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Thread: Who's your enneagram dual?

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    Quote Originally Posted by inabox View Post
    Have you been with both so/sp and sp/sos? I find so/sps kind of repulsive and vice versa.
    No, ive never been with an so/sp. I actually cant remember any guys irl who i reckoned were so/sp.

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    So/sp are very attractive actually at least at the beginning, and from my observation most of heartbreakers are so/sp (I could elaborate if anyone wants to hear).


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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    That's bad. Nope. Nope. Nope.
    How come?

    He is still not settled completely on his type. An explanation here could be helpful if anyone wouldn't mind
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    Quote Originally Posted by mclane View Post
    Because mirage doesn't hold a candle to duality in my experience.
    So you're suggesting that if a relationship is not duality.. it can't be a wonderful relationship? Are you claiming that every 'soulmate' pair has to be duals? Or is there something wrong with mirage specifically, in your opinion?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volcano View Post
    So you're suggesting that if a relationship is not duality.. it can't be a wonderful relationship? Are you claiming that every 'soulmate' pair has to be duals? Or is there something wrong with mirage specifically, in your opinion?
    No, mirage can certainly be a very rewarding relationship, but having personally experienced both in a romantic setting, duality takes the upper hand. If mirage works for you, good.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    That's bad. Nope. Nope. Nope.
    Is this a joke?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Is this a joke?
    It's not a joke. Mirage relations seem to be horrible for marriage, doubly so if they end up getting children from the two different quadras that are benefactor, supervisor, etc. to various family members (basically any relationship other than lookalike/business) or illusory to the dominant parent (= the dominant parent will try to make them act like their dual and use their role and hate their lead due to it being their Ignoring function, and basically hate the child for who they really are due to not being able to really see who they really are if they're not very psychologically aware. Hint: it tends to be the sensing or logical parent who becomes the dictator, and they tend to be less psychologically aware). Marriage should always be at the very least in-quadra so all the children will be in-quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    It's not a joke. Mirage relations seem to be horrible for marriage, doubly so if they end up getting children from the two different quadras that are benefactor, supervisor, etc. to various family members (basically any relationship other than lookalike/business) or illusory to the dominant parent (= the dominant parent will try to make them act like their dual and use their role and hate their lead due to it being their Ignoring function). Marriage should always be at the very least in-quadra so all the children will be in-quadra.
    You're still in your teens right? You type yourself EIE but have little understanding about how to interact with people. Why would you tell a married couple that their relationship sucks when it is clear she sees him as her soulmate. Seriously, I want to know? Do you ever think before you post this stuff? Now do you see why I respond to you the way I do? I guess this is a waste of my time and I should give up.

    Oh, and have you ever been in a relationship? Your understanding is almost clinical, almost because this isn't science.

    People have been raising children without the aid of socionics for many millennia and will continue long after it fades into obscurity.

    Edit: socionics isn't dna so what makes you even think having kids with someone in the same quadra will lead to same quadra kids? lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    You're still in your teens right? You type yourself EIE but have little understanding about how to interact with people. Why would you tell a married couple that their relationship sucks when it is clear she sees him as her soulmate. Seriously, I want to know? Do you ever think before you post this stuff? Now do you see why I respond to you the way I do? I guess this is a waste of my time and I should give up.

    Oh, and have you ever been in a relationship? Your understanding is almost clinical, almost because this isn't science.

    People have been raising children without the aid of socionics for many millennia and will continue long after it fades into obscurity.

    Edit: socionics isn't dna so what makes you even think having kids with someone in the same quadra will lead to same quadra kids? lol
    Haven't you heard that love makes you blind? It doesn't suck now, but it'll go downhill. I've gotten lots of anecdotes like this out of a lot of different people, one of them being myself. It's more important that they and their children have a good future than that I look good – much more important – so I'll make myself look bad for them. They're strangers, you're a stranger, we're all strangers here, and I'm not sure why it matters a speck what strangers think of me. But if they suffer? I can feel that myself. I'm somehow reminded of that quote "the whole world is not worth the tear of a child" that appears on the questionaires here. So why do I make myself look bad? Why do I do things that come off socially inept? I'm crazy like a fox and going for a reaction, that's why. It often doesn't work, but when I have to do it, the alternative wouldn't work at all, or at least has a much lower chance. Perhaps I'm striving beyond my station, but if I do nothing, I have no right to feel sad, or rather, to say I feel sad, since I clearly don't if I do nothing. To know and not to act – is not to know.

