MBTI =/= Socionics!

[FDG]

Te-Ni's are logically strong in the sense of arguement and verbal capacity.

Try using your argument and strong logic against an ESFp bent on getting his/her way through sheer . Logic and sound arguments are meaningless in such cases. The kind of "tough" is the ability, or the inclination, to say things like "don't mess up with me, don't try to confuse me with your fuzzy numbers, whatever they mean. We're doing things my way because that's the way it's going to be. No, I don't care that I said the exact opposite 5 minutes ago. What does it matter what I said 5 minutes ago? Now is now." Etc etc.

ahahahaha!!!!

boy do i know this! those ESFps get their way through sheer repetition and bulldozing. in my office, sometimes by feigning memory loss that the topic was ever discussed at any time in the past, let alone yesterday. even if they're too polite to keep arguing, and can't overcome the logic, tomorrow they come again to ask for the same impossible thing, as though they never asked for it before! my colleague, also an engineer, tried to explain to one of the ESFps in sales, how the thing that they want is kind of illegal and against safe engineering practices - she tried to explain the rationale of why such a thing is inadvisable. he listened (or pretended to? with their strong Fi it's hard to gauge when they are really sincere and when they're faking it) then replied 'i don't care, i want it'.

That's why they need to be punched in the face.

[Expat]

lol werent you dishing on ESFps in jobs a month or two ago? Fess up! Spill the beans, there has to be a story behind this.

There's nothing to confess or any beans to spill, if by that you're implying that my comments on unbacked by logic are emotionally-driven or whatever, resulting from any one single experience or something of the sort.

I have had many such experiences with dominant people - several examples, and not only with ESFps, also with ESTps.

Even with ISFjs, who are my duals and with whom I usually get along great -- I had a major argument with one, she was using pseudo- full of holes, aimed at confirming her -based conclusions. When I started to point out the holes in her "logic", she shifted to and just said that that was what she thought and that was that.

So there is no "story" - - just a lot of data.

[Kirana]

lol werent you dishing on ESFps in jobs a month or two ago? Fess up! Spill the beans, there has to be a story behind this.

There's nothing to confess or any beans to spill, if by that you're implying that my comments on unbacked by logic are emotionally-driven or whatever, resulting from any one single experience or something of the sort.

I have had many such experiences with dominant people - several examples, and not only with ESFps, also with ESTps.

Even with ISFjs, who are my duals and with whom I usually get along great -- I had a major argument with one, she was using pseudo- full of holes, aimed at confirming her -based conclusions. When I started to point out the holes in her "logic", she shifted to and just said that that was what she thought and that was that.

So there is no "story" - - just a lot of data.

my mother's ISTj, and she does the above too. although usually her reasoning is sound, she has biases about certain things and makes conclusions based on them and tries to pass it off as unbiased. and then my dad and i would start to pick out the holes in the logic. then usually she'd end up saying, 'well, that's what i think anyway'. or, she'd use her 'mother' card and make me stop picking apart her arguments.

[Functianalyst]

MBTI=EXTX
Socionics=ENTp

However, the fact that I have an indepth interest in the subject(s) dimisses ESTP, and the fact that I am willing to remain open in discovering my true type may eliminate ENTJ.

Chances are great that I am ENTP/ENTp.

[Creepy-pokeball]

lol werent you dishing on ESFps in jobs a month or two ago? Fess up! Spill the beans, there has to be a story behind this.

There's nothing to confess or any beans to spill, if by that you're implying that my comments on unbacked by logic are emotionally-driven or whatever, resulting from any one single experience or something of the sort.

I have had many such experiences with dominant people - several examples, and not only with ESFps, also with ESTps.

Even with ISFjs, who are my duals and with whom I usually get along great -- I had a major argument with one, she was using pseudo- full of holes, aimed at confirming her -based conclusions. When I started to point out the holes in her "logic", she shifted to and just said that that was what she thought and that was that.

So there is no "story" - - just a lot of data.

Apparently there are multiple stories to be told if that much data has been accumulated in person. Unless you are some how "experiencing" via telepathy...? At any rate, it seems to be a reoccuring topic which is my my point which makes me wonder why it is in the first place. Im not really buying the fact that ENTj's are not likely to be verbally aggressive. I'd imagine all Ne, Se and Te primaries are. At least that has been my experience so far--even with the sweet ENFp friends that become extremely confrontational when you piss them off. Of the extroverts, Fe would probably use this as a last option, unless of course, they are overwhelmingly nurtured or supported to think it is okay to do so. But, I think, being verbally aggressive has some major social factors as well which makes it really difficult to sperate since the two Se's make up such a huge chunk of society and TeNi's do not (except on internet forums, apparently).

