Hoping to clarify Socionics

[Creepy-]

I just have a few questions, they may seem really obvious but please don't say so! I just want to get things "translated", so that I'm sure that I understand them (and if it turns out that I don't understand them.... I'll deal with that later )

1) Introverted and extroverted functions.

Are and really the same thing, but they manifest themselves differently because they are aimed at different places? i.e. is just an ethical judgement of external things, while is just an ethical judgement of internal things?

And..... I don't remember the rest! (note to self: write them down next time)

Stay tuned! I will be back

[Rocky]

*starts hurling s at Ishy*




I think what you said is a little simplified... you can say that one's just Introverted, and the other's Extraverted, but they still act in different ways. Like, Fi; Fi has a habit of taking other people's problems on it's shoudlers, is extra careful about about approaching people as to not disturb them, etc... Fe is more about sparking a reaction from people, projecting off attention, etc... which sounds like the opposite of Fi.

[Creepy-]

*starts hurling s at Ishy*

*ducks*

I think what you said is a little simplified... you can say that one's just Introverted, and the other's Extraverted, but they still act in different ways. Like, Fi; Fi has a habit of taking other people's problems on it's shoudlers, is extra careful about about approaching people as to not disturb them, etc... Fe is more about sparking a reaction from people, projecting off attention, etc... which sounds like the opposite of Fi.

I know it's oversimplified, but at least in the case of / I can see my oversimplified view still fitting....

Anyway, perhaps I should rephrase my question - is the different focus of / the reason that they are different (rather than the differences being arbitrary)?

[Rocky]

Anyway, perhaps I should rephrase my question - is the different focus of / the reason that they are different (rather than the differences being arbitrary)?

Yeah, I think so. Fe needs to draw emotions from others, so it is laughing, smilie, and even intrusive. Fi needs to feel moral inside, so they are more careful not to step over people's boundries, but sometimes can seem unemotional.

[Creepy-pokeball]

? your realization of Fi and Fe seem partially biased/selective and partially untrue. Also, Ne is the projective perception. Fe doesnt project. It interrelates. It judges. It commands of certain specifics. It takes others into account on a wide scale, etc, etc. Fe is not always smiling/laughing/extreme positive emotions. It runs the entire gambit. It would be fake to be happy when youre truely sad. It selects specific emotions if they feel the need for them to aid others or to express how the feel about something (and other things if theyre devious bastards). It does all those ethic-related things on the outer level of life.

[Tepa]

Fe sees/acts on the symbols of human relationships, emotions, norms. Fi sees the relationships, the connections, the values underneath the norms.

Easier for Te/Ti. Te sees facts. Ti sees the connections between the facts, the systems.

Ne sees possibilities, outcomes. Ni sees the connections, the steps toward the outcomes.

Harder for Se/Si... Se sees (what) actions (need to be taken?). Si sees the results and effects of those actions, in the past and in the future. Maybe, maybe not...

Xe sees the symbol, Xi sees the connecting points between the symbols.

Or perhaps this is just what your brain makes up when you're sick and need to sleep but can't.

[Rocky]

Or perhaps this is just what your brain makes up when you're sick and need to sleep but can't.

No, I think you were right on with what you said here:

Xe sees the symbol, Xi sees the connecting points between the symbols.

@Jadae: maybe I am a little biased against Fe types... but I don't think what I said about them was entirley untrue.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Yes, partial. I was worried about passing along selective information.

But I do encounter this a lot. What is with function theory forums and the dislike of ExFx's? I would have hoped that to learn about their functions that they would be welcomed indifferently. I mean, sure all these theories are highly anecdotal and subjective/extremely difficult to prove but I would imagine that having all present would be helpful.

Is it the territorialness of introversion? The net has been shown to be a rational process of globalization ( in socio texts, at least) which would seem congruent to Te (as in, Te is to rational as Fe would be to impersonal). This combined with the territorialness of introversion (I forgot where I read that but it seemed plausible) = eek! Fe!

Let me know if Im off on this or not... What do you think (or anyone else)?

[Rocky]

@Jadae: maybe the bais comes from Fe being my PoLR and Fi my hidden agenda, lol.


(as well as having some experience with ENFjs, including my Mom and Guidance Counsler. )

[Creepy-pokeball]

I'm not confident in that reasoning because it would only aid to explain partial populus included.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[maze]

Yes, partial. I was worried about passing along selective information.

But I do encounter this a lot. What is with function theory forums and the dislike of ExFx's? I would have hoped that to learn about their functions that they would be welcomed indifferently. I mean, sure all these theories are highly anecdotal and subjective/extremely difficult to prove but I would imagine that having all present would be helpful.

Is it the territorialness of introversion? The net has been shown to be a rational process of globalization ( in socio texts, at least) which would seem congruent to Te (as in, Te is to rational as Fe would be to impersonal). This combined with the territorialness of introversion (I forgot where I read that but it seemed plausible) = eek! Fe!

Let me know if Im off on this or not... What do you think (or anyone else)?

Yep, having all present seems beneficial to me. I'm getting somewhat tired of the mild function-bashing as it really doesn't help any of us understand any better. I want unbiased info. emphasis on UNbiased.

YES! We need more unbiased info! Where are those INTj's? Wait, was that a bias statement? Probably huh? Damn me.

Yeah, I think so. Fe needs to draw emotions from others, so it is laughing, smilie, and even intrusive. Fi needs to feel moral inside, so they are more careful not to step over people's boundries, but sometimes can seem unemotional.

