Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: LII's stance on obedience and rebellion

  1. #1
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,507
    Mentioned
    59 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default LII's stance on obedience and rebellion

    Someone fill me in.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  2. #2
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,407
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Someone fill me in.
    They vary from person to person. There is no grand LII stance on obedience and rebellion.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  3. #3
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,407
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by anamericancer View Post
    Then humor her. What about you?
    Be obedient and rebellious when appropriate to the circumstances of your particular person. I personally find this topic to be rather silly because it seems that everyone has an image of self-worth that they are trying to maintain through these ideas. When most of these discussions are happening it is like people are talking about completely different concepts, as everyone has a different idea about what is meant by obedience and rebellion and to what degree or scope.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  4. #4
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Depends. Some people are offense oriented: life's a struggle to them and they spend pretty much all of their time trying to "win" the struggle. Others, like me, are defense oriented and may or may not be open to counter-attack depending on their relative timidity. (I am not at all timid, so if I think you're on offense I immediately retaliate). I usually "retaliate" whenever I am faced with an opinion I observe as a departure from the mainstream used to injure me socially, like what happened with the ISTj and the test.

    As for INTjs in general, they are very sensitive about their +Se and see -Se as a very potent threat to it. This may have to do with -Se's presence in function 6, which has higher dimensionality than function 4, but I'm not really sure. In any case, INTjs see +Se as their own will, or the will of an individual, and -Se as the will of a larger collective. (the "object") An example would be a military draft: the -Se is the agreement of the nation to impress its citizens into the armed forces; the +Se at risk is the INTj's freedom and most likely, well-being. Whenever you, you can count, usually by appealing to a sense of inequity and unfairness in the group's consideration of the INTj. On the altar of this injustice a committee may be formed by breaking up the social situation into its component instincts and dissolving consensus (congealing the committee from the instinctually similar remains thereof), thus also threatening the existing -Se unit. The committee itself assembles over a perception of diverged paths in the midst of the larger conflict.

  5. #5
    Mariano Rajoy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,120
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Obedience and rebellion are behaviors that owe their origins to TiNe. There is an order to the universe. Gravity, mathematics, ontologies, grammar, Logos, etc. are all part of the cosmic order and cannot be rebelled against. Everything else is superfluous and needs be ignored/rebelled/etc.
    LII
    that is what i was getting at. if there is an inescapable appropriation that is required in the act of understanding, this brings into question the validity of socionics in describing what is real, and hence stubborn contradictions that continue to plague me.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    2,916
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Be obedient and rebellious when appropriate to the circumstances of your particular person. I personally find this topic to be rather silly because it seems that everyone has an image of self-worth that they are trying to maintain through these ideas. When most of these discussions are happening it is like people are talking about completely different concepts, as everyone has a different idea about what is meant by obedience and rebellion and to what degree or scope.
    ok, now i'm curious, what wouldn't you rebel against?
    how far is too far according to your values and roughly, what are they.

    *curious*
    INTp
    sx/sp

  7. #7
    misutii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,234
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    My LII friend is in the military and from what I can tell she only advocates rebellious ideas when the person above her in a hierarchical system (in this case the military) is blatantly incompetent. So it's not rebellion against the system per se but against people/power that threatens the system's integrity.
    INFp-Ni

  8. #8
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,111
    Mentioned
    186 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    INTjs hate authority and will usually rebel against most authoritative figures unless they actually find that figure to be completely competent.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

  9. #9
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    My LII friend is in the military and from what I can tell she only advocates rebellious ideas when the person above her in a hierarchical system (in this case the military) is blatantly incompetent. So it's not rebellion against the system per se but against people/power that threatens the system's integrity.
    Not just the system's integrity, but it's optimal execution.

    Another reason for INTj/LII rebellion: -Se background is the battery for -Ni background, which LIIs see as bleak, dreary; that's the whole point of +Ne, to bring light to a cold, ruthless chain of events. LII sees militarization/group mobilization and the darker side of history as invaribly intertwined. Standing up against the oppressive -Se, for INTj, also means to stand up against the -Ni it wrecks upon human potential. There is a large body of evidence supporting the contention that when war comes, good ideas fall by the wayside. In fact, experimental verification of the general theory of relativity was delayed by the outbreak of WWI for five years. The same period also gave us mustard gas research. That's pathological -Ne built upon -Ni.

  10. #10
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,407
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mea View Post
    ok, now i'm curious, what wouldn't you rebel against?
    how far is too far according to your values and roughly, what are they.

    *curious*
    Should we be in a constant state of rebellion? I cannot tell you how far is too far since there is no real method of being able to objectively measure the external pressures that would trigger rebellious behavior. But I find this dichotomy to be ridiculous. I do not see my behavior as something that conforms to either being obedient or rebelling, but more in terms of acting and reacting to my particular set of circumstances in life according to my principles. If I have no reason to be rebellious, then why should I be? If I have no reason to be obedient, then why should I be? Is rebellion worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Is obedience worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Risks versus benefits. Is the rebellious fight even worth my effort? Can rebellion not interfere with my goals in the short-term or long-term?
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  11. #11

