Se PoLR of INFjs and INTjs

[electric sheep]

or don't talk about it, just do it.

It's possible that this goes against your female programming, but talking about something like this with him probably does more harm than good.

[Beautiful sky]

Se PoLR

The individual tends to overreact to aggressive or confrontational behavior, taking it as a personal threat when it may only be a knee-jerk reaction or the result of a bad mood.

He tends to avoid intruding on others' space or engaging in behavior that may be perceived as coercive, and tries hard to handle his needs by being disciplined and well-prepared himself - rather than relying on others to do things for him. If these strategies fail, his efforts at dealing with the resulting conflict make him look actively pushy in a way that appears awkward and unnatural to others. This opens him up to painful criticism and feelings of weakness and helplessness.

He is able to moralize and instruct others about what they should do and why, but he is not prepared for others' active resistance or refusal to do as he says. In his mind, this would require him to put aside reason and good feelings and simply make the other person do what is necessary. This is extremely difficult, if not impossible, for him to do.

That's me.
Se PoLR has nothing to do with sexual activity.

Si is involved with sexual activity.

Si dual seeking:

"The individual tends to be chronically unaware of his own bodily processes, including physiological sensations and a sense of balance and alignment with one's true desires. He sometimes has peculiar preferences or tastes, which he himself is unable to understand or fulfill.

The individual almost never emphasizes his attractiveness or sexuality overtly and publicly, but dreams of being pleasing to the senses to at least a small circle of trusted friends and partners who are able to develop and enhance his sexuality and attractiveness in a trusting atmosphere."

So I think the person would like more sensitivity with regard to that approach.

LII like myself, EII have Si as an activation function, that means, when that is activated, when someone touches us in a sexual way, we don't withhold from that activity.

[electric sheep]

ok I have a problem with this because the way you're framing the issue is that there's something wrong with him and there's nothing that you can do to change it because he's the one that's performing poorly (or whatever he's doing wrong). So obviously if you try to talk to him like he's doing something wrong, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just imagine a girl saying to her boyfriend "ok we need to talk about your small dick." That's the quickest way to put him on the defensive. Once you start pointing fingers, all is lost.

You don't think there's a way to get him to do something differently without assigning blame? Tease it out of him! Try taking the lead for once!

Failing that, try talking about it in a way that bypasses Se and Si altogether. Try taking the academic route and bust out some diagrams, "accidentally" leave the kama sutra somewhere to be found. I dunno.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Do LII's have a hard time discussing sex things, like not during but later?

They are rather prudish over subject, even well developed ones will not be like ENTp's ime.

[Brilliand]

ok I have a problem with this because the way you're framing the issue is that there's something wrong with him and there's nothing that you can do to change it because he's the one that's performing poorly (or whatever he's doing wrong). So obviously if you try to talk to him like he's doing something wrong, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just imagine a girl saying to her boyfriend "ok we need to talk about your small dick." That's the quickest way to put him on the defensive. Once you start pointing fingers, all is lost.

This is troubling me as well... it strikes me as a role function reaction, and I haven't posted before now because I can't figure out why an ESE is putting pressure on (if indeed that's what's happening). can also be pressured in this way, though it doesn't seem like she's criticizing his physical prowess.

[Beautiful sky]

I'm afraid you are misinterpeting the problem. LOL (but that's because I am not being clear)...



This seems right. He does NOT want to talk about any of it... but that's a problem for me because it's what I want him to do, not what I should do.




This sounds like him. He needs sensitivity and to not talk about it. The problem is, he needs to understand certain things that he just doesn't... *sigh*

This whole issue has me super depressed today. :/

Darling, you are duals, I assure you fully. I would never lie. You can always trust that I am a fully honest person and I wouldn't say things just to add fluff. Honestly and surely you two can work it out. You just need to find a way to understand how or what his mind is doing right now. We're here to help.

[Brilliand]

I'll agree with Maritsa that it isn't a good idea to retype yourself right now... too many things that could cause you to wrongly retype yourself.

I suggest you just consciously try not to put pressure on . You need to make him want it, not convince him that he should do it...

Also, you've made plans that would involve the two of you having sex at some point, correct? (I'm thinking of your plans to have children.) Perhaps you could talk about that time... you might get some hints as to what his current thoughts are on the matter of sex.

[redbaron]

can you communicate with him in a non-verbal way, show him what you want him to do, or tease him in a flirtatious way? I'll bet this problem will take care of itself eventually if you leave it alone. First, focus on things you DO like and don't make him feel pressure or like he's less of a man because he can't make you happy! Let him know that he does make you happy in a million ways. And when he's ready, he'll address the other issue. :wink:

[Blaze]

don't ask, show. reinforce with gasps and "you are so fucking hots" and "i love thats" and "do that agains"

and, do it to him. HOT!!

[Creepy-male]

Lol I love how everyone commenting is not an LII, regardless I think actually Martissa is closest to the actually heart of the matter here with Se.

Se-PoLR is all about performing poorly in areas that are Se based. Exactly how LII's perform poor is like this:

The LII doesn't like to be forced to do things, the LII is all about reason (Ti leading) and civility (Fi role), so to them they find the entire idea of just forcing things on people and ordering them around to be brute like, they prefer reasons and deliberation and debate.

The problem is life requires the occasionally asserting of force, which is a center peice for the LII's akwardness. Its what makes them akward people.

For example instead of ordering a person to do something or being forceful with them they instead rely upon attempting to explain to them why it is reasonable to do whatever they are thinking the other person should do. They then expect the other person to do it without having to force them. Other types don't understand this approach, the connection between rationale and action is more muddy for them and they simply are just like "WTF, why is this person explaining this all to me"... they don't get it. Then the LII will become frustrated at their lack of attempts to put things in motion and may then become overly forceful, especially when the situation becomes more urgent. This baffles the other party because it seems to them that the LII is coming out of the blue with this forceful persona, and over doing it.

Se-types on the other hand are extremely tactful, they know how to implement the correct amount of force for situations. They won't over-force things because they are keenly aware that what they are doing is a subtle thing. They won't under-force things they realize are a difficult thing. They see a situation, appraise it up, and act with the according amount of pressure or force. This gives them a great tact. This is all because they pay attention to what effort is required to produce a result, rather than the rationale, rather than why that effort is required to produce the result, Se types strictly speaking are focusing on what needs to be done rather than why. This awareness builds in them this tact.

The end.

Now Sex.........

In sexual relationships, this can cause a problem because the LII will not know what force is required to express their sexual desires. They may akwardly launch in explanations of things and their Fi-role can cause them to be overly formal and proper at first. Not very romantic, but beneath that they are still sexual beings with desires. Of course, the problem is their inability to express these needs may lead to sexual frustration and cause them to akwardly come on extremely strong and in less of the free desireful way and in more of a willful forced way. Which is also repelling. This all stems from their lack of ability to know what force is required to achieve their ends, it all fits together in their mind so perfectly, but they can't simply just explain it, they too even realize this because of their role-Fi, in fact they feel like they understand the steps to success romantically but fail to put them into action because they know its improper (Fi-role) to simply outright say it and they are akwardly clumsy in utilizing Se to achieve it as explained above.

here is the important part to this rambling

It is likely the LII is express Fi-role, when they are prudishly not talking about sex, its important to understand the LII is not a prudish but aloof. They use Fi-role when they are not comfortable with people they are very formal and proper to avert problems. When their guard is let down emotionally they have the alpha-Fe and ego wise they express their Ti strongly.

LIIs sexual expression is a very mental thing also.

Alpha SF's calm the Alpha NT's down with Si and Fe and this makes the Alpha NT's let their guard down. With the LII their guard is very much centered around the Ti-base and Fi-role. Civil, Proper, Rational, Logical, and Formal. The important thing is once this is down, they are much more likeable I think.

[Creepy-male]

Thanks for the advice.

I do it all to him, but very little gets done to me, which is my problem. I rarely complain either, but every so often it builds up and I tell him how I feel. He just doesn't see a reason for doing extra stuff for me (except once in a while). Partly it's my fault that in bed I don't ask for what I want, but later I get frustrated and talk about it outside of the bedroom. But still...

EDIT: Re -- the bolded: how do you know I'm not doing that (because I am)... that's totally NOT the problem guys.

I think its the combination of Fi-role and Se-PoLR thats getting in the way, read my huge rambling post and maybe you'll gain some insight into the relationship dynamic, or maybe you won't lol, but give my post a read and see if its helpful.

[Aiss]

Partly it's my fault that in bed I don't ask for what I want, but later I get frustrated and talk about it outside of the bedroom. But still...

I didn't mean to reply to this thread, but this struck me as odd from the beginning - if you realize he's only comfortable with talking about sex in bed, why don't you keep this talk in, let's say, intimate setting? (Also, "I want it" might be better than "I need it", if he takes the latter for criticism.)

[Creepy-male]

Lol wow well, yea this not wanting to be told how to please you is Se-PoLR

So it seems like maybe you'll have to inspire him with Fe to make him want to please you in the specific way your looking.

Unfortunately men are much more like this than women with sex, they want to get finished with what they want and leave the woman hanging. Then again I know that men get a big rush out of pleasing their partner, its better than simply having sex with the living equivalent of a human corpse. So there is something attractive to men about providing and not just taking. You just got to inspire him to provide it.

Honestly also you may be more experienced that he is, he may not know how to please you in all the ways that you desire.... ahaha try to engage his Ti or something, I don't know..... this is akward talking about.....

best of luck

[marooned]

It sounds like his is sleeping. By this I mean his physical sense of touching and exploring. I have no idea how it would work, but maybe somehow if you could coax that part of him awake (not just in the bedroom, but in general) it would begin stirring things awake. It seems his Fe is asleep as well, as it sounds like he has very little "empathy" into your experience of things (as though he doesn't care--although he could on the inside). Anyway I don't know how you could coax these things awake and I imagine it would take time (and due to Se PoLR it would involve not using force at all so it's probably a very delicate process...). But I also think that suggestions just aren't going to work, because they will come off as criticisms in an area that he is already very uncomfortable/vulnerable with and feels incompetent in (perhaps), which could just push him into shutting down and sticking to the sort of regiment of what he at least feels safe with (i.e. whatever you guys are doing now where he doesn't have to do anything else--and thinking of it as what he would "have to do" is a very mentalistic way of seeing it... where as if somehow his Si/Fe were more awakened it might loosen that up). But again, it would take time and patience because one does not simply automatically expand a comfort zone on something they just feel totally incapable with. Confidence does not grow overnight. I suspect all pressure (if there is any) needs to be taken off (to help facilitate the loosening up).

[marooned]

As for the above bolded -- I agree. I also agree some men REALLY like pleasing their girl... my boyfriend does too but only seems to be super into that after letting his guard down, which happens after getting high, which doesn't happen anymore...

Ohhh, so I'm guessing this issue started when he got off the drugs. I can relate to not knowing how to get uninhibited without drugs. Well hopefully with time he'll come around again.

[redbaron]

You sound very ESE! You remind me of my husband. (Hmm, why is it that I tend to attract Si egos?) I have to say, all the Si men I know are REALLY into pleasing their partner in bed. And it sounds like you're that way too, which is cool. But you're right, relationships are always better when things are more equal and it's nice when partners can take turns. If I were you, I think I would also feel frustrated with that. Like "why doesn't he wanna do those things for me?" especially since you're so generous with him. I think I would get resentful in the long run. I hope you can work things out!

oh, and ESE always does the talking. LOL! I used to complain to him that he talked too much in bed.

[cracka]

I'd say in regards to this kinda situation, it's easier being an ESE male than a female...lol.

[redbaron]

I'd say in regards to this kinda situation, it's easier being an ESE male than a female...lol.

[Exodus]

ok I have a problem with this because the way you're framing the issue is that there's something wrong with him and there's nothing that you can do to change it because he's the one that's performing poorly (or whatever he's doing wrong). So obviously if you try to talk to him like he's doing something wrong, you're going to get a bad reaction. Just imagine a girl saying to her boyfriend "ok we need to talk about your small dick." That's the quickest way to put him on the defensive. Once you start pointing fingers, all is lost.

You don't think there's a way to get him to do something differently without assigning blame? Tease it out of him! Try taking the lead for once!

So it seems like maybe you'll have to inspire him with Fe to make him want to please you in the specific way your looking.

QFT.

(I'm LII.)

[Exodus]

"Quoted for truth." Sorry for misunderstanding, it seems like the situation is more complex and non-socionics-related than I thought. It sounds like the problem is more on his end than yours. That being said, the question is what is the best way to get through to him?

"The thing is, we usually don't have problems until he kind of just stops paying attention to me in a certain way for a few months... then the tension builds and I feel left out."

Maybe he doesn't realize how big a concern this is to you? I'm sure if you let him know how you feel when this happens he would want to remedy the situation, if he is psychologically able to do so. Of course the drug thing might be a problem...but I'm sure that will become a non-issue over time.

[Exodus]

Yeah, you may be right. It may be my own insecurities and a desire to not be too selfish that I hold back letting him know in the moment and then bring it up much later when it is very uncomfortable (and then it seems like a horrible problem to him because of my attitude and no matter what I tell him he still feels very attacked no doubt). Instead, I should deal with it when it's the, you know, "correct context".

Yeah, this is something I've noticed in a lot of SEIs and ESEs. I really appreciate the people-pleasing thing, but think of your own needs once in a while!

[Beautiful sky]

Is inability to repel aggression or expansion - in such cases tend to be either suspended or subject. At the same fundamental issues for themselves defending their position until the end.

The reason why we require protection is because of the inability to repel aggression.

Se PoLR in itself is NOT protection.

[EyeSeeCold]

Also, being seen as the subject(of the present).

I see PoLR connected to the depth of emotions in INFj, like PoLR is connected to ILI's cynicism and criticality.

A PoLR hit to makes INFjs turn a blind eye and focus on the future / ignoring the parts for the whole they make?

[ashlesha]

ESC, i think there might be something to that, but its too condensed for me to be sure.

Se polr as being unable to defend against aggression implies Se is aggression. i have trouble getting Se polr but i think i understand it best when i think about interactions with my ESI sister and how when she talks about one course of action to confront a specific problem my mind automatically branches out for alternatives and resists. i don't know how to explain that in a way that makes sense as a generalized statement about what Se polr is. like a resistance to direct action?

[stray]

Is inability to repel aggression or expansion - in such cases tend to be either suspended or subject. At the same fundamental issues for themselves defending their position until the end.

The reason why we require protection is because of the inability to repel aggression.

Se PoLR in itself is NOT protection.

You can't defend important/fundamental issues, and yet be unable to "repel". At least half of the time, these fundamental issues would have enough weight to them that they would repel or you would want to repel with them. Else you believe in nothing. Even Mother Theresa could demonstrate her authority and redirect others. Or maybe you would type her a SEE too..

To reduce your options to either being subjected or suspended through life is your own issue. Everyone needs assistance in different areas of life and all that, but you've taken it to the extreme.. where you've projected something akin to Dependent Personality Disorder on to an entire Type. And labeled the rescuer "LSE". I know you don't care one bit about what I'm saying, but it's unhealthy. Typology was never meant to have this extensive grip of power over every aspect of life. Not even Jung bothered using these ideas with many of his patients. He wrote a lot of this stuff as theory, meant to be shared with peers. It wasn't the end all be all of psychology to him.

