Beta-Delta Quadra Relations and Interaction Examples

[Rubicon]

hmm...I may get attached to someone if I am supporting them in a substantial way, but if they're just dependent on me for some feeling of well-being, I get repulsed. I am here to help someone if they need it, but I wouldn't want them to 'give themselves' to me in such a self-defeating manner; I don't deserve that responsibility :d And yeah, if I see someone is constantly 'doing things' for me, I tend to move away from them, cause it's like, "I don't need you, are you trying to control me?" or something. But if someone is there to help me when I really need it, I will probably get more attached to them—especially if they do it out of their own volition, or notice the problem without me having to say anything. That is someone special. I think a real friend should always be that way; the rest of people can fuck off. And it's not some better/worse thing; you will just always have a very uncanny connection with a few people, which will pervade all interaction and precede any superficial 'agreements' and whatnot. Consummate, intense connection with someone is all I want; the rest of shit seems like a load of superfluous bunk. I think it's why I tend to value people and relationships so little on a general level; not because I disvalue people, but because the only type of interaction I truly feel is one where I lose myself in the other person, 'complete me' by 'attaining them' sort of thing.

Interesting. I don't really relate re wanting a person who just notices when something's wrong and helps out. Meh ... sounds odd, but I'd rather tell the person, sound them out for advice, or just ask if I need help. Because there are things that I may appear to need help with, but I'd actually rather work them out myself in my own time. And as far as other people go, I guess it depends on what sort of "help" it is. I like giving tangible help, but I sort of end up despising people who seem to be looking to me for advice or direction.

I just helped a lady locate her glasses (they were on her head ), and now the way she's talking and laughing to herself like a crazy woman isn't bothering me like it was before. lol

It's the opposite with me. I appreciate advice and inspiration, but when someone actually "gets their hands dirty" and does the work for me, I feel like they're taking something away from me, undermining my confidence and downplaying my abilities. Though if I'm feeling lazy, I may just take the help ... but it does nothing good for myself or the relationship.

How "intense" are you talking re the connection? A good connection is obviously necessary, but I'd rather it be more subconscious and underlying than overriding. I mean I think it'd get boring if you connected too well. :-p Just knew what the person wanted/ what they were thinking.... I'd rather keep my curiosity.

[strrrng]

Interesting. I don't really relate re wanting a person who just notices when something's wrong and helps out.

Well, I sort of meant that to me it shows something special when a person can notice the real thing that's going on with you without you having to tell them, and will approach you without you needing to reach out. That demonstrates real insight and genuine loyalty/compassion (to me).

Meh ... sounds odd, but I'd rather tell the person, sound them out for advice, or just ask if I need help.

Interesting. I wonder if this has to do with the more reactive style of 4s vs. the positive outlook style of 9s—wanting to 'lure someone in' vs. wanting to 'maintain a connection' or something.

Because there are things that I may appear to need help with, but I'd actually rather work them out myself in my own time.

I'm the same in this regard.

And as far as other people go, I guess it depends on what sort of "help" it is. I like giving tangible help, but I sort of end up despising people who seem to be looking to me for advice or direction.

Yeah, I feel the same way, generally. As long as they're not dependent on me for some compensatory psychological need/feeling, it's fine.

I just helped a lady locate her glasses (they were on her head ), and now the way she's talking and laughing to herself like a crazy woman isn't bothering me like it was before. lol

It's the opposite with me. I appreciate advice and inspiration, but when someone actually "gets their hands dirty" and does the work for me, I feel like they're taking something away from me, undermining my confidence and downplaying my abilities. Though if I'm feeling lazy, I may just take the help ... but it does nothing good for myself or the relationship.

I feel completely the same way.

How "intense" are you talking re the connection? A good connection is obviously necessary, but I'd rather it be more subconscious and underlying than overriding. I mean I think it'd get boring if you connected too well. :-p Just knew what the person wanted/ what they were thinking.... I'd rather keep my curiosity.

I don't mean connect like relate or any of that stuff. I mean pervade, like where the essences of who the people are just inexorably complete each other, and they combine to create a more consummate whole. Yeah, I literally want to 'lose myself' in someone, because that singular connection is the only way I feel 'alive'. I try to sort of achieve this type of connection with random things like exercise and stuff, but I know that it will ultimately come with another. One, maybe two people. That's it. You just know it when it happens, because it precedes any normal relationship. The fleeting hope.

[Khola aka Bee]

Your sister won the confrontation with simple tears. You were in it to win but your sister was a better strategist. Yeah it's pretty easy to blame your familly for their different values. Suck it up, there's nothing more pathetic than reading an emotional justification for a faulty belief structure. If you're smart you'll delete every post you made in this thread.

Timo Jansen

Wow. That to me directly translates to "I don't understand it therefore it's wrong." And there's more to it- it's not about winning, I don't think. I mean sure, given your perspective, his sister did 'win', but that's not the issue. His sister behaved in a way that was essentially immature and would get her absolutely nowhere in the long run. Think about it - imagine an adult that solved their problems by going off crying to the man over a mere trifle.

I mean sure, it worked in this instance and will probably work many more times in similar contexts, but nothing is really gained, she hasn't learned the appropriate way to deal with the situation on her own, and therefore she is reliant on others to come away happy. What happens when this becomes a habitualised response in her adult self and she tries some shit like that in general society with someone more unyielding? She's going to get her ass handed to her.

