I dont "GET IT"

Creepy-Fry. · 01-11-2006, 04:05 AM

guy, I dont "GET IT".

This social awareness, i just dont get it. I dont get the interaction between me and other people. I always have trouble interacting with people, i dont know what i should be, how to interact with people who have different personalities...

Right now. I am potentially getting fired, because i am hired as a new employee, and my probation period is tomorrow. I did well in the company, i am the most knowledgable guy at work. But apparently, many of my colleages gives bad feedback about my performance, and my boss thinks that i am impotent, but i am actually the best guy at the company but they just dont realize.

gosh, other new hired employees alwasy passed their probation period, and my probation period was extented for 2 months because they need more time to think about my worth for the company.

it pisses me off. i am the best at the com, and they think i am not, and they passed the less smart guys but not me.

**Kirana** · 01-11-2006, 04:40 AM

you are not alone. i passed probation (after they extended it 6 months, AND put me under monthly assessment for those 6 months) by the seat of my pants, and only because my immediate boss risked his neck to insist on keeping me.

Creepy-Diana · 01-11-2006, 04:41 AM

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**Kirana** · 01-11-2006, 05:38 AM

civil engineering. i'm a construction engineer. the eng dept isn't, let's say, influential in my organisation. the sales people are. yet sometimes, you have to tell sales people that there is no budget for what they want, or that it is technically unfeasible, or that the timing is impossible, or that the process is different from what they want, and yielding to them would cause problems for everyone else down the road.

makes you unpopular. it makes you right, but unpopular. so i found myself in the paradoxical situation where my department, including my supervisor, was beginning to rely on me for opinions, decisions, courage and as a 'guardian', but my company doesn't think i'm good enough to pass probation. because i have no social skills. this is deduced from the fact that i piss off sales (although IT, procurement, and other uninfluential departments rather like me, or at least don't dislike me), the fact that i rarely smile in the elevator, like read magazines alone during lunch and don't say hi to people i apparently should have said hi to. so basically, even though i can work with a dozen suppliers, contractors, 2 dozen engineers, consultants etc, because two or three sales people disagree with me, i have no social skills. bloody extroverts. and this is when other people on probation still don't show nearly equal grasp for their work, and other people's work, as i did.

the only thing that saved me was the fact that my supervisor and my boss (both the former one and the present one) used their social skills to negotiate an extended probation for me, in order for them to report to HR what i've been doing all along for the first year anyway.

and then defended me when i'm right, against my detractors. they're great people. you don't find people like that often.

the problem with engineers is that we don't advertise our own nearly enough. leaves you open to character assassination by others.

well, anyway, now i've learned the hard way to watch my back at work.

actually, if they had brought up social skills by observing that i have trouble generating rapport with local authorities, etc. i would have taken them seriously, as that would have been a valid observation, and really is my area of weakness. but still, that can be worked on, and better than having so poor a grasp of budget and scheduling that you end up costing the company lots of money for not doing things first time right. but hey, if the company wants to shell out lots of money in losses for a guy who smiles in the elevator a lot, it's their money, right?

**Kristiina** · 01-11-2006, 10:42 AM

All that is getting me slightly worried... I'm still in university! My search for a job hasn't begun yet.

But Fry and Kirana, I think that you're taking the easy way out. It's very easy to look down when people approach you. It's easy to sit alone. But at the end of the day, you don't even want to think about other people. It causes delusions that the other people wouldn't have wanted to talk to you anyway. That you have nothing to tell them anyway.
You have to set a new goal - learn the art of smalltalk. If you think that people chit-chat for a reason then you are right, but the reason is not to exchange information. The reason for small-talking is establishing a relationship.

Have you ever noticed two people approach each other and then totally light up.
"How are you?", *smile,smile*
"I'm fine, how are you?" *smile*
"Fine. Haven't seen you in a while."
"Yeah, been busy."
"We should get together sometimes"
"Definitely. I have to go now"
"bye"
And during that, to only information that is exchanged is that they should get together. In my experience, even that is BS. Both think it would be fun, but they never actually make time for it. The point of this conversation was to make the other person feel slightly better about their day.

Start practicing soon, because it does take time. Try one day. Pretend that you are in a really good mood and smile a lot. Also talk to as many familiar people as you can. Think about any common ground that you two have and just practice. You will feel tired in the end, but good at the same time. PS! Warning, this might cause you to have more friends!

I have got a few friends like that.

