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Thread: Beta-Delta Quadra Relations and Interaction Examples

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    Default Beta-Delta Quadra Relations and Interaction Examples

    so I was at a get together tonight with:

    INFp,
    INFp/ESTp couple

    and:

    ENFp/ISTp couple

    and me (ENFp)

    It was really interesting to see the interaction. When one INFp would go into the depths of meaning about a topic (that was over my head), the other INFp would "understand completely." And I was confused at how they both undertstood the layers of meaning in the topic so quickly.

    Then one INFp would say some almost put downs about their career, and the ESTp (who barely knew this INFp) would jump in with encouragement, like "you're amazing! Just amazing at this!" and did it so naturally.

    Then when the ENFp reacted badly to something the ESTp said -- usually something impulsive like I'm going to do X huge decision now -- I would echo what the other ENFp said, which was basically something like "hmm...maybe might want to think that over first...etc."

    However, the other ENFp was much more blunt than I was, and at first glance I actually thought she was either ISTj, or ENFj. But after we typed everyone, I realized that her thoughts made perfect sense to me, even if she was more blunt. The ESTp had turned typing into a party game at this point, which was actually really fun.

    The INFp and ISTp (the two guys, both in dual relationships) got along very well and kept going outside and seemed to almost be whispering or something. Really understood each other there.

    Whenever the INFp tried to talk to me, I really tried so hard but couldn't seem to wrap my mind around his thoughts, and when I could I usually disagreed w/ him. However, the other INFp I tend to agree with easily, so may be a personality difference.

    I didn't even realize the ISTp was there really and assumed he was ISFj until we actually figured out what everyone was. I was surprised at how I completely had no social interest in him, since I'm always on the look-out for ISTp friends, and here is one right in the same room and I didn't even notice! Duh!!!

    But then we played a game and he helped me figure out a math part (of course w/o even stopping to make me feel like an idiot -- which we've all discussed as being an additional cool thing about ISTPs! I was having trouble w/ just about every mechanical details, such as shuffling cards, etc, and he either just did it himself or acted like it was no big deal. Meanwhile, the other ENFp is saying "omg I have so much trouble w/ that too!"

    After playing this game, I was like "wow!" And at that point his personality really stood out to me. So perhaps the ENFp/ISTp isn't so much a spoken thing. I can't figure out how these duals met though, because this ISTp is nearly silent and the ENFp girl isn't overly talkative until she feels comfortable.

    All in all, I was surprised how well Delta and Beta got along! I guess I shouldn't have been, but on the forum it can seem like the quadras are SO different and it was nice to see everyone just get along so well and have fun!

    Anyone else have beta/delta stories or anything?

    Oh, and one more thing about the ISTp...my first thought when trying to type him was "you're difficult." And everyone laughed and said they agreed, that he was difficult! And I said "oh no! I meant, difficult to type!" Where as, the INFp, I hadn't even asked him any questions when I said I thought he was an INFp and when I described it he completely agreed, so maybe it's more difficult to type your own dual?
    Last edited by jewels; 07-05-2008 at 06:32 AM. Reason: soo many typos!!
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    Yeah, I'm pretty much surrounded by betas.

    Mostly women.

    Nothing better then one with a healthy sex drive

    Anyway, their tons of fun. Great friends. Very attractive, love the passion they emanate.

    However, I couldn't see myself 'going the distance' with one.

    Although, my ex does come to mind...albeit it more an emotional judgement then anything.

    & I've heard that, supposedly, you don't notice/aren't attracted to your dual at first for whatever reason, which remains true of me. Admittedly, I have yet to REALLY interact with my duals, however past acquaintances don't leave me inclined to do so.

    <Crispy> what subt doesnt understand is that a healthy reaction to "FUCK YOU" is and not

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    heh, give us a chance!
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    heh, give us a chance!
    YOU give US a chance!

    @jewel: I enjoyed reading about your interactions tonight. Did these people know anything about socionics or did you just bring up the subject? I find that I tend to share this kind of thing with people, some show interest and some don't.

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbsirena06 View Post
    YOU give US a chance!

