Dual-seeking suggestive function of INTjs (Fe)

[Kirana]

hi. i would like to ask this question: the INTj's 5th function is Fe. it says that

5. Suggestive Function - also known a "dual-seeking," this function is typically the most vulnerable to ouside influences and manipulation. It is not uncommon for a person to physically request help from another in regards to this function, as it often acts as a companion and helper to the 3rd function and indirectly to the 4th function. Sometimes a person can mistake this function for the 1st or 2nd functions

so this means that Fe in INTjs is

1. most vulnerable to outside influences
2. most vulnerable to manipulation
3. not uncommon to ask help from others regarding Fe
4. often aids 3rd function and indirectly
5. sometimes mistaken for 1st or 2nd functions

my question is, to INTjs and veterans of socionics, how does Fe manifest in INTjs with regard to the 5 items above?

i mean, i kind of think i know how this comes out in me, (and i have some other questions, like 'is it or is it not true that INTjs are often regarded by others as unable to empathise') but i'll keep that to myself first as i'd like to see what you guys have to say about it.

thanks.

[Kirana]

http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=1...r=asc&start=15

in this thread, FDG said something about INTjs craving Fe because it's their dual-seeking function. is this why i seek, above other friends, the company of the one best friend i have who has Fe as a dominant function? and why i crave relationships that (paradoxically to my day-to-day persona) make me feel emotional and ridiculously happy?

[Expat]

It means that theoretically you need a dual who will understand your emotions without your having to express them obviously, and who will react accordingly. Further, someone who will act as your "emotional interpreter" in your relations with other people.

The two types that can do that are the ESFj and the ENFj - your dual and semi-dual.

[Hugo]

intjs are emotionally sensitive, and therefore responsive to

[science as magic]

you know all those threads where intjs are whining about no one liking them? ...

[UDP]

I don't believe in whining in that regard.......


BUt I can relate to what is being said here.

[Zeia]

Yeah, I have a couple ENFj friends and I dont mind the Fe at all. Its kind of relaxing in it self, they can tell if I'm upset or if I'm just acting normal where as a lot of other people just think I'm angry or something all the time.

[UDP]

Yeah, I have a couple ENFj friends and I dont mind the Fe at all. Its kind of relaxing in it self, they can tell if I'm upset or if I'm just acting normal where as a lot of other people just think I'm angry or something all the time.

yes

[Kirana]

emotionally responsive as in responding readily with own emotions, yes. but feeling other people's emotions? i thought the weak Fe in this regard was why we need Fe types as emotional interpreters in the first place.

[Kirana]

yeah.... the friend with Fe as a dominant function - she's ESFj. that's right. when i'm depressed or upset, i always call her first even though friendship-wise i have three people ranked equally as best friends. she just makes me feel better. with others, there's a pretty good chance they might make me feel worse.

and she definitely can tell you that although very much a feeling person myself i often have trouble feeling what someone else is feeling, even if i notice it. and i don't know when and how i should be making people feel better, and get along and all that harmonious stuff. and i know i have this weakness. she's my informal Fe coach. and i do talk about this weakness a lot, in the *ehem* 'whiny' threads. is that 5th position Fe, or 4th position Fe?

is it or is it not true that INTjs are commonly regarded as unable to emphatise, and if so, how is their inability different from an INTp's inability (Fe as PoLR)?

also, is it true or not that INTjs guard against feeling too much about others in general, reserving it only for a select few?

sorry for the lots of questions. i've read quite a bit about this and other weak functions, just thought i'd ask it publicly and get it over with.

[Zeia]

also, is it true or not that INTjs guard against feeling too much about others in general, reserving it only for a select few?

This is exactly how I am, usually I've only expressed any feeling to one person at a time in my life. Right now to be honest I've really only expressed my inner emotional self to one of my ENFj best friends.

[Hugo]

is it or is it not true that INTjs are commonly regarded as unable to emphatise, and if so, how is their inability different from an INTp's inability (Fe as PoLR)?

It is false that INTjs are unable to empathise. INTjs are emotionally sensistive to other people and their feelings whereas INTps are not (or very little).

[Kirana]

define emotionally sensitive. i see three possible definitions:

1. react emotionally easily
2. able to feel what someone else is feeling even if the feeling is unrelated to oneself
3. able to acknowledge someone else's feelings (i.e. not put your foot in your mouth when say, your colleague's son is sick)

i propose that for INTjs,

1. maybe, but tend to guard against it
2. not really.
3. yes, due to Fi in its 3rd position.

i had the impression that because of the position of Fe and Fi in INTps, they tend to do things like, in the scenario where say your colleague's kid is sick and she's sad and not concentrating on work, might say something like, "gee, sorry. now what about that purchase order?" whereas an INTj, not being totally clueless, might just about have enough sense to say "gee, sorry." and then go find her supervisor and ask how we're going to work around her distress. bearing in mind that the INTj doesn't actually
feel the colleague's worry and distress the way F types would.

[Hugo]

define emotionally sensitive. i see three possible definitions:

1. react emotionally easily
2. able to feel what someone else is feeling even if the feeling is unrelated to oneself
3. able to acknowledge someone else's feelings (i.e. not put your foot in your mouth when say, your colleague's son is sick)

i propose that for INTjs,

1. maybe, but tend to guard against it
2. not really.
3. yes, due to Fi in its 3rd position.

INTjs are definately able to feel what someone else is feeling even if the feeling is unrelated to oneself. However this is not the same for intps.

[Kirana]

ok, anyone else with an input?

better question, and one which should have been asked in the beginning, why would the INTj be emotionally sensitive in the 2nd sense? what in the functions of the INTj personality and/or it's(their) position(s), predisposes the INTj to be empathic to the emotions of others?


besides, for an INTp, Fe is their PoLR, therefore not only are they not empathic they are also unable to express/offer Fe from themselves without great discomfort. i would think that this is the better distinction between j and p.

[Kristiina]

i had the impression that because of the position of Fe and Fi in INTps, they tend to do things like, in the scenario where say your colleague's kid is sick and she's sad and not concentrating on work, might say something like, "gee, sorry. now what about that purchase order?" whereas an INTj, not being totally clueless, might just about have enough sense to say "gee, sorry." and then go find her supervisor and ask how we're going to work around her distress. bearing in mind that the INTj doesn't actually
feel the colleague's worry and distress the way F types would.

I'm not sure if an INTp is supposed to be less sensitive. Me and my boyfriend (INTp) often analyse things, including our behavior in general.

We have reached the conclusion that he tends to be more considerate with the feelings of others. I keep saying very insensitive things when I let my guard down (with our friends). But I am more likely to notice when one of our friends is not feeling OK. I can tell if they are annoyed, tired, happy or excited. But when he does notice, he is more likely to act the right way.
He controls his feeling rather well but I find it enlightening to let myself feel. I often cry when I'm watching a heroic or romantic movie. I am also less able to control anger. BF raises his voice so seldom that I haven't even heard him do it. There are stories of one time when he "almost raised his voice". Everybody was surprised.
I am more likely to be insulted if someone says the wrong thing or when criticized. I would say that I my "most vulnerable to outside influences".

I probably look quite emotional to some people, so others might mistake my 1st or 2nd function to be . I wouldn't make that mistake myself because I know that I am emotional only in specific situations and with specific topics and/or people.

[Kirana]

yeah, i'm like that a bit. i have quite a temper. i get annoyed easily when people say something that doesn't make sense or fallacious, and i get pissed off at injustice. often loudly. i also get annoyed by incompetence and really pissed off with betrayal. i used to be very explosive until i got a bit of a handle on my temper. i get emotional at some movies, and when i read books that are sad or moving, or poetry. because of this, i've tested as MBTI INFj once or twice.

but for some paradoxical reason, people (as in strangers) don't move me - i.e. i know what they feel but i don't feel what they feel. it's like i am able to empathise with fictional characters better than real people, especially people i don't know. i mean, when i'm at funerals and people are grief-stricken and sobbing, i don't feel sad. i know they are sad. but i am not. and i'm usually clear on what other people feel and what i feel.

the exception is people i am emotionally connected to, like a significant other, and sometimes my mother. an ex-bf used to complain that i'm too emotional. which i found quite insulting, the more so because it's true - i was uncharacteristically emotional around him. still, i don't like the image of myself as someone lacking emotional control.

but then again, the guy i'm sort of with right now encourages it, which makes me happy. and he gives me lots of Fe, too, which feels great - it's fantastic not having to explain my feelings or getting them misunderstood. usually i feel like an alien, always having to correct people on what is really bothering me. i sort of feel like i'm much more free with him, in terms of expressing myself.

[Kristiina]

yeah, i'm like that a bit. i have quite a temper. i get annoyed easily when people say something that doesn't make sense or fallacious, and i get pissed off at injustice. often loudly. i also get annoyed by incompetence and really pissed off with betrayal. i used to be very explosive until i got a bit of a handle on my temper. i get emotional at some movies, and when i read books that are sad or moving, or poetry. because of this, i've tested as MBTI INFj once or twice.

but for some paradoxical reason, people (as in strangers) don't move me - i.e. i know what they feel but i don't feel what they feel. it's like i am able to empathise with fictional characters better than real people, especially people i don't know. i mean, when i'm at funerals and people are grief-stricken and sobbing, i don't feel sad. i know they are sad. but i am not. and i'm usually clear on what other people feel and what i feel.

the exception is people i am emotionally connected to, like a significant other, and sometimes my mother. an ex-bf used to complain that i'm too emotional. which i found quite insulting, the more so because it's true - i was uncharacteristically emotional around him. still, i don't like the image of myself as someone lacking emotional control.

but then again, the guy i'm sort of with right now encourages it, which makes me happy. and he gives me lots of Fe, too, which feels great - it's fantastic not having to explain my feelings or getting them misunderstood. usually i feel like an alien, always having to correct people on what is really bothering me. i sort of feel like i'm much more free with him, in terms of expressing myself.

I can relate to that surprisingly well. Especially the part about boyfriends. :wink: And my ex-bf was totally justified to call me emotional and irrational (from his point of view ). We had a huuuge fight about once each month. The new bf doesn't give Fe, but he does give me much more attention when I'm playful and when I exaggerate my feelings. I haven't raised my voice at him, not even once, because I have enough emotional outlet. I get frustrated when I spend too much time with emotionless people. I just want to scream to see any emotion in their faces.

PS! I don't get sad about strangers either. Like, what do I care. It's not like I'd want to feel sad for no meaningful reason... feeling sad, because someone else feels sad, blah! Where would the world go... I might feel happier when someone else is in a really great mood. (Except when they are happy about the misery of someone else or when they are happy and gloating)

[Hugo]

Kristiina

what makes you think you are intj, and not intp.

The fact that you thoguht you might be istj is interesting, because in my opinion I think intps might think they are istjs because they both share + .

In a similar way I can see the infp description in me - being dreamy and seeing a bright future.

[Zeia]

Kristiina

what makes you think you are intj, and not intp.

The fact that you thoguht you might be istj is interesting, because in my opinion I think intps might think they are istjs because they both share + .

In a similar way I can see the infp description in me - being dreamy and seeing a bright future.

INTp's dont share

[Hugo]

They do. Because their second finction is - , they also have +

Similarly INTjs have - because their second function is +

This is slightly advance socionics

[Zeia]

They do. Because their second finction is - , they also have +

Similarly INTjs have - because their second function is +

This is slightly advance socionics

Oh, I see.

[Kristiina]

Kristiina

what makes you think you are intj, and not intp.

The fact that you thoguht you might be istj is interesting, because in my opinion I think intps might think they are istjs because they both share + .

Well... you have seen me around for quite a while. Would you say I'm INTp? I don't identify with INTp description much. I identify with general perceiving types description even less.

In a similar way I can see the infp description in me - being dreamy and seeing a bright future.

If dreamy is the same thing as daydreaming a lot, then I am also dreamy and I do dream of a bright future where people think I'm a genius and they give me lots of money! :wink: I find lots of interesting and similar details in the ISTj description and in a way it even fits me better than the INTj description, but only if you leave out everything that happens inside the mind. (ISTj on the outside, INTj on the inside )

[Kirana]

hmm... on the other hand, the closest type (other than INTj) that i identify with is INFj. except for that part where the infj can't say no to requests. although, i do find myself helping people out more often than not, when i think they should be helped, even though i grumble a lot privately when i do. i'd think 'dammit, why am i so ethical?!' but at the same time know i can't not do it - because it was right. i'd get into trouble on other people's behalf almost as much, maybe more than i would for my own behalf. although i'm not sure if that's nature or nurture. and also the part where the infj is depicted as having great control over his emotions so as not intrude upon others - i'm not so considerate. when i shroud my emotions it's self-protection, not to protect others. but the rest of it, i do relate to almost as well as the intj description. infp, not so much. i relate to the part where the infp restrains feelings in order to observe effects, but not most of the rest.

i often have issues with most ISTjs, although they don't annoy me as much as ESFps. ESFps irritate me, and i admit, sometimes more than they should, even when they mean well. i don't think the ISTj resembles me much...

[Kirana]

well, after i went through all that trouble trying to explain my feelings about feelings, i find this.

http://the16types.info/articles.php?article_id=5

i don't know about the quality of this description, but it does describe what i've been trying to say as is relevant to the topic.

specifically, this is what i mean when i said i know what others feel, but i don't feel what they feel.

"If the Analyst cannot find a way to express or stir his emotions, then he will become more and more depressed. By 'expressing' or 'stirring', this is not a simple matter of laughing more. It is genuinely feeling empathy with someone. The Analyst can put himself in other's shoes due to his Ne, but frequently cannot put himself in their heart."

and this is the paradox i've been trying to describe - both of wanting Fe but disliking to display it.

"Feeling emotions is a liberating experience for an The Analyst. However, feeling emotion exhausts him. It is liberating but exhausting at the same time. Unfortunately, genuinely feeling emotion is, for the Analyst, difficult, and he is also afraid of feeling emotions."

on empathy (or seeming empathy),

"His Ti is not very good at emotionally helping others. However, the Analyst appears polite and thus seems to be a good listener. He is a good listener, but prefers not to be burdened by the problems of others that he can do nothing about. The Analyst, since he wishes to use his Fi is a socially accepted fashion, means that he is somewhat unassertive and thus cannot dismiss these people who come to him with problems."


would have saved me a lot of trouble framing a description if i'd simply found this in the first place. and i wonder why there isn't one on the Critic. or any other type. oh well. anyway, more things to think about. and more digging to be done.

[Hugo]

INTjs get emotional. If they see something sad, they get upset. They feel it deep in their soul. Emotions are likely to be shown through tears rather than esfj type of emotions.

INTps wouldn't even become tearful. That's because of polr being .

[Kristiina]

so this means that Fe in INTjs is

1. most vulnerable to outside influences
2. most vulnerable to manipulation
3. not uncommon to ask help from others regarding Fe
4. often aids 3rd function and indirectly
5. sometimes mistaken for 1st or 2nd functions

I would like to sum up how far we have gotten on this list.
1. INTjs can get emotional quite easily (when there is a good reason) and then they will express it. They don't have much of a switch to stop from reacting, since they don't control their so well. This probably explains why INTjs tend to get caught in fierce discussions...
2. Again, INTjs don't control their reaction and feelings so well. That will leave them open for manipulation. I might only need a hurt puppy-dog to ruin their mood for hours. And that will lead to a different attitude toward the rest of the world...
But actually I'm not sure how to manipulate someones Extroverted feeling? I'm not sure if I understood the whole concept of manipulating .
3. I often ask advice from people I trust. I let them explain how to behave in certain situations and why. I feel like I'm ignorant, when it comes to the proper social behaviour.
4. ?
5. If the INTj doesn't even try to stop herself from showing emotions, she will act rather emotionally and might be mistaken for someone who finds feelings to be really important. I might get really excited about a pretty butterfly and I might get really pissed off if someone kicks a cat just for fun.

Now we should fill in the blanks: 4th and maybe also 2nd. What does it mean that it often aids 3rd function and indirectly ?

[Hugo]

Also INTjs can be very enthusiastic about something. I don't think the same can be said about INTps.

[Kirana]

INTjs get emotional. If they see something sad, they get upset. They feel it deep in their soul. Emotions are likely to be shown through tears rather than esfj type of emotions.

INTps wouldn't even become tearful. That's because of polr being .

ah, this i agree with. i like to think i'm tough, but when i have problems or something is making me sad, i can't talk about it or i'll cry. and if i'm alone, i'd probably cry. i just don't like people to know it. i don't like the 'emotional female' tag. you are right - my friend the esfj is good at making people happy etc. but now that i think about it, she hardly ever gets sad or cries about things. she doesn't seem to get bothered so much - the only time i've known her to cry is when she had her first fight with her bf, and thought she was about to lose him. me though - i've cried to her about lots more things. maybe she's more mature emotionally than i am. i don't know. maybe i'm melodramatic, which is what my mother the ISTj would say.

maybe i keep trying to control emotional displays because of the way i was raised. growing up, i talk about issues more with my dad, which is kind of weird for a girl - my mother doesn't abide tears much. she considers them self-indulgent.

[MySaviour]

Also INTjs can be very enthusiastic about something. I don't think the same can be said about INTps.

Eh...

[Kirana]

Also INTjs can be very enthusiastic about something. I don't think the same can be said about INTps.

expat said pretty much the same thing actually, recently.

does this include enthusiastically supporting an idea that i consider valuable/good or critical? and what about having strong opinions about issues? i agree with what kristiina said for #1. it took me 7 years to learn to calm down and pick my fights. not that i've learned it yet...

actually, kristiina, until you put emotions in this context, i didn't see it. i automatically considered emotions as empathy, harmony, etc. - the way my esfj friend exercises it. i guess i was taking a narrow view of it.

But actually I'm not sure how to manipulate someones Extroverted feeling? I'm not sure if I understood the whole concept of manipulating .

i'm not sure either, but my friend (the esfj) has this fascinating ability to make everyone friendly to each other, even though people were previously cross and having a bad time. she makes people at ease when they come over, even when her house is a mess and normally would not be conducive to relaxation. if you were to ask her, she wouldn't know how she does it either. she does not analyse, she simply does.

i don't know how it looks when Fe is aiding the and either...

[xiuxiu]

without reading any of this thread, i will say that whenever i am in the presence of strong Fe i am much more at ease. particularly in the company of FEmales... lol

[mimisor]

INTjs get emotional. If they see something sad, they get upset. They feel it deep in their soul. Emotions are likely to be shown through tears rather than esfj type of emotions.

Yes Hugo, that's the Fi as a role function. where is about feeling (capacity to empathize), only that it's not expressed outward, or if it is expressed at all it is expressed quietly, like tears for example or a sad face or a slightly smiling face, but not like crying out loud or bursting in laughter suddenly.

hmm... on the other hand, the closest type (other than INTj) that i identify with is INFj.

Kirana, from your posts I'd say I relate to you a lot, psychologically speaking, because that's socionics all about, so I think you're a genuine INTj. But in the end, I am of the opinion that no one else can decide for you.
Me too, I thought that INFj is the closest, but I realised was just an illusion.
XcaliburGirl, also doubted she is an INTj, and considering the INFj instead
here's the thread http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=483

It seems it is common for female INTjs to consider the INFj as the most poosible. I know I did. And it can be explained why is this happening, first because of the society's expectation you know, females to be ethical, and then, indeed the types are close. Basically, the Ti and Fi is reversed. For INTjs Ti is 1st, Fi 3rd, while for INFjs Fi is 1st, Ti 3rd. And the role function is the one that you think you should do. So imagine that, from here all the confusion.


btw we miss you XGirl wherever you are!

[UDP]

without reading any of this thread, i will say that whenever i am in the presence of strong Fe i am much more at ease. particularly in the company of FEmales... lol

I think I know what you mean