Fry, what exactly are you worried about when you are already talking to someone else? There is something blocking you from opening up. What is it? (The anwer "Can't open up, 'cause I'm INTj" doesn't count!)

**Kirana** · 01-11-2006, 03:02 PM

i know you mean well, but i do talk to people, tyvm. and i've been working for more than 2 years now, not counting the half year i was working part time. are you sure you're intj? you're missing my point. the fact is that some people only see me in the elevator and at the cafeteria and then from that limited (non)contact make conclusions on my social ability - which are totally shocking to colleagues who actually work with me.

i don't want more friends, at least not without proper QC, and i certainly don't select them from colleagues.

they're too transient for that - from them can be found useful allies and strategic contacts, but you won't know them closely for long enough for me to establish whether they're worth my friendship.

i do the small talk thing with colleagues i've worked with. don't do it with total strangers. i'll simply forget who the heck they are tomorrow anyway, which would hurt them when they remember me. and i only do it with colleagues who backstab me when i am absolutely forced to. unethical people shouldn't deserve the time of day no matter how influential they are.

you can't tell INTjs to 'open up more' just like that. you have to explain it in a way they can understand. and you've got to show them how in a method that makes sense to them. i've personally worked out the 'opening up' thing by setting aside a class of personal info about myself that i've sifted and cleared for public dissemination, which i've deemed unthreatening to me even if others know about it. in return for judiciously offering this information in conversation, i understand that others will feel more at ease at my supposed revealing of my personal side, and therefore will be more congenial towards me. this is the only way that i've found that works for me. the way normal people do it, i.e. 'just open up' makes me feel wary and stressed and fake - because it is not my way. i'm doing the opening up thing purely as courtesy to other types.

the plus is, if you're not INTj, then you don't have to worry about any or all of this. i think simply the sight of an INTj pisses off some types who are in a superior position - they know someone who can't be bullied and it's threatening to them. whatever. i'm sure ENTps understand this too. and because you're quiet and introspective it makes you appear more alien to them. i'm told i sometimes look like i'm assessing people, and they're edgy about what i might be thinking about them.

**ENTpMale** · 01-11-2006, 03:18 PM

I'm an exec where I work. I have a workforce of about 150 in my group. My best advice for you is find a new job. The handwriting is on the wall. You can choose to ignore it, but don't surprised by what happens. What you're seeing is a poorly articulated statement, "You don't fit into the organizational culture." Find an engineering driven company, not a sales driven company and you'll find your workplace Nirvana. Your company sounds Sales force driven, and they have natural dislike for anyone who won't support them in blowing sunshine up a prospects ass. You may quote me on that. If you're presenting factual information that is significant to closing the sale and maintaining the ongoing business relationship and "they" are treating you like the enemy and it's corporately "okay", then you know what? The company isn't going to be around for long and the short sighted sales force can't focus past the next commission check. Clients aren't stupid. If you're finding issues, don't you think the clients own internal experts or paid independent consultants will find the same issues? Of course they will, and then the company, the tanned and wealthy sales group, and you will all loose credibility. Of course your boss will be the first to die, and that's his or her fate if they lack the "B" factor. That would be balls.

**FDG** · 01-11-2006, 03:29 PM

Your problem is that sales people are ESTp and ESFp.

**Expat** · 01-11-2006, 03:50 PM

Mostly, yes, ESFp and ESTp - -

But the main salesman where I work is an ENFp, and the sales manager, an ENFj.

Two old friends of mine are salespeople, one is ESFp, the other, ENFp. This is just by the way.

I agree that the situation is one of a ESFp/ESTp culture, where I must add that it's more ESFp than ESTp. ESTps are much more likely to perfectly understand the scenario that ENTP M described.

**Kristiina** · 01-11-2006, 04:30 PM

Originally Posted by Kirana

i know you mean well, but i do talk to people, tyvm. and i've been working for more than 2 years now, not counting the half year i was working part time. are you sure you're intj? you're missing my point. the fact is that some people only see me in the elevator and at the cafeteria and then from that limited (non)contact make conclusions on my social ability - which are totally shocking to colleagues who actually work with me.

i don't want more friends, at least not without proper QC, and i certainly don't select them from colleagues.

they're too transient for that - from them can be found useful allies and strategic contacts, but you won't know them closely for long enough for me to establish whether they're worth my friendship.

