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Thread: Had A Ne Clash Yesterday

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    Default Had A Ne Clash Yesterday

    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    You could always sell out to the Ne-man.

    But seriously, I have no way how to help you here. I'm too biased with my love for Ne. I would probably act more or less exactly like your friends did, and I tend to agree wholeheartedly with the forumers you mentioned. Sorry that this post is useless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    You could always sell out to the Ne-man.

    But seriously, I have no way how to help you here. I'm too biased with my love for Ne. I would probably act more or less exactly like your friends did, and I tend to agree wholeheartedly with the forumers you mentioned. Sorry that this post is useless.
    Hahahaha. It's okay.

    *grinning* You're another one to add to the hitlist.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Hahahaha. It's okay.

    *grinning* You're another one to add to the hitlist.
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    Why can't you stick with it? I think you should. If it is what you belive, then stick with it! Who cares what quadra they are in, or what functions they seek. Stick to your guns man!

    Edit: But still be nice about it etc.. dont be a jerk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christy B View Post
    Why can't you stick with it? I think you should. If it is what you belive, then stick with it! Who cares what quadra they are in, or what functions they seek. Stick to your guns man!
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking. It's ridiculous. The syndrome I get from these people is a "I guess you're right" feeling and extreme annoyance at my inability to accept what they can accept. It just makes me more angry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking. It's ridiculous. The syndrome I get from these people is a "I guess you're right" feeling and extreme annoyance at my inability to accept what they can accept. It just makes me more angry.
    Oh, no. This is bad. Why do they have so much power over you? You should know to be confident in your own ideas and own view of things. Who cares what they say! Seriously, if you believe in it, stick to your guns.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    You don't understand. If I did that, I would be an idiot. It's like someone seeing that a ship is sinking, and spreading the word that the ship is not sinking. It's ridiculous. The syndrome I get from these people is a "I guess you're right" feeling and extreme annoyance at my inability to accept what they can accept. It just makes me more angry.
    The greater evil is being dishonest to yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.
    You need to accept that people will think differently from you and they have the right to determine their lives as they see fit. Whilst you might think that your way is correct, you have no right to impose it upon them. You can make a good case for you opinions and position, but ultimately, accept that they have personal responsibility for their way of life.

    I guess you have to appreciate the subjectivity of your own experience and philosophy.

    I don't know, I mean, I think that's the mature way. You could also just shrug and say 'Well, too stupid to appreciate my wisdom.'

    I mean, what do you want to happen? To make them see the wrongness of their way and the rightness of yours? It's incredibly frustrating in life when you KNOW you're right and yet you also KNOW other people aren't wrong. There really isn't a way to resolve that but to accept the multiplicity of experience.

    That's probably not very helpful, but it's just advice true to my experience. I used to get upset at the same thing. I KNEW they were wrong and yet I could see their way working for them. It made me SO frustrated. I got over it by reminding myself that I wasn't oracle of rightness and humility in recognising my personal fallibility and the merit of other people's values is a good thing.
    ()
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    Quote Originally Posted by unefille View Post
    You need to accept that people will think differently from you and they have the right to determine their lives as they see fit. Whilst you might think that your way is correct, you have no right to impose it upon them. You can make a good case for you opinions and position, but ultimately, accept that they have personal responsibility for their way of life.

    I guess you have to appreciate the subjectivity of your own experience and philosophy.

    I don't know, I mean, I think that's the mature way. You could also just shrug and say 'Well, too stupid to appreciate my wisdom.'

    I mean, what do you want to happen? To make them see the wrongness of their way and the rightness of yours? It's incredibly frustrating in life when you KNOW you're right and yet you also KNOW other people aren't wrong. There really isn't a way to resolve that but to accept the multiplicity of experience.

    That's probably not very helpful, but it's just advice true to my experience. I used to get upset at the same thing. I KNEW they were wrong and yet I could see their way working for them. It made me SO frustrated. I got over it by reminding myself that I wasn't oracle of rightness and humility in recognising my personal fallibility and the merit of other people's values is a good thing.

    +10.

    i'll add my 2 cents also. there are situations where Ne is more valuable than Se and vice versa.

    if i'm in a big fucking crisis and i need somebody to get other people moving in a direction, then i'm going to turn to an Se. if things are totally chaotic and impossible to try to figure out, i'm going to turn to an Se. they won't wonder about possibilities. they'll draw a straight line from problem to solution.

    if things are completely frustratingly stalled and entropic, i'm looking for Ne to shake it up. when tools plans missions and the like aren't working or when there's a lack of meaning or purpose in something i'm going to turn to Ne.

    it's about using people (in a good way) for what they are good at and at the right time and in the right situation, not really right or wrong. i'm not sure what your situation is since you don't really give details, but it sounds like the situation was not right for Se. so drop it then and go with the Ne flow...it won't hurt ya as long as you don't try to be good at it. besides you might learn something.

    ILE

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    It's just an inherent clash of functions, man. There's not much you can do about it. I don't really get along with cracka either. The ESFj way of life is foreign to me.

    If you realize you can't change them, and they can't change you - wouldn't it be best to just ignore each other? (haha I realize that's bad advice your grandma gives you but I don't know what else to say)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.

