What is Gamma introverted feeling Fi like?

[Joy]

You've asked me this before. No, I haven't. And he's an SEE isn't he? Can you think of any other examples of SEEs besides Achilles in Troy, who I believe relies too much on his passions etc. - he should've forgiven Hector and seen it from his point of view.

Just watch them already. At least the first one. You'll like them, and it will help your understanding of SEE's a lot. (Not that all SEE's are just like him, but I feel he's a really great example of an adult male sensory subtype.)

What do you think the point is?

There's two points, actually.

1.) Is it morally right and fair?

2.) Is it working? To determine this, we have to determine what we're trying to accomplish and then evaluate whether or not the way things are done is accomplishing our objective and efficiently and effectively as possible. It's important to view this from both the short and long term perspectives.

[Ezra]

Just watch them already. At least the first one. You'll like them, and it will help your understanding of SEE's a lot. (Not that all SEE's are just like him, but I feel he's a really great example of an adult male sensory subtype.)

I will try and watch them, but it's very difficult, for three reasons. a) They're never shown on TV, b) I have no money to rent them and c) I don't want to buy them, and am not persuaded to watch them, based on the fact that Raging Bull (one of my favourite films about an SLE 8w7 if you haven't seen it) was described as the "anti-Rocky".

1.) Is it morally right and fair?

Fi, basically.

2.) Is it working? To determine this, we have to determine what we're trying to accomplish and then evaluate whether or not the way things are done is accomplishing our objective and efficiently and effectively as possible. It's important to view this from both the short and long term perspectives.

Te, basically.

[Joy]

I will try and watch them, but it's very difficult, for three reasons. a) They're never shown on TV, b) I have no money to rent them and c) I don't want to buy them, and am not persuaded to watch them, based on the fact that Raging Bull (one of my favourite films about an SLE 8w7 if you haven't seen it) was described as the "anti-Rocky".

Just download them.

(And who cares about the other movie... you won't even know what they mean until you try watching Rocky. It's probably just a different kind of movie altogether.)

Fi, basically. Te, basically.

Yeah.

[Joy]

Actually, weren't you the one who got in trouble downloading stuff before? If so, never mind.

[Ezra]

Yes I was.

I will get round to watching them. Then I'll let you know.

[discojoe]

Yes I was.

I will get round to watching them. Then I'll let you know.

WATCH THEM NOW IDIOT

[Ezra]

WATCH THEM NOW IDIOT

[Joy]

Look, Gamma Fi presents itself differently in different people. The key is that they are confident in their understanding of their relationships with others and their own likes and dislikes (as well as others). Obviously they won't always be completely certain, but more so than others, since it's one of the aspects that stands out to them.

[Exodus]

lol @ the irony.

[FDG]

gamma fi looks like a bottle of xanax

[discojoe]

gamma fi looks like a bottle of xanax

BETTER THAN A BOTTLE OF PASTA

[mikemex]

One of my neighbors is a SEE widow (her husband was probably SLI). Back in time, my mom used to ask her to take care of us sometimes when she was out. However, as time has passed, we've been distancing ourselves from that family. We've even had a few frictions in the past.

Recently, I decided to make an electric installation for my shop, which is in the back part of the house. It sounds simple, really: just to put tubing attached to the walls in the perimeter of the house, about 25 meters. However, there is a space of about 4 meters where I can't install the tubing without entering my neighbor's house. So I decided to ask her.

I already knew what to expect. She's Gamma, she values Fi. But since there is no Fi bond between us, she might as well treat us like strangers. And she did. When I requested her for permission, she complained that when her husband was sick, we never came to ask for him. And that we don't greet her in the streets. Etc.

I'm amazed because her answer couldn't be more accurate according to the predictions based on socionics.

[calenwen]

How long would it have taken you to install the 4 meters from inside her house? Idk, I wouldn't have cared unless it was going to take all day or something, which I highly doubt. Maybe you should have brought cookies or something, lol. :/

[FDG]

So this thread is to complain that your SEE neighbor has been an asshole. Okay.

[mikemex]

I've not lost my ability to amaze myself over seemingly ordinary stuff. Socionics works and it is unsettling.

[Simon Ssmall]

I've not lost my ability to amaze myself over seemingly ordinary stuff. Socionics works and it is unsettling.

I guess you would have not thought about it if you wouldn't knew socionics?

[duality is cringe]

I don't believe socionics does "predict" human behavior. It's a theory based on observation of past and present behavior, but it does not attempt to predict what will happen in the future or how all people will behave/react in all situations. This ain't astrology.

[inumbra]

But since there is no Fi bond between us, she might as well treat us like strangers. And she did. When I requested her for permission, she complained that when her husband was sick, we never came to ask for him. And that we don't greet her in the streets. Etc.

But if you don't greet her in the streets, didn't visit when her husband was sick, you are a stranger. Some people you know in the past when you meet them again it feels like the connection between you that was there before, is gone.

[calenwen]

I don't believe socionics does "predict" human behavior. It's a theory based on observation of past and present behavior, but it does not attempt to predict what will happen in the future or how all people will behave/react in all situations. This ain't astrology.

Yeah, I definitely agree. Socionics is a tool you can use to try to "explain" past/present behavior - I don't believe it should be used to predict future behavior or that you should base assumptions or decisions off of it. It's really a rather flimsy theory when you think about it.

[FDG]

By the way, if she's your neighbor, then I suppose that greeting her in the streets is the minimum requirement. If you don't, you're quite an asshole.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

One of my neighbors is a SEE widow (her husband was probably SLI). Back in time, my mom used to ask her to take care of us sometimes when she was out. However, as time has passed, we've been distancing ourselves from that family. We've even had a few frictions in the past.

Recently, I decided to make an electric installation for my shop, which is in the back part of the house. It sounds simple, really: just to put tubing attached to the walls in the perimeter of the house, about 25 meters. However, there is a space of about 4 meters where I can't install the tubing without entering my neighbor's house. So I decided to ask her.

I already knew what to expect. She's Gamma, she values Fi. But since there is no Fi bond between us, she might as well treat us like strangers. And she did. When I requested her for permission, she complained that when her husband was sick, we never came to ask for him. And that we don't greet her in the streets. Etc.

I'm amazed because her answer couldn't be more accurate according to the predictions based on socionics.

Well, it seems your neighbour would put herself out by babysitting you when you were younger, did things for you and your family. Then you haven't spoke to her for years because it seems to me she was no longer any use (no need for babysitting you) then all of a sudden when you want something, you expect her to put herself out again? hmm..are you suprised when the reaction you get is frosty? At least she explained what the problem was which is good for her imo.

This is an issue i'm dealing with in life as a bigger picture. People taking things and not giving back. Personally when someone has done something for me I always try to remember and pay my dues.

I think delta ST's that i've known have an inbuilt sense of fairness. At least they might not always be aware of the problem, but it's I would have thought the NF's that would make them aware; when the ST's are aware, they're usually quite accommodating imo.

Although I'm actually really suprised that you think her reaction is explained by socionics, when what flabbergasts me, is that you really didn't see it coming.

It's stuff like that which makes me wonder why the fuck I bother. Seems like the guys who try and play it fair always loose out.

So what I would like to ask, are delta NF's really that daft to think she'd help, then to see she didn't, and to say, "it's because she's an ESFp"? Not "because i've been an ass"?

What goes around comes around at least in this case. I would suggest that you put yourself out to help her, before asking for help out of the blue like you did. (Isn't this something ENFp and INFj know easily?)

Also curious, are you laying cable in her house? I presume the cable is external and therefore wall mounted: buy a pair of fucking ladders.

[Sirena]

I don't believe socionics does "predict" human behavior. It's a theory based on observation of past and present behavior, but it does not attempt to predict what will happen in the future or how all people will behave/react in all situations. This ain't astrology.

Isn't past behavior one of the best predictors of future behavior?? No one is saying it's foolproof, but it is definitely a good indicator, not worthy of being disregarded.

............

Welcome back, Cy!

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Isn't past behavior one of the best predictors of future behavior?? No one is saying it's foolproof, but it is definitely a good indicator, not worthy of being disregarded.

I'm sure deante will have something to say, but I wanted to say;yes. For instance: It seems to be a trend just now in recruitment processes to base a persons future performance and actions on their past performance and actions, with the thinking being that people simply duplicate themselves. I presume a wad of psychologists have been paid to come up with this.

It's probably true, but then, I thought the idea of gaining experience was to improve, and training people is done to improve their performance. Seems to me that people learn from their mistakes. But the moral of it all is: when a company talks about training and staff development, it's really bullshit, they just want someone to come in and be as predictable as robots, because there are some jobs still not able to be performed by machines. Haha, can't blame them though..it sounds like a lack of Ne though, ha, or maybe just good business sense.

Wish people would just cut through the crap though and be upfront. I really need to work for Alan Sugar.

Welcome back, Cy!

Yar.

[Jarno]

I don't believe socionics does "predict" human behavior. It's a theory based on observation of past and present behavior, but it does not attempt to predict what will happen in the future or how all people will behave/react in all situations. This ain't astrology.

DeAnte, I have some questions regarding your post.

On what is your believe based?

How did you conclude that socionics does not attempt to predict?

Where have you read that astrology makes reliable predictions?

[1981slater]

I'm amazed because her answer couldn't be more accurate according to the predictions based on socionics.