i do the small talk thing with colleagues i've worked with. don't do it with total strangers. i'll simply forget who the heck they are tomorrow anyway, which would hurt them when they remember me. and i only do it with colleagues who backstab me when i am absolutely forced to. unethical people shouldn't deserve the time of day no matter how influential they are.

you can't tell INTjs to 'open up more' just like that. you have to explain it in a way they can understand. and you've got to show them how in a method that makes sense to them. i've personally worked out the 'opening up' thing by setting aside a class of personal info about myself that i've sifted and cleared for public dissemination, which i've deemed unthreatening to me even if others know about it. in return for judiciously offering this information in conversation, i understand that others will feel more at ease at my supposed revealing of my personal side, and therefore will be more congenial towards me. this is the only way that i've found that works for me. the way normal people do it, i.e. 'just open up' makes me feel wary and stressed and fake - because it is not my way. i'm doing the opening up thing purely as courtesy to other types.

the plus is, if you're not INTj, then you don't have to worry about any or all of this. i think simply the sight of an INTj pisses off some types who are in a superior position - they know someone who can't be bullied and it's threatening to them. whatever. i'm sure ENTps understand this too. and because you're quiet and introspective it makes you appear more alien to them. i'm told i sometimes look like i'm assessing people, and they're edgy about what i might be thinking about them.

At least you were right in one aspect - I mean well.

I never said that I was good at communication, but I do find it extremely important. I also find it awfully difficult, because I'm INTj. Communicating with other people is one of the harshest goals I've ever set myself.
And just because I might not have gotten your point, doesn't change my type. Besides, I can tell an INTjs to open up, because an INTj would know that they are very reserved and that is one reason why it's not easy to start a conversation. The suggestion ain't that bad.
I don't think it would have been very helpful to just agree, that it's hard to live as an INTj. This is a common answer to topics like this one. INTjs tend to just give up with the illusion that INTjs are supposed to be very shy. ("but I can't help it. I can't change my type. Better get used to it.")
And you're just pissed because I told you that you are taking the easy way out. Sorry. Bad phrase to use.

It is very hard to communicate with most ESFp-s.

ENTp M, I do agree that the worker must be compatible with the general organizational culture. Good point.

Creepy-Diana · 01-11-2006, 05:39 PM

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**tcaudilllg** · 01-11-2006, 07:10 PM

You know I had a stroke of ...inspiration last night.

It was about how to use cross-typing to improve work place organization, and I think I've found utopia.

One of the most peculiar things about cross-typing is that a cross-typed person can have the same relation with more than one type. That means they can bridge the gaps between people who would normally not work well together. It is rare to experience this in an organization, because people are hired based on their rapport with the interviewer (job experience isn't a factor when the work is competitive), however in a given field of study, there are many different personalities involved, each of which adds their own perspective to the machine that advances the field, and each of which is independent of the other's authority. (given they are not a part of the same organization)

Take Einstein for example. He bridged the gap between the experimentalist view toward physics that INTJs like James Clerk Maxwell and Max Planke espoused, with the mathematical perspectives of Poincarie and Reimann. He paid the bills for an INTP who helped him understand the math of General Relativity, and was assisted in his search by the INTJ mathematician David Hilbert. Einstein could not have done his work without drawing upon the previous and current works of INTJs and INTPs. Indeed, many INTJs have since labored to prove his work correct through ever more ingenious experiments.

It seems to me that the same "natural selection" processes, which of course are governed by relations of type (basic and cross), that keep fields of study from stagnating can be used to partner people in any organization of similar skills in ways that are of maximum benefit to both parties in every case. Using cross-type, we can supersede these processes with a new non-random philosophy of management.

**FDG** · 01-11-2006, 08:18 PM

Originally Posted by Kristiina

It is very hard to communicate with most ESFp-s.

Try to use Te - which means, use statements of fact, do not explain the motivations behind them.

**anndelise** · 01-11-2006, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kirana

i've personally worked out the 'opening up' thing by setting aside a class of personal info about myself that i've sifted and cleared for public dissemination, which i've deemed unthreatening to me even if others know about it. in return for judiciously offering this information in conversation, i understand that others will feel more at ease at my supposed revealing of my personal side, and therefore will be more congenial towards me. this is the only way that i've found that works for me. the way normal people do it, i.e. 'just open up' makes me feel wary and stressed and fake - because it is not my way. i'm doing the opening up thing purely as courtesy to other types.

the plus is, if you're not INTj, then you don't have to worry about any or all of this.