He was merely biting at her in a safer context to stop her from getting herself emotionally hurt by her actions over a longer term - the epitome of being 'cruel to be kind'. Plus she sounds like she was just being plain annoying, haha!

[strrrng]

Wow. That to me directly translates to "I don't understand it therefore it's wrong." And there's more to it- it's not about winning, I don't think. I mean sure, given your perspective, his sister did 'win', but that's not the issue. His sister behaved in a way that was essentially immature and would get her absolutely nowhere in the long run. Think about it - imagine an adult that solved their problems by going off crying to the man over a mere trifle.

I mean sure, it worked in this instance and will probably work many more times in similar contexts, but nothing is really gained, she hasn't learned the appropriate way to deal with the situation on her own, and therefore she is reliant on others to come away happy. What happens when this becomes a habitualised response in her adult self and she tries some shit like that in general society with someone more unyielding? She's going to get her ass handed to her.

He was merely biting at her in a safer context to stop her from getting herself emotionally hurt by her actions over a longer term - the epitome of being 'cruel to be kind'. Plus she sounds like she was just being plain annoying, haha!

Wow. You completely and beautifully get the essence of what I was saying, implying, and how it reached beyond the immediate context. I love you.

And don't worry about "Timo Jansen"—it's just Ashton (Post Office Warlord) in another desperate attempt to extend his internet kingdom.

[JRiddy]

Wow. You completely and beautifully get the essence of what I was saying, implying, and how it reached beyond the immediate context. I love you.

And don't worry about "Timo Jansen"—it's just Ashton (Post Office Warlord) in another desperate attempt to extend his internet kingdom.

All hail Timo, the glorious reincarnation of George Patton and Julius Cesar.

[Rubicon]

Interesting. I wonder if this has to do with the more reactive style of 4s vs. the positive outlook style of 9s—wanting to 'lure someone in' vs. wanting to 'maintain a connection' or something.

Yeah, that makes sense. (c:

I don't mean connect like relate or any of that stuff. I mean pervade, like where the essences of who the people are just inexorably complete each other, and they combine to create a more consummate whole. Yeah, I literally want to 'lose myself' in someone, because that singular connection is the only way I feel 'alive'. I try to sort of achieve this type of connection with random things like exercise and stuff, but I know that it will ultimately come with another. One, maybe two people. That's it. You just know it when it happens, because it precedes any normal relationship. The fleeting hope.

Yeah ... I can't really relate to that. I feel like I connect with people pretty easily - it's frighteningly easy for me .... not saying it's mutual :-/ lol. I'd rather feel like I'm giving myself to someone. That sounds really cheesy, but meh. I don't want to lose myself - that would be somewhat scary for me. I would get claustrophobic, and want to escape. Ideally, I'd feel stronger and more independent in a good relationship.

[strrrng]

Yeah, that makes sense. (c:Yeah ... I can't really relate to that. I feel like I connect with people pretty easily - it's frighteningly easy for me .... not saying it's mutual :-/ lol. I'd rather feel like I'm giving myself to someone. That sounds really cheesy, but meh. I don't want to lose myself - that would be somewhat scary for me. I would get claustrophobic, and want to escape. Ideally, I'd feel stronger and more independent in a good relationship.

hmm yeah. I guess that whole 'giving of self' thing would facilitate the 9's need for balanced connection. And I find that I can relate to people easily too, but the superficiality is always sort of pervasive internally, lol. That's a very interesting take on the 'losing yourself' thing—the image of suffocation comes to mind. lol, oddly enough, I feel suffocated when I'm existing normally—autonomously—in myself, in regards to that ideal relationship. Sure, I don't want any group affiliation, labels, to be controlled, etc.; but I fundamentally feel that I am not complete or alive until I have merged with the 'other'. I guess I would need someone with your kind of temperament to serve as an anchor of sorts. That way, I could lose myself in the person, and they would have the stability to 'hold me up', while maintaining their autonomy.

Wanna marry me?

[crazedrat]

you're right, and a relationship is essentially two parasites agreeing to suck eachother dry. The more parasitic a person is the 'nicer' they will behave from my observations.

[strrrng]

All hail Timo, the glorious reincarnation of George Patton and Julius Cesar.

And the long lost cousin of the noble Daniel Boone, master moon cricket stomper (and supermanner)

[strrrng]

you're right, and all relationships essentially are two parasites agreeing to suck eachother dry. The more parasitic a person is the 'nicer' they will behave from my observations.

Oh my god, yes. The more amiable, relatable, etc. they appear is completely related to some intrinsic need for them to latch onto you and milk you for everything you're worth.

What I described with the 'losing myself' wasn't like this, though. While I may 'merge' with the other person completely, I won't lose my authenticity, or be some dependent little bitch. It's more of a psycho-spiritual drive, rather than an insidious social tactic.

[crazedrat]

That is basically the reason I would rather suffer physical pain then have to be near an alpha type for an extended time.

[Rubicon]

hmm yeah. I guess that whole 'giving of self' thing would facilitate the 9's need for balanced connection. And I find that I can relate to people easily too, but the superficiality is always sort of pervasive internally, lol. That's a very interesting take on the 'losing yourself' thing—the image of suffocation comes to mind. lol, oddly enough, I feel suffocated when I'm existing normally—autonomously—in myself, in regards to that ideal relationship. Sure, I don't want any group affiliation, labels, to be controlled, etc.; but I fundamentally feel that I am not complete or alive until I have merged with the 'other'. I guess I would need someone with your kind of temperament to serve as an anchor of sorts. That way, I could lose myself in the person, and they would have the stability to 'hold me up'.

lol I'd hate having all the power though. I'd appear to handle it ok for awhile - then one day, I'd just be gone ... and you'd be left there dealing with a broken heart and weird pets.

Wanna marry me?

With you telling our Alpha kids to "suck it up" and "shut the fuck up"? Yeah, I don't think so. :-p <3

[strrrng]

lol I'd hate having all the power though. I'd appear to handle it ok for awhile - then one day, I'd just be gone ... and you'd be left there dealing with a broken heart and weird pets.

It's ok, I already expect people to abandon me lol, as pathetic as that sounds. I'd probably cry tears of tormented joy when I saw you bolt out of the driveway. Fucking 9's and your balance...or whatever it is

With you telling our Alpha kids to "suck it up" and "shut the fuck up"? Yeah, I don't think so. :-p <3

yeah...the beatings might not work out lol...but if they were beta kids it wouldn't matter

[JuJu]

hmm...I may get attached to someone if I am supporting them in a substantial way, but if they're just dependent on me for some feeling of well-being, I get repulsed. I am here to help someone if they need it, but I wouldn't want them to 'give themselves' to me in such a self-defeating manner

Same... I'll go to any length for someone I love, but I can feel the difference--if I'm genuinely helping someone or if they're using me as a crutch... In one case, I'll feel empathy and deep respect; in the other, I'll feel used and broken.

All hail Timo, the glorious reincarnation of George Patton and Julius Cesar.

Descendant of Daniel Boone, famed American woodsman... Supermanner of Deb, mumu-clad martyr. Son of the devil. Lover of Bob. Superfluity of tears.

you're right, and a relationship is essentially two parasites agreeing to suck eachother dry. The more parasitic a person is the 'nicer' they will behave from my observations.

This isn't always true... I've been in a romantic relationship where neither partner had anything to sell... There was a different feeling to it--authentic beauty.

In general though, you're right--if someone seems too good to be true, they are... A few questions will get to the bottom of whether they're truly wise or just bullshit

[strrrng]

Same... I'll go to any length for someone I love, but I can feel the difference--if I'm genuinely helping someone or if they're using me as a crutch... In one case, I'll feel empathy and deep respect; in the other, I'll feel used and broken.

Yeah, if I get used—whether overtly or indirectly—it sort of sends me back into 'defective' mode, and I sort of brood on it and move on. But if I legitimately attach to someone, only to have it curtailed—especially abruptly—I go into some cataclismic state of tormented apoplexy lol. Seriously. Do not fuck me like that once I've connected to you; I already spoke of the nature of losing myself in someone. Because once that's happened, it's essentially like having a void created in myself—one which can never be repaired, only attempted to be compensated for, albeit through destructive means. Crimes of passion ftw

Descendant of Daniel Boone, famed American woodsman... Supermanner of Deb, mumu-clad martyr. Son of the devil. Lover of Bob. Superfluity of tears.

lmao...what a noble list

This isn't always true... I've been in a romantic relationship where neither partner had anything to sell... There was a different feeling to it--authentic beauty.

Ah yeah...the ethereal evanescence

In general though, you're right--if someone seems too good to be true, they are... A few questions will get to the bottom of whether they're truly wise or just bullshit

yeah...a few questions...lol...or something...

[Rubicon]

It's ok, I already expect people to abandon me lol, as pathetic as that sounds. I'd probably cry tears of tormented joy when I saw you bolt out of the driveway. Fucking 9's and your balance...or whatever it is

[Ritella]

Descendant of Daniel Boone, famed American woodsman... Supermanner of Deb, mumu-clad martyr. Son of the devil. Lover of Bob. Superfluity of tears.

lol. brilliant. that killed me.

[Steve]

Bingo. It's all about her little ego (or big). She wants socio-emotional control over people (okay, definitely tied to her over-arching patterns, lol), and will bend means to accomplish this. I wanted to curtail that annoyingly manipulative cycle—at least when it was utilized in my presence. If you're gonna manipulate people, at least be good at it. But crying like a histrionic retard, clearly veiling your self-serving motivations, will get you a nice 'shut the fuck up' from yours truly

I agree with your underlying evaluation of her motives, but I don't think she even consciously knows what she's doing - it's just conditioned behavior she's developed as a survival technique. I would probably be more inclined to just tell her the reality of what she's doing without the Fe "jolt-effect" you may package with it. I'd probably just tell her calmly "You chose to play with (your brother) and you got hurt, daddy's not gonna change your choices or blame your brother for your choice to play with him. There's an icepack in the freezer if you need it." (or something in a language someone her age would understand)

I guess it's a style difference in how we'd convey the message, which may or may not be function/enneagram/personality related. I just don't see the need to "jolt" someone into seeing reality, particularly a young kid. I prefer facilitate them letting go of their illusions gently and smoothly. Also I've found that when people are in sympathy seeking mode, saying a jolting comment at them may make them even more defensive and reactive and continue the pattern of self-victimization, depending on the person. Whereas I've found that just showing the person you won't get pulled into their game effectively turns their attacking into swinging punches into the air, hitting nobody. Eventually the punch-thrower sees it's pointless and can't turn the focus anywhere else but themselves, which is where it needs to be for them to awaken from their illusions.

