How Se and Ni work together

[Shazaam]

This is a specific, real-world example of how Ni and Se play off of one another. However, like always you still have free will in life. But you can see the obvious duality.

I was at a tigers game a little while back. Yes, very Se-heavy atmosphere. One of my friends (an ESTp bisexual male) was arguing with his friends and being rowdy, trying to rile this Delta male up. I knew what he was going to say about three seconds before he himself said it. Not because we were friends, we weren't THAT close - it was just my functions really kicking in well. Now I could have stepped in and told him 'Hey watch it' because he was pissing almost everybody off with his macho bravado. Maybe I was supposed to do that, but I kinda just thought it was funny in a way, and I honestly didn't really understand why people were getting so worked up about it anyway because to me he was 'just being a guy.' (Well we share quadra values so that makes sense)

Then he turned to me and said "Aw, I wasn't too bad there was I? I was okay right?" Approval that they're still an innately good person and they didn't mess up their relationships too bad. Pure ESTp/INFp duality. Now that I think about it, it was probably better not to directly tell him to knock it off, because at the time that would just instigate him further. (The Delta guy tried this but epically failed) It was my quiet reflection that made him listen to my advice.

It works with Se because Ni is a short-term immediate sense of what is going to happen and Se is short-term physical movement and drive. Bring them together and you basically have things that can get done (Se), and done well (Ni). It's not some long-term psychic ability (Nobody has that anyway I don't think, but if they did- it would be more Ne and not Ni) Ni people really can't comprehend what's happening too long in the future, that's why INFps seem to lack so much direction in life. It's like we're always living a few seconds ahead in the future, but that's it. I know what's gonna happen a few seconds in the future extremely well, but I have absolutely no inner sense of why and how I should plan for long-term goals. Likewise, the Se person can move things very well in the immediate here-and-now, which is how things get accomplished and the 'doing' can get done in the relationship. So thusly, my future gets made THAT way. You can't really get me to plan for my life using Ne & Si, it just doesn't work like that. My brain just isn't wired that way. That's why I need me some Se, it's the only way that my life can actually MOVE somewhere.

Geddit?

ESTps aren't all war-ish brutes, most are even smarter than me. Both types are romantic and dramatic and "emo." Just explaining the beauty of Ni/Se here. That is why INFp and ESTp are duals (or one of the reasons) It's not really an opposites attract thing like Expat said before. They're not different or the same, they just work so well together. Both Ni and Se are in the moment but they do different things to produce what cannot be accomplished on their own. Two sides, same coin- that type of thing. I know most of you know that already, but I'm just trying to bring life into the theory.

This behavior of ESTps makes Si-valuers go crazy for some reason and I notice it makes them scared/uncomfortable, and makes them like they have to try and lash back. Or worse they say "Omg Sam why aren't you saying anything to him!" ENFps especially seem to get disappointed in me when I don't stand up to Beta Bullying behavior, but they don't get that doing so just makes it worse. I actually *agree* with them that they're misbehaving, but they don't really know how to handle it the right way like I do.

When people get physically up in somebody's face, it soothes me down and allows me to help the situation. Aggressive men that bully INFp males are most likely Alpha or Gamma not Beta! Same external behavior, but the inner psychological functions aren't compatible so they think my passivity gives them permission to abuse me (that is until an ESTp male inevitably sticks up for me and kicks their ass like they always do.) Any extroverted/introverted relationship in different quadras is probably like this though.

So *spit* if you think I don't know my socionics shit. I might not be able to comprehend some functions, but that's because I'm piss-poor at them and my mind just can't.go.there. Well it can in a limited way since everybody uses all functions, but it requires too much energy for too little result.

[ScarlettLux]

It works with Se because Ni is a short-term immediate sense of what is going to happen and Se is short-term physical movement and drive. Bring them together and you basically have things that can get done (Se), and done well (Ni). It's not some long-term psychic ability (Nobody has that anyway I don't think, but if they did- it would be more Ne and not Ni) Ni people really can't comprehend what's happening too long in the future, that's why INFps seem to lack so much direction in life. It's like we're always living a few seconds ahead in the future, but that's it. I know what's gonna happen a few seconds in the future extremely well, but I have absolutely no inner sense of why and how I should plan for long-term goals. Likewise, the Se person can move things very well in the immediate here-and-now, which is how things get accomplished and the 'doing' can get done in the relationship. So thusly, my future gets made THAT way. You can't really get me to plan for my life using Ne & Si, it just doesn't work like that. My brain just isn't wired that way. That's why I need me some Se, it's the only way that my life can actually MOVE somewhere.

Nice thread. This is very eye-opening to me, this part. I did not realize Ni as a first function manifested more like this rather than seeing the long-term and wanting to achieve future goals. This further confirms myself NOT being an IEI as I seem to only use my Ni in a different way than you have described.

That's so odd - you really have no idea how to go for long-term plans? I'm always super confident that things will happen and unfold in a certain way if I follow the "plan" within my own mind.

[Blaze]

It works with Se because Ni is a short-term immediate sense of what is going to happen and Se is short-term physical movement and drive. Bring them together and you basically have things that can get done (Se), and done well (Ni). It's not some long-term psychic ability (Nobody has that anyway I don't think, but if they did- it would be more Ne and not Ni) Ni people really can't comprehend what's happening too long in the future, that's why INFps seem to lack so much direction in life. It's like we're always living a few seconds ahead in the future, but that's it. I know what's gonna happen a few seconds in the future extremely well, but I have absolutely no inner sense of why and how I should plan for long-term goals. Likewise, the Se person can move things very well in the immediate here-and-now, which is how things get accomplished and the 'doing' can get done in the relationship. So thusly, my future gets made THAT way. You can't really get me to plan for my life using Ne & Si, it just doesn't work like that. My brain just isn't wired that way. That's why I need me some Se, it's the only way that my life can actually MOVE somewhere.

i said the same thing in another thread. Ni gives day to day advice which helps SLE (and others, if they are able to hear it) move toward the outcome or long term goal. Se takes the action necessary to get things done.

i've been starting to think that Se and Ne have the better grasp on long range outcomes.

[Shazaam]

I can plan out something in my head idealistically but it's just all dreams and clouds and hazy bearings. For example, I plan to live somewhere in California with a hot boyfriend that's peppered with masculinity sprinkled with the right kind of femininity. I plan to get a golden retriever and hold down one really good job. I plan to live a simple life but still have the means to travel once in awhile.

Now how exactly am I gonna do this, the best course of actions to take so I don't cry and have an emo breakdown thinking nobody loves me and run back under my mommy's womb? I have no idea and if you told me directly (remember the IEI naturally hates being told what to do) I wouldn't listen to you anyway- instead the SLE naturally seems to trick me into getting my long-term goals done by using their here-and-now drive to work with my *almost* here-and-now Ni. Their sense of the long-term future is also blah so they cannot judge me or scold me for having no direction in life or come across as too bossy. Doesn't this make sense? So I don't have to be so nervous about what will happen in the future as I'm getting it done without realizing I'm getting it done.

[Sirena]

I think what you said makes a lot of sense B&D and helps me better understand why I feel the way I do about ESTps. That sort of thing that you instinctively get about how to deal with them, would definitely make me uncomfortable, like you said. But it's cool to see how duality works in other quadras and compare that to IEE/SLI duality. It's definitely very different. I've been thinking some about the difference between Se and Si valuing lately and this once again confirms how much I value Si. I like stories like this. They help me see the practical applications behind the theory. Thanks for sharing!

[Shazaam]

i said the same thing in another thread. Ni gives day to day advice which helps SLE (and others, if they are able to hear it) move toward the outcome or long term goal. Se takes the action necessary to get things done.

Yes, you get it!

[Shazaam]

I like stories like this. They help me see the practical applications behind the theory. Thanks for sharing!

Yeah I'm glad, I was trying to be practical and tone down the Beta silliness so other quadras could understand it as best as possible. I grew up around ENFps so I understand you guys a lot even if we are from different quadras. Sometimes I really need a Delta's perspective on things or I'll end up just burning too many bridges for the sake of having an emotional impact. I won't listen if it's a direct command for my own life (as I believe only our own quadras can really help us with that) but I can usually find some way to find the advice useful. ENFps are usually so good with people that they get me to do something without feeling like I'm abandoning my strong inner world, so +1 for you guys.

I'm sure I was technically wrong about a few things in the post, but it makes me happy that nobody is hitting my polr about that yet. ::knock on wood:: Besides, I was generally correct, I feel.

[Sirena]

Yeah I'm glad, I was trying to be practical and tone down the Beta silliness so other quadras could understand it as best as possible. I grew up around ENFps so I understand you guys a lot even if we are from different quadras. Sometimes I really need a Delta's perspective on things or I'll end up just burning too many bridges for the sake of having an emotional impact. I won't listen if it's a direct command for my own life (as I believe only our own quadras can really help us with that) but I can usually find some way to find the advice useful. ENFps are usually so good with people that they get me to do something without feeling like I'm abandoning my strong inner world, so +1 for you guys.

I'm sure I was technically wrong about a few things in the post, but it makes me happy that nobody is hitting my polr about that yet. ::knock on wood:: Besides, I was generally correct, I feel.

FWIW, the way you went about describing your experience here definitely helped me relate much better than if I had to get through the external emotionality apparent in other of your posts. I appreciate your attempt at making it open and relatable to everyone. I agree with everything you said here, by the way. I also try to be open to others' advice and POVs, but ultimately, it is your own quadra that can help you on a more personal level. Great thead! And yeah D&B, ultimately you have to be true to yourself. I value this ability in people and I'm glad that you have other ENFps in your life that encourage this in you.

As far as hitting your PoLR, you won't get that from me anyway. I don't get hung up on technicalities. The experience that you're sharing here is much more valuable in my eyes. I like to see things in motion and look at the big picture.

[Shazaam]

Thank you, that post kind of made me want to hug and gobble you up (gah I really do love too much huh)

BTW, if there's anyway that you could better explain your dual (ISTp) to me that would be great because it's one of the few types I just don't think I know anything about. I don't know many directly so I'm not sure how our interactions would play out. Try to tone down the Fi a little bit (to the best of your ability) so I can understand, fair's fair right. *grin*

I'm working on another project relating to social activism and the types. It doesn't have as many real-world examples because it's just uh more theoretical (the very nature of activism is more inspirational and not technical anyway), but maybe it will turn out okay.

[XoX]

That's so odd - you really have no idea how to go for long-term plans? I'm always super confident that things will happen and unfold in a certain way if I follow the "plan" within my own mind.

It could have something to do with the Reinin dichotomy "strategic" vs "tactical". Both Ni leading types are tactical where Ni creative types are strategic. So it works differently for rational and irrational Se-Ni dual pairs.

[Shazaam]

Hmm a bit more deeper than I initially thought but it makes sense. As always I'd have to see the live performance of both dual pairs interact in real life (or think of a situation that's already happened where it occurred), but I accept that for now.

[Sirena]

Thank you, that post kind of made me want to hug and gobble you up (gah I really do love too much huh)

BTW, if there's anyway that you could better explain your dual (ISTp) to me that would be great because it's one of the few types I just don't think I know anything about. I don't know many directly so I'm not sure how our interactions would play out. Try to tone down the Fi a little bit (to the best of your ability) so I can understand, fair's fair right. *grin*

I'm working on another project relating to social activism and the types. It doesn't have as many real-world examples because it's just uh more theoretical (the very nature of activism is more inspirational and not technical anyway), but maybe it will turn out okay.

I'm always up for a hug! I'll try to think of some examples of my duality relationships and post them later...as well as some descriptions of ISTps from my perspective.

[Shazaam]

The Se is also a great thing in my eyes; people who are too soft and allow others to push them over make me mad, hah.

Well personally it doesn't make me that mad, usually - just more annoyed. We just have to make a little effort to use ourselves sometimes even if it's our dual-seeking function. If an IEI just shuts down completely in hopes for the big to save us... that is of course unhealthy behavior. Although when I was depressed in my life I did do that a lot. (Likewise I think other IEIs can try to 'over do' out of desperation like my sister and come out just as depressed.) And when I did this instead of getting I received lots of and that I didn't really want. The functions play out when people are psychologically healthy not unhealthy. Until we get the right kind of help we need, socionics will be able to help/cure any of our problems I don't think. And yes I eventually DID get the I wanted but only when I stopped getting in my own way so to speak.

The socionics descriptions almost makes it sound like we have no independently within us, that is a false oversimplification. Obviously, everybody can use all functions to verifying degrees. Even our polrs.

Sorry I'm rambling...

I mean I'm sure sometimes we IEIs can be more susceptible to the phrase "Man I want some so bad right now, I need to get up and go to the store but I just can't...." though that doesn't sound like dual-seeking to me, more like just an unhealthy individual with generalized anxiety (or plain laziness but I believe things are rarely that simple). I think it is hard for us to conjure moments ourselves though, but when we live we kinda automatically do it in a clumsy way w/o thinking about it- so when we interact with others, they can fill in our gaps and give us the right kind of stuff. That seems to be how it works. Of course it's not just the Se/Ni thing why they are so good for us too but that's a different thread lol.

[Shazaam]

It sounds like you are getting more upset at an EII/LII's Se-polr than somebody with a Se dual-seeking function though, so my bad. I realized that already I just like to talk a lot sometimes.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Kristiina]

Good point. I didn't realize Ni leading were tactical. hmm.

It might be tactic/strategic dichotomy difference or just simply j vs p, but I'm definitely more similar to Scarlettlux than to bulletsandDoves. I always have a future objective. I have a goal. I use Ni on everyday basis to make sure I reach that goal. Seems to me this is the main difference between EIE and IEI.

[FDG]

I do have some goals, but I wouldn't say I use Ni daily to reach them. There are many ways in which I could reach them, and I try somewhat to "stay on track" steering my Te activities with Ni. That could also be related to the difference between process (ENFj) and result (ENTj), or rather process-negativist (making sure the goal is reached by taking action in order to remove all the possible obstacles) and result-positivist (making sure the goal is reached by being open to including whatever comes handy).
I am also not extremely certain about my goals. There are many things I could do, and I will try to adjust them according to which one will fit better the situation I will find myself into.

B&D's description seems to be very good for tactical Ni, definitely.

[Shazaam]

Yeah, probably stating the obvious here but this is an idealistic (yet well-explained & verifiable) example of and duality in the SLE and IEI. So all the other positive functions are playing out very well in the background all kinda at the same time, but that's a bit more complicated than I intend to get into. I might though if I think of a good example lol.

Functions are gonna behave bit different depending on what type I'm interacting with, as they will force some stuff out of me that doesn't feel as natural. LIE and ESE's good isn't going to mesh with my so well, that's for sure.