IMO, SEEs use to bash you and kick your ass, this polite response is typical of ESIs.

[1981slater]

So this thread is to complain that your SEE neighbor has been an asshole. Okay.

In fact, we interrupt this thread. Go on, Jerry. Tell us your opinion on this:

[duality is cringe]

Yeah, I definitely agree. Socionics is a tool you can use to try to "explain" past/present behavior - I don't believe it should be used to predict future behavior or that you should base assumptions or decisions off of it. It's really a rather flimsy theory when you think about it.

Not quite what I was getting at. As an explaination for human behavior and psych motivation, I find socionics highly fascinating and rather reasonable. I don't find it "flimsy" at all, otherwise, I wouldn't be wasting away here.

Isn't past behavior one of the best predictors of future behavior??

No, past behavior is the best indicator of the truth and reality of present behavior. When using socionic tools like VI and observation of intertype relations to determine the status if what is - that is the proper application and true purpose of socionics IMO. Surprisingly reliable as well.

Different individuals using theory based on observation of past behavior to infer what will be in the future is your own subjective bullshit and cannot incorporate a number of potential unrelated factors that influence social behavior to varying degrees. Very open to different (inconsistent) interpretations and much less reliable.

For example, if an individual VIs like and Alpha, surrounds themselves with probable Alphas, and is married to an Alpha introvert, it is not at all unreasonable to suggest that said person is an Alpha themselves and likely an Alpha extrovert married to their "socionic" dual.

Example of a rather shitty application of socionics: "Person A and Person B hail from the same quadra. I just know that they'll love each other!"

Welcome back, Cy!

The user Cyclops is a major tool and you welcoming him back to this forum is not appreciated.

DeAnte, I have some questions regarding your post.

Fair enough. Fire away.

On what is your believe based?

My own observation and opinion? Not sure what else to tell you beyond that.

How did you conclude that socionics does not attempt to predict?

Socionics is about explaining the state of reality and human relations as they currently are, not predicting what indefinitely will be. How did you conclude that socionics does attempt to predict?

Where have you read that astrology makes reliable predictions?

That's not what I meant. Astrology predetermines and assumes to know your behavioral traits based simply on what month you were born. Socionics is based on observation and study of how different people process information, from there, it suggests motivation and probable intertype relation scenerios. I suppose you could call that a form of "prediction," but there's still monumental difference.

Also, attempting to reliably predict and accurately predicting are not one and the same.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

@deante: no amount of petty insults, uncalled for or otherwise towards me by you will have no effect on me posting here or otherwise. You're Se to me is actually pretty obvious and repulsive, and your explanation in your post makes little sense to me. It's probably Ti. Whatever type you are really is irrelevant anyway to me. You're not a nice person and I guess this is what ignore function is for. Goodbye.

It's a shame people can't even communicate reasonably on an internet, but you probably think you are being reasonable *shrug*.

[duality is cringe]

@deante: no amount of petty insults, uncalled for or otherwise towards me by you will have no effect on me posting here or otherwise.

Awe.

:You're Se to me is actually pretty obvious and repulsive,

The fact that you have no clear or accurate conception of is actually pretty obvious and repulsive.

...and your explanation in your post makes little sense to me.

That's because you value and you're frustrated/confused at my inability to simplify my point into some easily comprehensible overriding "code."

It's probably Ti.

. The clash represented bewteen myself, you, and Sirena, is over my +/-valuing approach vs your /-valuing approach.

Whatever type you are really is irrelevant anyway to me.

SLI-Te.

You're not a nice person..

No arguement there.

...and I guess this is what ignore function is for. Goodbye.

bye bye.

It's a shame people can't even communicate reasonably on an internet,

Agreed. I am quite ashamed of you as well.

..but you probably think you are being reasonable *shrug*.

I am. None of this changes the fact that you're SEI-Si to the core and don't understand socionics.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

How confident you are, to be so sure of my type when you have never met me, read a description of me nor spoke to me in a one-2-one.

How sure you are. And relentlessly vicious you seem. Aggression that you demonstrate is just not normal behaviour for an ISTp. If you are one, again, *shrug* and if I am ISFp, then i'd rather be that than act in the manner you do.

We seem to have such a poor understanding of each other that quasi-identical seems the most reasonable explanation for our interaction.

Compare yourself to forcemyhand and especially iannau. Perhaps they are also ISFp like you say I am because I don't think they ever act like you.

[duality is cringe]

How confident you are, to be so sure of my type when you have never met me, read a description of me nor spoke to me in a one-2-one.

How confident are you, to be so sure of my -ego/valuing when you have never met me, read a description of me nor spoke to me in a one-2-one?

As you can see, my Ti Demonstrative is much stronger than your Ti Mobilizing.