[strrrng]

I agree with your underlying evaluation of her motives, but I don't think she even consciously knows what she's doing - it's just conditioned behavior she's developed as a survival technique. I would probably be more inclined to just tell her the reality of what she's doing without the Fe "jolt-effect" you may package with it. I'd probably just tell her calmly "You chose to play with (your brother) and you got hurt, daddy's not gonna change your choices or blame your brother for your choice to play with him. There's an icepack in the freezer if you need it." (or something in a language someone her age would understand)

I guess it's a style difference in how we'd convey the message, which may or may not be function/enneagram/personality related. I just don't see the need to "jolt" someone into seeing reality, particularly a young kid. I prefer facilitate them letting go of their illusions gently and smoothly. Also I've found that when people are in sympathy seeking mode, saying a jolting comment at them may make them even more defensive and reactive and continue the pattern of self-victimization, depending on the person. Whereas I've found that just showing them you won't get pulled into their game effectively turns their attacking into swinging punches into the air, hitting nobody. Eventually the punch-thrower sees it's pointless and can't turn the focus anywhere else but themselves, which is where it needs to be for them to awaken from their illusions.

If someone is ignoring reality, they need to be shocked into it. Anything less will give them an opening to continue their unhealthy behavior, or begin a new one IMO.

[Steve]

I had this edited in the other post but since strrrng already responded I figured it would be better to just make a new post with it.

Telling someone to "shut the fuck up", with all the charge those words carry, expresses annoyance, fuels negativity in the situation and gives the person an easy blame target for victimization - I'm not saying don't express how you feel, but just be aware that it doing so in that way, especially to someone who is either younger and/or vulnerable may temporarily make them continue what they're doing.

[Park]

I had this edited in the other post but since strrrng already responded I figured it would be better to just make a new post with it.

Telling someone to "shut the fuck up", with all the charge those words carry, expresses annoyance, fuels negativity in the situation and gives the person an easy blame target for victimization - I'm not saying don't express how you feel, but just be aware that it doing so in that way, especially to someone who is either younger and/or vulnerable may temporarily make them continue what they're doing.

You're such an Fe whore.... but I agree.

[jewels]

I agree with your underlying evaluation of her motives, but I don't think she even consciously knows what she's doing - it's just conditioned behavior she's developed as a survival technique. I would probably be more inclined to just tell her the reality of what she's doing without the Fe "jolt-effect" you may package with it. I'd probably just tell her calmly "You chose to play with (your brother) and you got hurt, daddy's not gonna change your choices or blame your brother for your choice to play with him. There's an icepack in the freezer if you need it." (or something in a language someone her age would understand)

I guess it's a style difference in how we'd convey the message, which may or may not be function/enneagram/personality related. I just don't see the need to "jolt" someone into seeing reality, particularly a young kid. I prefer facilitate them letting go of their illusions gently and smoothly. Also I've found that when people are in sympathy seeking mode, saying a jolting comment at them may make them even more defensive and reactive and continue the pattern of self-victimization, depending on the person. Whereas I've found that just showing the person you won't get pulled into their game effectively turns their attacking into swinging punches into the air, hitting nobody. Eventually the punch-thrower sees it's pointless and can't turn the focus anywhere else but themselves, which is where it needs to be for them to awaken from their illusions.

This sounds like a really smart way to deal w/ the situation, and I completely agree. I remember as a little kid I would throw tantrums all the time, until my dad would completely ignore me, stand up and take the newspaper in the other room. Then I realized it didn't work and stopped, lol.

could there be some sibling rivalry here and jealousy that the younger sister got her way Strrrng?

I think it's silly to assume that anyone best knows what will work in life for someone else. While it's not my own preference, I've seen people advance at work/other situations by throwing tantrums (guys and girls). So telling the girl to "suck it up" and shut up and not express her emotions doesn't better prepare her for life imho.

Making a fuss about wanting something can turn out OK. And as the girl grows up, it can turn into self-respect and assertiveness if she is parented well. Obviously she needs to be taught to take responsibility for her own behavior. But she is what, 10? Kids are childish.

[strrrng]

This sounds like a really smart way to deal w/ the situation, and I completely agree. I remember as a little kid I would throw tantrums all the time, until my dad would completely ignore me, stand up and take the newspaper in the other room. Then I realized it didn't work and stopped, lol.

That's one way to deal with it. I just don't think it's as sure-proof as curtailing it immediately (and abruptly).

could there be some sibling rivalry here and jealousy that the younger sister got her way Strrrng?

That seems too general for me to comment on. I was annoyed at how she was manipulating the situation, which would probably result in my brother getting in trouble for some inane bullshit and her satisfying her superficial desires.

I think it's silly to assume that anyone best knows what will work in life for someone else. While it's not my own preference, I've seen people advance at work/other situations by throwing tantrums (guys and girls). So telling the girl to "suck it up" and shut up and not express her emotions doesn't better prepare her for life imho.