    @jewel: I enjoyed reading about your interactions tonight. Did these people know anything about socionics or did you just bring up the subject? I find that I tend to share this kind of thing with people, some show interest and some don't.
    Well I didn't bring it up, but my ESTp friend knew how into it (basically obsessed) I am, so she insisted I type everyone (in exchange for some other people doing magic tricks for me).

    I've typed people for the last few years though, usually when I get bored at social events, or bars. Everyone wants to know about themselves so I think if it comes across like a fun thing, people are like, dying to know.

    It's fun because sometimes I can just look at someone and be like "omg you're ____!" And other times I have a hunch, but ask them questions, or am wrong, etc. So it gets to be basically a fun guessing game and everyone gets involved. I think it's how you bring it up, and if it's clear that it's just a "for fun" kind of thing, people really like it. I've never discussed it "academically" or even mentioned the functions (except w/ very close friends). It's more "are you more focused on the present moment?" kind of questions and then I throw out a one-sentence type descrption to see if it rings true. So to them, it seems like I'm a fortune teller or something, to go from "do you plan things out?" To "I'll bet you don't like long-term obligations and routine and love adventure, am I right?" "omg! How did you know?"

    I also think people just like all that attention.

    Also, the way people react to being put on the spot and how they answer the questions tells you a lot also, e.g., that's how I knew the INFp was that type. He answered in very circular theory-focused hard to pin down, open-ended way and seemed uncomfortable with all eyes on him.

    It doesn't seem weird to the other people if it just seems like a fun party trick, but I still find it fascinating to see which people are obviously a type and which are a complete mystery to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    heh, give us a chance!
    to give you a chance, we have to first locate you in a room. Easier said than done! After all this time, I still am mistyping ISTps as ISFj...geez. I wish they would just wear a sign.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    to give you a chance, we have to first locate you in a room. Easier said than done! After all this time, I still am mistyping ISTps as ISFj...geez. I wish they would just wear a sign.
    We're the invisible ones. Or the ones who seem like we're bored when we're really having a good time
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    We're the invisible ones. Or the ones who seem like we're bored when we're really having a good time
    Well how the hell are we supposed to see you if you're invisible, Invisible Man????

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    to give you a chance, we have to first locate you in a room. Easier said than done! After all this time, I still am mistyping ISTps as ISFj...geez. I wish they would just wear a sign.
    I think I probobly come off a lot more ISFJ than ISTP in real life than any other type but it's probobly the most type furthest from my true type. I've asked multiple people to "type" me and that's the first one they always say. I don't know why.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    I think I probobly come off a lot more ISFJ than ISTP in real life than any other type but it's probobly the most type furthest from my true type. I've asked multiple people to "type" me and that's the first one they always say. I don't know why.
    People who don't know anything about socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    to give you a chance, we have to first locate you in a room. Easier said than done! After all this time, I still am mistyping ISTps as ISFj...geez. I wish they would just wear a sign.
    ha. thats strange that you say that.
    i didn't think anyone else thought they were alike!

    my best friend is probably isfj, but i'm not sure. my very good friend and former boyfriend is most likely SLI.

    conflictor vs. i forgot what enfj-isfj relation is?

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    bump for post above this that was in mod queue
    INFj

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    Quote Originally Posted by thePirate View Post
    & I've heard that, supposedly, you don't notice/aren't attracted to your dual at first for whatever reason, which remains true of me. Admittedly, I have yet to REALLY interact with my duals, however past acquaintances don't leave me inclined to do so.

    Yeah, I wish i could figure this out...how the duals seem invisible at first, yet you want to find them. It's almost like you have to communicate in a completely different way. Like for ENFps, maybe it's a matter of being open to "hearing" actions and sensory stuff, versus usual talking? If anyone figures this out, let me know.
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    Jewel, you sound so much like me with the whole fascination and obsession with observing people and noticing patters, etc. Your approach definitely sounds like a lot of fun, especially if you're managing to get something in return (magic tricks), despite the fact that you're enjoying the whole thing just as much. It's like getting paid for having fun!

