I would think they'd be more likely to be the same, but I still think there could be some level of chance in how it happens. And there have been people in this thread who say they know identical twins of different types.Originally Posted by FDG
I would think they'd be more likely to be the same, but I still think there could be some level of chance in how it happens. And there have been people in this thread who say they know identical twins of different types.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
I agree; I've said that mine is only an opinion and that I can't deliver an argument that proves with certainty that identical twins are of the same type, really. However, in my experience - which means that I'm limited to the identical twins I have met - they were of the same type (they tended to get along with the same people, have girlfriend with similar personalities, have very similar friends, have similar life-ambitions, levels of energy, talkativness, etc).
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Yes, isn't it. Indeed it is very interesting.
You are a perfect example of an- leading type that can see endless of possibilities but has no way of determining their value. Your judgment is totally absent.
Woodford (2003) describes a popular class of neo-Wicksellian models in which monetary policy is characterized by an interest-rate rule, and the money market and financial institutions are typically not even modeled. Critics contend that these models are incomplete and unsuitable for monetary-policy evaluation. Our Banks and Bonds model starts with a standard neo-Wicksellian model and then adds banks and a role for bonds in the liquidity management of households and banks. The Banks and Bonds model gives a more complete description of the economy, but the neo-Wicksellian model has the virtue of simplicity. Our purpose here is to see if the neo-Wicksellian model gives a reasonably accurate account of macroeconomic behavior in the more complete Banks and Bonds model. We do this by comparing the models' second moments, variance decompositions and impulse response functions. We also study the role of monetary aggregates and velocity in predicting inflation in the two models.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
There is one pair of famous identical twins that we can type.
The Kaczynski brothers: Jaroslaw, former prime minister, and Lech, still the president:
Jaroslaw:
Lech:
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Old thread but now that´Lech Kaczynski is dead we should type him and his brother...
100% agree. People who really believe in the existence of identical twins with different types probably don't understand the basics of socionics and are bad at typing...
What do you think why Russian experts say that type is inborn and genetically determined?
As discussed in Mariëlla's thread, we have no scientific reasons yet that proof that type is genetic, partly or not. I'm no expert myself, so I just did a google search and found this:
Twin Differences - Why Identical Twins Are Different
Of course this is about personality and not type, but it give us something to think about.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
I find it hard to believe these particular twins were of the same type, even making allowances for the fact that one twin usually dominates (psychologically).
Also, see what consentingadult and Mariella said about early development. If you believe it's genetic only, you probably don't understand biology. Brain is a part of fetus' which is most affected by substances (hormones, but not only) it's exposed to. Often one twin is slightly bigger and stronger than the other - and probably had more exposure to whatever was in mother's blood. This sort of slight variation could affect the brain, but not necessarily less sensitive parts of the body, in the visible way. Yet the type would be still inborn.
It's speculative, but no less so than assuming genetics only determine the brain development and consequently type. There's also a matter of gene expression - it's affected by many factors, not all of which are understood as of now.
It makes me wonder, if you were to date one half of an identical pair, and they also had the same personality type, then wouldn't it be hard to not want them both?? What a tricky situation.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
If you cheated and got pregnant, a paternity test wouldn't show it.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
really!? wow. That would make it even more difficult! lol hmm...maybe I should find a very attractive set of ISTp twins. And when one was off doing his ISTp alone activities for days at a time, I'd "hang out" with the other....JUST KIDDING.
Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)
I can be my own twin. :wink: :wink:really!? wow. That would make it even more difficult! lol hmm...maybe I should find a very attractive set of ISTp twins. And when one was off doing his ISTp alone activities for days at a time, I'd "hang out" with the other....JUST KIDDING.
ISTp
SLI
Enneagram 5 with a side of wings.
ummmmmmm...I'm scratching my head in trying to figure out why they would not have the same brain...hard wire....data center. that would be kind of like saying that they don't share the same genes when we know, already, that they do.
"Identical, or monozygotic, twins develop from a single egg/sperm combination that splits a few days after conception. Their DNA originates from a single source, thus their genetic makeup is the same and the characteristics that are determined by genetics will be similar. Monozygotic twins are always of the same gender, except in extremely rare cases of chromosomal defect.
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Because people are complicated, and not all biological things are controlled by genetics. Or controlled by genetics 100%. You need to be more open-minded to different possibilities.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Yes, I thought everyone knew that. The issue is this erroneous assumption you're making that "same genes" has to mean "same personality type."
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Same morphology (shape) same body processes.
Biology/genes determines what morphology a plant will be right? Well the same thing happends with people. We are no exception to the scientific process. If you mate with a certain type then the gene interplay will produce one of 16 type.
It just said that identical twins share the same genes. How much more same and truth is ther to that specific situation? That is scientific proof.
Do you have evidence that a tomato is different then a bean? Why? because they look differently from one another and more then that they have different energy and energy storing processes.