It's not so much about throwing tantrums. It's just not feeling as though you have to depend on people to mitigate your anxieties and problems.

Making a fuss about wanting something can turn out OK. And as the girl grows up, it can turn into self-respect and assertiveness if she is parented well. Obviously she needs to be taught to take responsibility for her own behavior. But she is what, 10? Kids are childish.

Well, there's assertiveness, and there's whining for no substantial purpose other than immature emotional manipulation.

[jewels]

It's not so much about throwing tantrums. It's just not feeling as though you have to depend on people to mitigate your anxieties and problems.

I definitely agree with you here. I missed your point earlier if that's what you were saying, because I definitely agree that it's better to be able to deal w/ things yourself (so then it's a choice to ask for help or not).

[strrrng]

I definitely agree with you here. I missed your point earlier if that's what you were saying, because I definitely agree that it's better to be able to deal w/ things yourself (so then it's a choice to ask for help or not).

Yeah, I just don't want her to fall behind or get hurt later on when her expectations of how people are supposed to assuage her whenever she feels wronged fall short of reality.

[Kristiina]

My entire immediate family consists of alphas and deltas (but no alpha NTs or ISTps). I essentially loathe the way they conceptualize most things, and am incessantly aggravated by the means in which they go about doing things.

So today I'm downstairs with my Ne-ENFp dad and Fi-ENFp 15-year-old brother. They're fixing a computer (lol @ the deltas fixing something) and I'm browsing t.v. channels. Then down comes my Fe-ISFp sister, in a little approval-seeking pouty cloud of idiocy. As is her person, she diffidently strolls up to my dad and meekly whispers to him about what my 7-year-old Te-ESTj brother has done that "hurt her" (she is 10). I don't even hear the details, but from hearing her tone of voice and knowing her behavioral patterns, I know that this is not a big deal. So, I say insouciantly, "suck it up, jenna...quit tattle-telling, and get over it." Then my dad says some delta righteous crap about how it isn't my "place" to comment and mitigates my poor little sister that it's ok.

What the fuck? Seriously. If we foster these ego-centric, negative behavioral cycles in children out of fear of hurting their feelings or whatever, we're only hurting them in the long run. I sort of saw this as me assessing things based on my Ti 'framework', if you will (general rules that should be upheld regardless of petty personal feelings), and Se 'positions' of things (explicit aspects of a situation which are not up for debate); while my dad did the opposite with Fi and Ne...maybe.

Either way, this type of situation with my family is pervasive and annoying as hell. If you get "hurt," suck it up and move on—and keep your fucking mouth shut because others aren't here to be burdened with your pathetic complaints. You can disagree with me, say I'm cold, etc. But I won't change, because this is the most pragmatic method in my opinion. People aren't entitled to shit from others—not respect, sympathy, trust -- anything! And there is no place that I am intrinsically in or obliged to...unless you're dealing with the implicit hierarchy of deltas. ugh.

Good post, well written.

Actually deltas aren't always like that but you can never predict who has all rights and who has no rights. With close friends and family, they are very supportive. With strangers, they can be mean as hell! I was with a mixed-quadra group eating and someone was giving a speech. The two ENFps were quietly laughing and making comments like "can you get off the stage? please?" and "oh HOW DEEP...nooot." I'm sure people in the next table heard almost everything. Me and the INTj were a bit confused how to react, we quietly laughed when their mean comments were funny or even justified, but we didn't make any comments.

I'd say it's a distinction between close friends/family and strangers - that they don't care about strangers - but really they sometimes get all soft and protective for some people who they barely know.

And I agree with doing what needs to be done in the long run. I am already planning that if my baby starts to wake up at 6 a.m. every morning, then I'll just keep her up against her will in the evenings to adjust her sleeping pattern. If you think it's mean, then I say that it's mean for a baby to wake me up at 6 a.m., so we're even! I do understand that there will be feeding-times in the middle of the night and I can cope with that.

[Kristiina]

Yeah, I just don't want her to fall behind or get hurt later on when her expectations of how people are supposed to assuage her whenever she feels wronged fall short of reality.

well, one theory is that she needs all the support she can get from her own family. She's already going to school so she knows that people are actually mean and horrible. She knows she can't get any support from the big cold world. But she has the comfort that whatever happens, her family is right there to support her. I think this is one area where my family wronged me. I didn't get support from either home or family. When I did well in school, I sometimes got the comment that my sister did better. I think it kinda sucked. There has to be a balance between being supportive and being cold. If I was the parent I would listen to your sister's story and try to help her analyze what she could have done to help herself when she was bullied. If the brother really is bullying, have a conversation with him not to act like that. However, if the brother wasn't bullying and the sister was over-reacting, then I'd help the girl reach the conclusion that she has no reason to be upset.

[strrrng]

Good post, well written.

Thanks.

Actually deltas aren't always like that but you can never predict who has all rights and who has no rights. With close friends and family, they are very supportive. With strangers, they can be mean as hell! I was with a mixed-quadra group eating and someone was giving a speech. The two ENFps were quietly laughing and making comments like "can you get off the stage? please?" and "oh HOW DEEP...nooot." I'm sure people in the next table heard almost everything. Me and the INTj were a bit confused how to react, we quietly laughed when their mean comments were funny or even justified, but we didn't make any comments.

