madonna is an excellent example of somebody who has developed her superid functions with age. she comes across much softer than she did when younger. she converted to judaism and studies the kabbalah extensively. her mid life crisis was that sex book....her activity partner, rosie o'donnell, EIE, helped her to see that for what it was and began to point her in a direction of self development.
i have this friend who is EIE. when we were young, i looked like the tough chick in pictures and she looked soft and emotional. now, i look softer and more emotional and open, and she looks more like the tough chick.
i'm tellin ya people: mid life crises propell personal change, as a consequence, weaker functions strengthen over time, and stronger functions become less pronounced.
those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often
I love how everyone here has concluded she's SLE. Newsflash people: SLEs do not often have far-off looks. Her gaze in most all of those pics is indirect, a clear sign of N.
Another point, she considered the problem of gender inequality an issue of vital interest. That seems +Ti to me.
I should not that SLEs don't do a lot of conquest. Lots of fighting, very little successful conquest. The SLE perseveres in the face of adversity, they do not succeed.
i see some posts about madonna in another thread.
she is offputting to some and she definitely seems to be very domineering and pushy, a little inconsistent. I don't see how she couldnt be an Se dom
Beyond Madonna's selfishness, slutiness and materialism there's ...
Even more selfishness, more slutiness and more materialism. (LOL)
Seeing Through Madonna.
To say Madonna is a narcissist is not all that accurate, as deep down narcissists don't like themselves. That is to be pitied and is respectable. Deep down, Madonna really is self-confident and can probably tank 15 mobs at once, that's what makes her so annoying and not likeable. You could try to beat her up and make her cry, but she's visited too many of those dark cultist 'workshop' meetings for you to get through to her.
So she's always the one that bites, and never gets bited.
This is the root core of her issue. Madonna is looking for somebody that's abusive enough to get through to her, but also tragic enough for her to be the one that saves them. Though she absorbs other people's hatred and jealousy just to make herself stronger.
Madonna's darkest fantasies is to find the loneliest, most naive, most empathetic, most tortured soul and inspire that soul, and then abuse that soul, and then inspire that soul. Abuse, inspire, abuse, inspire, abuse inspire. Over and over and over again. She has a 'I'm the best mommy' complex. To be inspired you have to know what abuse feels like. Madonna is in an intense competition with others to see who can inspire the most souls. And she's authentic in the sense that, who she portrays herself to be and who she really is isn't as different as it is in most people's cases, but like anybody else she stills wears a mask.
If you don't need inspiration, you are useless to her.
Madonna's True Self isn't the person who travels the world and is highly famous. Madonna's True Self is to find a person she can lock in a dungeon and torture and then save. She doesn't want people to get too sensitive about this, she forgives herself and doesn't think she's doing anything wrong because 50% of her does genuinely want to save them. And be the lone savior. Nobody can know but them. It ruins everything for her if somebody finds out or if somebody sees through her wanting to do this and if they can see through it, she will change her tactics and instead 'soften up more' in public and not be so 'hard-ass independent woman-ish.' She will make you like her so you don't tell the world that she wants to find somebody to lock up and be alone with.
Madonna has done so much intense meditation and spiritual training that going up to her is really tough. She is of course a Raid Boss. But 35 gay male shamans working together, could do it. Madonna inspires others so the true heroes in the world (and there's only about 25 of them at any given time) will ignore her and so she can be left to hunt for the shyest girl to empower. She's a lot like Pink.
ESTp 8w7. Compare to Kesha, an ESTp 7w6. Its amazing how much enneagram can alter the perception of another's socio-type.
She is my idol.
Madonna is 3w4 sx/so as fuck. Someone is enneanaive.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I honestly thought this thread was another BnD's rants about how Madonna is slutty and how Fefe Dobson is better than her.
Where'd you get all that info, BnD?
most likely Ti subtype
No sam. I think if you really got to know madonna, she's not as twisted as you think she is. I don't think she's interested in 'torturing, then saving'. If you're even into being 'tortured' she probably won't be interested in you.
She is wiseWhy I love LSEs:
and does not
meaning of no.
through her, and in her, is
"Yes, it will be done."
Originally Posted by Abbie
35 gay male shamans versus 1 madonna lmao, I'd love to see that.
That's the thing. I don't think what she wants is all that twisted.
She's afraid to love things cause they will leave her. If she locks them up they can't leave her.
I'm sorry if I sounded like I was pissed at her in my analysis.
I need to make a comic.35 gay male shamans versus 1 madonna lmao, I'd love to see that.
Yeah, SLE. This is the most obvious typing ever.
She has always kinda creeped me out, looks and acts just like my mother.
EIE tritype 5w4, 4w5, 9w1
As far as we can discern, the sole purpose of human existence is to kindle a light in the darkness of mere being.
Carl Jung, "Memories, Dreams, Reflections", 1962
I'm inclined to agree with the Ti-ESTp typing of her.