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    TIM
    ILI
    Posts
    2,916
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Should we be in a constant state of rebellion? I cannot tell you how far is too far since there is no real method of being able to objectively measure the external pressures that would trigger rebellious behavior. But I find this dichotomy to be ridiculous. I do not see my behavior as something that conforms to either being obedient or rebelling, but more in terms of acting and reacting to my particular set of circumstances in life according to my principles. If I have no reason to be rebellious, then why should I be? If I have no reason to be obedient, then why should I be? Is rebellion worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Is obedience worth a potential cost of harm to either myself or others? Risks versus benefits. Is the rebellious fight even worth my effort? Can rebellion not interfere with my goals in the short-term or long-term?
    well, yes, i agree, i would say that too.
    But i'm more curious as to what you would rebel against?
    i mean, i do understand, even i wouldn't rebel for no good reason. i don't mean to ask do you relate better to obedience or rebelliousness, but i'm just curious as to what(you are pretty sure off) that you would rebel against because xxx (eg: your believes, w/e it is).
    i don't think anyone is in a constant state of rebellion or obedience. Not asking for an objective measure, just in your opinion. because i'm curious what you think.
    INTp
    sx/sp

  12. #12
    Logos's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    5,407
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Mea View Post
    well, yes, i agree, i would say that too.
    But i'm more curious as to what you would rebel against?
    i mean, i do understand, even i wouldn't rebel for no good reason. i don't mean to ask do you relate better to obedience or rebelliousness, but i'm just curious as to what(you are pretty sure off) that you would rebel against because xxx (eg: your believes, w/e it is).
    i don't think anyone is in a constant state of rebellion or obedience. Not asking for an objective measure, just in your opinion. because i'm curious what you think.
    - Superfluous bureaucracy: There is no reason for it to be in place, and things can run just as smoothly without it, so just disregard what is needless.
    - Incompetent or oppressive authority: Oftentimes the two can be one and the same. Rebellion is also warranted when authority figure exists merely as an authority but have no goals or objectives which they are trying to achieve or if these goals and objectives that they do have seem counterproductive to whatever group/organization/institution to which the authority is entrenched.
    - Prevailing opinions that go unquestioned: Those who hold the prevailing opinions of the majority should not go about unquestioned, nor should the voices of the minorities go about unheeded.
    - Being ordered to do something without explanation or personal consent: Who are you to order me to do anything? Have you ever thought that I would be willing to help if you just asked?

    Rebellion though is often not overt or confrontational, but more often than not, it is generally passive aggressive or subversive. It tries to avoid confrontation and simply ignores the authority to pursue their own ends.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
    Johari Box

  13. #13
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,966
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Logos: couldn't have said it better.

  14. #14
    misutii's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Ontario
    Posts
    1,234
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    - Superfluous bureaucracy: There is no reason for it to be in place, and things can run just as smoothly without it, so just disregard what is needless.
    - Incompetent or oppressive authority: Oftentimes the two can be one and the same. Rebellion is also warranted when authority figure exists merely as an authority but have no goals or objectives which they are trying to achieve or if these goals and objectives that they do have seem counterproductive to whatever group/organization/institution to which the authority is entrenched.
    - Prevailing opinions that go unquestioned: Those who hold the prevailing opinions of the majority should not go about unquestioned, nor should the voices of the minorities go about unheeded.
    - Being ordered to do something without explanation or personal consent: Who are you to order me to do anything? Have you ever thought that I would be willing to help if you just asked?

    Rebellion though is often not overt or confrontational, but more often than not, it is generally passive aggressive or subversive. It tries to avoid confrontation and simply ignores the authority to pursue their own ends.
    that's awesome, well worded, and I agree with all those statements!
    INFp-Ni

  15. #15
    Froody Blue Gem's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2019
    Location
    A Place within a Place in the Universe Where they will never suspect. *Cackles like a witch.*
    TIM
    EII H-Ne
    Posts
    121
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Rules are put in place for a reason, and without any sort of governing system things would be in chaos. It's also human nature to break rules that are set in place. If the authority figure has too much power, or the system of government, I am against this. The people should have power too, while the leader takes their needs into consideration and enacts just rules. People should definitely question the rules, if they weren't encouraged to or frowned upon when they do so, it's pretty much implied that it's not a democracy in my eyes.

    But the reason for going against the rules should be solid, and not just chaos and rebellion for the sake of rebellion. If there were a constant state of warfare and rebellion, this would have cons too but change doesn't come about if people just let things continue as they are. We need to make a change if something seems to resemble a corrupt organization of system that previous reared it's head in history, the change may be slow and gradual though. People don't always learn from their mistakes though.
    9w1-5w4-2w3 sp/so

    Exactly how serious, the American Express Company had gotten to know very rapidly, and increasingly strident and panic-stricken demands on of it's debt-collection department were only silenced by the unexpected demolition of the entire planet by Vogons, to make way for a new hyperspace bypass.


  16. #16
    Haikus thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,113
    Mentioned
    287 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitta View Post
    INTjs hate authority and will usually rebel against most authoritative figures unless they actually find that figure to be completely competent.
    This was somewhat true of me in my youth. I had a problem accepting "because I said so" as a reason. Now I tend to pick my battles; plus, as an adult you also have more freedom so you can avoid most authority figures, excluding the actual government and bosses, unless you're self-employed. Having been in certain positions of authority myself, I also understand that as an authority figure you need to do certain things to maintain the power structure or deal with real-world exigencies. Now I prefer to 1) avoid even mentioning the issue if it's minor, or 2) bring it up for discussion if necessary. If these two don't work and it's actually important I will consider leaving the power structure or "rebelling". But rebelling would be a last resort.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •