Differences between LSI-ISTj and SLE-ESTp

[redbaron]

I know you asked for personal, real-world experience, but something that might be helpful is to look at the activity relations between Maxim-Esenin and Zhukov-Hamlet @ socionic.ru written by stratievskaya. I know wading through russian translations can be tedious, but I've found those to be informative in comparing particularly LSI and SLE, and IEI and EIE. I know at one time I was putting them into better english. . . don't know how much I actually got done, but should be on my computer someplace. Can PM what I find if you want red.

yes please! Would love that!

[redbaron]

So easy to initially convince, harder to keep convinced.

maybe? yeah, I think so.

[jet city woman]

Usually true, but not always. I can fall for something easily when it comes to my weaknesses. I find that my enneagram type 6 is a more accurate way to describe the situation: "It's really weird; I can be skeptical, even cynical, about all kinds of things, and then turn around and fall for something hook, line, and

Better way for me to put it: give a lot of facts and evidence, then they would be convinced. But then they would stay convinced. And like you say, the emotional factor could work well, too.

I'm not going to be convinced by a human being fully. To fully be convinced, it takes resources (my own reading and experiences). But I CAN be mind-fucked lol.......only if I am willing.

[Codie]

I generally see all perspectives, and I actually notice that many people are more hard-headed and stubborn, and close-minded concerning their beliefs than I am. I do argue, but it's not because I don't see other people's perspectives. It takes many to make a world. My belief systems are also constantly in a state of growth and change, as I take in new information. (When it comes to a "fact", and not a belief, it's a different story, although most of these are arguable too lol.)).

Hmm yeah that makes sense, I didn't mean that LSIs can't "see" other perspectives, more that they have a harder time conceding to the ones that conflict with their own. They generally take a long time to change their mind once they've formed n opinion.

I also think that most of the time, there is no "wrong", only someone else's perceptions and ideas.

Thats true...

[Ozz]

I'm not going to be convinced by a human being fully. To fully be convinced, it takes resources (my own reading and experiences). But I CAN be mind-fucked lol.......only if I am willing.

I used to think so. But lately, I am seeing some evidences that there are subconscious methods to cause a change in belief overtime without being noticed by the subject, even in an LSI.

[Blaze]

I'm not going to be convinced by a human being fully. To fully be convinced, it takes resources (my own reading and experiences). But I CAN be mind-fucked lol.......only if I am willing.

Mind fucked, butt fucked, regular fucked.....it's all good. LOL!

[Haze]

Despite all the personality differences and variables, I think what it boils down to is what function the person really thrives on, so Se or Ti.

SLE vs LSI

Does this person use a lot of Ti?
Are they happy and comfortable with this? --> LSI-Ti
Are they an intense neurotic mess? --> SLE-Ti

or

Does this person use a lot of Se?
Yes? Are they happy? --> SLE-Se
No? Neurotic OCD mess? --> LSI-Se

[Beautiful sky]

If the only thing to think upon is an apple, the Ti will think on it in a conceptual way, their thoughts will flow inwards, one thought will lead to another, lead to another, developing a life of it's own
The extravert will seek other apples

[ambivalent existence]

Despite all the personality differences and variables, I think what it boils down to is what function the person really thrives on, so Se or Ti.

SLE vs LSI

Does this person use a lot of Ti?
Are they happy and comfortable with this? --> LSI-Ti
Are they an intense neurotic mess? --> SLE-Ti

or

Does this person use a lot of Se?
Yes? Are they happy? --> SLE-Se
No? Neurotic OCD mess? --> LSI-Se

interesting viewpoint, but I know non-neurotic SLE-Ti's.

why would a contact subtype have to be a lot of neurotic mess?

[Suz]

I remember reading somewhere that neuroticism happens when someone is in a situation where weak IMs are expected of him/her for too long, usually by opposing quadra members or supervisor.

[ambivalent existence]

I remember reading somewhere that neuroticism happens when someone is in a situation where weak IMs are expected of him/her for too long, usually by opposing quadra members or supervisor.

how is that related to creative/contact subtypes?

[Suz]

how is that related to creative/contact subtypes?

It isn't... that's my point.

I dont think saying Ti-SLEs are "neurotic" is an accurate statement because any type can develop neurosis in tough situations like i mentioned.

[jet city woman]

It isn't... that's my point.

I dont think saying Ti-SLEs are "neurotic" is an accurate statement because any type can develop neurosis in tough situations like i mentioned.

Yea, pretty much any type can become "neurotic."

Despite all the personality differences and variables, I think what it boils down to is what function the person really thrives on, so Se or Ti.

SLE vs LSI

Does this person use a lot of Ti?
Are they happy and comfortable with this? --> LSI-Ti
Are they an intense neurotic mess? --> SLE-Ti

or

Does this person use a lot of Se?
Yes? Are they happy? --> SLE-Se
No? Neurotic OCD mess? --> LSI-Se

To believe that everyone of any type is "neurotic" or OCD, or permanently unhappy or happy, is just ridiculous, especially given the diversity that enneagram provides.

Unreal.

I'm usually happy, Ti is my dominant function regardless of subtype and I use it most often obv, and I've never been OCD or "neurotic", although I've been unhealthy at times with different issues. In fact, neurosis no longer even exists as a diagnosis: "The American Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) has eliminated the category of "Neurosis", reflecting a decision by the editors to provide descriptions of behavior as opposed to hidden psychological mechanisms as diagnostic criteria.,[3] and, according to The American Heritage Medical Dictionary, it is "no longer used in psychiatric diagnosis"."

Now if I take a lot of speed, I can prob be diagnosed with some nervous disorder lol. Other than that, not even close. There are tons of women (and men) I know who are WAY more anxious and worried than I will ever be. It seems to have little to do with type, actually.

[redbaron]

It seems to have little to do with type, actually.

agreed.

[Absurd]

There's not much of a difference to me, both get on my nerves pretty fast.

[pluie]

I know an LSI and am progressively getting to know him more, as he is one of my housemates, and I believe I am fairly acquainted with an SLE. The main difference I see is with regards to rigidity. The LSI is just much more restrained in his interactions and mannerisms. His energy is just quite contained. He is far quieter than the SLE I know. The SLE is always starting a ruckus, making crude jokes and just being stupid -- the LSI withdraws from large group events. He certainly has an appreciation for chaos though, aesthetically speaking. Both of them are quite capable of being frustrating duche bags though. Both very capable of ignoring me which drives me crazy and pisses me off, but I feel the need to try to get their attention. The LSI is easier, since he seems to feel obligated to a certain ethical code regarding how he functions in society. That's where we part in compatibility - I say fuck societal bullshit (though in an ironic way... at least partially) and he says "Haven't you read Plato's Republic?" when I try to steal something that's way overpriced at the coffee shop at my school. Lol. Anyways, now I'm just sharing

[Beautiful sky]

They both trust what sounds and looks right, but the LSI needs to see them in order before he can conclude what he sees and hears agrees with their understanding; or be convinced of their understanding.

[redbaron]

I know another male LSI now. I'm trying to figure out if his wife (who I adore!) is EIE or ESE. She's one of the two. I always thought of her as EIE but when I was just at her house I realized how meticulous she keeps it and now I'm wondering. Also, she's pretty focused on the house as such. Just had the kitchen redone (and it didn't really need it), is very hyper about keeping physically fit, cooks a lot, etc. I know that's surface information and might not mean a thing. But it caused me to question it.

ANYway, the LSI husband is great too. I like how he stands back and keeps his opinions to himself until just the right time, and then it all comes out. And he's pretty opinionated! There are rules, you know. Procedures to follow. And they will be respected. haha But I also sense him wanting someone with Fe to agree with him. He looks for ethical back-up, if you will, so as to be certain that others can be convinced of his way. It's cute.

Also, some SLEs can be stubborn! I know one! He's rigid but he's rigid by HIS OWN standards, his own reasons. (Ti-sub by the way)

[Beautiful sky]

I know you asked for personal, real-world experience, but something that might be helpful is to look at the activity relations between Maxim-Esenin and Zhukov-Hamlet @ socionic.ru written by stratievskaya. I know wading through russian translations can be tedious, but I've found those to be informative in comparing particularly LSI and SLE, and IEI and EIE. I know at one time I was putting them into better english. . . don't know how much I actually got done, but should be on my computer someplace. Can PM what I find if you want red.

yes please! Would love that!

^ this is an interaction that shows how one needs some function substituted; in essence, Redbarron is asking squark to do the thinking and sorting out of tedious information for her.

[redbaron]

^ this is an interaction that shows how one needs some function substituted; in essence, Redbarron is asking squark to do the thinking and sorting out of tedious information for her.

yes that's exactly what I'm asking. And she did it for me and it was great!

[Beautiful sky]

yes that's exactly what I'm asking. And she did it for me and it was great!

Does this mean that you're officially EIE now?

Aren't duals GREAT?
I want one

[redbaron]

Does this mean that you're officially EIE now?

Aren't duals GREAT?
I want one

No it doesn't mean I'm EIE. It just means that she did what I asked, and that I do indeed appreciate Ti!

[Beautiful sky]

No it doesn't mean I'm EIE. It just means that she did what I asked, and that I do indeed appreciate Ti!

One of these days, Redbaron, that Ti's gonna give you lots of lovin.

[redbaron]

One of these days, Redbaron, that Ti's gonna give you lots of lovin.

I'll take it!

[glam]

I'm trying to figure out if his wife (who I adore!) is EIE or ESE. She's one of the two. I always thought of her as EIE but when I was just at her house I realized how meticulous she keeps it and now I'm wondering. Also, she's pretty focused on the house as such. Just had the kitchen redone (and it didn't really need it), is very hyper about keeping physically fit, cooks a lot, etc. I know that's surface information and might not mean a thing. But it caused me to question it.

i think that sounds pretty consistent with EIE actually. that behavior could be a manifestation of weak, neurotic Si-PoLR rather than actual strong Si.

if you've ever seen that show Parks and Recreation, Rob Lowe's character plays a neurotic Si-PoLR who is a good example of someone fixated on their PoLR - he's a health nut who's obsessed with keeping healthy & physically fit, exercises all the time, takes a ton of supplements & vitamins, etc.

[redbaron]

i think that sounds pretty consistent with EIE actually. that behavior could be a manifestation of weak, neurotic Si-PoLR rather than actual strong Si.

if you've ever seen that show Parks and Recreation, Rob Lowe's character plays a neurotic Si-PoLR who is a good example of someone fixated on their PoLR - he's a health nut who's obsessed with keeping healthy & physically fit, exercises all the time, takes a ton of supplements & vitamins, etc.

good! that means they're duals! I really love and get along well with both of them!

[dinki]

Oh man! So different! Sometimes I find it really hard to see Se in all the LSIs i know, because it is SO unlike my SLE's Se! It's insane how different they are! I was unsure how they really were in real life, because I'd only come into really brief contact with one I nearly dated (an old bf may have been LSI, but I don't know and that was ages ago so I can't remember!) but once you meet one or so, they are so unqiue in how they are, that they become easy to spot. I don't know if they are rare, or I just spend too much time with preppy Fe based egos . But they are so fucking refreshing.

Okay, sorry for the total ramble off ! LSIs are very calm and controlled (from my limited experience), where as SLEs tend to have this energy - like aggressive outwards energy, or ball of life energy or an all over the place energeticness - their energy is so apparent. LSIs don't have this energy to them at all. They seem so emotionally calm...their happiness and excitement is calm and measured. They fascinate me! Also observing them, you can see their mind ticking away, they seem to think everything through very well. Where as SLEs just tend to speak their mind straight off - they are impulsive, they have little restraint and don't seem to often think things through very well!

The ones I know seem really heady and not very talkative compared to the SLE' I know who are VERY talkative and VERY extroverted. I have a good friend who is LSI, you need to lead the conversation and open her up loads. SLEs it feels more you need to steer the conversation in the right direction, they could ramble at you for hours...where as LSIs seem very conscious of this. They seem to have an uncertainty about social relations and people which manifests in a coldness or reluctance to open up. I know SLEs are uncertain but they tend to just blunder through an awkward situation - like they will be bent on FORCING the acceptance from someone who probably never will accept them - haha cuteee.

[Phantom]

Especially SLE-Ti and LSI-Se.

[Pookie]

Well, one's a little bit country. And the other, well, they're a little bit rock n' roll.

[Amber]

Sadly I couldn't tell you. What I do know is that you ain't either.

[Aylen]

I get to watch an SLE and LSI interact frequently and from my observations the SLE is more laid back and easy going. The LSI acts like a drill sergeant in comparison but the SLE does not seem to mind and he actually has a way of chilling her out and even getting her to smile. I have watched them go from actively disliking each other to forming a friendly relationship based on mutual respect, which is something I admit I could and could not see coming. Maybe more like I wanted the SLE to always see things my way but now he can sort of get me to see her point of view. He, in a way, is a bridge between the LSI and me.

Both are very hard workers. The LSI even more than the SLE. The LSI is more organized I suppose. The SLE more calculating in their actions and how the outcome will please them. The SLE seems more practical and aware of his surroundings in many ways. The LSI seems to have that laser like focus which I sometimes associate with SLE-Ti. Sometimes the SLE is more like the muscle in their interactions and he just does what he is told but only when he is ready. He has proven himself her equal and to to see her respect someone is something pretty awesome since it is rare. She used to call him a boy all the time (derogatory sense) now she refers to him as a man. Honestly I can't tell who has the upper-hand in the situation.

SLE is more practical and down to earth and can be a total goofball when he is in the mood. He seems pretty in tune with nature (but so does the LSI and they enjoy gardening together). Sees what needs to be done but will not be dictated to on how to do it or when. Does not follow the rules and will find a loophole, when needed, to prove his point. Does not back down from LSI in her bitch mode.

LSI is more rigid, an overseer and a bit of a nag. Usually sees what needs to be done and will want it done NOW not later. She can get her hands dirty but I think she prefers to have others do the heavy lifting, sts. Follows and even creates rules and expects most to follow them so she tends to be the enforcer as well. She will listen to the SLE's suggestions in situations where she would get defensive if it came from another person.

Yes, these people are correctly typed and this is a real world relationship. They seem so different outwardly but get along pretty well. I don't know enough socionics terms to explain it in a more logical way so....real talk.

Edit: The LSI seems like a more "devoted" person when she cares about whatever but it still comes off as detached somehow. The SLE seems more focused on himself but is warmer and can be very loyal.

SLE is sp/sx according to the quizzes
LSI is probably sp/so but thinks taking quizzes a waste of her time, usually.

I am not 100% sure about the stackings but for now they seem ok.

[Phantom]

Sadly I couldn't tell you. What I do know is that you ain't either.

Then what I am, in your opinion? And how did you arrive at that conclusion?

[Beautiful sky]

LSI are "inspectors" therefore they trust only the things that are available to their senses...ehat they can hear see and touch. They are quiet reflectors who makr systems to approach a task. SLE are not as micromanaging and let people do their wotk although they tok can be direct and confident in their approach to others. SLE tend to be more of experiencers and LSI analytical.

[bolong]

It's not that hard to tell EP temperament apart from IJ, and this is probably the biggest difference between them. But it's only obvious if they are both right in front of you.

But I think SLE-Ti is much more of a slinker in the shadows, doesn't interfere in group activites or try to direct others too much - would rather slip away and do their own thing. Whereas LSI-Se jumps into the spotlight and enjoys it and orders people around.

[Words]

I get to watch an SLE and LSI interact frequently and from my observations the SLE is more laid back and easy going. The LSI acts like a drill sergeant in comparison but the SLE does not seem to mind and he actually has a way of chilling her out and even getting her to smile. I have watched them go from actively disliking each other to forming a friendly relationship based on mutual respect, which is something I admit I could and could not see coming. Maybe more like I wanted the SLE to always see things my way but now he can sort of get me to see her point of view. He, in a way, is a bridge between the LSI and me.

Both are very hard workers. The LSI even more than the SLE. The LSI is more organized I suppose. The SLE more calculating in their actions and how the outcome will please them. The SLE seems more practical and aware of his surroundings in many ways. The LSI seems to have that laser like focus which I sometimes associate with SLE-Ti. Sometimes the SLE is more like the muscle in their interactions and he just does what he is told but only when he is ready. He has proven himself her equal and to to see her respect someone is something pretty awesome since it is rare. She used to call him a boy all the time (derogatory sense) now she refers to him as a man. Honestly I can't tell who has the upper-hand in the situation.

SLE is more practical and down to earth and can be a total goofball when he is in the mood. He seems pretty in tune with nature (but so does the LSI and they enjoy gardening together). Sees what needs to be done but will not be dictated to on how to do it or when. Does not follow the rules and will find a loophole, when needed, to prove his point. Does not back down from LSI in her bitch mode.

LSI is more rigid, an overseer and a bit of a nag. Usually sees what needs to be done and will want it done NOW not later. She can get her hands dirty but I think she prefers to have others do the heavy lifting, sts. Follows and even creates rules and expects most to follow them so she tends to be the enforcer as well. She will listen to the SLE's suggestions in situations where she would get defensive if it came from another person.

Yes, these people are correctly typed and this is a real world relationship. They seem so different outwardly but get along pretty well. I don't know enough socionics terms to explain it in a more logical way so....real talk.

Edit: The LSI seems like a more "devoted" person when she cares about whatever but it still comes off as detached somehow. The SLE seems more focused on himself but is warmer and can be very loyal.

SLE is sp/sx according to the quizzes
LSI is probably sp/so but thinks taking quizzes a waste of her time, usually.

I am not 100% sure about the stackings but for now they seem ok.