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    Quote Originally Posted by qbsirena06 View Post
    Jewel, you sound so much like me with the whole fascination and obsession with observing people and noticing patters, etc. Your approach definitely sounds like a lot of fun, especially if you're managing to get something in return (magic tricks), despite the fact that you're enjoying the whole thing just as much. It's like getting paid for having fun!
    aww thanks! Yeah they were some pretty cool magic tricks, so socionics can be useful Do you ever type your friends?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    aww thanks! Yeah they were some pretty cool magic tricks, so socionics can be useful Do you ever type your friends?
    All the time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    Yeah, I wish i could figure this out...how the duals seem invisible at first, yet you want to find them. It's almost like you have to communicate in a completely different way. Like for ENFps, maybe it's a matter of being open to "hearing" actions and sensory stuff, versus usual talking? If anyone figures this out, let me know.
    I think if you've spent a lot of time in early life without the presence of duals, then purely through conditioning I suppose you become less aware of your need for your dual, although that's not to say the need becomes any less. My advice is know how to spot your dual (which obviously helps if you already know or have known them) and simply try and condition your mind to look out for them. It sounds like more work than it actually is. And also try to avoid thinking that your dual is some sort of rare or mysterious type, since then you'll probably end up looking too hard and missing what's right there in front of you. It gets easier with practice. I know because I've trained my ESFp detector pretty well since learning about Socionics

    EDIT: Come to think of it, I can't help but wonder if it's that whole myth that finding a dual is difficult that actually causes more people to experience difficulty in trying to find their dual. If that makes any sense whatsoever. Bah I dunno.
    Last edited by BLauritson; 07-05-2008 at 09:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    I experienced a not so pretty relationship once. When I was an undergrad, I hung out with two different groups of friends. One was mainly a Delta group, and one was a Beta group. In the Delta group there was an INFj. We confided in each other and did similar subjects; while in the Beta group there was an ENFj and we started hanging out because we both played guitar and kind of started a band. (Also, I was in awe of her FeNi, hehe.) Anyway, all of a sudden, INFj girl became jealous of my friendship with ENFj girl. This really stunned me, because I just presumed that other people (including INFj girl) would appreciate ENFj girl in the way that I did. I didn't know anything about socionics back then. It was classic intertype relations at play though.
    hmm. that's interesting -- I wonder if INFjs get jealous pretty easily, because I've had that happen w/ INFjs also. Maybe because they have a few close friends vs. more aquaintances? Also, the INTj I know has huge amounts of aquaintances -- that is your type, right? Or am I remembering that wrong?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLauritson View Post
    I think if you've spent a lot of time in early life without the presence of duals, then purely through conditioning I suppose you become less aware of your need for your dual, although that's not to say the need becomes any less. My advice is know how to spot your dual (which obviously helps if you already know or have known them) and simply try and condition your mind to look out for them. It sounds like more work than it actually is. And also try to avoid thinking that your dual is some sort of rare or mysterious type, since then you'll probably end up looking too hard and missing what's right there in front of you. It gets easier with practice. I know because I've trained my ESFp detector pretty well since learning about Socionics

    EDIT: Come to think of it, I can't help but wonder if it's that whole myth that finding a dual is difficult that actually causes more people to experience difficulty in trying to find their dual. If that makes any sense whatsoever. Bah I dunno.
    interesting. Like a self-fulfilling prophecy I'd guess. That could be very true! Only recently have I even been able to spot ISTps at ALL and this is after years of knowing about this stuff. Maybe it is a matter of not trying to analyze everything

    Hod did you train your "ESFp detector?" I'm just curious if it could be helpful.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    Hod did you train your "ESFp detector?" I'm just curious if it could be helpful.
    Hmm...that's a good question actually . I think it was more of a side effect of just learning to type people and I've been lucky enough to encounter quite a few ESFps since I started learning about Socionics. I tend to speed-type people also, that is make an early guess about their type and see how it plays out (part of this is based on resemblance to people I've typed previously, which is usually accurate, but not always). But yeah, I think learning to identify particular things which stand out from different types and things like that can help. I think ultimately it's experience more than anything which can help you. Typing's a skill like any other; the more you practice the better you get at it. And just keep in mind that it's possible for someone of any type to be in any situation, even though some types are less likely to be in certain places than others.

    An example of the speed-typing thing I mentioned is that last Monday when I went shopping, when I went to the checkout, the girl at the till looked similar to my ESFp ex, which made me wonder if she might be ESFp also. She was quite talkative, although it seemed like she was just saying what was on her mind rather than thinking it through; i.e. talking on impulse as it were. That and I was pretty stressed out from work that day and somehow in that short space of time she managed to cheer me up. So I left the encounter thinking "Yep, she was ESFp". It's very little information to go on, but I'm still confident enough to say that based on that information and my gut feeling about the whole thing, I'm confident that it was an ESFp I'd spoken to then. It's a largely intuitive thing really, but it can work if you practice it enough. Obviously you won't have 100% accuracy, but the more you do it the more accurate you get. But I'm rambling, so I shall stop myself now
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    Quote Originally Posted by jewels View Post
    All in all, I was surprised how well Delta and Beta got along! I guess I shouldn't have been, but on the forum it can seem like the quadras are SO different and it was nice to see everyone just get along so well and have fun!
    I liked your description of everything, it was really well articulated. btw I can see how ESTp, INFp, ENFp, ISTp would end up working, notice no conflictors! Also all irrationals so easy to have fun. I think ENFj, ISTj, ESTj, INFj would probably end up pretty positive too, albeit a very different atmosphere (everything meticulously planned 1 month before it happens lol)
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    I think ENFj, ISTj, ESTj, INFj would probably end up pretty positive too, albeit a very different atmosphere (everything meticulously planned 1 month before it happens lol)
    Hahaha, lol, that actually reminds me of myself somewhat.

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    ENFj-ISFj is Illusionary.



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    Default Beta-Delta Quadra Relations: really doomed or just in theory?

    I don't get it. I'm almost certain that I am delta. But I have a lot of friends that are Beta. It could just be my typing that is off, but the betas that I have come across in this forum, redbaron, Mimosa and a couple of others I can't remember the names of seem really cool as well.

    Are Beta-Delta relations really doomed or is it just in theory?
    n00bIEE

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    Your misunderstanding stems from the fact that you falsely perceive quadra conflict as the equivalent of a "doomed" relationship.

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    OK but the how pronounced is this conflict? More than with the other quadras?
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    Not being a member of the Alpha or Gamma quadras, I couldn't say for sure how pronounced it may be in comparison.

    Perhaps someone more knowledgable on the subject will post, but from my point of view, conflict often results in or occurs through misunderstanding of another's motives, reasoning, and expecting or wanting different responses than what's being received. Conflict can also occur through different ideas of what constitutes appropiate behavior in certain situations. All of which are things that can be worked through and will not necessarily prevent a friendship or bond of some sort from taking place.

    FWIW, I've known a few IEE males who've been very attracted to and in admiration of other SLE and LSI male's use of .

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    Why is there so much space under your sig?

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    cool post. I like the part about misunderstandings. Makes sense. I was under the impression that Betas and deltas simply couldn't stand each other. Maybe some Betas would like to comment on this

    My SLE sister is soooo cool. Sometimes I'll try and mimic her- In fact I have been a clone of her for the first eighteen years of my life
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    I have more than a couple good, positive, mutually-beneficial relationships with people who (I am pretty sure) are Beta. It's just that I probably wouldn't want to marry any of them, not that I can't work with and get along well with them. Really cool people come in all shapes and quadras.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Really cool people come in all shapes and quadras.
    Yes, that's it. And if you can get along with people of various types then you're cool.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dattebayo View Post
    I don't get it. I'm almost certain that I am delta. But I have a lot of friends that are Beta. It could just be my typing that is off, but the betas that I have come across in this forum, redbaron, Mimosa and a couple of others I can't remember the names of seem really cool as well.

    Are Beta-Delta relations really doomed or is it just in theory?
    infp's are an enigma they get along with everyone.

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    Default Beta/Delta Quadra Conflict?