[Eidos]

Im not really buying the fact that ENTj's are not likely to be verbally aggressive. I'd imagine all Ne, Se and Te primaries are. At least that has been my experience so far--even with the sweet ENFp friends that become extremely confrontational when you piss them off.

Verbally "aggressive"? Why use such a strong word? Do you mean you think that ENTj's attack other people verbally, or that they like to argue? I wouldn't say ENTj's are aggressive - they are just opinionated. Their attitude is driven by logic (Te), not by feeling "pissed off" or frustrated. ENTj's will argue because they sincerely disagree with what you say, not because they want to get back at you or something else...

I think this stands in contrast to Se types that may sometimes disagree to get back at you, not necessarily because they really disagree. They want to achieve dominance and sometimes logic is just a means to an end :wink:

[Creepy-pokeball]

Not exactly get back. The pattern that I have seen, especially when in a competitive atmosphere, is to be the one as dominant or in prime control. Ive also seen repetitive usage of word play that is basically entrapment because they are baiting (using Ni) the opposing person arguing into a scenario that they are well versed in and know the predicted outcome. This is all the dichotomy of Fe which is likely to not want to even argue because they feel strained from even doing so. However, I do know ENFjs will do similar entrapment of word play but it seems to be in a humorous sense or to project a point (which is often tied to humor, in which case they later feel guilty for due to being an ass).

[Expat]

Apparently there are multiple stories to be told if that much data has been accumulated in person.

That is correct.

Not exactly get back. The pattern that I have seen, especially when in a competitive atmosphere, is to be the one as dominant or in prime control. Ive also seen repetitive usage of word play that is basically entrapment because they are baiting (using Ni) the opposing person arguing into a scenario that they are well versed in and know the predicted outcome.

First, I agree 100% with what Eidos wrote.

Second, what you just described is not the usual m.o. for an ENTj. We really stick to logic and facts in our arguments, not manipulation or entrapment via word play. What you described seemed to me to be a misinterpretation.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Are you sure? Ive seen in multple times. Maybe it is in partial selections of the whole for a specific reason? To be clear, I see this in competitive atmospheres like sports or gaming. I also see a different version of this with ENTps in similar atmospheres.

[Expat]

Well I can't speak for every ENTj in every situation, apart from the possibility that you mistyped them -- but I'll leave that out of the equation.

Sports and gaming seem to me to be areas where you can hardly use logical arguments to make a case or win an discussion, so I really don't see how that would translate into a conclusion of general behavior.

[Creepy-]

MBTI=EXTX
Socionics=ENTp

However, the fact that I have an indepth interest in the subject(s) dimisses ESTP, and the fact that I am willing to remain open in discovering my true type may eliminate ENTJ.

Chances are great that I am ENTP/ENTp.

I hope that's not anti-sensor bias....

Meet Herzy.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Ive typed them using these tools so we can argue the accuracy of the tools at our usage but we know where that goes lol...

Do you have WC3? If so I can record a game for you and show you what I mean for one particular ENTj. Their might be a veiwer for it without WC3, too. I'll check for that. Man if I could get both the ENTj and ENTp in the same game without them competing with each other as the same team then I'd have a perfect example but that never happens.

[Creepy-pokeball]

MBTI=EXTX
Socionics=ENTp

However, the fact that I have an indepth interest in the subject(s) dimisses ESTP, and the fact that I am willing to remain open in discovering my true type may eliminate ENTJ.

Chances are great that I am ENTP/ENTp.

I hope that's not anti-sensor bias....

Meet Herzy.

Yeah, seriously, no type bias please =( One could probably show a pattern for an interest in theory or not to true type but that still excludes the truthfullness that a non-intuitive could be honestly interested in theoretical knowledge and application.

[Expat]

I had to look for WCR in Wikipedia to know that you're talking about

Sorry, I never got much into computer games.

I'd say that in games - even in chess - it would be usual for any type to try to trap the opponent via some sort of manipulation or deception; for instance, that's one of the points of poker.

