Enneagram Type 4 vs. 7

[Gilly]

Confession: exlusiveness, status, and prestige do appeal to me on some basic psychological level, despite the fact that I reject those things on the level of personal ideology.

[redbaron]

Confession: exlusiveness, status, and prestige do appeal to me on some basic psychological level, despite the fact that I reject those things on the level of personal ideology.

Yes, I'm exactly the same.

[strrrng]

Nooooooo...... Read the freaking book!

Please...nobody rely on the online sources, okay?

I agree. The book is a goldmine of accurate information.

Gilly, I seriously recommend it to you (wisdom of the enneagram). Online sources more often than not convolute things, especially once you get into more specific descriptions.

[Gilly]

Another good point about the diff. 3s and 3-wingers have a tendency to do some of the same thing, but the problem is that, despite this, 4s are unavoidably "aware" of their inner "deficiencies" on a very tangible and painful level. This is what causes their fixation.

Average 3s, in contrast, seem to have a less malleable wall between their idealized image and their true "deficiencies." It seems to only break at severe points, while 4s seem to deal with their inner sense of flawedness more readily. Which causes them to deal with more of that push-pull, show-hide nature. EIEs can deal with this insecurity just as much as IEIs, causing the more extroverted 4w3.

Hmmm...when I am feeling emotionally stable I have the ability to not pay attention to my "inner flaws;" I'm not really focused on them all the time. More when I'm just sitting around alone, being lazy and such, at which point I kind of quietly contemplate them and think about how they are impacting me, how I can improve myself, etc. I'm big on self-improvement.

[strrrng]

Hmmm...when I am feeling emotionally stable I have the ability to not pay attention to my "inner flaws;" I'm not really focused on them all the time. More when I'm just sitting around alone, being lazy and such, at which point I kind of quietly contemplate them and think about how they are impacting me, how I can improve myself, etc. I'm big on self-improvement.

This is extremely important, as it is tied to the crux of the 4 personality: the search for an authentic identity. Like esper said, 4's are always aware of their defencincies, as they are constantly searching (or idealizing about the fantasy self). If you have the ability to not pay attention to your flaws, even when you're emotionally stable, you're probably not a 4. 4's at their best accept all their flaws and defencincies because it contributes to building the most authentic internal identity.

One thing I want to note is, you seem to look externally for resources and such much more than 4's. 4's tend to get lost in the inner landscape and whatnot.

[strrrng]

Confession: exlusiveness, status, and prestige do appeal to me on some basic psychological level, despite the fact that I reject those things on the level of personal ideology.

You basically just evinced that you are part of the object relations attachment triad. They seek to live through something which they deem as good. 3's are more about the external persona and image; 6's are more about devotion to an ideology, structure, etc. Themes of prestige and status are defining elements of this triad. A 7 or 4 would not really care about these things.

[strrrng]

Actually, I think it's common with 4w3, esp. SO variant, to look for things that "make" them not so flawed. If they are "better" than the others then they can be "special." If they are the most talented, the most different, the most interesting, etc. It's only that they are close to the part of themselves that acknowledges internally that these are a coverup for their "flawedness" that makes them a 4 and not a 3.

Ok, so I guess it comes down to whether he does it in order to mitigate his flawed self-image or to attach himself to an external thing solely for security or prestige.

[aka-kitsune]

I also think I have a rather strong connection to 3 for a 7; 7s seem like they don't really give a fuck by nature, whereas I tend to have to make a little bit more of a point of not caring what other people think about me.

Not really. From the outside, it certainly may look like 7s don't care what other people think, but it really depends who you're talking about. They absolutely care about what their friends and intimates think of them. Not only that, but they do generally pay more attention to issues that 4s would think of as superficial (ie: how things "look" as opposed to their actual value).

Again, I do try not to get attached to people or rely on them to much, but that's more of something I've had to learn in order to deal with the conditions in my life; in reality I'm quite prone to getting overly attached to people or places.

Would you say this is obvious to the people you are attached to? ie: Do they know or are they usually looking for evidence? How do you communicate this? Directly or indirectly? Just curious.

As far as online sources, the ocean-moonshine site is the most accurate in practice. Riso and Hudson's stuff is good, but certainly not the Enneagram Bible to be quoted from and considered dogma.