    My entire immediate family consists of alphas and deltas (but no alpha NTs or ISTps). I essentially loathe the way they conceptualize most things, and am incessantly aggravated by the means in which they go about doing things.

    So today I'm downstairs with my Ne-ENFp dad and Fi-ENFp 15-year-old brother. They're fixing a computer (lol @ the deltas fixing something) and I'm browsing t.v. channels. Then down comes my Fe-ISFp sister, in a little approval-seeking pouty cloud of idiocy. As is her person, she diffidently strolls up to my dad and meekly whispers to him about what my 7-year-old Te-ESTj brother has done that "hurt her" (she is 10). I don't even hear the details, but from hearing her tone of voice and knowing her behavioral patterns, I know that this is not a big deal. So, I say insouciantly, "suck it up, jenna...quit tattle-telling, and get over it." Then my dad says some delta righteous crap about how it isn't my "place" to comment and mitigates my poor little sister that it's ok.

    What the fuck? Seriously. If we foster these ego-centric, negative behavioral cycles in children out of fear of hurting their feelings or whatever, we're only hurting them in the long run. I sort of saw this as me assessing things based on my Ti 'framework', if you will (general rules that should be upheld regardless of petty personal feelings), and Se 'positions' of things (explicit aspects of a situation which are not up for debate); while my dad did the opposite with Fi and Ne...maybe.

    Either way, this type of situation with my family is pervasive and annoying as hell. If you get "hurt," suck it up and move on—and keep your fucking mouth shut because others aren't here to be burdened with your pathetic complaints. You can disagree with me, say I'm cold, etc. But I won't change, because this is the most pragmatic method in my opinion. People aren't entitled to shit from others—not respect, sympathy, trust -- anything! And there is no place that I am intrinsically in or obliged to...unless you're dealing with the implicit hierarchy of deltas. ugh.
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    this is interesting. i'm glad you posted it.
    it's sort of foreign to me. the thing with Deltas is just that we don't like "tattle-tailing" but we do need to sort of "correct injustices." I mean, yeah, maybe what happened to your sister isn't a big deal. But, it's sort of like, then where do you draw the line? And also, if your brother is being an ass, your parents have to make a big deal out of every little thing he does, otherwise he'll grow up to be an ass.
    the whole sort of "suck it up" attitude is odd to me because it's like "why?" we're not in some sort of crisis state or war zone. we can and should assume and expect the best in people. there's no reason to make life suckier.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella View Post
    this is interesting. i'm glad you posted it.
    it's sort of foreign to me. the thing with Deltas is just that we don't like "tattle-tailing" but we do need to sort of "correct injustices."
    Right, ok. Well, I like to correct injustices too, but I evaluate the actions based on the specific context of the situation, the peoples' motivations, and sort of the effects of the actions within that context. I realize all humans share a general method of evaluating things, but this definitely does pertain to functions. The context of the situation that I assess things through is that of an explicit nature. There is no subjective/emotional connection, and things are parameterized by their interconnecting relationships that create a logically sounds whole; fuck you if you try to turn it into anything else. Then, I assess peoples' actions as disparate, intentional causal chains, and sort of trace the internal steps, gaining a sense of their motivations in that specific context (as it is explicit), which I then use to assess the overall picture. In this case, the situation was not a big deal, my sister was exaggerating, her motivations were egotistical and aimed more at getting approval and having my brother be in trouble than actually making things better (what the fuck does whining gain?). So my assessment was, essentially, 'shut the fuck up and move on'—because there was no conceivable reason why she should have done what she did. To be brief, I imagine the Fi/Te process is completely diametrical. I feel as though the "parameters" would be internally-derived, based on the relationship that existed between the people and not the "rules" of the situation. This, I suppose would reign superior to any internally-gauged sequence of intentional actions, rendering the only causal chains traced as external, gradational things. So, the focus would be more on 'what is the implicit relationship here, and what happened (ostensibly)', as opposed to 'what is the explicit context here and what were the peoples' motivations within this context?' What a beautifully elegant delineation between the Ti/Fe and Fi/Te methods of assessment (Ni/Se and Si/Ne are experiential).

