View Poll Results: Is one's type inherent or is it nurtured?

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  • People are born a type.

    13 68.42%
  • Functions are determined by an individual's upbringing and environment.

    6 31.58%
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Thread: Type: Inherent or Nurtured?

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  1. #1
    Ezra's Avatar
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    Default Type: Inherent or Nurtured?

    I might've posted something on this before, but this is now; different people and opinions. Plus, I'm sure I didn't do a poll.

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    Why isn't there a choice for 'some combination of both'? I'm sure it isn't exclusively due to environment/upbringing, but I also think its unlikely that environment/upbringing does not play any role

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    I have absolutely no evidence for this theory, but I bet it's actually almost entirely nurtured in a sense. But not in the sense that type is changeable practically. I guess I'm going to go all Locke tabula-rasa on your arse and guess that we all come into the world without functional preference but by sheer accident stumble across some function or another that we use successfully. And with that comes pleasure, so we start using that function more often than others, and hone it moreso than others. If that's the case, after a point it would be very inefficient to try to be another type, so we tend to focus on our strengths rather than weaknesses (when possible). So I might make a sucky SLE or whatever, but I could try to be one if I wanted to. The opportunity cost (I'm doing economics HW in another window) of being SLE would be not-being-whatever-type-I-am, where my true skills lie. If this were D&D, it would like focusing all of my stats on Intelligence as a Wizard and then going Barbarian. As I said though, that's purely speculation.

    Another thing I've thought about is how each type sort of has its own general philosophy, and perhaps that is how type is derived. I'm not sure if that's a byproduct or a cause, or something else, but hey, I'm just rambling haphazardly, so what does it matter?

    Edit: I'm not saying SLEs are Barbarians, the two examples were completely unrelated, but it is still kind of funny that it played out that way.
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    I really like imfd95's post

  5. #5
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    As a shorthand response, may not just be genetic, there's evidence to show personality/temperament develops in the womb. Usually as people get older they become more natural in their skin, gradually shaking off whatever their upbringing tried to make them, so upbringing seems to be limited in correlation. Ie does a leopard change it's spots.

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    I don't think it makes sense that our personalities are nurtured because if that were the case, how is it we all fit so neatly into 16 types? Why would we all happen to be these certain combinations of functions? Why wouldn't it be more of a potluck? Couldn't there be some of us running around who for example are equally proficient in Fe and Te - saying that we were exposed to circumstances that made it necessary for us to be strong in both? And if our personalities are indeed nurtured, then what it is the cut-off date when our personalities are considered 'formed'? Is there a cut-off date? And being that our experiences never fail to affect us in some way, at what point would they be said to start affecting our behaviour and not our innate personalities? Or maybe our personalites just continue to evolve the longer we live - being that our experiences will always have a profound effect on our lives - in which case there's no point in typing.
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  7. #7
    Creepy-Cyclops

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    Actually, I think type is a constant, but sub type (if it exists) would be influenced by environment.

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    Who knows? Maybe the types are all subjective, in the sense that we can't say that there's a definitive, objective, discrete distinction in functional preference. Like we can only say that something is more than , more than , more than , etc.

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    hmmm, i thought the smiley face would show that i was joking

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    Everything is learned. A lamp must learn its shape. Learning and being biological are synonyms. Everything is learned. How does one think if there is no data to think about? Something that is possible is that our DNA strands have intelligence. Over years and years of evolutions, our DNA strands have learned what to learn and how to learn it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    however even if you restrict the variables to what is hard-wired, because those hard-wired variables might not all be alligned - some people more than others could fall into a gray area. additionally i wonder whether most people (even unaware of socionics) try to specialize in their type or to be more well-rounded.
    I think we can be well-rounded even by focusing on our strongest functions, given that functions can be applied to a wide array of different activities. Sure, there will always be some blind spots but not excessively detrimental to making a person "well rounded"

    Anyway, my opinion is that temperament (EJ IJ IP EP) is inborn, wheras the functions used can be a byproduct of the environment.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    the functions may fit model A not because of how they "happen" in the brain necessarily. but because they are most effective that way in real life.

    say for example -- something in my brain makes me really favor Fi-base in myself. but that there's nothing inherent in there to make me Te-dual seeking. then i might come to adopt Te dual-seeking simply because given the way activities proceed in real life -- i am fated to do so if i am to proceed myself in real-life most effectively. if i am to find a niche where my base goes to the best use, pleasing the dual, accomplishing mutually-compatible goals, etc.
    Yeah, I see what you're getting at. But say that this Fi-base-favouring person grew up in an environment in which the use of Te was discouraged - well surely that would have to be a strong deterrent to Te dual-seeking.
    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    approximations don't have to be useful on every person for them to be useful on some persons. (say, those who have stabilized into a "niche" earlier.)
    On some persons - so do you think it's possible that some people may never 'stabilise' - e.g. a person who is constantly subjected to changing circumstances?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Not necessarily, but parents will do their best to reinforce behaviours they find desirable (or discourage those that they find undesirable). Circumstances like those of Expat (a Gamma in a purely Alpha family) suggest that people at least can't be "conditioned" into being a particular sociotype, even if they are consistently "punished" for basically being themselves.
    I agree. In my family irrational behaviour was strongly discouraged, and yet 3 out of 4 of us are irrational.
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    say for example -- something in my brain makes me really favor Fi-base in myself. but that there's nothing inherent in there to make me Te-dual seeking.
    That's a bit too much of a devil's advocate position. Or, rather: if you accept such positions, then socionics makes no sense. Otherwise (if socionics makes sense), Fi-base implies that a person is Te-dual-seeking as well as it implies Ti-role. There's no separation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    That's a bit too much of a devil's advocate position. Or, rather: if you accept such positions, then socionics makes no sense. Otherwise (if socionics makes sense), Fi-base implies that a person is Te-dual-seeking as well as it implies Ti-role. There's no separation.
    Well yeah I agree that socionics wouldn't make sense if such situations do/did exist. My point was (I think ) that if our personalities are shaped exclusively by our environments and experiences, then why the hard and fast rules? Why must Fi-base imply Te-dual seeking? But yeah - I am taking a devil's advocate postion.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    So, uh, how about you are born with instinctual characteristics regarding your perceptual capabilities/inclinations which are either fostered or punished by your surrounding environment? A perfect development keeping with your instinctual self is hardly possible, so the extent to which you are challenged creates psychological obstacles that are in turn dealt with varying levels of success (or, alternately, suppression into the unconscious). Thus we have people who grow to be who they always were, and others who lose themselves in the muddle of a world telling them who they should be or what they should want.

    So, uh, yeah. How bout that?
    I'm sceptical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    I have absolutely no evidence for this theory, but I bet it's actually almost entirely nurtured in a sense. But not in the sense that type is changeable practically. I guess I'm going to go all Locke tabula-rasa on your arse and guess that we all come into the world without functional preference but by sheer accident stumble across some function or another that we use successfully. And with that comes pleasure, so we start using that function more often than others, and hone it moreso than others. If that's the case, after a point it would be very inefficient to try to be another type, so we tend to focus on our strengths rather than weaknesses (when possible). So I might make a sucky SLE or whatever, but I could try to be one if I wanted to. The opportunity cost (I'm doing economics HW in another window) of being SLE would be not-being-whatever-type-I-am, where my true skills lie. If this were D&D, it would like focusing all of my stats on Intelligence as a Wizard and then going Barbarian. As I said though, that's purely speculation.

    Another thing I've thought about is how each type sort of has its own general philosophy, and perhaps that is how type is derived. I'm not sure if that's a byproduct or a cause, or something else, but hey, I'm just rambling haphazardly, so what does it matter?

    Edit: I'm not saying SLEs are Barbarians, the two examples were completely unrelated, but it is still kind of funny that it played out that way.
    As a fan of Locke, I like this theory. Parts of it at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by chopin View Post
    I don't think it makes sense that our personalities are nurtured because if that were the case, how is it we all fit so neatly into 16 types?
    Because Augusta decided so. Why is it any more unlikely that we should fit into sixteen types through being nurtured than it is unlikely that there are only sixteen styles of newborn human beings?