Yeah, that's how it feels—like there is some implicit hierarchy that I am at the whim of. I think betas can be stand-offish with strangers, too; we will just be more direct and expressive about it, instead of complacently snickering to each other behind the peoples' backs. And I know where you're coming from with that example. Sometimes it seems as though gammas/deltas (deltas tend to be haughtier about it; gammas are just deadpan) are simply blind to the emotional dynamic we continually try to upkeep. Many a time have I endured some cringe-worthy social situations with inter-quadra groups like the one you mentioned. I just try to redirect the current as best I can without losing stability.

I'd say it's a distinction between close friends/family and strangers - that they don't care about strangers - but really they sometimes get all soft and protective for some people who they barely know.

Yeah, they tend to be a little more individualistically-focused than us. Like, of course I prioritize my family; but it's done in a bit more of an absolute, 'fight for the team' kind of way, as opposed to the seemingly softer, 'this is our contained group' way that they go about it. And yeah, I don't get that random Fi integral empathy stuff they do; it seems completely out of nowhere.

And I agree with doing what needs to be done in the long run. I am already planning that if my baby starts to wake up at 6 a.m. every morning, then I'll just keep her up against her will in the evenings to adjust her sleeping pattern. If you think it's mean, then I say that it's mean for a baby to wake me up at 6 a.m., so we're even! I do understand that there will be feeding-times in the middle of the night and I can cope with that.

I like your attitude

[strrrng]

well, one theory is that she needs all the support she can get from her own family. She's already going to school so she knows that people are actually mean and horrible. She knows she can't get any support from the big cold world. But she has the comfort that whatever happens, her family is right there to support her.

This is very true. I am always aware of this on a general level, and over the years have made sure to send fairly consistent signals—mostly indirectly—to let my family know that when it comes down to it, I am there for them. The thing with my sister was directly derived from that—'tough love,' if you will. I only want my family to be the strongest unit possible, and if that means temporarily hurting some peoples' feelings, so be it. The overall goal supersedes the transient (and sometimes misguided) moods of individuals.

I think this is one area where my family wronged me. I didn't get support from either home or family. When I did well in school, I sometimes got the comment that my sister did better. I think it kinda sucked. There has to be a balance between being supportive and being cold.

I agree. Luckily, my family has always been supportive of me. I suppose my general mentality towards this area could be a result of feeling too supported, and realizing that it takes some harshness to get the result you want, a lot of the time.

If I was the parent I would listen to your sister's story and try to help her analyze what she could have done to help herself when she was bullied. If the brother really is bullying, have a conversation with him not to act like that. However, if the brother wasn't bullying and the sister was over-reacting, then I'd help the girl reach the conclusion that she has no reason to be upset.

Yeah, I think you're right that I should definitely listen, lol. At least then I can get a complete read on it, instead of shutting her down to simply 'toughen her up.'

[Steve]

I think it kinda sucked. There has to be a balance between being supportive and being cold. If I was the parent I would listen to your sister's story and try to help her analyze what she could have done to help herself when she was bullied. If the brother really is bullying, have a conversation with him not to act like that. However, if the brother wasn't bullying and the sister was over-reacting, then I'd help the girl reach the conclusion that she has no reason to be upset.

I agree. Say the sister is crying and throwing a tantrum expecting that people will listen to what she has to say AND side with her point of view. Well if you listen to what she has to say but help her to analyze what SHE could have done differently and guide her to the conclusion that she has no reason to be upset, that right there completely shattered her previous expectation of "When I cry I expect people to end up taking my side". Instead she cried and it ends with her seeing how ridiculous it was for her to cry in the first place, which is a very valuable lesson.

So now the next time she's upset about something and wants to put it out to others, she may or may not decide to do so, because now she knows the responsibility may come back around to her. However if she matures and steps up to take responsibility, she may want to put it out there to others because she knows that reality will be reflected back at her and she'll be able to see things clearly for herself, which is really what you want in the long run.

[Kristiina]

This is very true. I am always aware of this on a general level, and over the years have made sure to send fairly consistent signals—mostly indirectly—to let my family know that when it comes down to it, I am there for them. The thing with my sister was directly derived from that—'tough love,' if you will. I only want my family to be the strongest unit possible, and if that means temporarily hurting some peoples' feelings, so be it. The overall goal supersedes the transient (and sometimes misguided) moods of individuals.

I think that's very good. If you're doing that, then it's perfectly ok to sometimes say, "suck it up".

[leftylib]

My entire immediate family consists of alphas and deltas (but no alpha NTs or ISTps). I essentially loathe the way they conceptualize most things, and am incessantly aggravated by the means in which they go about doing things.

The dynamic can be difficult. My family is mostly delta with a tiny scattering of alpha. i find alphas more enjoyable alone than deltas. iwould rather spend time with alphas but sometimes i think deltas bring out the worst in alphas.

it would create a closed look wherethey think they know everything. and i think that can sometimes make you as a beta have to try to define yourself all the time. it did for me anyway.

i put a lot of distance between me and my family so i could try to figure our who i am or just enjoy who i am and seek out similar ideas. It's so easy to get caught up in what we dont like, as betas, and to forget to keep persuing what we believe in.