ENFP here. I get disgusted at myself when I spontaneously "open up". Most of my experiences are those that 'polite society' prefers to ignore. I do like that idea about running through personal info and figuring out which ones are safe to talk about. Love the idea in fact. Now, just gotta find some time to introspect on that...(easer said than done!

)

As for the conflict at work about being the better candidate but not socially rapporting with fellow workers, I understand that issue as well. Ok, so not as an engineer and having all the technical expertise. I've left some jobs due to pressures to Fe despite the benefits I brought to the small company. It got to the point that none of us was comfortable with each other. Leaving was easier for me than attempting to stick it out.

Doesn't help your problem any. Just informing you that other types run into somewhat similar problems. *backs out of this conversation, kicking herself in the butt for extroverting herself into a conversation that had nothing to do with herself*

**mike_INTJ** · 01-11-2006, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by Fry.

guy, I dont "GET IT".

This social awareness, i just dont get it. I dont get the interaction between me and other people. I always have trouble interacting with people, i dont know what i should be, how to interact with people who have different personalities...

Right now. I am potentially getting fired, because i am hired as a new employee, and my probation period is tomorrow. I did well in the company, i am the most knowledgable guy at work. But apparently, many of my colleages gives bad feedback about my performance, and my boss thinks that i am impotent, but i am actually the best guy at the company but they just dont realize.

gosh, other new hired employees alwasy passed their probation period, and my probation period was extented for 2 months because they need more time to think about my worth for the company.

it pisses me off. i am the best at the com, and they think i am not, and they passed the less smart guys but not me.

if i had to guess, as it happened to me once - you didn't suck up to certain people. the one's to suck up to are the ones that suck themselves. i don't suck up to anyone, i wouldn't be able to even if i tried. the people around you might be jealous, or are very into the whole small talk thing, or the whole good morning thing.

i doubt it's your fellow employess, it's doubtful they would have that much to do with decisions. it's more likely (if not the suck up thing), that your making your boss look bad. and he see's you as a threat. i have one currently like that, but i think he keeps me on, because secretly i think he's taking my ideas. i know i'm not getting credit for them.

my last job was like that too. i came up with materials and ideas. my boss looked bad infront of his boss, and he got evil on me. i quit and contacted OSHA - as i had planned weeks ago.

Creepy-Diana · 01-11-2006, 10:35 PM

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**mike_INTJ** · 01-11-2006, 10:48 PM

Originally Posted by Kristiina

All that is getting me slightly worried... I'm still in university! My search for a job hasn't begun yet.

But Fry and Kirana, I think that you're taking the easy way out. It's very easy to look down when people approach you. It's easy to sit alone. But at the end of the day, you don't even want to think about other people. It causes delusions that the other people wouldn't have wanted to talk to you anyway. That you have nothing to tell them anyway.

it's not an easy way out - it's just the way it is. in a university, you have related topics to talk about, classes, etc - in the job world it isn't so easy. since you have to talk one way to one type of person and watch your words to others. though i tend to talk to the boss on the same level as i talk to the janitor.

i've tried talking to other people - but they really do not want to listen. either i bore them since i'm about computers and the like. they wander off or talk to a friend, as if i wasn't there.

You have to set a new goal - learn the art of smalltalk. If you think that people chit-chat for a reason then you are right, but the reason is not to exchange information. The reason for small-talking is establishing a relationship.

small talk only exercises the lips. extroverted people have to talk. they have to do something, they actually feel uncomfortable if there is silence (it's a negation tactic, remain silent, and the weaker of the two breaks down). it can establish relationship, but for what? more small talk? who want's that?

Have you ever noticed two people approach each other and then totally light up.
"How are you?", *smile,smile*
"I'm fine, how are you?" *smile*
"Fine. Haven't seen you in a while."
"Yeah, been busy."
"We should get together sometimes"
"Definitely. I have to go now"
"bye"

they light up because they have to "they are on". it's like a spot light and they have to perform. has anyone ever asked you "how are you today?" have you ever answered them truthfully? when i tell them i'm not feeling well, there are many who will say, "oh, that's good". then back track, because they weren't actually listening but making noise with their head. and then figure out an uncanned response.

And during that, to only information that is exchanged is that they should get together. In my experience, even that is BS. Both think it would be fun, but they never actually make time for it. The point of this conversation was to make the other person feel slightly better about their day.

i don't see the point. why talk to someone that clearly has nothing for you to gain from. to talk about things they don't care about. to invite people to things they have no plans on doing. just so they can repeat the process each and every day. they want to remain polite - but there is no such thing as polite, it's a view point.

i've even heard them saying it - if i have to do it, then you do also. if i say good morning to you, then you must say it back to me, it's isn't fair after all (they call it rude). why rude? i have no idea. the ones that say it to me do it because they want to. not because they expect to get one back in return. many people are selfish like this.

Start practicing soon, because it does take time. Try one day. Pretend that you are in a really good mood and smile a lot. Also talk to as many familiar people as you can. Think about any common ground that you two have and just practice. You will feel tired in the end, but good at the same time. PS! Warning, this might cause you to have more friends!

I have got a few friends like that.

i can't smile. maybe it's the muscle tone in my face. i try, but it's not natural, and it cramps my face. and when i do, they all ask me what i'm so happy about - and i say - "absoulutly nothing, you retard!" - not quite like that, but i'd like to.

i've found that i rarily have common ground with anyone. maybe the engineers - but that's all. the one's that count - no. i don't need friends where i have to tire myself out trying to impress them with my witty banter small talk. that's not what a friend is for.

Fry, what exactly are you worried about when you are already talking to someone else? There is something blocking you from opening up. What is it? (The anwer "Can't open up, 'cause I'm INTj" doesn't count!)

you should know yourself, an intj doesn't open up. if you do, they either take advantage, don't care, or can't handle the strain of what comes out.

Creepy-Diana · 01-11-2006, 11:06 PM

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**Zeia** · 01-11-2006, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by Diana

I'll flash a big grin at them if I have nothing to say. (which I usually don't have anything to say) That usually makes them relax and feel a little more comfortable, and if they want they'll say something, or just smile back. I really like old people because they usually appreciate that the most and you can tell that they're sincere when they ask questions or say something. I guess I just don't see the point of being cold if you don't have to be. Neither one of you gains anything from that.

But what does anyone have to gain from that? Flashing a smile or being sincere dosnt push anything forward. Its not my buisness to go around making everyone feel good about themselves, small talk only creates a bond between two people, and frankly, I can live without that.

Creepy-Diana · 01-11-2006, 11:33 PM

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**mike_INTJ** · 01-11-2006, 11:41 PM

Originally Posted by Diana

Originally Posted by mike_INTJ

small talk only exercises the lips. extroverted people have to talk. they have to do something, they actually feel uncomfortable if there is silence (it's a negation tactic, remain silent, and the weaker of the two breaks down). it can establish relationship, but for what? more small talk? who want's that?

I'm sorry Mike, but that just seems very cold, and arrogant. The weaker of the two breaks down? Eeesh, what are you a robot? "I must show my dominance. I must not show any feeling or compassion for anyone else. That is weakness." I don't feel uncomfortable personally in silences, but if I know that someone else does I'll flash a big grin at them if I have nothing to say. (which I usually don't have anything to say) That usually makes them relax and feel a little more comfortable, and if they want they'll say something, or just smile back. I really like old people because they usually appreciate that the most and you can tell that they're sincere when they ask questions or say something. I guess I just don't see the point of being cold if you don't have to be. Neither one of you gains anything from that.

of course it's cold! read about negotion tactics, they say that the average person can't stay in a quiet zone for longer than 30 seconds before having to say something. this is really why they talk, in a general sense. if not that, they make sounds.

i'm not saying that i do this, not on purpose. but other's may see it like this. if some grins at me, i assume they are laughing at me - and i want to know what the joke is. i just can't stand the people telling me why i'm angry - i should be smiling.

it's not about being cold. i'm fine with silence. i don't see myself as being cold - other's might though. and that's the problem, isn't it?

**Zeia** · 01-11-2006, 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by Diana

Originally Posted by Zeia

But what does anyone have to gain from that? Flashing a smile or being sincere dosnt push anything forward. Its not my buisness to go around making everyone feel good about themselves, small talk only creates a bond between two people, and frankly, I can live without that.

Wow. We're just on entirely different wavelengths. I am definitely, conclusively without a doubt not anything resembling an INTj. Why wouldn't you want to connect with other people? I guess I don't get this.