    Of course they don't need the aid of socionics to raise children, but since we're speaking that language I might as well use it here. Were the context different, I'd say the same thing in a different way, because I don't want anyone to have to suffer this.

    Anecdotes and personal observations. People from the same quadra are repeatedly reported to have the same quadra kids, and I see it all the time. The ideas of quadras also appear to frequently degrade into ideas of caste systems as well, so marriages being in-caste seems to be based on keeping the kids in-quadra, although coercing people like that is pretty wrong IMO even if is well-intended. People should just be educated to make the right choices, not coerced, especially since in those cases everyone tends to forget and then it tends to lead to people forgetting the reasons for the coercion in the first place, then dropping it when it no longer makes sense to them. That is one of the major patterns of history.
    Last edited by Pallas; 11-18-2016 at 07:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    Haven't you heard that love makes you blind? It doesn't suck now, but it'll go downhill. I've gotten lots of anecdotes like this out of a lot of different people, one of them being myself. It's more important that they and their children have a good future than that I look good – much more important – so I'll make myself look bad for them. They don't need the aid of socionics to raise children, but since we're speaking that language I might as well use it here. Were the context different, I'd say the same thing in a different way, because I don't want anyone to have to suffer this.

    Anecdotes and personal observations. People from the same quadra are repeatedly reported to have the same quadra kids, and I see it all the time. The ideas of quadras also appear to frequently degrade into ideas of caste systems as well, so that seems to be based on keeping the kids in-quadra.

    Please just stop. Is this supposed to be some kind of Ni? Again with assumptions that a couple even wants children. Not everyone does.

    THEY ARE ALREADY MARRIED!

    Stick to people looking for dating advice...

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    @Aylen lol. Your posts are amazing.

    Indeed, we don't want kids. And I laughed out loud reading the part about people marrying without the aid of socionics, and why in the hell would kids end up being in the same quadra. LOL.

    He is definitely my soulmate. We experience some of the problems described in "mirage," like we feel too relaxed and at ease together so we don't get anything done. I am usually a very productive person... but when I'm as relaxed and happy as I am with him, it is definitely harder to keep that up, even though it's my nature. We have worked on projects together successfully, but I have to be rigid and set deadlines to avoid slipping into "aww I love you cuddlecuddle gigglegiggle." So I do see the negative tendencies described, as well as the positive; but it's nothing we can't work through. And our communication is excellent. I don't see how communication has been better with anyone. Indeed it is easier to understand people in my own quadra when it comes to understanding what they're getting at even when they're not making sense to other people; but on a deeper emotional level my husband understands me better than anyone ever has.

    We complement each other brilliantly and admire each other's strengths and fill in some of each other's weaknesses. Surely we could use a thinker on the team if we did a major project, and we are considering tackling one project with a friend who is a Ti dom; but emotionally we fulfill and balance each other.

    A few years ago I dated an ILI - and he is a great person, still a good friend (really likes my husband too)... but we both agreed that dating each other, it felt like..too easy. There wasn't enough ... mystery or charge. He used the metaphor that he was sitting on one mountain and I was on another and we were looking down at the world from different angles, but we'd never be on the same mountain. We understood each other perfectly from day one. Communication was easy. But where do you go from there.
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    Who said you need your romantic partner to be your working partner and help you with everything you need in life (non romantically) anyway? I dont really think socionic types are a thing but the theory of intertype relations is in a work environment and says nothing about chemistry etc. With enneagram though ive noticed my close friends have been soc lasts and the people i hang out with but are not close has been also sp lasts. So i think for chemistry instinct stacks are waaaaaay more reliable, and real, than socionics intertype bs.

    With my sp/so ex we werent even friends before we dated and i remember our conversations werent that interesting imo besides joking around and being romantic i guess, the "good" thing was the sx illusion that I created.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Please just stop. Is this supposed to be some kind of Ni? Again with assumptions that a couple even wants children. Not everyone does.

    THEY ARE ALREADY MARRIED!

    Stick to people looking for dating advice...
    OK, sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    Who said you need your romantic partner to be your working partner and help you with everything you need in life (non romantically) anyway? I dont really think socionic types are a thing but the theory of intertype relations is in a work environment and says nothing about chemistry etc. With enneagram though ive noticed my close friends have been soc lasts and the people i hang out with but are not close has been also sp lasts. So i think for chemistry instinct stacks are waaaaaay more reliable, and real, than socionics intertype bs.

    With my sp/so ex we werent even friends before we dated and i remember our conversations werent that interesting imo besides joking around and being romantic i guess, the "good" thing was the sx illusion that I created.
    Yeah that's the other thing. The inter-type relations can work well romantically or at work or in friendships, if you look at it from the angle of - "this is what could potentially be easy and what could potentially be difficult about the communication." But if you look at it as "I will like this person, but not this one," it will be misleading. Because romantically there has to be chemistry. And if the chemistry is strong enough, both partners will try to communicate even if it means fighting, makeup sex or whatever. So you can't necessarily say that a relationship will work, or won't work, based on socionics, but you can say that the quality of the communication might line up with how those types communicate.


    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    OK, sorry.
    Haha. It's all good
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verbrannte View Post
    OK, sorry.
    I do it because I feel like you just need to slow down and read what someone is saying before responding. I don't want to make you feel bad. :/ I know you are high energy and enthusiastic about your interests. Don't be sorry. <3

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I do it because I feel like you just need to slow down and read what someone is saying before responding. I don't want to make you feel bad. :/ I know you are high energy and enthusiastic about your interests. Don't be sorry. <3
    Well, right now I'm not high enough energy and too slow, but the results are the same. Thanks.

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    I think it should be e1, my integration point
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    I'm not really sure how enneagram works. I could never get my exes to take the test.

    But the enneagram site says 8 grows at 2. I'm a 2. So an 8 maybe?

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    I'm an LIE e8, and I work with an EII who is an e2, and we get along very, very well. She would be good wife material if there were any spark between us, which there is not. However, we are on the same page, professionally, and we have tremendous mutual understanding, respect, and support for each other. So, based on my own experience, e8 and e2 can be a good combination.

    The integration-disintegration paths are very interesting. I married (and divorced) an SLI e5.

    However, to get beyond anecdotal evidence, here are some better statistics: http://www.9types.com/writeup/enneag...ationships.php

    For what it's worth, I'm now looking for an e6. E6 is predicted to be a good combination with e8, but I have no real idea how that will work, though. I guess I'll just have to try it and see.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-07-2016 at 01:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm an LIE e8, and I work with an EII who is an e2, and we get along very, very well. She would be good wife material if there were any spark between us, which there is not. However, we are on the same page, professionally, and we have tremendous mutual understanding, respect, and support for each other. So, based on my own experience, e8 and e2 can be a good combination.

    The integration-disintegration paths are very interesting. I married (and divorced) an SLI e5.

    However, to get beyond anecdotal evidence, here are some better statistics: http://www.9types.com/writeup/enneag...ationships.php

    For what it's worth, I'm now looking for an e6. E6 is predicted to be a good combination with e8, but I have no real idea how that will work, though. I guess I'll just have to try it and see.
    Might want to avoid a 6w5 if you had a bad experience with a 5! They can get so withdrawn to the point they become paranoid and hurtful, drawing them out of their shell will end in criticism. At least from my experiences with confirmed 6w5. They'll tear you down just like a five will. But 6w5's reading this please don't think I think negatively of you, I don't, just have had some negative experiences with unhealthy 6w5. 6w7 might be a better option because it will resonate with your 7 wing. I have never met an 8 I think. I would probably do well with an ISTP or ESTP 8 though. I have yet to experience Socionics duality.

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    I generally like guys who are image/heart last, and not sx last. Been drawn to 9w1s the most.. 7 fix is pretty attractive

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost View Post
    I generally like guys who are image/heart last, and not sx last. Been drawn to 9w1s the most.. 7 fix is pretty attractive
    This actually reflects the two most common partners for female Type 4s, in my experience.

    A lot of 4s are drawn to 7s and temporarily date them, but most end up with a Type 9 (or sometimes with a fellow 4) for the long-term.

    I have seen this with many female 4s I have known, and this chart shows the same.
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    I get along best with 1w9 and 9w1 with some sx-so variant. I have a lot of male friends who are 1w9, we seem to share a bit of a reformist / perfectionistic / idealistic streak even though our everyday behavior can be vastly different.

    6s are fine too if they're mentally stable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I get along best with 1w9 and 9w1 with some sx-so variant. I have a lot of male friends who are 1w9, we seem to share a bit of a reformist / perfectionistic / idealistic streak even though our everyday behavior can be vastly different.

    6s are fine too if they're mentally stable.
    @FDG, what do you think your eneagram type and stacking are?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    This actually reflects the two most common partners for female Type 4s, in my experience.