[Khola aka Bee]

This is very true. I am always aware of this on a general level, and over the years have made sure to send fairly consistent signals—mostly indirectly—to let my family know that when it comes down to it, I am there for them. The thing with my sister was directly derived from that—'tough love,' if you will. I only want my family to be the strongest unit possible, and if that means temporarily hurting some peoples' feelings, so be it. The overall goal supersedes the transient (and sometimes misguided) moods of individuals.

I totally identify with that, but I think I often really piss off my ILI dad with it. Here's what generally happens.

Mum (ESI) and I are having a conversation, it sounds rather heated, but we are just sorting things out really, both having a bit of a bite until we find a middle ground. Dad (ILI) overhears the argument and comes storming in from out of nowhere demanding that I take a more respectful tone and how dare I talk like that to my mother. Mum gives me a look that says "I'm a little annoyed with you right now, but this is silly, yet I am more loyal to him, this is making me uncomfortable". Dad sees mum pull a face and assumes I am hurting her feelings and it's an aggressive attack. Dad confronts me.

I get pissed off and yell at him to not come flying into other peoples' conversations when he has no idea what is even being discussed as it is disrespectful to us, and we're both adults, we can sort out our own problems. Dad makes some comment along the lines of me acting like a child and not deserving his respect. I start wanting to swear loudly and walk away and sit in my room away from both of them for a while, annoyed that they can't just deal with a problem and that it has to be misunderstood and dragged out.

I spend some time thinking it through and generally calming down and then sneak out and track down mum, who would've spent the time talking it through and explaining to dad that everything is fine. Mum and I cry it out a bit away from dad and end up closer and with more understanding, or she decides it's too much drama and she doesn't want to understand and we avoid each other for a while. A couple of hours later and we're all fine and it goes unspoken. Dad goes off and plays guitar, I sit in my room blogging about it all all talking to friends and mum plays some online poker for a while and does her accounts.

Haha, I love my parents Seriously I do.

At the end of the day we have some awesome arguments and people must think we hate each other, but if the sh*t hits the fan we all come together. They know I would just about die for them and vice versa, but I will not tolerate heirachy related stupidity either. See a problem, solve it, fix the balance, move on. No bullshit.

[strrrng]

I totally identify with that, but I think I often really piss off my ILI dad with it. Here's what generally happens.

Mum (ESI) and I are having a conversation, it sounds rather heated, but we are just sorting things out really, both having a bit of a bite until we find a middle ground. Dad (ILI) overhears the argument and comes storming in from out of nowhere demanding that I take a more respectful tone and how dare I talk like that to my mother. Mum gives me a look that says "I'm a little annoyed with you right now, but this is silly, yet I am more loyal to him, this is making me uncomfortable". Dad sees mum pull a face and assumes I am hurting her feelings and it's an aggressive attack. Dad confronts me.

I get pissed off and yell at him to not come flying into other peoples' conversations when he has no idea what is even being discussed as it is disrespectful to us, and we're both adults, we can sort out our own problems. Dad makes some comment along the lines of me acting like a child and not deserving his respect. I start wanting to swear loudly and walk away and sit in my room away from both of them for a while, annoyed that they can't just deal with a problem and that it has to be misunderstood and dragged out.

That's some bullshit. If I sensed that someone was encroaching on an exclusive conversation like that, I would first stare at them to send the message quickly, and if they insisted on being a righteous fuck, put them in their place. If you don't know the context and whatnot, best to stay out of it.

I spend some time thinking it through and generally calming down and then sneak out and track down mum, who would've spent the time talking it through and explaining to dad that everything is fine. Mum and I cry it out a bit away from dad and end up closer and with more understanding, or she decides it's too much drama and she doesn't want to understand and we avoid each other for a while. A couple of hours later and we're all fine and it goes unspoken. Dad goes off and plays guitar, I sit in my room blogging about it all all talking to friends and mum plays some online poker for a while and does her accounts.

I tend to brood on it too, although I usually end up rambling on about some societal flaw and divide in intellectual attitudes, etc. ugh. so frustrating. this is why I prefer not to deal with people lol. And they'll come back and act like it's all dandy, getting caught up in the moment, but whatever.

Haha, I love my parents Seriously I do.

Same :/

At the end of the day we have some awesome arguments and people must think we hate each other, but if the sh*t hits the fan we all come together. They know I would just about die for them and vice versa, but I will not tolerate heirachy related stupidity either. See a problem, solve it, fix the balance, move on. No bullshit.

Yeah, same for me, basically. I treat it like more of a hierarchy probably, but with the immediate family, that kind of explicit structure isn't necessary. But I know who is "here" and who is "there", and if you're there, don't come here mafia ftw

[Khola aka Bee]

Someone is gonna get a cap in their ass or some shyt

[iAnnAu]

My thoughts on this have basically been represented through the thread, but I'd like to touch briefly on 'em anyway ...

The manner in which you described your sister approaching your dad does indeed sound like she was making a bigger deal out of something than she should have, but it also sounds like you jumped in before allowing him to respond. So, you undermined his authority and openly confronted her. Now, your dad has two problems to face, and the earlier one is complicated by your sister's reaction to the one you created.

We really don't know much about the situation, only the brief details you provided, but I would say your sister (who is preadolescent, for cryin' out loud, give her a break) does not respect your authority over your father's, so since you placed your father in a position to have to contradict you, you have effectively undercut what authority you could represent to her in the future. She doesn't feel like you'll "have her back" even on issues that aren't petty and/or manipulative. And she has the memory of your dad "choosing" her over you, so if she truly is manipulative she may even be more inclined to play that up.

