just laugh for hours. I don't know her type, but the relationship is very marked, and I shouldn't have much trouble figuring her type out. She is probably an N, although not certainly, and I'd guess an F, as well.

My youngest sister is very much an I, and she has found her activity partner in a neighbour girl. She usually sits in her room reading, and she wrote pretty much without error before she started school. Her fascination for reading, particularily fantasy, makes me think an N. She is as of yet too young for me to be sure of her T/F or j/p.

I've been rambling... Well, it should be pretty clear that we don't make up a quadra, at least.

[Slacker]

My mom is an ENTj and I'm quite sure my dad is an ENFj.

I have no idea what my brother and sister are. I'm still trying to figure that out.

[nonoiseplease]

I am INTJ with an ESFP father and grandmother, and numerous other ESFP relatives in a big Italian family. Family life for me and my poor ISTP brother (people think we're the same b/c we're "both quiet" - haha, what idiots) has always been miserable. But wait, thanksgiving is coming...ugh...