    I mean, yeah, maybe what happened to your sister isn't a big deal.
    It wasn't. She's lucky I didn't go off on her for being the abject twat that she was.

    But, it's sort of like, then where do you draw the line?
    It is assessed situationally. This is where Ti/Fe differs from Fi/Te. It seems that with Fi/Te, the relationships are independent of any "context," as they are implicit. That, to me, is arbitrary bullshit. I draw the line when it needs to be drawn—and oh, do I enjoy doing it

    And also, if your brother is being an ass, your parents have to make a big deal out of every little thing he does, otherwise he'll grow up to be an ass.
    I don't think he was being an ass. To the best of my knowledge, they were engaging in their usual horseplay, and she got a little "hurt." Um, if you decided to engage in the situation, you consigned yourself to the potential consequences that could ensue. Don't cry like a fucktard when they happen. That's like me rollin' down to tha ghetto and complaining when I get robbed (I know, the Fi people, in all of their beautiful gestalt sense of relationships, will now tell me that I am completely wrong, because logically-correlational contextual comparisons don't matter to them).

    the whole sort of "suck it up" attitude is odd to me because it's like "why?"
    You have to "suck it up" because it is extraneous to assume that you can do otherwise (unless the specific situation allows for it—i.e. an accidental, unwarranted injury).

    we're not in some sort of crisis state or war zone.
    Yes, we are We just delude ourselves into thinking otherwise most of the time because we have laws and fences and dogs to hide behind. grrr

    we can and should assume and expect the best in people.
    To me, assuming the best in people is just as flawed as assuming the worst—and both of those are incorrect stances to take. I remain neutral and indifferent to people until they demonstrate who they are to me. It is situational and specific, not some general ethical code I impose onto reality.

    there's no reason to make life suckier.
    Nor is there any reason to make it better; it is what it is. Implicit assumptions are the downfall of modern ethical codes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    You have to "suck it up" because it is extraneous to assume that you can do otherwise (unless the specific situation allows for it—i.e. an accidental, unwarranted injury).
    I'm also confused as to why you think she has to "suck it up". Clearly, she doesn't; otherwise, she wouldn't feel she could go to her father to get it sorted out. Maybe she was exaggerating, but regardless ... it just seems kinda pointless to suffer through something when you don't have to. Like playing a martyr. That's more like being a baby imo. There's a needle in my foot, but I'm going to leave it there to make myself tougher. Knock yourself out, but it's a bit insane to expect others to do the same.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jem View Post
    I'm also confused as to why you think she has to "suck it up". Clearly, she doesn't; otherwise, she wouldn't feel she could go to her father to get it sorted out. Maybe she was exaggerating, but regardless ... it just seems kinda pointless to suffer through something when you don't have to. Like playing a martyr. That's more like being a baby imo. There's a needle in my foot, but I'm going to leave it there to make myself tougher. Knock yourself out, but it's a bit insane to expect others to do the same.
    She has to "suck it up" because bitching about it to other people does nothing to solve it and only wastes time and energy entertaining a situation that could have ended with her shutting her stupid mouth and moving on. And the whole reason she feels that she can run to daddy for sympathy is the fundamental problem: illusory entitlement to certain treatment from others—bullshit. And she wasn't "suffering" lol, christ; I mentioned how this assessment was situation-specific. As for the needle example, that is a bit different than this, but who knows, I might leave it in my foot, lol. Many a time I deliberately put myself through pain, and subsequently derive pleasure. There's no objectivity here. I don't expect people to volitionally endure pain; nor do I expect them to be able to impose their pain on others for mitigation. See how it's two-sided?

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    From a very abstract and dry perspective you're right; I also think that we come to the world without warranties of any kind.

    However, you seem to be oblivious to the layers of complexity. Knowing the principles by which simple things work doesn't immediately give you an accurate picture of how the derived system operate. It's like trying to solve medicine issues by throwing away facts about the chemical elements that compose the body.

    Above individuality there is a complexity layer where social interaction belongs. In such layer concepts such as sympathy, trust and respect not only exist, but are expected to be given and received. And you'll never be able to understand it in full if you try to solve it through Ti+Se.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    People aren't entitled to shit from others—not respect, sympathy, trust -- anything!
    From a very abstract and dry perspective you're right; I also think that we come to the world without warranties of any kind.

    However, you seem to be oblivious to the layers of complexity. Knowing the principles by which simple things work doesn't immediately give you an accurate picture of how the derived system operate. It's like trying to solve medicine issues by throwing away facts about the chemical elements that compose the body.

    Above individuality there is a complexity layer where social interaction belongs. In such layer concepts such as sympathy, trust and respect not only exist, but are expected to be given and received. And you'll never be able to understand it in full if you try to solve it through Ti+Se.
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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Right, ok. Well, I like to correct injustices too, but I evaluate the actions based on the specific context of the situation, the peoples' motivations, and sort of the effects of the actions within that context.
    i agree with this. and i do this too.

    I realize all humans share a general method of evaluating things, but this definitely does pertain to functions. The context of the situation that I assess things through is that of an explicit nature. There is no subjective/emotional connection, and things are parameterized by their interconnecting relationships that create a logically sounds whole; fuck you if you try to turn it into anything else. Then, I assess peoples' actions as disparate, intentional causal chains, and sort of trace the internal steps, gaining a sense of their motivations in that specific context (as it is explicit), which I then use to assess the overall picture.
    but this is not how i go about it. sounds very foreign to me.

    In this case, the situation was not a big deal, my sister was exaggerating, her motivations were egotistical and aimed more at getting approval and having my brother be in trouble than actually making things better (what the fuck does whining gain?). So my assessment was, essentially, 'shut the fuck up and move on'—because there was no conceivable reason why she should have done what she did.
    if i thought those were her motivations, then i would have had the same reaction. but a little less "shut the fuck up."

    To be brief, I imagine the Fi/Te process is completely diametrical. I feel as though the "parameters" would be internally-derived, based on the relationship that existed between the people and not the "rules" of the situation. This, I suppose would reign superior to any internally-gauged sequence of intentional actions, rendering the only causal chains traced as external, gradational things. So, the focus would be more on 'what is the implicit relationship here, and what happened (ostensibly)', as opposed to 'what is the explicit context here and what were the peoples' motivations within this context?' What a beautifully elegant delineation between the Ti/Fe and Fi/Te methods of assessment (Ni/Se and Si/Ne are experiential).
    i'm pretty sure that i consider both of these things. there are in the moment/situational "wrongs" and then there are more over-arching patterns of "wrong." So like it's possible that I would have thought that you're brother was being a shithead to your sister, but also that (from past experience) she likes to get him into trouble. In which case, they're both wrong.
    I don't think he was being an ass. To the best of my knowledge, they were engaging in their usual horseplay, and she got a little "hurt." Um, if you decided to engage in the situation, you consigned yourself to the potential consequences that could ensue. Don't cry like a fucktard when they happen. That's like me rollin' down to tha ghetto and complaining when I get robbed (I know, the Fi people, in all of their beautiful gestalt sense of relationships, will now tell me that I am completely wrong, because logically-correlational contextual comparisons don't matter to them).
    if this is true, then i agree with you. like, it's okay for her to complain when she ends up being the victim? but had she ended up hurting him, would she have inculpated herself? please.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    From a very abstract and dry perspective you're right; I also think that we come to the world without warranties of any kind.
    i agree with this. i would say that people don't owe you anything; and you definitely shouldn't expect it. but, there's still things that need to be considered "unjustified" in certain contexts, and by a neutral moderating party.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ritella
    if this is true, then i agree with you. like, it's okay for her to complain when she ends up being the victim? but had she ended up hurting him, would she have inculpated herself? please.
    Bingo. It's all about her little ego (or big). She wants socio-emotional control over people (okay, definitely tied to her over-arching patterns, lol), and will bend means to accomplish this. I wanted to curtail that annoyingly manipulative cycle—at least when it was utilized in my presence. If you're gonna manipulate people, at least be good at it. But crying like a histrionic retard, clearly veiling your self-serving motivations, will get you a nice 'shut the fuck up' from yours truly

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