Madonna: Ti-ESTp (Normalizing subtype) [SLE-Fi] (ESTp-INFj)
"I made a vow that I would never need another person ever/Turned my heart into a cage/A victim of a kind of rage"
- from Life With My Sister Madonna by Christopher Ciccone (with Wendy Leigh); pp. 15-16 (PROLOGUE): Madonna exits the stage. After a few minutes, a performer in the blue satin Pierrot costume and sad-clown mask reappears. This time—although the audience won’t know it until she removes her mask—Madonna is playing the clown.
As children, we were rarely taken to the circus, but as adults, Madonna and I loved seeing Cirque du Soleil in Battery Park, Manhattan. We both loved the Cirque du Soleil because of the sexy, bizarre, and fresh way in which they approached the concept of the circus . . . . There is, however, something of an irony in my sister dressing as a clown, because she is the world’s worst joke teller. I cringe whenever she attempts to tell a joke, either in private or in public, because she always botches the punch line.
I understand that her basic inability to be truly funny stems from the childhood loss of our mother. For even in the midst of the upbeat Girlie Show, amid the worship of the crowd, the intoxication of the night, the sad clown eyes betray a profound truth about my sister. Like me, somewhere deep inside—because we lost our mother when we were so young—no matter how far Madonna climbs, how famous she becomes, how wealthy, and how loved, her soul will always be pervaded by a secret sadness. Just listen to some of the lyrics she has written during her twenty-five-year career, for such songs as “Oh Father” and “Live to Tell,” to name a few.
- pp. 31-32: When our father marries our nanny Joan instead, the Fortins are incensed and forever after refer to her as the Maid. I prefer to think of Joan as the Sergeant Major, because as soon as she marries our father, she sets about organizing his unruly children according to a timetable, rules, and regulations. Rather like a five-star general. Ironically, although Madonna won’t like the comparison, as she has grown older, the one person in our family whom she most resembles is Joan. Much as hearing this will drive her crazy, in recent years she has become more and more like Joan, insisting that everything has to be done her way, according to her timetable, and that life must be lived by her rules.
Whenever Madonna and I live together for any period of time, I am automatically subject to her stringent set of rules, which include banning me from smoking in the house, and her insistence on maintaining perfect tidiness. Sometimes, her decree that I stick to her rules leads to a battle of wills between us. The truth is that I sometimes feel the need to assert myself and rebel against the hold she has over me. Moreover, I am not fond of rules, and often tire of obeying the ones Madonna sets so stringently. I know that I’m being the little brother, kicking against my big sister’s rules and regulations, but I can’t help it.
- pp. 55-56: . . . Madonna has left Ann Arbor without graduating and moved to Manhattan. Later, she will claim of that first trip, “I came here with thirty-five dollars in my pocket. It was the bravest thing I’d ever done.”
She was, indeed, brave in not graduating, and in defying our father, who was horrified that the first of his children to get into college was now dropping out. I remember that even I thought that what she was doing was extreme.
But as for arriving in Manhattan with just $35 and ending up in Times Square because she didn’t have anywhere else to go—that’s pure mythology. First of all, she was a middle-class girl with plenty of contacts in Manhattan—other dancers, other instructors—and far from being this lost, friendless little waif who didn’t even have a crust of dry bread to eat, she had money in her pocket and a support system all in place.
She may have spent a night sleeping at the Music Building, but that was likely because she was hoping a producer or musician might come by and discover her. Mythology. The further she got into it, the more mythological the story of her first trip to Manhattan became. Shades of Anais Nin—the author who was also mistress of embellishing her own biography.
I know, though, that even with far more than $35 in her pocket, and a group of friends, those first few months after moving to the Big Apple couldn’t have been altogether easy for Madonna.
- p. 70: . . . Madonna and I start hanging out more. Unlike many of my friends, she never drinks late into the night. In fact, she doesn’t drink at all, except for the odd lemon drop—her favourite drink. And her relationship with Basquiat is short-lived because she loathes his drug habits and its attendant behaviors. Like me, Madonna abhors tardiness or unreliability. To this day, we are both punctual and endeavor always to keep our word.
- p. 105: These are some of her mythmaking phrases: “I was the oldest girl so I had a lot of adult responsibilities. I feel like all my adolescence was spent taking care of babies and changing diapers and babysitting. I have to say I resented it, because when all my friends were out playing, I felt like I had all these adult responsibilities. . . . I really saw myself as the quintessential Cinderella. You know, I have this stepmother and I have all this work to do and it’s awful and I never go out and I don’t have pretty dresses.”
- pp. 179-180: The title, Truth or Dare, is a grave misnomer, because anyone seeking the truth about the real person behind my sister’s artfully constructed facade won’t find it in this “documentary”, except in the Marine Stadium scene and in a second authentic Madonna moment, which comes when she is having breakfast with Sandra Bernhard. Dressed in a silk kimono, she is relaxed and natural. Sandra asks here about her childhood after our mother died, and Madonna tells her how—for five years after our mother’s death—she used to have nightmares that someone was strangling her, broke out in sweats, and fled to our father’s bed for comfort. Sandra asks how she slept in her father’s bed, and Madonna cracks, “Fine. I went right to sleep after he fucked me.” Then she laughs at her own “joke” and adds, “No, I’m just kidding.”
The scene perfectly illustrates Madonna in one of her more aberrational moments when—in her head—she is so above everything and everyone that she thinks she can say whatever she wants.
- pp. 187-188: I fight my urge to rip the camera out of the cameraman’s hands and smash it over Madonna’s head.
Then her performance—which in the completed movie unfolds with the sound track of the song “Promise to Try,” which she cowrote, playing over it, as well as a montage of Madonna on the tour—begins.
I lean against a nearby tree, white with rage, and observe my sister’s on-camera shenanigans.
For a while, she wanders around the cemetery, recreating our search for the grave. She places a bunch of flowers on our mother’s gravestone, kneels, and kisses it.
In a voice-over that she recorded afterward, but made sure not to let me know about, she recites, “I hadn’t been to the cemetery since I was a young girl. I used to go after she died. My mother’s death was a whole big mystery to me when I was a child; no one really explained it.
“What I remember most about my mother is that she was very kind and very gentle and very feminine. I mean, I don’t know, I guess she just looked like an angel to me, but I suppose everybody thinks their mother is an angel when they are five. I also know she was really religious.
“So I never really understood why she was taken away from us; it seemed so unfair. I never thought that she had done something wrong, so oftentimes I thought it was what I had done wrong.”
Then, in probably the worst moment of all for me, she muses, “I wonder what she looks like now? Just a bunch of dust.”
More theatrics ensue as she lies down next to our mother’s grave.
“I am going to get in right here, they are going to bury me side-ways,” she declares.
- pp. 197-198: For more than fifteen years, Ingrid will endure in Madonna’s life, as Ingrid doesn’t need Madonna for money, keeps her mouth shut, and adores her without question or limitations. It wouldn’t have surprised me at all if my sister and Ingrid were having intimate relations. But Madonna never confirms or denies it.
- p. 208: She sends me a letter in which she writes, “I don’t know how long I can live in this culturally bankrupt town [Los Angeles] . . .”
- p. 248: Big Sister is watching you.
Adapted from 1984 by George Orwell
- p. 256: Courtney Love is also there, but Madonna avoids talking to her because she thinks Courtney is crazy. Courtney and I have a moment’s conversation in which she says, “I see Madonna and me as Joan Crawford and Bette Davis, but I can’t work out who is who.”
I smile and shrug.
- p. 326: I . . . view the DVD: I’m Going to Tell You a Secret. The show opens with “Vogue,” distant and cold, which sets the note for the rest of the show. Throughout, she attempts to force-feed the audience. The show is confrontational, unsubtle, angry.
Last edited by HERO; 08-21-2012 at 06:13 AM.
Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
classic SLE--doesn't drink too much because she doesn't like that feeling of being out of control. also that joke about her father fucking her seems pretty Fi-polr. LOL She is so so beautiful in that color photo in the middle that agape posted. stunning.
beta, not a gamma, SLE...
She performed in Finland last Sunday. I was outside the arena and heard her. I heard her sing Papa don't preach and Express yourself. Now when I've "met" her I can type her correctly, LOL!
I guess Harmonizing makes more sense. The main reason I thought Normalizing is how she's described by her brother (etc.) -- kind of like a strong rational subtype: scheduling, organized, etc. I think Socionics tends to transcend these kind of MBTI stereotypes though. There are Se-ESTp's who were quite shy, quiet, and/or vulnerable (especially when younger or as children). So I guess that doesn't mean the person has an Introverted subtype, nor does an SLE-Ti who is (somewhat) organized, disciplined, etc. have to have a rational/judging subtype.
- One of the Madonna songs my Mom and I like most -- "Gone":
"Selling out is not my thing/Walk away/I won't be broken again/I'm not, I'm not what you think . . . . Letting go is not my thing/Walk away/Won't let it happen again/I'm not, I'm not very smart . . . . Turn to stone/Lose my faith/I'll be gone before it happens . . . ."
sx/so imo... way too prominent and viscerally compelling of a cultural icon for sx-last to work.
She succeeded in large part due to her sensuality--in film, picture, and music. That being said, in person (in interviews) there's almost this detached logical portion of her that's quick-witted, eloquent, and with enough body language to be convincing or shady. SLE for sure. What do you think of her subtype? It would be easy to say that she's obviously using Se base, but her methodical and analytical side can be a bit more pronounced in interviews. I'd think SLE-Ti could be possible, although her performance persona is SLE-Se and even SEE-like.
She is often cited as having a near genius-level IQ (not type related). I haven't found any sure sources of it, but she's said to hover above 135-140
SLE 3w4 sx/so
And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night
Originally Posted by Starfall7w6 2w3 8w9 - The Free Spirit
ILE-Ne THE VISIONARY FUTURIST
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
IEE-Ne 5w4 sp/sx