Once you have a coherent and accurate understanding of socionics, information metabolism becomes easier to spot and does not require one on one interaction.

How sure you are. And relentlessly vicious you seem. Aggression that you demonstrate is just not normal behaviour for an ISTp.

Intellectual arrogance is often a natural consequence of knowing what one is talking about. Something you have never experienced. It ain't type related either.

If you are one,

An SLI? I am. Not that I need you to qualify.

..again, *shrug* and if I am ISFp, then i'd rather be that than act in the manner you do.

w/e. Just accept it, already.

We seem to have such a poor understanding of each other that quasi-identical seems the most reasonable explanation for our interaction.

No it isn't. Re-read our interaction in this thread, then read up on Comparative. Fits perfectly.

And lol @ me being Beta ST.

Compare yourself to forcemyhand and especially iannau.

Information metabolism, - you know, that "Model A, socionics" stuff - is not instrinsically about over-generalized personality traits and behaviors (MBTI). People can behave differently in social interaction and still process information the same.

Perhaps they are also ISFp like you say I am

forcemyhand and iannau are without a doubt SLIs.

because I don't think they ever act like you.

Doesn't really mean shit.

[Simon Ssmall]

My advice, just like in most cases like this, settle this in an good ol' fashioned cockfight as as it is right now you will just share insults and nobody will come out right.

[Creepy-male]

I disagree.

Fwiw, I like DeAnte. I'm rooting for you!

Cyclops, you're a tool. You really are. DA was right.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

@SSmall, could you explain where I am being insulting? I'm not sure where you see the trading insults. I just see it as one sided. I'd be interested if you'd explain.

@deante, calling me a "massive tool" and all the other statements you've made in your last posts. Starting off out of the blue-even to try to control Sirena as to who she says hello to!

These are just blatant forceful and pushy statements by you. How is this not Se valueing and Si valueing on your part?

ISTp is about resisting in this context. You come across as all about pushing.

And I never said I was confident on what your type is. It is you who are making the supreme statements of confidence.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I disagree.

Fwiw, I like DeAnte. I'm rooting for you!

Cyclops, you're a tool. You really are. DA was right.

lol. Sorry but I don't really listen to opinions of someone I don't know and who attacks me for no apparent reason. Although.. You're probably upset that I told you I think you're a bit of a girl and a bit weird, in response to a direct question in a thread you created. Ask the question, get the answer.

What amazes me is that this whole thing is really just an attack on me personally, "I like deante" "Cyclops you're a tool", but OK, i'll give you the benefit of the doubt and ask you and listen to what you say, why am I a tool?

[duality is cringe]

DeAnte, I think that socionics does have predictive power, but its predictive power is limited strictly to socionic phenomenon.

Of course you can't necessarily predict whether two people will get along -- there are too many factors involved, many of them having nothing to do with socionics.

Exactly.

However, I think it's fair and reasonable to make predictions along the lines of, "I'm EII and she's SLE, so if some day we have problems in our relationship there's a good chance that these socionic factors will play a part."

In other words -- I think socionics can predict some of the how and why of whether things will go well, or go badly, even though it can't predict the if or when.

Great point Isha. I'll be sending you a friend request as well. Socionics does have some "predictive power," as I believe I acknowledged, but I believe it is also quite limited. Too limited to be frequently relied upon. Your examples were also somewhat vague, thus my entire point.

@Cyclops, the fact that you are a tool is quite evident for all to see. You have been sufficiently pwn'd in this thread and I believe my work here is done.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Well, you've tried to publically insult me and not actually backed it up with anything, possibly can't. The facts speak for themselves.

Trying to now make it into-it's "obvious to everyone" does not answer anything still. It's just you trying to enforce a personal attack by making it more true if "everyone else" sees it.

You provide nothing of interest in this 'discussion' from an actual factual point of view. My advice is for you to say "it's my opinion" instead of just running scared.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I have never had a truly fufilling relationship with someone outwith my quadra.

This wouldn't stop me dating someone outwith my quadra-and I have done. But it comes back to the same thing in the end.

Although, there is one type outwith my quadra which has been a good one for me: ESFp.

[calenwen]

Not quite what I was getting at. As an explanation for human behavior and psych motivation, I find socionics highly fascinating and rather reasonable. I don't find it "flimsy" at all, otherwise, I wouldn't be wasting away here.

Maybe "flimsy" was the wrong word - I was referring to the fact that nothing can be proven, even the experts among the field disagree on peoples' types, and you really can't expect intertype relations to be predictable because there are so many other factors to consider. Basically, you can't derive anything tangible or concrete from it.

[FDG]

It's always nice to see two ISTps arguing, if you have some popcorn and ice-cream around.