Its not that I dont want to, I'm indifferent to that, but that I simply cant. I dont relate to to most other people and no one really understands me or relates to me. The indifference is caused by a lack of emotion towards it, it dosnt help me in any useful way. Connecting to other people dosnt stimulate thought or anything in my head, it only excercising my emotions. Thus the friends I do have force me to think.

**mike_INTJ** · 01-11-2006, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Diana

Originally Posted by Zeia

But what does anyone have to gain from that? Flashing a smile or being sincere dosnt push anything forward. Its not my buisness to go around making everyone feel good about themselves, small talk only creates a bond between two people, and frankly, I can live without that.

Wow. We're just on entirely different wavelengths. I am definitely, conclusively without a doubt not anything resembling an INTj. Why wouldn't you want to connect with other people? I guess I don't get this.

it's the same way people don't want to connect to computers. or use electronics for fun, or think about heavy theories, just for the heck of it.

in general, people are boring. they rarily have anything at all interesting to say. why do i care that they got their shoes on sale? or the recipe to the yams they used at thanksgiving. or why they don't tan. or anything else for that matter.

people are best used as tools, props, dead weight.

friend checklist:

* do they connect with me - do they understand what i'm saying?
* do they have anything to offer me? do i have anything to gain from them?
* can i trust them? have they fallen outside the model i set up for them? can i trust them if i tell them something personal, or will they blab?
* do i have to create small talk with them? or can i just get to the point? will they get to the point?

i have many people around me, many use for the things i can do for them. they are only nice to me when they want something from me. once aquired, i'm thrown aside. and while i don't mind helping out, being useful to someone, i don't like being used. and many of those around me, will blab on for 5 min. or more before telling me what they actually want. they are wasting my time for their favor. i have to stop them and tell me what they want "get to the point already". it might turn them off, but i get the info i need. it's amazing how people will stall just to ease your feelings:

"mike, i don't want you to get mad or anything - but your fly is open" - oh my god! my fly is open, i'm a raging storm. mad? why mad? who knows, just tell me the goal, so i don't have to decipher the message.

**anndelise** · 01-11-2006, 11:57 PM

Originally Posted by Diana

Originally Posted by Zeia

But what does anyone have to gain from that? Flashing a smile or being sincere dosnt push anything forward. Its not my buisness to go around making everyone feel good about themselves, small talk only creates a bond between two people, and frankly, I can live without that.

Wow. We're just on entirely different wavelengths. I am definitely, conclusively without a doubt not anything resembling an INTj. Why wouldn't you want to connect with other people? I guess I don't get this.

Um, because "it doesn't push anything forward"?
---

A quick explanation of small talk: A brief nod, or a quick comment about something both can observe (like the sun finally shining after days of rain) is merely a way of acknowledging the existance of the other person. Even that stupid little question "how ya doin?" isn't meant to be taken literally as "i really want to know about you". (Unfortunately, some types do take it literally and will go on and on and on.)

Just as many extroverts expect introverts to extrovert more, many people oriented types expect information oriented types to orient towards people more. Unfortunately, those who hire/fire are generally people oriented types. And as long as everyone in the work place is getting along, who cares if the company loses money? (read as sarcasm)

Each orientation has its advantages and disadvantages, and it's usefullness in certain areas of the work place. Companies would do well to remember that when they interact with their workers.

A person who is gabbing at the water cooler isn't getting much work done. A person who is attempting to engage an information oriented person who is attempting to do his job and "push things forward" for the company is costing the company money. However, if that person oriented person is attempting to engage a customer/client, their skills might be gaining the company money.

Speaking of "pushing things forward", perhaps when an INTJ is expected to interact with others, they can view small talk as a way of "pushing things forward". Maybe?

Creepy-Diana · 01-12-2006, 12:38 AM

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**Transigent** · 01-12-2006, 02:43 AM

Edited for gayness.

**diamond** · 01-12-2006, 03:17 AM

Originally Posted by Transigent

Originally Posted by ENTp M

I'm an exec where I work. I have a workforce of about 150 in my group. My best advice for you is find a new job. The handwriting is on the wall. You can choose to ignore it, but don't surprised by what happens. What you're seeing is a poorly articulated statement, "You don't fit into the organizational culture." Find an engineering driven company, not a sales driven company and you'll find your workplace Nirvana. Your company sounds Sales force driven, and they have natural dislike for anyone who won't support them in blowing sunshine up a prospects ass. You may quote me on that. If you're presenting factual information that is significant to closing the sale and maintaining the ongoing business relationship and "they" are treating you like the enemy and it's corporately "okay", then you know what? The company isn't going to be around for long and the short sighted sales force can't focus past the next commission check. Clients aren't stupid. If you're finding issues, don't you think the clients own internal experts or paid independent consultants will find the same issues? Of course they will, and then the company, the tanned and wealthy sales group, and you will all loose credibility. Of course your boss will be the first to die, and that's his or her fate if they lack the "B" factor. That would be balls.