    A lot of 4s are drawn to 7s and temporarily date them, but most end up with a Type 9 (or sometimes with a fellow 4) for the long-term.

    I have seen this with many female 4s I have known, and this chart shows the same.
    Yeah I agree, most 4s are with 9s.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @FDG, what do you think your eneagram type and stacking are?
    Oh sorry it doesnt show anymore.
    Anyway 7w8 sp-sx or 3w4 sp-sx but more likely the former
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    Update - we have settled on my husband's type and he is an EII. His old typings were 'close' but not hitting the spot - EII is undeniably right. So our relationship is not Mirage/Illusionary but rather, Kindred.

    Since I am confident in both of our typings now, I am curious if anyone has any experience or insights about the Kindred relationship.
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    i posted here already, but the most "dual" enneagram type for me is still 8w7.
    they usually have an immediate calming + energizing effect on my emotional state. i have no clue why. i don't particularly care about 8w9.

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    yeah and every SEI is a 9. I know, I know. but he's a 6.
    actually i think Ni painful is like type 6... what if shit happens oh no blah blah we're all going to dieee

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    Ugh,
    I've studied socionics in a lot more depth now. My husband is definitely EIE-Fe.
    I am reconsidering my type, I might actually be his dual after all.

    Pardon my old posts. I was new to everything.
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    @Volcano you are definitely no LSI-Ti. I don't mean this in a bad way at all! You are actually a lot closer to being my dual than being my identical. Some kind of Beta NF. FWIW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    @Volcano you are definitely no LSI-Ti. I don't mean this in a bad way at all! You are actually a lot closer to being my dual than being my identical. Some kind of Beta NF. FWIW.
    Why Beta NF?
    Last edited by Volcana; 06-24-2017 at 02:38 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volcano View Post
    Why Beta NF?
    Well, going beyond the 4 sx-ness, which you do have very strongly, you come off a lot like @Aylen to me in your presentation of thoughts, sure (as you yourself implied) you may come off a bit rambly but yet it all seems connected on a subjective impression (Ni), not a description of discrete phenomena like object-oriented Ne does it. Does this make sense? Also, I think when you analyze people or yourself, you are focused on emotional dynamics, implications of emotional events (Fe), instead of focusing on your evaluation of your very personal distance and attitude to people (Fi). Your whole approach seems very Dynamic to me (Dynamic Fe/Ni > Static Fi/Ne), with always focusing on how things dynamically lead to each other. Like movies, if visualizing it. Make sense?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Well, going beyond the 4 sx-ness, which you do have very strongly, you come off a lot like @Aylen to me in your presentation of thoughts, sure (as you yourself implied) you may come off a bit rambly but yet it all seems connected on a subjective impression (Ni), not a description of discrete phenomena like object-oriented Ne does it. Does this make sense? Also, I think when you analyze people or yourself, you are focused on emotional dynamics, implications of emotional events (Fe), instead of focusing on your evaluation of your very personal distance and attitude to people and between people (Fi). Your whole approach seems very Dynamic to me (Dynamic Fe/Ni > Static Fi/Ne), with always focusing on how things dynamically lead to each other. Like movies, if visualizing it. Make sense?
    Interesting
    Yes, it hit me pretty hard recently that I am likely not Fi valuing - I am more attuned to the implications of emotional events, rather than personal distance and attitude toward the person. I received several complaints over the years from my high-Fi friends, that I was not honoring the distance properly (I wasn't contacting them with a frequency or interest that was appropriate to 'how close we were,' or some such) ... and after hearing enough of this, I realized there is a way to categorize the problem: I simply don't value Fi. At this point, the only thing that keeps me saying "Maybe Fi" is that I'm not 100% convinced my smile lands on the Fe side over Fi, vutology wise.

    Based on my values, personality, who I've gotten along with best, visual appearance etc, I see a very strong case at this point that I am indeed Beta. What makes you see Beta NF instead of Beta ST?
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    @Myst
    It's funny you bring up that I comment on the dynamics between people. This morning on another forum, I had finally commented on a long series of threads where there was an argument. Most other people on the forum had gotten involved long ago, and mods were calling for votes for how to handle it. Obviously I won't reveal anyone's personal info, so I will change the names in the couple and I will only post my side of the argument, but I'll show you the posts I wrote because this demonstrates how I think about interpersonal happenings:

    __
    I think Dave and Carla should have angry makeup sex and get back together.
    It's obvious they are still obsessed with each other, based on the amount of energy they have continuously poured into fighting. The whole point of fighting in public is to lay claim on each other, so that everyone continues to write their names next to each other. How many times have we all seen the phrase "Dave and Carla" as though their names belong together...
    Nobody else is hitting on either of them because theres so much energy and heat around what is going on between them. Since they can't fuck the troubles away, they resort to a public platform to exchange their passionate and highly addictive energy, and direct it toward each other.
    The bigger the crowd, the lower the blow, the more energy they give to each other and the louder they signal each other of their ongoing interest. If they didnt want to be together, one or both would have walked away from this fight.
    So I vote "Dave and Carla should have makeup sex."


