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Thread: ILI-INTp use of creative extraverted logic Te

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    Default ILI-INTp use of creative extraverted logic Te

    If an element functions by relating objective (-) forms of itself to subjective (+) forms, then how does this relate to the function ordering in Model B? Does the creative -Te of an ILI insist on the survival of personal truth (+Te) against objective truth (-Te), or does it test the objective against the personal for the sake of validating the rightness of subjective truths?

    is work, therefore -Te is the work done by the object and +Te is the work done by the subject. -Te, as an aspect, compells the work done by the subject to be responsive to it. However, what if one doesn't WANT to acclimate to the object, or what if one accepts some forms of -Te as valid, but not others? What would that mean?
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 06-08-2008 at 02:55 AM.

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    I'm sure there is a good idea in there, but I'm just not getting it. Could you rephrase maybe?

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    god i hate plus and minus blocks
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    If an element function by relating objective (-) forms of itself to subjective (+) forms, then how does this relate to the function ordering in Model B? Does the creative -Te of an ILI insist on the survival of personal truth (+Te) against objective truth (-Te), or does it test the objective against the personal for the sake of validating the rightness of subjective truths?
    The problem with your views is that you express them in mumbo-jumbo language, tcaudilllg. It is nonsense to speak in terms of "objective truth" and "subjective truth". It doesn't mean anything. You must change your language.


    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    is work, therefore -Te is the work done by the object and +Te is the work done by the subject. -Te, as an aspect, compells the work done by the subject to be responsive to it. However, what if one doesn't WANT to acclimate to the object, or what if one accepts some forms of -Te as valid, but not others? What would that mean?
    This is complete mumbo-jumbo. Change your language. Now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    but i still don't enjoy negative debates -- warnings, contradictions and such. nor i would enjoy being a type characterized by that. (although one possible interpretation is that some types are not privy to enjoying themselves -- but i find whatever cynicism i might have waning in older age, too.)
    I'd also say this is partially related to levels of "health" (if we can consider getting along with people as being more healthy than not getting along with them - certainly somebody could disagree)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I'd also say this is partially related to levels of "health" (if we can consider getting along with people as being more healthy than not getting along with them - certainly somebody could disagree)
    Indeed, this is another piece of the puzzle. Some people seem to enjoy negative situations more than others, and the question is how we can frame that tendency in terms of relationships between + and -. (I'm certain it is possible, because any debate consists of people asserting that their subjective viewpoint is in fact an objective one).

    Fortunately ILIs debate everything interesting to death, so we've got lots of opportunities to get it right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    Well maybe. Although when you consider how alpha Fe and delta Fi work – I think it's plausible that some types, at least on average, are more prone to everyday social friction than others. perhaps depending upon the –Fe and +Fi blocings. (maybe this last point is a bit too far off in -Ti land, but I find it interesting that -Fe and +Fi are each other's background functions.)

    i don't consider myself "prone to everyday social friction" btw. Some awkwardness, yes. But there is usually only friction in more opinionated situations. And typically I'm not opinionated unless it's 2+2 or black and white. (I fear the anonymity of the Internet has exposed myself and others to some things I would have better left unsaid.)

    I'm not uncertain of my knowledge, but I am uncertain of my ability to convince anyone of it, or more specifically the use in even trying. So I generally think everyone's better off if I apply it somehow (-- tangibly, where tangible application is contrasted with verbal "corrections" and such.)


    There's another point I had -- what I said about "passiveness". I may not have the energy of some, but I still consider myself about as active as most -- or at least I try to be. And it's disparaging when I'm not.

    Having a dual that does a bunch of high-activity things while typically I "warn" them from the sidelines – well that would add insult to injury, pour salt into the wounds, etc. etc. Yet that's largely how ILI-SEE duality works.

    And moreover it works chaotically – the EP temperament. I've said before I don't like chaotic people. To my knowledge, nothing else I've said has revealed otherwise. To relate this back to one of tcau's original points – I may value truthfulness, but I also value a sort of restraint in others – so that I don't have to constantly warn them about the consequences of their actions. (I'd rather be active myself.)


    I don't think these are very "interesting" points of mine though. Nor am I intent on "debating them to death". I've been pretty consistently averse to the ILI typing since it was first suggested for me. I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced of it -- but every point raised so far has done little for me to that end.

    If you choose me as a prototypical ILI, and if it skews your understanding of ILI's in the process -– I guess that's your prerogative. Frankly I think there are better things I could be doing for myself and for others around me than arguing over that.
    @imfd95: why do you feel unable to convince others of your knowledge? Do you feel it is without foundation, or that you are unable to convey the logic which validates the determination that something is true in a particular case?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    @imfd95: why do you feel unable to convince others of your knowledge? Do you feel it is without foundation, or that you are unable to convey the logic which validates the determination that something is true in a particular case?
    well... i have the same problem and, and for me it is (I think) because I would have to explain everything in my memory relative to the issue at hand in order to justify what it is I think or am saying. This can become a tedious task because many times the things which I am using in my memory are scattered apart / not, at first glance, very apparently relative to one another. So it may take like... a whole essay on how certain things are relative to one another, before even starting on explaining. At this point people stop listening; and it really takes alot of energy to do this anyway .. I remember one time i turned a philosophy paper into an intj professor I had.. he gave me a B, and his comments on the paper were: "you have four pages worth of premises and one paragraph worth of conclusion"

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedrat View Post
    well... i have the same problem and, and for me it is (I think) because I would have to explain everything in my memory relative to the issue at hand in order to justify what it is I think or am saying. This can become a tedious task because many times the things which I am using in my memory are scattered apart / not, at first glance, very apparently relative to one another. So it may take like... a whole essay on how certain things are relative to one another, before even starting on explaining. At this point people stop listening; and it really takes alot of energy to do this anyway .. I remember one time i turned a philosophy paper into an intj professor I had.. he gave me a B, and his comments on the paper were: "you have four pages worth of premises and one paragraph worth of conclusion"
    Double or single-spaced?

    Best to just rely on context to get your point across when the concept is complicated. Of course, there are those who will argue that you don't have valid premises for your beliefs because they do not understand context. I don't really care about those people, though, nor should they be allowed to grade college papers.

    I will say that your crosstype arguments are about as convoluted as Jung's; you can see pretty much anything you want in them, and never begin to actually get the idea. I don't think this is common to INTps, actually, because any way you slice it I can't make sense of what you're saying. I do get a general sense of what you say though without understanding the specifics. I've concluded that you have a better understanding of the comprehensiveness of the functions than most; the XXXx is after all the Fi aspect incarnate, the spectrum of chronic personality traits. I think your sense of holism would be useful for understanding other aspects, as well.

    (just for the record, I embraced that vague, mysteriously interconnected style myself for a time, but I was copying Jung in a sense when I did it -- his style, specifically. I was quite enamoured with him at the time. It's not my native writing style... but it was really all I could manage trying to make sense of something drawn from Jung's papers -- he had that same trait as yours of dual-seeking self-observation, and something vaguely presented must be processed vaguely...).

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    Well maybe. Although when you consider how alpha Fe and delta Fi work – I think it's plausible that some types, at least on average, are more prone to everyday social friction than others. perhaps depending upon the –Fe and +Fi blocings. (maybe this last point is a bit too far off in -Ti land, but I find it interesting that -Fe and +Fi are each other's background functions.)

    i don't consider myself "prone to everyday social friction" btw. Some awkwardness, yes. But there is usually only friction in more opinionated situations. And typically I'm not opinionated unless it's 2+2 or black and white. (I fear the anonymity of the Internet has exposed myself and others to some things I would have better left unsaid.)

    I'm not uncertain of my knowledge, but I am uncertain of my ability to convince anyone of it, or more specifically the use in even trying. So I generally think everyone's better off if I apply it somehow (-- tangibly, where tangible application is contrasted with verbal "corrections" and such.)


    There's another point I had -- what I said about "passiveness". I may not have the energy of some, but I still consider myself about as active as most -- or at least I try to be. And it's disparaging when I'm not.

    Having a dual that does a bunch of high-activity things while typically I "warn" them from the sidelines – well that would add insult to injury, pour salt into the wounds, etc. etc. Yet that's largely how ILI-SEE duality works.

    And moreover it works chaotically – the EP temperament. I've said before I don't like chaotic people. To my knowledge, nothing else I've said has revealed otherwise. To relate this back to one of tcau's original points – I may value truthfulness, but I also value a sort of restraint in others – so that I don't have to constantly warn them about the consequences of their actions. (I'd rather be active myself.)


    I don't think these are very "interesting" points of mine though. Nor am I intent on "debating them to death". I've been pretty consistently averse to the ILI typing since it was first suggested for me. I'm not saying I couldn't be convinced of it -- but every point raised so far has done little for me to that end.

    If you choose me as a prototypical ILI, and if it skews your understanding of ILI's in the process -– I guess that's your prerogative. Frankly I think there are better things I could be doing for myself and for others around me than arguing over that.
    I don't know if the second part was aimed at me or at tcaudlig - but anyway over time my opinion of your type (just an opinion, mind you, far from being certain) switched to ENTj (mixed subtype?)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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