This guy is right. Find a new company.

Yes. And don't take it personally. Companies have their strategic plans and if you don't naturally fit, then that's it.

Go find a company that's like your own quadra! :-)

**Kirana** · 01-12-2006, 07:59 AM

thanks for the feedback, although actually i wasn't asking for any.

i was describing the problem i had last year. i've already got a strategy to extricate myself out of this, and yes, it does involve changing my job/company/career, depending on how things play out. and yes, i know it's more because the sales team seems to be dominated by ESFps. staying the course until the optimal timing still grates on my nerves though.

Originally Posted by Diana

Originally Posted by Zeia

But what does anyone have to gain from that? Flashing a smile or being sincere dosnt push anything forward. Its not my buisness to go around making everyone feel good about themselves, small talk only creates a bond between two people, and frankly, I can live without that.

Wow. We're just on entirely different wavelengths. I am definitely, conclusively without a doubt not anything resembling an INTj. Why wouldn't you want to connect with other people? I guess I don't get this.

i agree with zeia. although i don't actively shun people, i don't feel any particular desire at all to connect to people in general. i simply don't. i think it's because i don't need it in order to do work, and it's incredibly difficult for me to understand why others do. the way that i got around to enable myself to learn small talk is via observing that this is evidently necessary in order to induce other people to feel comfortable around me and consequently useful to obtain their co-operation. it's easier if the people involved have at least some qualities i respect, like my engineering colleagues. even the procurement people, despite being mired in red tape, operate with some kind of systematic logic and motivation, so with some difficulty i am now among the few people in my department who 'gets' them, and what it is that they want from us when they are being 'difficult'. but i'm effectively blind when it comes to Fe(i?), and i'm acutely conscious of it. i 'bond' more effectively if i do it through working with people rather than through small-talk, and without the feeling of fakeness too. some of my engineering colleagues are elevated to the status of 'valued allies - possible friends' by now.

so yes, entirely different wavelengths. academic life was definitely much easier (as i already knew even then), because the academic establishment, while often restrictive and didactic, is still structured according to a sort of system, and since it is a system based on merit, is more comprehensible to me. oh well. i don't know what's worse. to be in this quandary, or to have expected it beforehand!

it's not like i don't understand the value of the sales people being the way they are in their job. i do - i know that the way they are is exactly why they can do their job. heaven forbid that i should tell them how to motivate their temperamental retail dealers, and handle the politically influential ones. it's not my forte. but the understanding isn't mutual.

anyways, somehow i've hijacked the thread or something.

so sorry. plus this coincides with a need to vent at the moment, which addes bite to my post that ordinarily would not be present, i think. i'm feeling sort of like a pirate now.

**Kristiina** · 01-12-2006, 10:04 AM

There has been so much conversation, that there's no point in quoting anyone anymore. I agree with Diana more than with other people. In this topic, I'm on the same wavelength with her.

We INTjs do live our lives with our own logic. Just that the logic isn't always the same. I like chit-chat because it makes me feel like I fit in and it can prevent problems before they begin. I wouldn't ask a total stranger for advice (What kind of questions will be on a certain exam, that the other person passed the year before). But I would ask a chit-chat buddy. Small-talking is like putting money in the bank. It might be very beneficial later. And sometimes it doesn't even cost you anything later on. Really important information can actually be gained in a conversation which could be seen as standard chit-chat. And if you get really beneficial information then it's important to thank the other person (Now I'm really glad that I ran into you. I wouldn't have known that they want the paper by tomorrow.) The other person will actually feel happy about being useful. You can see it in their body language and facial expressions.

Sometimes the other person needs something from you and it's only minor inconvenience, but when you finally need them, it could be a matter of "life and death". For example, if you get along with your colleagues at work, they can defend you when someone wants to fire you. It is very sad when they are the wrong type, but if it's possible in any way, it's usually beneficial to get along with people. (there are no rules without exceptions)

**FDG** · 01-12-2006, 10:27 AM