Why? because type is basics not everything about personality and actions and behaviors or moods and mood swings.. Basic stuff like are you N or S
Ne-do you expend possibilities
Se-do you focus on space
Last edited by Beautiful sky; 04-30-2010 at 06:54 PM.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Not exactly. People are more complicated than plants, and what a plant will be is also affected by what soil it's grown in, if its' given fertilizer, etc. I mean a tomato plant will always be a tomato plant, and people will always be people, but some stuff is not caused by genetics.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Yeah, people of the same socionics types can be very very different. That's why identical twins can have a different personality and still basically always be the same type.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
There are people here who have said they know idential twins who aren't the same type, and it's also been shown that people's brain development is seriously affected by things other than genetics. You are also making huge assumptions. It could be genetic, or it could be partially genetic, or it could be partially random, or it could have other factors affecting it. No one knows, but it's silly to make assumptions when we have no evidence to lead us to those assumptions.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
I'd rather they were bisexual, in this kind of scenario.really!? wow. That would make it even more difficult! lol hmm...maybe I should find a very attractive set of ISTp twins. And when one was off doing his ISTp alone activities for days at a time, I'd "hang out" with the other....JUST KIDDING.
Mmm yeah of course I speak from my experience, I know 3 identical twins couples and they're all same-type, unlikely to be caused by other factors (they do have different interests, different personality, etc - so I don't deny that brain development isn't affected by other factors - just that that part of brain development doesn't contain socionics type). Still, somebody else might have different observations and reach different conclusions, that's fair. 3 is a low number, however identical twins are rare...
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
no
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
It is only scientific proof that they share the same genes, not that they share the same personality type. We dont' know what causes personality type.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
If a tomato had the same personality type as all the other tomatoes, and shared the same genes, and looked the same, would that be proof for you?
Personality type of a tomato:
Loves sun and water and soil
Oh wait we can't measure the personality type of a tomato (because we don't speak the same language), but we can only estimate it (based on it's behaviors when presented in certain circumstances).
But we can divide humans into morphological similarities and test for that.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
if tomatoes had personalities, it might prove something about tomatoes. Tomatoes don't have brains and it's specifically brain development we're talking about.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
tomatoes have brains, why else could they grow and die? Their brains don't look like ours. Theirs is more of an intercellular connection.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Are you a tree hugger by any chance???
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
It's not that easy, Mariella's objections are right because you can't easily isolate the factors; for example, identical twins tend to always grow in the same family environment, thus it would be akin to comparing tomatos that are grown on the same soil: part of the similarity could be caused by the terrain. Of course, there's an easy objection - many non-identical brothers and sister grow to be different types in spite of pertaining to the same family, etc.
Let's say that the consensus on this matter can only be reached on a personal basis, since personality-type diagnosis is not an objective process.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
lololol yes I am
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
They don't have actual brains. Human brains are very complicated, and their development continues up to about the age of 3. Brains could be affected by a great many things, up to and including affecting, creating, or influencing personality type. Maybe the starting point is genetic, but as neuropathways are created the paths they take determine type, and maybe that is not chosen by genetics. Or maybe its' influenced by genetics but not 100% chosen by genetics. The issue is that we don't know.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Why am I not surprised??
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Biology unlike psychology is an actual hard science...that's why I like it.Why am I not surprised??
I'm using my intuition to determine the most likely outcome based on the possibilities given by the circumstances that is created or presented. LOLOL I put that about us in my signature for you to see.
NeFi-expands possibilities then draws conclusions; You look at all the possibilities.
FiNe-limits/processes possibilities to draw conclusion; I look at the most ideal/possible possibility.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Yeah, I agree 100%. Like, let's say it's womb environment, or partially womb environment. Identical twins would have to have at least a very similar womb environment. One twin is usually bigger which indicates there is at least a slight difference in environemtn but its' the same womb so there couldn't be a huge variation. And they're probably fed the same way, and they're both digesting food and drink the same mom had in utero.
I agree with the last part too.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Exactly, why is this so hard to understand?
ETA: lol @ you new sig!
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
Genes are just that, genes. To have one means that in right conditions, when the gene is expressed, a certain protein will be produced. There are many different enzymes (proteins) involved in processes such as hormone production.
If you get a hormone from outside source (like your mother's body before being born), it works the same as your own.
The point we're arguing isn't how the body works during your life (which is probably largely irrelevant seeing that hormonal therapies and such don't seem to affect personality as such, much less sociotype), but how the brain developed, especially before birth, when even slight variation in hormones (and not only) levels can have effect on it.
You can assume the type is inborn, and still there's room for differences between identical twins. Inborn doesn't equal genetical.
Assuming you'r EII, this is indeed your problem: you draw conclusions in the absense of any kind of evidence. Mariëlla draws the conclusion that with the current body of knowledge, no concusions can be drawn.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
So how do you type them?
Yes, that is true. It is possible that Jaroslaw is homosexual and Lech was not. Might depend on the level of testosterone they got...
Again the intereting question:
Why do Russian experts believe that type is genetically determined?
Probably because they observed enough identical twins who are the same type. Some Russian speakers could certainly find it out...
That's not a problem with EII's.
Dual type
Enneagram 5 (wings either 4 or 6)?
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
Possibly. It is, however, your problem.
“I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote