This is something I've recently thought about. I realised that I don't really understand how it works when it's blocked with Se, such a harsh function by comparison.
How does it work?
This is something I've recently thought about. I realised that I don't really understand how it works when it's blocked with Se, such a harsh function by comparison.
How does it work?
strong + wise about people
maybe see Diana's posts in that "wow, this is crazy" thread about that Austrian incest guy
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
One of my neighbors is a SEE widow (her husband was probably SLI). Back in time, my mom used to ask her to take care of us sometimes when she was out. However, as time has passed, we've been distancing ourselves from that family. We've even had a few frictions in the past.
Recently, I decided to make an electric installation for my shop, which is in the back part of the house. It sounds simple, really: just to put tubing attached to the walls in the perimeter of the house, about 25 meters. However, there is a space of about 4 meters where I can't install the tubing without entering my neighbor's house. So I decided to ask her.
I already knew what to expect. She's Gamma, she values Fi. But since there is no Fi bond between us, she might as well treat us like strangers. And she did. When I requested her for permission, she complained that when her husband was sick, we never came to ask for him. And that we don't greet her in the streets. Etc.
I'm amazed because her answer couldn't be more accurate according to the predictions based on socionics.
[]
| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
By the way, if she's your neighbor, then I suppose that greeting her in the streets is the minimum requirement. If you don't, you're quite an asshole.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Well, it seems your neighbour would put herself out by babysitting you when you were younger, did things for you and your family. Then you haven't spoke to her for years because it seems to me she was no longer any use (no need for babysitting you) then all of a sudden when you want something, you expect her to put herself out again? hmm..are you suprised when the reaction you get is frosty? At least she explained what the problem was which is good for her imo.
This is an issue i'm dealing with in life as a bigger picture. People taking things and not giving back. Personally when someone has done something for me I always try to remember and pay my dues.
I think delta ST's that i've known have an inbuilt sense of fairness. At least they might not always be aware of the problem, but it's I would have thought the NF's that would make them aware; when the ST's are aware, they're usually quite accommodating imo.
Although I'm actually really suprised that you think her reaction is explained by socionics, when what flabbergasts me, is that you really didn't see it coming.
It's stuff like that which makes me wonder why the fuck I bother. Seems like the guys who try and play it fair always loose out.
So what I would like to ask, are delta NF's really that daft to think she'd help, then to see she didn't, and to say, "it's because she's an ESFp"? Not "because i've been an ass"?
What goes around comes around at least in this case. I would suggest that you put yourself out to help her, before asking for help out of the blue like you did. (Isn't this something ENFp and INFj know easily?)
Also curious, are you laying cable in her house? I presume the cable is external and therefore wall mounted: buy a pair of fucking ladders.
I'm sure deante will have something to say, but I wanted to say;yes. For instance: It seems to be a trend just now in recruitment processes to base a persons future performance and actions on their past performance and actions, with the thinking being that people simply duplicate themselves. I presume a wad of psychologists have been paid to come up with this.
It's probably true, but then, I thought the idea of gaining experience was to improve, and training people is done to improve their performance. Seems to me that people learn from their mistakes. But the moral of it all is: when a company talks about training and staff development, it's really bullshit, they just want someone to come in and be as predictable as robots, because there are some jobs still not able to be performed by machines. Haha, can't blame them though..it sounds like a lack of Ne though, ha, or maybe just good business sense.
Wish people would just cut through the crap though and be upfront. I really need to work for Alan Sugar.
Yar.Welcome back, Cy!![]()
Oh well. No offense but I see the reason why STs are so incompetent about dealing with personal issues. They often lack the ability to investigate the point of view of all sides involved; quickly jumping to (logical) conclusions as if a single source of information was universal.
First, and most important, this woman and my father are conflicting types (LII - SEE). She's projecting her dislike toward him on the entire family.
Second, my mom is EIE and it's she -and not us- the one for whom mercenary attitude toward people is usual business. She was the one who requested her to babysit us in the past and stopped talking to her when she was no longer useful. The thing here is that my mom, being Fe dominant, is quite skilled at making people to believe they are closer than they really are. We don't pretend to and never request this woman anything.