If I had been in your place? I see two options, and again, I could be off base with them because of how little I know about the situation. But I could have appealed to the parent first, by saying "C'mon, Dad, don't let her play these games. You know (younger brother) didn't really hurt her, and he shouldn't be punished on her word alone." Or I could have tried to pull the sister aside, and shared older-sibling style wisdom "Hey, I've been in this situation before. And let me tell you, you're overreacting. Look at it this way. etc. etc."

I grew up a middle child, and I was pretty damn jealous when I thought I saw my siblings treated differently than I thought they should or than I thought I would have been. But when I started leading my own life, I had to completely change that kind of attitude, because my home was far more fair than the real world. I also came to realize that different kids HAVE to be raised at least a little differently from each other, and my parents really did do the best they could. If you want to make sure your sister has the ability to "suck it up" (and/or that she doesn't grow up to be a manipulative, passive/aggressive drama queen) - wait until she's at least twice as old to start worrying.

[iAnnAu]

Just came across this ... what do you guys think?

Deltas do not believe they are above you when they are offering help. Deltas generally try to treat everyone equally, even if this "equally" manifests as "like shit". They can show favoritism, but will be surprised if you accuse them of it. Such beliefs as "some can be taught and others cannot" are not Delta beliefs. Beta beliefs are more along the lines of "those who want to, learn."

Yes, no, maybe, etc?

[strrrng]

My thoughts on this have basically been represented through the thread, but I'd like to touch briefly on 'em anyway ...

The manner in which you described your sister approaching your dad does indeed sound like she was making a bigger deal out of something than she should have, but it also sounds like you jumped in before allowing him to respond. So, you undermined his authority and openly confronted her. Now, your dad has two problems to face, and the earlier one is complicated by your sister's reaction to the one you created.

That's true, I should have at least given him the chance to respond, and if she continued to bullshit, I could have called her out on it. Timing is everything. I suppose my dad could have either agreed with me and told her to shut up, or agreed with me but explained it more nicely (since my assessment of her and the situation was/turned out to be right, anyway). But no, let's take our focus entirely away from the issue at hand and tell her not to worry about big bad nicky and that it's okay, he'll talk to michael (the brother), when that wasn't even necessary. And he's a pussy with this kind of stuff, because he's so fixated on being the nice guy that he doesn't know where to draw the line. So, I knew that he was going to be all diplomatic and console her on something she didn't deserve to be consoled about, and which my brother didn't deserve some chastising on. So, I compacted all that into one solid blow; I hate wasting time on extraneous aspects of things

We really don't know much about the situation, only the brief details you provided, but I would say your sister (who is preadolescent, for cryin' out loud, give her a break) does not respect your authority over your father's, so since you placed your father in a position to have to contradict you, you have effectively undercut what authority you could represent to her in the future. She doesn't feel like you'll "have her back" even on issues that aren't petty and/or manipulative. And she has the memory of your dad "choosing" her over you, so if she truly is manipulative she may even be more inclined to play that up.

I suppose she could see it that way, re: authority. But if she does, she'll get corrected real soon And they know I have their back; we get along quite well most of the time. As for the age thing, I think kids need to be trained young, or else they will develop fixed behavioral patterns which will be incredibly difficult to change.

If I had been in your place? I see two options, and again, I could be off base with them because of how little I know about the situation. But I could have appealed to the parent first, by saying "C'mon, Dad, don't let her play these games. You know (younger brother) didn't really hurt her, and he shouldn't be punished on her word alone." Or I could have tried to pull the sister aside, and shared older-sibling style wisdom "Hey, I've been in this situation before. And let me tell you, you're overreacting. Look at it this way. etc. etc."

The first option could have worked, although I think he would have written me off and she would have given me one of her little Fe, pity-me scowls, at which point I probably would have pwned, so it wouldn't have mattered. The second option sounds good, but I really think she needs the point driven home a bit harder than an oprah session. Her bullshit is incessant, so temporarily correcting her with a band-aid probably won't do much.

Just came across this ... what do you guys think?

Deltas do not believe they are above you when they are offering help. Deltas generally try to treat everyone equally, even if this "equally" manifests as "like shit". They can show favoritism, but will be surprised if you accuse them of it. Such beliefs as "some can be taught and others cannot" are not Delta beliefs. Beta beliefs are more along the lines of "those who want to, learn."

Yes, no, maybe, etc?

Interesting. Although I think a lot of the time deltas (mostly the NF's...oprah, tolle...lol) do think they're above you when offering help. That aside, I think the individually-focused fairness is prevalent with them, but due to the lack of explicit guidelines, 'fairness' gets distorted due to that very thing. Whereas betas may be unfair on an individual level, but fair in the sense that their guidelines and assessments are consistent in themselves. I also agree that deltas tend to see potential in almost everyone, while betas assess people on more tangible, unchanging traits.

[jewels]

I thought Oprah was ENFj? Did everyone decide she's ENFp now? *confused*

[Steve]

I thought Oprah was ENFj? Did everyone decide she's ENFp now? *confused*

She's Fi ENFp. Delta in the most stereotypical of ways.