[Gilly]

Not really. From the outside, it certainly may look like 7s don't care what other people think, but it really depends who you're talking about. They absolutely care about what their friends and intimates think of them. Not only that, but they do generally pay more attention to issues that 4s would think of as superficial (ie: how things "look" as opposed to their actual value).

I know, but they generally seem much more like "don't-give-a-fuck" kind of people. I try to project that image, to a degree, or I at least let people think I am that way by trying not to show it, but inwardly I care what other people think and can be seriously affected by it, sometimes even superficial things. Even a harsh encounter with a stranger can sometimes rattle me for a little bit afterwards if it reminds me of a past conflict or makes me question myself.

Would you say this is obvious to the people you are attached to? ie: Do they know or are they usually looking for evidence? How do you communicate this? Directly or indirectly? Just curious.

I actually talk about it quite candidly with my family, but nobody else; I'd be too afraid of them thinking that I was including them in the group of "people I try not to get attached to" and be offended/cause bad relations.

Ok, so I guess it comes down to whether he does it in order to mitigate his flawed self-image or to attach himself to an external thing solely for security or prestige.

It makes me feel good, important, gives me self-confidence (sometimes arrogance, if that is the general attitude of the group towards our "group-ness." Like for example my friends and I in middle school/late grade school considered ourselves punk-ish and very anti-prep, and I would treat people whom I saw as "preppies" with disdain, although I imagine it would have been transparent given any kind of questioning.) I don't know how else to explain it. I guess it just gives me a feeling of personal consequence.

[Gilly]

FTR I really don't think I'm a 6. I'm not hyper-loyal and reliable like they are; like I've said before, if I really feel like someone is depending on me to do something, like I am the only one they can rely on, then I will go to the max; otherwise I tend to be more whimsical.

[Gilly]

Side note: I have a friend who is 7w6 so/sx EIE-Fe. We are not the same type, I'm fairly sure. In our relationship, he provides the majority of the Se and Fi, and I provide the Ti and...I dunno, Ne maybe? He makes most of the effort to stay in touch and is more personable/outgoing; I give him advice and help keep him grounded; I'm more calculated and aloof, he's more gregarious and nervous. He helps me remember who I am, I help him be who he is.

[strrrng]

It makes me feel good, important, gives me self-confidence(sometimes arrogance, if that is the general attitude of the group towards our "group-ness." Like for example my friends and I in middle school/late grade school considered ourselves punk-ish and very anti-prep, and I would treat people whom I saw as "preppies" with disdain, although I imagine it would have been transparent given any kind of questioning.) I don't know how else to explain it. I guess it just gives me a feeling of personal consequence.

...

People with the attachment object relation tend to have a sense of contentment that their needs (with people, situation, thinks) are being met. Their sense of self is based on being deeply attached to things perceived as good.

now for the three...

Threes adapt their self-image to be consistent with the expectations and values of others. Threes are aware of what is valued by their friends, family, coworkers, etc. and they strive to attain those values.

hmm

[Gilly]

Well my persona definitely adjusts to my environment to a large extent.

[Gilly]

As far as IEI vs EIE goes, I think I have more problems with ignoring Fi than Ne.

[Gilly]

So Wisdom of the Enneagram is worth checking out? Hm.

[redbaron]

One thing I want to note is, you seem to look externally for resources and such much more than 4's. 4's tend to get lost in the inner landscape and whatnot.

No, I spend plenty of time looking externally for resources. It's the never-ending quest to understand. (isn't that the IEI hidden agenda?)

[Gilly]

Hmmm...I think IEIs tend to do more glomming-on to one external thing and then process it internally to an intense level, getting "lost in the inner landscape," as strrrng said, whereas I tend to just look at a lot of things and take ideas from different sources and combine them in my own system; when I get "lost," so to speak, it's because I realize via practice or personal implimentation that some of my external personas, ideas, or beliefs can be contradictory. I do do the former, to some extent, and when I do I tend to get REALLY lost or go WAY over the edge (case in point my venture in Lacanian psycho-sociology and Freudian analysis; ask Salawa, lol) but the latter is more my area of natural processing.