Third, are you nuts or what? This woman is completely off mixing personal stuff with our relationship as neighbors. Living in society -specially in a large city- requires a certain level of cooperation based on mutual necessity more than anything else.
You've learned nothing if you believe that STs teach NFs about "human quality". Self complacency, most likely.
[]
| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
If she is right that there was a time during which she was useful, but then nobody cared when she needed someone and you don't even greet her, her reaction is legitimate to me. I would feel the same way, except that I wouldn't tell you because I wouldn't want the conflict. The only thing that seems SEE about her reaction is that she actually told you. For the rest, if what she says is true, I can totally see where she is coming from.
And no offense to you, but this is not how it works for Fi types. You/your family made her feel used and now she feels that you have the audacity to ask for a favor. If you were an IEE, I would not have to explain this because it would have come to you naturally. You would have immediately understood where she is coming from and you would not have tried to find an explanation through personality theory because her reaction would have been crystal clear to you.Third, are you nuts or what? This woman is completely off mixing personal stuff with our relationship as neighbors. Living in society -specially in a large city- requires a certain level of cooperation based on mutual necessity more than anything else.
They were well can because sometimes ENFps get caught up in Ne confusion and need Te to assess things, especially when they are stressed. Cyclops assessed the situation correctly (based on the information you provided). You are the one who obviously does not understand that "Fi bonds" do not have to be mutual and that feelings of feeling used, neglected, or others happen detached from neighborly obligations.You've learned nothing if you believe that STs teach NFs about "human quality". Self complacency, most likely.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
@Kim:
The difference between you and me is that I have a LII handy to see the other side of the coin. Her complaints were unrelated to the problem at hand; thus invalid.
As an update, I installed the cable without her consent. She came out and we shouted to each other and she took some of the electrical tubing away. I then went to the police and accused her of robbery. They gave me the reason, but they appealed to my human sense and asked me not to take legal action against a 60 year old woman. So I didn't do anything against her.
Think of me as heartless, but you'll be wrong.
[]
| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.
INTp
ILE "Searcher"
Socionics: ENTp![]()
DCNH: Dominant![]()
--> perhaps Normalizing
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Enneagram: 7w6 "Enthusiast"
MBTI: ENTJ "Field Marshall" or ENTP "Inventor"
Astrological sign: Aquarius
To learn, read. To know, write. To master, teach.
I agree with what Kim's said.
You don't seem to value or even understand Fi, or for that Delta values, Mikemex.
. . . .
In regards to interaction with society and neighbours, this takes the form of people in a society not stealing, looting, murdering each other, it doesn't mean people have to keep bending over backwards to help you when you don't appreciate it. Some would say that interaction with your neighbours involves the courtesy of saying such things as hello and good morning, eh, I can't believe i'm typing something that's so obvious to me.
I think an LII father is irrelevant here. Maybe you want someone to listen to your problems over that and help your emotional knots. Could be you need an F type more than a T type as your dual?
Oh, and I would be on this womans side, should I live there, by the sounds of what you've described. Although she over-reacted with the cable, she could have sabotaged it when you weren't there if she wanted to be coy. That she did it for you to see would possibly suggest to me she's still hurt and that there's still an avenue for you to make amends with her. Oh, and at least the police talked some sense, for once, ha.
Having an Isfj sister (she's slightly more on the Se side though..) I think that the Se shapes the Fi in Gammas so the differences result from the Se/Ne difference (but you already knew that...)
Se as a secondary function means Ne as a PoLR so that might result in less ability to see people as a whole thus judging them more narrow mindedly. On the other hand, delta NF's might be more willing to forgive people because they see people on their many complexities, have compassion and strive to forgive human faults. The SF's will tend to judge more if someone is inappropriate or crosses the Fi boundaries but the NF will see it as an achievement if it manages to go beyond the typical stereotypes and judgments of people because it wishes to understand their mind.
Though I have to admit that the whole description I just gave is judgmental and stereotypical but this is what the question demands so you'll have to forgive me for that…. And I have to admit that Gamma SF's are generally very nice people. I guess I'm just biased because my sister sucks...
On the positive side, that same Se might drive those types to fight more for the Fi. Not that Delta NF's don't fight but Se as a function is known for it's strong will and endurance thus it will be easier for the Gamma SF's to fight for what they think is right.
Please can you elaborate more on this WRT the SEE's influence and manipulation techniques?
I think the idea that Fi is close-minded is closely related to the similar idea that Ti is close-minded. Essentially, these two functions are static and they're primarily concerned with an internal self-mastered worldview, which many could view as narrow-minded and unsympathetic to others. Basically, the Se creative - coupled with Ne PoLR (as Ne creatives have less of a tendency to act in the following way) - is saying "the world is x and it will not change from x because I say so".
Good point.
Gamma Fi looks like this:
+
+
I am reminded of gamma's quadra role of "cutting out" things of society that are obsolete, harmful, or bad, etc.
This might not be common socionics, but, if we look at the quadras as a series of development from alpha to beta to gamma to delta, I definitely think the gamma harshness and the "switch" from valuing Te/Fi that arises after the first two quadras makes sense. With Se>Si to cut people out, there is a rigorousness to gamma's Se+Fi blocking structure makes a lot of sense.
Gammas may have a sense of "it being up to them" to cut out the bad stuff form society, in a general way. Descriptions talk about how INTps have to cut out terrible ideas, even if they are against popular opinion (against Fe, for example).
Also, I think Joy's oft-quoted Rocky clip is fitting example for gamma Fi.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
I think you're spot on. Gammas are often in the role of being "reactionaries" or "conservative", which is a false interpretation of Gamma's motives. They do not block new ideas, or change, or even revolution, as such; only those they see as nonsensical or evil. And yes, it is "up to them" because it is the Betas who are promoting the ideas, the Alphas who probably thought of them in the first place, and the Deltas thinking that everything will be okay if everybody discusses the new ideas together.
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, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
Right, it's not at all about new vs. old or change vs. stagnation. Focusing on that stuff at all just misses the point (from a Gamma perspective).
ESFp-Fi sub
6w7 sx/so/sp
yeah i didn't remember that gamma is democratic. and i respect that you would go to bat for anybody that you care about. ESI's don't usually care about ILE's though??!! lol then again your ex is an ILE, and you step up for him so maybe i'm wrong.
@Loki: yeah i agree with what you are saying. i focused on the meg side of it you're focusing on the interviewer side of it. they both have responsibility.
but meg is so....stilted or something. i mean she's talking about this great great movie, In the Cut, right? if it were me in the interview i'd just totally take that guy on you know? i'm just saying she can't really handle him. but he's not drawing her out very well at all, either.
like i say, CONFLICT RELATION!!! lol
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
Given how Fi is blocked with Se, I would say that often the feelings might be more manifested in action rather than purely in words. (I think one of the ESI's descriptions mentions this tendency)
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
This sounds more like a dynamic (ie, Fe) view of it; Fi is static (as is Se by the way). I don't think Fi has anything to do with "mobilization".
Okay now I get better what you meant. However, I wouldn't say that even Se is about "change your actions" as such, which, again, seems to me more like a Fe thing. I's more about, uh, "putting you in your place" than "changing your actions".
If I understand what you're saying, you're essentially noticing that they're Fi and not Ti.
Okay you react better to Se+Ti than to Se+Fi.
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, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied
This one?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=1qSvLJlsWh8
from here?
(gone)
Last edited by inumbra; 07-30-2008 at 03:20 AM.
well there's definitely a repulsion between the interviewer and meg. but she seems overly defensive and unable to disarm him. interviewer seems like he's making innuendos, though, which could be seen as a challenge.
conflict relation seems likely here. they can't get anywhere really.
ILE
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
gamma Fi is also expressed differently between the rationals and the irrationals. w/ the irrationals it is more adaptive & in the moment.. if something brings it into conflict, this can be more easily negated & deemed irrelevent / forgotten. With ESI.. once they are in the Fi confliction mode it is kind of like a mental lockdown occurs.