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    parents vary in that respect. and so do competiting influences like peers.



    Circumstances like those of Expat suggest that Expat can't be "conditioned" into being a particular sociotype.
    Sure, but personally I've seen other examples of the same phenomenon. For instance, there's a family I've known all my life:

    LSI father
    SEI mother
    SLI son
    ESI daughter (3 years younger)

    This combination was particularly negative for the ESI, with parents who couldn't provide Te and whose low focus on Ne made them see her as "chronic underachiever".

    Another one (I also know them very well):

    LIE father
    ESI mother
    EII son

    Where the disagreements are precisely on the EII's lack of interest in Se matters (ie giving low priority to making money).

    And some others.

    The point I'm making is that, according to my experience, there seem to be a lot of people who can't be conditioned into becoming like their parents.

    My personal impression is that types are either inborn or defined irreversibly at a very, very early stage in life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    parents vary in that respect. and so do competiting influences like peers.
    Yeah, I think its important to remember that immediate family/parents aren't the only influences in your environment

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    So, uh, how about you are born with instinctual characteristics regarding your perceptual capabilities/inclinations which are either fostered or punished by your surrounding environment? A perfect development keeping with your instinctual self is hardly possible, so the extent to which you are challenged creates psychological obstacles that are in turn dealt with varying levels of success (or, alternately, suppression into the unconscious). Thus we have people who grow to be who they always were, and others who lose themselves in the muddle of a world telling them who they should be or what they should want.

    So, uh, yeah. How bout that?
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    Inherited. Innate, in-born. You can't change who people are at their very core. Believe me, people have tried to change me and I've tried to change them. Doesn't work. I guess certain experiences will bring different sides out of you, and people are still complex but come on, a fish simply can't fly.

  20. #20
    Creepy-bg

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Inherited. Innate, in-born. You can't change who people are at their very core. Believe me, people have tried to change me and I've tried to change them. Doesn't work. I guess certain experiences will bring different sides out of you, and people are still complex but come on, a fish simply can't fly.
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    Haha. That's unnatural fish cruelty though. =)

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    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    Inherited. Innate, in-born. You can't change who people are at their very core. Believe me, people have tried to change me and I've tried to change them. Doesn't work. I guess certain experiences will bring different sides out of you, and people are still complex but come on, a fish simply can't fly.

    Sure there is something that is innate and perhaps can't be changed, but is that something the sole determinant of "type"?

    And I still don't understand why there is no inbetween option on this poll

  23. #23
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    not reading any of the thread:

    I have never seen anything that leads me to believe types are nurtured into being.
    I have seen, extensively, how people have had to adjust to fit in, or alter themselves to survive, basically. These alterations can be detrimental to the person's natural well being, and/or have various other side effects and consequences.

    I've seen SEIs try to be more this way or that way to appease their partner. But in the end the are themselves and never change. I've seen an ESE go from being sporadic and outgoing to more balanced and reserved, after finally settling down and finding a dual. Those are personal examples I've seen very clearly, I'm sure things like that happen all the time.

    But in all my seeings of personal experience, I have never seen anything that made me think someone had a major shift in psychological type (this includes, quadra, temperment, or functional ordering). And I caution that those who do should first be wary that they, themselves, were misinformed or misunderstood the person's type to begin with - that is to say, the error is their own viewpoint. This is something I have done a few times, but I realized it was my own misunderstanding, and, as I have said, it was never that someone had a change of type.

    Furthermore, I have not ever seen anything that supported a change of subtype, even.
    Last edited by UDP; 04-24-2008 at 11:21 PM. Reason: clarity
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  24. #24
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    I think that you are born with your type, but the subtype is determined by enviroment and such stuff.
    Beta extrovert from NF club.

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    IMO


    part environmental
    part inherent
    part mystery


    don't know about how much of each
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