[redbaron]

Hmmm...I think IEIs tend to do more glomming-on to one external thing and then process it internally to an intense level, getting "lost in the inner landscape," as strrrng said, whereas I tend to just look at a lot of things and take ideas from different sources and combine them in my own system; when I get "lost," so to speak, it's because I realize via practice or personal implimentation that some of my external personas, ideas, or beliefs can be contradictory. I do do the former, to some extent, and when I do I tend to get REALLY lost or go WAY over the edge (case in point my venture in Lacanian psycho-sociology and Freudian analysis; ask Salawa, lol) but the latter is more my area of natural processing.

well I'm not sure if I glom or combine. I think I actually combine since I have a hard time trusting any one specific source. I like to see what's out there. But that could just be me.

[redbaron]

Hmmm...I think IEIs tend to do more glomming-on to one external thing and then process it internally to an intense level, getting "lost in the inner landscape," as strrrng said, whereas I tend to just look at a lot of things and take ideas from different sources and combine them in my own system; when I get "lost," so to speak, it's because I realize via practice or personal implimentation that some of my external personas, ideas, or beliefs can be contradictory. I do do the former, to some extent, and when I do I tend to get REALLY lost or go WAY over the edge (case in point my venture in Lacanian psycho-sociology and Freudian analysis; ask Salawa, lol) but the latter is more my area of natural processing.

well I'm not sure if I glom or combine. I think I actually combine since I have a hard time trusting any one specific source. I like to see what's out there. I process internally also but I have to keep going back to the sources periodically to make sure I understand and haven't twisted it around in my head. But that could just be me.

[Gilly]

Well maybe you're just expressing a healthy attitude by not over-doing either one

BTW, I just read some stuff on growth/disintegration. Thinking of it as security and stress makes a LOT of sense of me as a 3: when I am comfortable and healthy, I am self-effacing, honest about myself, and open; when I am under stress, I go into recluse mode and do pretty much anything to keep myself comfortable, quell my anxieties, avoid criticism (since I am inherently overly-critical of myself) and get a hold of my "internal peace." This might be the nail in the coffin.

[Gilly]

My question, redbaron, would be whether you choose your "core" beliefs by picking and choosing and seeing what works via implementation as a way of searching for possible contradictions, or by processing them internally and seeing what "makes the most sense," or what is least contradictory by nature. I do much more of the former, personally.

[Gilly]

Well that has happened to me as well. At school I was so obsessed with this image of being like a druggy culture buddha or whatever that when I realized that becoming "that guy" had actually distanced me from the people I saw (or wanted to see) as my friends, and made them think of me as more of some distant adviser figure or whatever than an actual friend/member of "the group," I went through a major escapist phase and isolated myself to the max, just smoking tons of pot and pretty much limiting regular contact to the person I was getting it from.

It's not so much that I naturally desire internal peace as I tend to run and hide and try to make myself "comfortable" when I feel like I have run out of air and people have me "boxed in" or something. One time when I had a bad trip I just barracaded myself in the shower away from everyone and obsessed for like an hour over finding a "comfortable" position, trying to quell my inner anxiety about people finding out terrible things about me. Also, during the acid trip that lead to my seizure, I was with the aforementioned group of people, and while I was coming up I obsessed about not "letting go" (always a bad sign) because I was afraid of blurting out embarrassing things about what I think about and such; I was afraid that they would hear the deep, dark secrets of what I think about and fear, and think less of me for it. I wanted very much to be their "leader," and I felt as though that image would be demolished by them finding out my personal secrets.

[Gilly]

Also as I think I may have mentioned before, when my 3w2 friend's only real confidante got kicked out of school, he went through this strange phase of similar behavior. I noticed him doing the same things as me: hesitating to "descend upon the masses," and, when doing so, just sitting quietly and getting high with us and participating in the group atmosphere to a very limited extent (whereas before he would have dominated it); like me, he lost a sense of familiarity with the group when he realized that he felt like he had so much to hide.

[Gilly]

Also, my idea of "internal peace" has more to do with physical comfort and satiating my anxiety. I think the desire to "know myself" is a more healthy one, whereas my desire for physical comfort and isolation is more unhealthy; it tends to lead me to major bouts of laziness and ends in serious escapism.

[redbaron]

My question, redbaron, would be whether you choose your "core" beliefs by picking and choosing and seeing what works via implementation as a way of searching for possible contradictions, or by processing them internally and seeing what "makes the most sense," or what is least contradictory by nature. I do much more of the former, personally.

bump. found this old thread. very interesting stuff on 7s in here.

and to answer the question, I don't know!