@Jadae, I do agree with Rocky's explanation of Fe though. I see what he's saying about Fi "needs to feel moral inside." I find INFj's develop values that are GOLD, and it'll be a cold day in hell before they break them. My use of Fe doesn't create in me a "value system." However, Fe is different for you than it is for me. It's my creative function and it's your dominant function, so I can only imagine how we manifest Fe differently.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Ah but it does create a value system! The values, however, are different. The Fe values are other people and what they interrelate. That is why ENJ's can have major self-esteem issues if they do not learn to value themselves as well. But again, external versus internal values.

[Rocky]

Jadae, I think a lot of Extraverts have problems along those lines.

[maze]

Ah but it does create a value system! The values, however, are different. The Fe values are other people and what they interrelate.

Hmmm. I see what you mean. That makes sense. Duh.

[maze]

But still, Fe would manifest itself differently in you than in me. Because it's your dominant function and my creative function, No? Or is that just theory? Hmmm.

[Creepy-pokeball]

Uhm, I think so? Im not sure lol.

[maze]

Uhm, I think so? Im not sure lol.

I remember you telling me that Fe allows you to skip over people who are not authentic. It's "the cold side" of judgers, you said. I imagine that Fe being your dominant function, allows your value system to integrate info. "faster." As an example, I remember you tiping a man working at a gas station because you took into consideration the cold weather and you felt bad for the guy. *Nice value system.*

I wouldn't do that. It's ONE person. My value system isn't as directed to individual people. I have my eyes on the gas station. I want politicians to start introducing other means of energy into our infrastructure. Seeing a person working on a cold day, doesn't naturally touch me. Okay, I feel evil, but it's true. Ni has me considering the bigger picture too much to come down and feel empathy for an individual person.

I'm trying to figure how this translates into functions, because I've noticed ENFj's are super giving people. My ENFj friend used to make me soup when I was sick and she offered to pay for half of my wedding expenses. INFp...isn't as giving, to put it bluntly. We seek to see the society feeling good, and focus less on individuals. *These are just observations* I tend to think they are functionally related, but maybe they aren't. Anybody else experience what I'm talking about?? Or can put it in terms of functions?

[Creepy-pokeball]

Wow! Very clear. I cant argue with that.

[Creepy-]

This si totally not on topic anymore but here I go

@maizemedley: I think I understand you there. I'm not normally empathetic or even sympathetic unless I'm in that state of mind (the "I want to be helpful" mode). If I'm not in that state of mind I don't always understand other people's emotions (but I still notice them), I get too caught up in the "bigger picture" and I wonder why they're so reactive, knowing what I know (of course, they don't know - 'theory of mind' problems on my part, I guess).

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that my and don't often work very well as a team

[Tepa]

Or perhaps this is just what your brain makes up when you're sick and need to sleep but can't.

No, I think you were right on with what you said here:

Xe sees the symbol, Xi sees the connecting points between the symbols.

It somehow all just made much more sense when that thought occured to me.

[Rocky]

This si totally not on topic anymore but here I go

@maizemedley: I think I understand you there. I'm not normally empathetic or even sympathetic unless I'm in that state of mind (the "I want to be helpful" mode). If I'm not in that state of mind I don't always understand other people's emotions (but I still notice them), I get too caught up in the "bigger picture" and I wonder why they're so reactive, knowing what I know (of course, they don't know - 'theory of mind' problems on my part, I guess).

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that my and don't often work very well as a team

I think that's because you guys are perceivers, and Jadae is a judger.

[maze]

@maizemedley: I think I understand you there. I'm not normally empathetic or even sympathetic unless I'm in that state of mind (the "I want to be helpful" mode). If I'm not in that state of mind I don't always understand other people's emotions (but I still notice them),

yes!

I get too caught up in the "bigger picture" and I wonder why they're so reactive, knowing what I know (of course, they don't know - 'theory of mind' problems on my part, I guess).

Very nice. People who are reactive have always been a mystery to me. They don't have their eye on the big picture and are focused/tied to the details upon details of their lives. I don't have the advice they want to hear and anyways, it probably wouldn't work for them. They don't need my big picture, they need to have the opportunity to sort out their details. Me saying, "it's not a big deal," isn't going to do any one of us, any good.

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that my and don't often work very well as a team

What are you seeing in yourself? What do you mean by this?

[maze]

This si totally not on topic anymore but here I go

@maizemedley: I think I understand you there. I'm not normally empathetic or even sympathetic unless I'm in that state of mind (the "I want to be helpful" mode). If I'm not in that state of mind I don't always understand other people's emotions (but I still notice them), I get too caught up in the "bigger picture" and I wonder why they're so reactive, knowing what I know (of course, they don't know - 'theory of mind' problems on my part, I guess).

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that my and don't often work very well as a team

I think that's because you guys are perceivers, and Jadae is a judger.

Right, that was my point. The reason it took me three paragraphs to make that point, is because I was demonstrating that an *Fe description* doesn't communicate variance amongst type. Jadae and I don't use/rely on Fe in the same way. It looks different in the world when we use it.

[Creepy-]

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that my and don't often work very well as a team

What are you seeing in yourself? What do you mean by this?

I'm not very integrated. It's like I exist in blocks that function apart from each other.

[maze]

Hmmm, it just occurred to me that my and don't often work very well as a team

What are you seeing in yourself? What do you mean by this?

I'm not very integrated. It's like I exist in blocks that function apart from each other.

I've had this experience and know very well what you mean! Our identity seems to almost evade us. There is a feeling of not being whole/grounded. If this is what you mean, then YES, I know where you are coming from.

[mimisor]

Ah but it does create a value system! The values, however, are different. The Fe values are other people and what they interrelate. That is why ENJ's can have major self-esteem issues if they do not learn to value themselves as well. But again, external versus internal values.

Jadae, I'm not sure if I understand. Do you mean ENJs value themselves according with the feedback they receive from people? Or can we say your self-evaluation comes from the outside world instead from whitin?
So ENJs are not really aware of their value and need someone else to assure them of it?