[Lobo]

Is inability to repel aggression or expansion - in such cases tend to be either suspended or subject. At the same fundamental issues for themselves defending their position until the end.

The reason why we require protection is because of the inability to repel aggression.

Se PoLR in itself is NOT protection.

I disagree with the inability to repel aggression. Take a martial arts/self-defense course and lift weights to get stronger, if you're talking about physical aggression. I plan on moving to an efficiency in the near future and will make sure to buy a bat to put under the bed, lol.

If we're referring to PoLR as what makes you most uncomfortable to deal with, then I'd have to say that it's "action without thought," making impulsive decisions without considering all the variables. I remember something Bolt wrote a while back, which I think is spot on to, about how Se egos (I think it was "egos" in general) tend to have a specific approach towards strategy games, which is to just use rush tactics on their opponent and force, rather than calculated moves. That strategy is something very foreign for me to do.

If by PoLR we're talking about what we are very sensitive about, then I'd say it's matters of oppression/power dynamics. I notice negative power dynamics quite easily in some situations, as in, dynamics where one person is doing something out of the power exerted by someone else. Bullying pisses me off. Anything where a person is exerting their influence without taking into consideration the other's feelings and not respecting them by doing such.

[krieger]

Se egos (I think it was "egos" in general) tend to have a specific approach towards strategy games, which is to just use rush tactics on their opponent and force, rather than calculated moves.

heh. i do this.

(how are "rush tactics" and "calculated moves" mutually exclusive anyway?)

[Lobo]

heh. i do this.

(how are "rush tactics" and "calculated moves" mutually exclusive anyway?)

Realizing the value of a rush tactic, and seeing how in some situations it is the best tactic to beat another opponent, isn't really what I'm getting at. I've used rush tactics too at times in order to win, but it's not pleasurable for me. It's not something I would have developed had I not seen someone else use it.

(how are "rush tactics" and "calculated moves" mutually exclusive anyway?)

What I meant by "calculated moves" vs "rush tactics" is that instead of creating a complex plan of action, taking into account different factors that could present themselves in the game and preparing for those, you choose a tactic where the goal is to just overwhelm an opponent with brute force (massive army, etc) without much intuitive thinking and just clicking on a "spawn" button repeatedly.

[Nowisthetime]

I've mention this in another thread but there is an article about polr on this site

"Topics that break conversation with Se polr types: discussing modest means, orders, power pressure"

I think this "discussing modest means" is quite interesting.

[ashlesha]

I think this "discussing modest means" is quite interesting.

thanks. but what does this mean?

[Slacker]

thanks. but what does this mean?

I think "modest means" would mean like lack of money.

I'm LOVING this article, NITT!

[Beautiful sky]

I think "modest means" would mean like lack of money.

I'm LOVING this article, NITT!

Yes, it is the lack of money...I especially get embarrassed and feel pressured and even highly self conscious/guilty/ashamed when I have to think about not having money to do the things I want.

I, unlike Minde, can not ever with confidence say that "I'm poor" when I don't have money...I'll just live a scant life hoping that it's not too aware to others around me that I have a need for these means. I also value living modest means even when I do have money, out of the image that I want to portray, an ideal that I would like to show Humility and humanness in my own reflection, like being on the same level with everyone, even though I have more...I don't really like to show that I have less...but not extravagantly more either. This is a show of my aristocratic nature.

My Se ego type friends reveal their financial situations quite easily; they will say what little they have to eat...it makes me feel so sad when listening to it; I, on the other hand, can never say what little I have to eat or that I ate...I will starve to death... Even my Se demonstrative duals will speak about money and physical things/objects very easily. Just today, my dual friend, told me he owes money to the IRS because he had to use the money on essentials. I couldn't ever without great grief and humiliation ever disclose such matters; I haven't even been able to do this with my own parents. My mom, having Te, observed sometime that I was having trouble and stepped in to help; she knew I couldn't ask for it.


Often times, my SEE's BF (SLE type) would tell me to not let my SEE friend take advantage of me financially, because, he, with his Te demo, observed that she would often complain, openly and willingly about her financial troubles and that would solicit help from me. I would help her, but than would find that she would buy herself and expensive purse the following day without so much as considering to return me the money I gave; even though on occasion she would offer, I felt bad and refused her money in return.

Se PoLR does need protection from Se types, by our duals to keep people who use us at bay.

[stray]

That's interesting. I don't mind admitting I'm poor.. I don't have an explicit ideal about being poor per se. It just is what it is. I lose respect for someone who make swipes at others on that level as well. I like hanging around anyone who connects with others in different ways (art, philosophy, culture, hobbies, general friendliness, etc..). Doesn't matter if they are rich or poor. I figured my stance was actually kind of democratic. Not aristocratic. In the sense that I think people deserve respect (or disrespect) for who they are as individuals.

[ashlesha]

yeah, i can see the "discussing modest means" being distressing to me just in terms of anxiety over being able to afford basic things...being poor sucks, but that's because having to worry about things like food and shelter really sucks. i also have a really high sensitivity to the attitude that some people hold towards people with less money. it's one of the things i have a strong knee-jerk reaction about. i assumed these aspects of myself were upbringing related or related to primary sp instinct. i wonder how exactly this could connect to Se polr. i suppose reading the article might help, lol, it froze up my phone earlier but i'm on the computer now. *goes to read*

[jughead]

Se polrs over react and rage freak out and do stupid shit to other people in my expirience. They don't know the right amount of force to push back, when its called for etc.They look like fucking assholes with rage problems.
Either that or they puss out. They have two levels, puss or rage. 1d se

[EyeSeeCold]

Se polrs over react and rage freak out and do stupid shit to other people in my expirience. They don't know the right amount of force to push back, when its called for etc.They look like fucking assholes with rage problems.
Either that or they puss out. They have two levels, puss or rage. 1d se

I haven't seen any LIIs physically freak out, EIIs yes...

[Nowisthetime]

They don't know the right amount of force to push back, when its called for etc.

I agree with this for both LII and EII

[stray]

I agree with this for both LII and EII

I think it may be the case with ENps as well.

The point of, say, SEE, is their smoothness in these things. For some reason, they can get away with a lot or do it at the right time. To quote Will Smith: "I make this look good." j/k

[Beautiful sky]

I agree with this for both LII and EII

I do not agree with that statement as it applies to me. I'm a very gentle person. I have, on regular occasion, observed SEE types over extend their physical strength, grabbing things a bit too fast/hastily only to find that they've either broken it or that they have caused harm to it unknowingly. I have not either come across an EII where I may say that this statement applies.

[stray]

I do not agree with that statement as it applies to me. I'm a very gentle person. I have, on regular occasion, observed SEE types over extend their physical strength, grabbing things a bit too fast/hastily only to find that they've either broken it or that they have caused harm to it unknowingly. I have not either come across an EII where I may say that this statement applies.

I could see what you're saying, but I don't think that hastiness is type related. Some SEEs may be hyper, but that isn't necessarily a feature of their type. I know a SEE martial arts teacher who can calculate his strength when sparring or demonstrating something. And literally estimate it in percentages. "That was 30% of my power". He doesn't push it too far with people.. he'll teach adult males, kids, his own elderly mother-in-law, where it's geared personally for them.

On the other hand, he is too impulsive in other areas of life and has made some bad choices that lacked foresight in other ways. He (was) a rampant womanizer, for example (doesn't have that mother-in-law anymore either, since his wife divorced him).

edit: I just realized what he's doing with gauging his pressure could be construed as Si. But he's not a Si type, afaik. Most trainers of all types are respectful and adjust for people. Part of the job. Unless it's the Cobra Kai.