[Eidos]

Ive typed them using these tools so we can argue the accuracy of the tools at our usage but we know where that goes lol...

Do you have WC3? If so I can record a game for you and show you what I mean for one particular ENTj. Their might be a veiwer for it without WC3, too. I'll check for that. Man if I could get both the ENTj and ENTp in the same game without them competing with each other as the same team then I'd have a perfect example but that never happens.

Jadae, I don't think you can generalize personality traits to a whole group of people based on a specific person, in a limited context (a videogame), at a certain age and whose type you're not sure.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Ive sent tests to all of them and that was an example I could think of that I coud l specifically illustrate to you. Im not that dumb lol. The age range that I have veiwed is 20 to upper 40s (I didnt get his exact age for the oldest). The one in WC3 is 25.

As for gaming in general and types-- I am not that way at all. I'm extremely cooperative and concerned for the team as a whole and not competing with my own team (as opposed to them, that not only compete against the other team to win but their own team for top score and presence/hierarchy).

Edit- Im not even that way in poker. We had a thread for that, too. Im concerned with having a good time--not winning. Some wins. Some losses. Some good laughs and memories. That's good enough for me ^_^ It;s nice to win but it is'nt my motivation. Yet on the other hand, I wouldnt feel good about someone not trying but that is a different aspect.

[FDG]

Sports and gaming seem to me to be areas where you can hardly use logical arguments to make a case or win an discussion, so I really don't see how that would translate into a conclusion of general behavior.

I can be like that in sports, just because I see that in the end the whole thing is not meant to be serious and it does not have sound consequences.Thus, it is possible that I would use word games in debates during the play.


However, I don't mind about winning or losing after having played - I do not complain for the result, since it's the objective reality. Moreover, I really dislike cheating in a competitive atmosphere - I get really angry at cheaters.

[XoX]

Second, what you just described is not the usual m.o. for an ENTj. We really stick to logic and facts in our arguments, not manipulation or entrapment via word play. What you described seemed to me to be a misinterpretation.

I know one ENTj who yes sticks to logic and facts unless he is actually wrong / losing the argument. If he is he tries to manipulate the flow of conversation and lead the other person to another topic crush him there and sort of destroy the credibility and self confidence of the other person. This works well if the "audience" is not as familiar with the topic than those making arguments. This ENTj can really ridicule even those who are right. I can't prove he is ENTj though but I feel like I supervise him...he isn't nearly as "bully" with me as with many other people. This is pretty subjective though there is a small chance he is ENTp and also possible this is his personal thing and doesn't apply to other ENTjs.

[Creepy-]

MBTI=EXTX
Socionics=ENTp

However, the fact that I have an indepth interest in the subject(s) dimisses ESTP, and the fact that I am willing to remain open in discovering my true type may eliminate ENTJ.

Chances are great that I am ENTP/ENTp.

I hope that's not anti-sensor bias....

Meet Herzy.

I hope not either Ishysquishy. I have read that Se dominant types are not tolerant of a great deal of theory. I would think that after five years of studying the various schools on type, would be too much for ESTP.

[Functianalyst]

ENTP MBTI (With borderline J/P)

ENTj socionics.

FDG, for what reason(s) do you dismiss being ENTJ?

[FDG]

ENTP MBTI (With borderline J/P)

ENTj socionics.

FDG, for what reason(s) do you dismiss being ENTJ?

You mean on the MBTI?

Because

1. On the test I have a slight preference for P, due to my disordeliness.
2. The description of the ENTP MBTI fits me much better, except for the relationship part.

[Creepy-]

MBTI=EXTX
Socionics=ENTp

However, the fact that I have an indepth interest in the subject(s) dimisses ESTP, and the fact that I am willing to remain open in discovering my true type may eliminate ENTJ.

Chances are great that I am ENTP/ENTp.

I hope that's not anti-sensor bias....

Meet Herzy.

I hope not either Ishysquishy. I have read that Se dominant types are not tolerant of a great deal of theory. I would think that after five years of studying the various schools on type, would be too much for ESTP.

In my experience, Se dominant don't mind the theory (and are actually really good at it) if they're interested in the general subject. But they don't really seem to be much interested in theory for the sake of itself, I agree.

We need an Se dominant to come in here and tell us what's what...

[Raver]

MBTI: ENFP/INFP
Socionics: ENFP OR ?????