    As for the forum, if I were the mod I would simply remove threads of this nature. Immediately. This way the drama trolls who are feeding off the fights will get bored and Dave and Carla will be forced to take it back to the bedroom, where volcanic obsessions such as theirs belong.






    ---
    Forget the minutia, like who said what to whom when.
    In the bigger picture, this whole thing is a seduction dance.
    Have you ever heard birds in the spring, screeching? Yesterday my husband and I passed a frog in heat and holy shit that thing sounded ugly...

    ----
    Their magnetism is so strong it has attracted at least 20 other people, just on this forum alone.


    The people most directly involved, in an ongoing way, are quite clearly lacking that kind of spice in their lives and needed a taste. That thrill they got from feeding off the magnetism of this "broken relationship" fills a craving for them.
    But as long as Dave and Carla are broken up, and can't get some release, the heat between them will remain too large to be contained by just two people.


    So they will keep feeding the hungry, who are lacking fire in their own lives.
    Others call this "drama" .. I call it human nature.

    -----
    yes , there is also "morality" which is the product of the guilt and shame we are born with and which society weaponizes against us.
    Guilt and shame is a necessary survival mechanism for the species..
    When an elephant gets sick, it separates from the herd out of shame, which prevents the illness from spreading to the herd, and prevents slowing their pace.
    Likewise humans have the automatic "shame" mechanism to prevent them from spreading illness, cruelty or other impulses to the herd.
    But sexual heat has a mind of its own..it transcends boundaries, shame and guilt. There is no containing it. You can act respectable and "dignified" but it will eat you alive from inside, and you could become passive aggressive, aggressive, violent or shut down because of the heat that is trapped inside you.


    So, moralizing people because they expended some heat is pointless..there is no "safe, respectable" place to expend your own heat, so you might as well just own it.

    --
    Sexual heat causes animals to battle and kill each other, causes birds to waste their day singing, some species of fish to make artistic displays in the sand.. it is not efficient nor is it quiet and contained.

    ---
    Sure. But if other people weren't also feeding off their energy, their public displays wouldn't have gained so much traction. So, it is pointless to moralize them..they "should" have kept it private, or the others "shouldnt" have gotten involved according to some peoples standards (which exist only because this display makes them uncomfortable so, instead of saying that outright and owning their feelings, people sit on their high horse making rules for public conduct, claiming that others "should" have behaved in a way that was comfortable for them..)


    The fact is, a couple fought and others fed on the drama. Don't like it? Ignore it. I ignored it, and I dont even care about it enough to not like it.
    Ignoring it is not that hard. If youre unable to ignore it, you may want to look at yourself and ask why. Whats missing in your life that makes this so agonizing for you?

    ----

    sorry, I didnt mean you personally. I should have clarified, it was general you. Sorry for the implication.
    I realized just after I posted it that it sounded as if directed at you, but it wasnt, it was general.commentary. apologies

    -----
    Then ignore it.
    Like I said in my first post, the mods have the power to remove the threads immediately. Simple solution. Aside from the mods who have signed up with the intent of making the group function the way they want, what is posted here is not up to anyone else. Dont like it? Start your own group. Thats what I did when I was unsatisfied with all the other enneagram groups. And I enforce mine in a way that satisfies me.
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    @Aylen - a penny for your thoughts?
    Are you Beta NF? And what do you see as the difference between Beta NF and Beta ST? In your personal experience?
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    I went to edit this to add something and somehow deleted my original post by hitting save instead of preview. :/

    I could try to rewrite but it might not be the same. Sometimes I try to submit in some threads but it tells me there is wonky code... when I hit back it is gone.
    Last edited by Aylen; 06-25-2017 at 04:26 AM.

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    I have to say it's obvious that you're an ethical type @Volcano. Probably IEI and if not that then some other ethical type. You don't have to be your husband's dual just because you're married. I can't picture an sx 4 LSI either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volcano View Post
    Interesting
    Yes, it hit me pretty hard recently that I am likely not Fi valuing - I am more attuned to the implications of emotional events, rather than personal distance and attitude toward the person. I received several complaints over the years from my high-Fi friends, that I was not honoring the distance properly (I wasn't contacting them with a frequency or interest that was appropriate to 'how close we were,' or some such) ... and after hearing enough of this, I realized there is a way to categorize the problem: I simply don't value Fi. At this point, the only thing that keeps me saying "Maybe Fi" is that I'm not 100% convinced my smile lands on the Fe side over Fi, vutology wise.

    Based on my values, personality, who I've gotten along with best, visual appearance etc, I see a very strong case at this point that I am indeed Beta. What makes you see Beta NF instead of Beta ST?
    What's vutology? Some new theory on visual identification?

    Beta NF vs Beta ST are worlds apart - the former deals with information that's very implicit, feelings, relationships, intuitive perceptions of events, everything subjective, the latter deals with very explicit information about the directly tangible things of the world.

    I think it's obvious that your focus is on the former.


    It's funny you bring up that I comment on the dynamics between people. This morning on another forum, I had finally commented on a long series of threads where there was an argument. Most other people on the forum had gotten involved long ago, and mods were calling for votes for how to handle it. Obviously I won't reveal anyone's personal info, so I will change the names in the couple and I will only post my side of the argument, but I'll show you the posts I wrote because this demonstrates how I think about interpersonal happenings:
    Yes, this is a good example, I think.

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    @Daddy Lessons
    My type aside, there is no problem with mixing Ti dominance with type 4 in enneagram.

    I wrote several posts about this on another forum - and I will repost them here:

    Aren't you the one putting the artists in one box and the scientists in the other?

    A 4 Ti type could take it upon himself to study the nature of human emotion so that he can understand himself and attribute meaning to his own emotions. He could do this as an attempt to understand the mysteries of his own wild abyss of emotions (inferior Fe) that seem to explode up to the surface.
    4's fear is insignificance - lack of meaning and identity.
    So, what marks a 4 is that they attribute meaning to things - their impressions, feelings, thoughts, ideas, structures, inner worlds, experiences...
    The functions might determine the specific manner in which they do this. So a Ti dominant 4 might engage a study on general human emotion (Fe) and try to map it out hoping that in turn he would understand himself. He might do this while still being a very emotional creature (we all know about inferior Fe splats and the melancholy or anger or rage beneath).

    5 is less about attributing personal meaning to things and more about removing themselves from the equation so they can observe the world as if from outside, in order to build up competency which would then make them feel safe to exert power. This is not Ti per se. 5s' fear is being "useless," and the Ti is a means through which to be "useful." aka competent.

    A Ti dominant 4 might apply a logical principle based on their own internal truth which they would then identify with as a 4.

    4s also tend to be self-referencing, but they could repeatedly reference their own thought patterns, internal truth, the meanings they have attributed to their feelings and what this says about them (which becomes the structure that they build) whereas a Ti dominant 5 would build a world of internal structure and apply it to a project, a masterpiece, or a field that he becomes competent in, that he might see as his life's work evidencing his competency, but something outside of himself; rather than something he identifies with and says "this work IS me."

    A Ti dominant 4 is much more likely to get personal and talk about himself as though his very self is the result of the complex world of meanings that he has attributed to his feelings, ideas, experiences and relationships. And those things define him and constitute his identity.
    --

    Oh yes , inferior Fe is actually very akin to some 4 issues. It is a volatile bunch of feelings welling up out of nowhere which the Ti might either ignore in favor of some system or, if he has incorporated "understanding human emotion" or "understanding himself" into his studies, he might examine such emotions deeply and use it as the stuff of music, novels or a basis for psychological study.

    It's not about being healthy at all. If a 4 is a Ti dom, the Fe expression of feelings and need for emotional sharing juxtaposed with being blocked by a Ti-based need to filter everything through a logical process that gives it a place in a framework or paradigm that isolates the Ti dom in their own self-imposed castle of individualized ideas... might create tremendous disturbance inside. The 4 then may identify as a chaotic emotional creature whose emotions are out of control and misunderstood, even by the 4 himself.

    Remember that the Ti process is a highly subjective process. Read Jung's description here. He is not describing something inherently rational, objective or impersonal. The Ti dom's personal world , just like the Fi dom's, is highly personalized and isolating since nobody else can understand it and it is especially difficult to communicate something so complex. Sound like a 4 description?


    1. Thinking
    When describing extraverted thinking, I gave a brief characterization of introverted thinking, to which at this stage I must make further reference. Introverted thinking is primarily orientated by the subjective factor. At the least, this subjective factor is represented by a subjective feeling of direction, which, in the last resort, determines judgment. Occasionally, it is a more or less finished image, which to some extent, serves as a standard. This thinking may be conceived either with concrete or with abstract factors, but always at the decisive points it is orientated by subjective data. Hence, it does not lead from concrete experience back again into objective things, but always to the subjective content, External facts are not the aim and origin of this thinking, although the introvert would often like to make it so appear. It begins in the subject, and returns to the subject, although it may [p. 481] undertake the widest flights into the territory of the real and the actual. Hence, in the statement of new facts, its chief value is indirect, because new views rather than the perception of new facts are its main concern. It formulates questions and creates theories; it opens up prospects and yields insight, but in the presence of facts it exhibits a reserved demeanour. As illustrative examples they have their value, but they must not prevail. Facts are collected as evidence or examples for a theory, but never for their own sake. Should this latter ever occur, it is done only as a compliment to the extraverted style. For this kind of thinking facts are of secondary importance; what, apparently, is of absolutely paramount importance is the development and presentation of the subjective idea, that primordial symbolical image standing more or less darkly before the inner vision. Its aim, therefore, is never concerned with an intellectual reconstruction of concrete actuality, but with the shaping of that dim image into a resplendent idea. Its desire is to reach reality; its goal is to see how external facts fit into, and fulfil, the framework of the idea; its actual creative power is proved by the fact that this thinking can also create that idea which, though not present in the external facts, is yet the most suitable, abstract expression of them. Its task is accomplished when the idea it has fashioned seems to emerge so inevitably from the external facts that they actually prove its validity.
    But just as little as it is given to extraverted thinking to wrest a really sound inductive idea from concrete facts or ever to create new ones, does it lie in the power of introverted thinking to translate its original image into an idea adequately adapted to the facts. For, as in the former case the purely empirical heaping together of facts paralyses thought and smothers their meaning, so in the latter case introverted thinking shows a dangerous tendency [p. 482] to coerce facts into the shape of its image, or by ignoring them altogether, to unfold its phantasy image in freedom. In such a case, it will be impossible for the presented idea to deny its origin from the dim archaic image. There will cling to it a certain mythological character that we are prone to interpret as 'originality', or in more pronounced cases' as mere whimsicality; since its archaic character is not transparent as such to specialists unfamiliar with mythological motives. The subjective force of conviction inherent in such an idea is usually very great; its power too is the more convincing, the less it is influenced by contact with outer facts. Although to the man who advocates the idea, it may well seem that his scanty store of facts were the actual ground and source of the truth and validity of his idea, yet such is not the case, for the idea derives its convincing power from its unconscious archetype, which, as such, has universal validity and everlasting truth. Its truth, however, is so universal and symbolic, that it must first enter into the recognized and recognizable knowledge of the time, before it can become a practical truth of any real value to life. What sort of a causality would it be, for instance, that never became perceptible in practical causes and practical results?
    This thinking easily loses itself in the immense truth of the subjective factor. It creates theories for the sake of theories, apparently with a view to real or at least possible facts, yet always with a distinct tendency to go over from the world of ideas into mere imagery. Accordingly many intuitions of possibilities appear on the scene, none of which however achieve any reality, until finally images are produced which no longer express anything externally real, being 'merely' symbols of the simply unknowable. It is now merely a mystical thinking and quite as unfruitful as that empirical thinking whose sole operation is within the framework of objective facts. [p. 483]
    Whereas the latter sinks to the level of a mere presentation of facts, the former evaporates into a representation of the unknowable, which is even beyond everything that could be expressed in an image. The presentation of facts has a certain incontestable truth, because the subjective factor is excluded and the facts speak for themselves. Similarly, the representing of the unknowable has also an immediate, subjective, and convincing power, because it is demonstrable from its own existence. The former says 'Est, ergo est' ('It is ; therefore it is') ; while the latter says 'Cogito, ergo cogito' (' I think ; therefore I think'). In the last analysis, introverted thinking arrives at the evidence of its own subjective being, while extraverted thinking is driven to the evidence of its complete identity with the objective fact. For, while the extravert really denies himself in his complete dispersion among objects, the introvert, by ridding himself of each and every content, has to content himself with his mere existence. In both cases the further development of life is crowded out of the domain of thought into the region of other psychic functions which had hitherto existed in relative unconsciousness. The extraordinary impoverishment of introverted thinking in relation to objective facts finds compensation in an abundance of unconscious facts. Whenever consciousness, wedded to the function of thought, confines itself within the smallest and emptiest circle possible -- though seeming to contain the plenitude of divinity -- unconscious phantasy becomes proportionately enriched by a multitude of archaically formed facts, a veritable pandemonium of magical and irrational factors, wearing the particular aspect that accords with the nature of that function which shall next relieve the thought-function as the representative of life. If this should be the intuitive function, the 'other side' will be viewed with the eyes of a Kubin or a Meyrink. If it is the feeling-function, [p. 484] there arise quite unheard of and fantastic feeling-relations, coupled with feeling-judgments of a quite contradictory and unintelligible character. If the sensation-function, then the senses discover some new and never-before-experienced possibility, both within and without the body. A closer investigation of such changes can easily demonstrate the reappearance of primitive psychology with all its characteristic features. Naturally, the thing experienced is not merely primitive but also symbolic; in fact, the older and more primeval it appears, the more does it represent the future truth: since everything ancient in our unconscious means the coming possibility.
    Under ordinary circumstances, not even the transition to the 'other side' succeeds -- still less the redeeming journey through the unconscious. The passage across is chiefly prevented by conscious resistance to any subjection of the ego to the unconscious reality and to the determining reality of the unconscious object. The condition is a dissociation-in other words, a neurosis having the character of an inner wastage with increasing brain-exhaustion -- a psychoasthenia, in fact.
    So as you can see,

    Nope, Ti is highly subjective.

    --

    In socionics, it is said that the "role function," meaning the function opposite your first, plays a strong role in the psyche.

    So, a Fi dom might have a strong influence from Ti, and a Ti dom might have a strong influence from Fi. It's just not very well integrated. It comes out at the expense of what the person really cares about and once an immediate issue is solved, the person goes back to his dominant function and into a world that the role function cannot interrupt.
    --

    Cool! Glad if I could help
    I also have difficulty putting things in words. By the time I'm doing that fluidly, I've absorbed a lot of information, thoughts and analysis already.


    I see what you mean. But, it's still not integration. I agree about holy origin, but feeling like your inner world is separate from the rest of the world, and your identity is separate, is definitely possible for Ti doms. Otherwise 5s wouldn't be Ti doms. Both 4 and 5 share the feeling of being alien or separate from the world, it's just one focuses on identity and the other on usefulness.

    How a 4 struggles with Holy Origin will be very different from 4 to 4. But an attempt to orient themselves with the rest of humans could definitely match a Ti-Fe desire to study and analyze and create systems to understand why they are different and what makes them unlike the rest. They might want to know where they fit into the system so that they can feel more human and thus more part of holy origin. Remember in enneagram a vice comes with a virtue.

    --
    To add to my previous posts,

    Some types might fit together in ways that are not apparent when considering stereotypes instead of the true meaning of types. For instance, some claim that in order to be a 4, someone must be Fi dominant. Yet,

    Quotes from Ichazo on Type 4:

    Characteristic Fixation: Intellect
    Intellect may at first appear as a phenomenon of the head triad, or the adaptation instinct, but this is not the case. The intellect refers to reason and comprehension which the 4th point experiences the full spectrum. This ranges from having a focus on reason to a broad overview and a generalization of the world. This leads to having a deep understand at one end, to a superficial and false sense of reason at the other. The fixation of intellect leads to deceit as one is caught in a riptide ranging form reason to fallacy. The intellect is caught in Envy which can be described as for the desire of connection or understanding of another which is not present.

    Trap of the 4th point:
    Those who dwell within the 4th point on the Enneagram fall into the trap of constant analysis of the world around them. Not to be confused with the 5th points trap of observation, to be observed requires a detachment and withdrawal this is rather a search of reason for all that is around the individual. The journey that will liberate the one who is caught in the 4th point is the Way of Clarity which leads to the way of Clear and objective analysis (embodied by the 1st point of the enneagram).
    There is no reason why any introverted type could not fit this definition. Both Fi and Ti egos, especially, are prone to highly subjective over-analysis.


    This is just one example, and 4 is the type I know best - but before jumping to conclusions about type combinations that might not work, make sure you understand the true nature of each enneagram type, and how it can manifest through functions.
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