    You have to remember that reality exists regardless of whether a person is Ne or Se. There is a right answer, and that is what you should be defending, not yourself or somebody else.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    With my brother and his best friend. Both of them are Ne/Si valuing, while I'm Se/Ni valuing. What happened was just another example of my despising Ne, while coming up against people who value it. They take my Ne-devaluing as complete arrogance and confidence in my own opinion. Which it is, really. But I simply can't deal with it; that is, it's very hard for me to like these kind of people and respect them and their opinions. I get the same from cracka, from Jem, and from BurntOrange.

    The worst thing is, it would all be okay if only I could stick to my guns and actually believe what I'm saying the whole time. But I just... can't. I start out thinking I'm right, but by the end of my attack on them, I know that they're right. I know that I shouldn't be imposing on their way of life, but I just can't help it. They always come back with something like "well, why are you any more right? You do whatever you're doing, and leave us be". It's unfair that I should show my outright problem with what they do, and it's unfair that I should say "you're too materialistic; you obsess over the slightest things" or "you need to do this" or "you must consider these phenomena as I have already done so". I want everyone to be like me in their train of thought, because I think they're wrong and I'm right. It's not so much what they do that I end up approving of (because I really, really don't), but their opinion that I shouldn't be going on the offensive when it comes to how they're living their lives. Especially when I preach (see my thread on Having a "Life") the same.

    This is probably one of the first issues in my life about which I have NO IDEA how to deal with. Please help. Everyone.
    Here's a phrase that may make your life much easier: "In my opinion..." Or variants thereof. It's wonderful that you aren't completely certain that what you say is right; if you were, you'd be a pain to deal with (ever tried to argue with someone who thinks he/she is right regardless?). And quite frankly, you're not going to like everybody or what they do. In the end, you cannot make anyone do something he/she doesn't want to do; that's something I have had to come to grips with recently. I also think there's a lot to be said for when, where, and how one expresses his opinion.

    Other than that, what type are you? Not sure whether you're SEE or SLE.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    It's wonderful that you aren't completely certain that what you say is right; if you were, you'd be a pain to deal with (ever tried to argue with someone who thinks he/she is right regardless?).
    Umm... he is, usually, that type of person to deal with...lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    Do we not all, as human beings, have an instinctive drive to do something contrary to what is rational?
    You are on an escapade of self-contradictions and rationalizations.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by mn0good View Post
    Why don't you stop kidding yourself and admit that the tough-guy, ESTp fan-club image is just a cover-up for how much you wish you were an Ne-ego. It's ok, you know. We know how awesome we are

    No, but in all seriousness, I think it's a matter of take a step back from yourself and recognizing your own strengths, as well as those of others. So when your Ne-ego friends make you feel like a dink for not considering certain things, take a step back from yourself and see how those things fit into your idea and then readjust. It doesn't mean you have to let go of your position entirely. Firmness of mind and the ability to sort between fact and fiction is a strength of Se-valuers. Sometimes the solidity of your own way of thinking can cloud your ability to see all the possibilities, but similarily as an Ne-valuer I have a hard time coming to a firm conclusion or decision. So when your Ne friends seem like they're ripping apart your opinions or ideas, instead you can look at those things and pick out what's good from what they're offering you.

    You say you want a steak, they offer you a platter of a variety of choice meats instead. You can still pick which is the best one. Sometimes you'll stick with the steak and say that your first choice was the right choice, other times you'll change your mind and realize that you hadn't thought about the possibility of lobster. You're still making good use of your strengths, while recognizing the contribution of your friends as well.
    Thank God for

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Here's a phrase that may make your life much easier: "In my opinion..." Or variants thereof. It's wonderful that you aren't completely certain that what you say is right; if you were, you'd be a pain to deal with (ever tried to argue with someone who thinks he/she is right regardless?). And quite frankly, you're not going to like everybody or what they do. In the end, you cannot make anyone do something he/she doesn't want to do; that's something I have had to come to grips with recently. I also think there's a lot to be said for when, where, and how one expresses his opinion.

    Other than that, what type are you? Not sure whether you're SEE or SLE.
    If I was SEE, many things would need to be rethought out. There is some difference of opinion on my creative function, but I'm generally seen as Se ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    You are on an escapade of self-contradictions and rationalizations.
    Yeah I can't really escape it. I just don't want to admit I'm wrong. Fine, I contradicted myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Thank God for
    You got it Pontiac, any time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Here's a phrase that may make your life much easier: "In my opinion..." Or variants thereof.
    i say "to me," all of the time. (if you go back over all of my posts, it's there. ) most people still don't hear it though and take what i'm saying as me being closed minded to anything other than what i'm saying. i wish people would realize i say "to me," for this reason!!!! i have a strong opinion but i am still open to others'.

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    I had an SLE business partner once. While I liked the guy, I found it difficult at times to hold a discussion with him because he was often unable to admit his mistakes.

    At the time I didn't know about socionics, so I simply called it being "overly proud". I now think that it has to do with the Fe HA: SLEs often try to hide their mistakes because they subconsciously believe that they are not worth being liked/loved if seen as faulty. I have seen the same in ILEs.
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    Is this something that still wants addressing? By someone like me?
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Is this something that still wants addressing? By someone like me?
    go for it. i'd like to hear what you have to say.

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