This is a fucking awesome post.

[The Foundation]

SLE's manipulate logical hierarchies and structure to service their whims and desires.
LSI's establish logical hierarchies and structure through the use of willpower and volitional force.

LSI's establish the systems that SLEs use to their own ends. This reflects the opposing temperament: "the only good use of structure, hierarchies, and principles is using them to get what I want (Ep on Ij)" and "the only good use of applying physical or psychological pressure and volitional force is so that there can be order" (Ij on Ep).

Thus, even though they value the same elements, they use them to different ends, creating major differences. Firstly, the SLE will be more impulsive and whimsical (Ep temperament) and the LSI will be more restrained and rigid (Ij temperament). Secondly, SLE's logic is used primarily for justification of someone questioning their actions, LSI's logic is used solely for its own end, to establish logical order and organization. Thirdly, SLE's thrive in physical chaos and in-the-moment situations where they can just simply act and accept what is happening in front of them, LSI's are displeased with physical chaos and are generally very fearful of chaos to begin with, and thus methodically identify it, classify it, and organize it to reduce the net entropy of the situation to zero (preferably).

In short,

SLEs - physically assertive people who act on their own impulses and desires and then use sensible reasoning to justify or to explain their own actions to people ( is manipulative)
LSIs - fastidious and orderly people who are concerned with making sure everything is clearly defined and structured, using volitional sensing to assure that order is established ( is manipulative)

[bolong]

SLE's manipulate logical hierarchies and structure to service their whims and desires.
LSI's establish logical hierarchies and structure through the use of willpower and volitional force.

LSI's establish the systems that SLEs use to their own ends. This reflects the opposing temperament: "the only good use of structure, hierarchies, and principles is using them to get what I want (Ep on Ij)" and "the only good use of applying physical or psychological pressure and volitional force is so that there can be order" (Ij on Ep).

Thus, even though they value the same elements, they use them to different ends, creating major differences. Firstly, the SLE will be more impulsive and whimsical (Ep temperament) and the LSI will be more restrained and rigid (Ij temperament). Secondly, SLE's logic is used primarily for justification of someone questioning their actions, LSI's logic is used solely for its own end, to establish logical order and organization. Thirdly, SLE's thrive in physical chaos and in-the-moment situations where they can just simply act and accept what is happening in front of them, LSI's are displeased with physical chaos and are generally very fearful of chaos to begin with, and thus methodically identify it, classify it, and organize it to reduce the net entropy of the situation to zero (preferably).

In short,

SLEs - physically assertive people who act on their own impulses and desires and then use sensible reasoning to justify or to explain their own actions to people ( is manipulative)
LSIs - fastidious and orderly people who are concerned with making sure everything is clearly defined and structured, using volitional sensing to assure that order is established ( is manipulative)

This is very good, and I especially agree that SLE's logic is for justifying their actions when others question it.

However I disagree that LSI is fearful of physical chaos - as Se creative I think they enjoy it just as much. It gives them a chance to throw their weight around, which they are pretty good at doing, but unlike SLE they refrain from doing it in normal situations because they are mindful of how it might affect others. In a situation where they don't have to consider how everyone else would be affected, they will delightedly jump into mosh pit.

[The Foundation]

This is very good, and I especially agree that SLE's logic is for justifying their actions when others question it.

However I disagree that LSI is fearful of physical chaos - as Se creative I think they enjoy it just as much. It gives them a chance to throw their weight around, which they are pretty good at doing, but unlike SLE they refrain from doing it in normal situations because they are mindful of how it might affect others. In a situation where they don't have to consider how everyone else would be affected, they will delightedly jump into mosh pit.

Yeah. I was attempting to demonstrate the sense of opposition that the LSI has with the Ep temperament. Truthfully, LSI only fears chaos that involves too much raw potential that may allow a situation to turn really bad really quickly ( Phobia). and the physical chaos to them is sort of like their job, it's what they are good at fixing.

"because they are mindful of how it might affect others. In a situation where they don't have to consider how everyone else would be affected, they will delightedly jump into mosh pit."

I like this. It illustrates the accepting element (affecting people emotionally) of the LSI and how it is a major influence on the overall directive of the type ( directive), whereas the SLE with as a producing element might find it as a sort of side dish or nice touch to .

[Phantom]

Cool. It seems I am an SLE-Ti.
How would you differentiate Casual-Determinist from Holographic-Panoramic? Preferably real-life examples. The terminology is difficult to understand.

[Pookie]

Casual determinist - talks in a manner like, "if this than that."