Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: The Next Step in Socionics Understanding: Perspectives, Dynamics, and Subfunctions

  1. #1
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,858
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default The Next Step in Socionics Understanding: Perspectives, Dynamics, and Subfunctions

    It's not immediately clear what there is beyond the psychic domians and information/energy aspects and functions. (assuming there is anything at all). However, there do seem to be a lot of different ways we use the functions in conjunction with each other (their mutual dynamics); in particular, it seems we may actually have preferences for their use.

    The rules of entandromia (the self-regulation of psyche) imply two rules for interfunctional dynamics:
    - the dynamics of one function with another must be symmetrically mirrored by all other functions. (barring an actual relational deficiency as in the case of immanence).
    Ex: if Ti relates to Fe, then Te must relate to Fi; Ni to Se; and Si to Ne.
    - the relation of one function with another must be matched by the relatee to the relator.
    Ex: if Ti relates to Fe, then Fe relates also to Ti in essentially the same manner. If the base function relates to the suggestive function in a given way, then the suggestive function must also, on its turn, relate back to the base by a similar method. By this, the self-regulation of the psyche is maintained.

    I have deduced thus far the following functional dynamics:
    - Repression: each element seeks to repress (on its turn) its polar antithesis. '+' and '-' are ever at war, not unlike similar poles of an electromagnet. If you bring one positively charged magnet against another, the two will repel. If you force one positive charge to the place of another, then the other charge has been displaced. So it is with '+' and '-'. (+/- as used with IM elements are situational or relative polarities, which cannot be objectively defined as positive/negative).

    The point of repression is make the repressed as stunted of growth and uninformed as possible. This means that it is using as little of the mental energy available to the mind as possible, and that the repressor has an uneven share of this reservior.

    - Compensation: each element, on its turn, seeks to increase its awareness and capability by a given magnitude. The scale of this magnitude is proportional to the corresponding magnitude of its polar contrary. (its background element, which is of opposing attitude and opposite sign). When this increase is accomplished, the immediate contrary (opposite attitude of the same sign) must raise its own level in proportion to the same.

    Ex: if -Ti deduces a new logical discovery, then the question follows as to what facts can be deduced from it? The derival of these facts, which are discerned from the observation of events in time, is the act of -Te compensating for -Ti. Likewise, one can use facts to deduce further logical awareness. A possibility may well point to a new logic, but is this logic consistent with the facts available? If not, then what is the basis for logic, or even its relevance? Whenever one uses one function to validate another, compensation is at work.

    - The integral, or duality dynamic, is the degree to which an element creates conditions under which its dual of the same sign (its immediate dual) can increase its own content level. For example, a logical conclusion about the world may well be made, but will it be received as relevant to society? Conversely, does the mood of a population assist or frustrate the search for greater logic awareness? If the mood toward something is negative, then logic directs that one take care when approaching it -- there is considerable internal conflict over whether or not to even consider it. Such a mood may be judged as harmful to logical analysis. (consider the witchcraft hysteria of the Middle Ages) This mood represses the observation of clear logic and thus, may be judged as an oppressor of Ti processing. However it only oppresses -Ti; +Ti, as a strategic observer (the "military genius"), thrived during the period and was much sought after by leaders of the time because of the military advantage it gave to them.)

    - A countervailing dynamic exists between antithesi, which illuminates the differences between '+' and '-'. Every element is fixated
    first and foremost on its antithesis, and is alert to any bid by its antithesis to overtake it. However, '+' always means the subject and '-' always means the object, in the Jungian sense. '-' elements observe first the object as threatening the subject, facing the subject with the need to counter. '+' elements observe first the subject imposing on the object, then the retaliation of the object. Note that we are only speaking of identification of the subject and object, not disposition toward either as is implied by extroverted/introverted attitude.

    - The motive for compensation is supression. If left unchecked, the background will outpace and, theoretically, overwhelm the foreground by creating enough foundation for its antithesis to present a "devil's advocate" argument for its own supremacy. Whether or not this can actually happen depends on the stability of the mind which experiences it; in cases of a total overcoming by the antithesis, the person may experience blackout as a means of maintaining ego-integrity in the face of overtaken mentality. (although I would argue that the case of Darth Vader turning to the Dark Side in SW, and similarly, German soldiers who participated in the Holocaust despite being personally disgusted by it, are examples of "fallen" mentality as the chosen path of the ego.) To preclude antithesis overtake, the competence of the foreground must be competitive with the competence of the background. (it is not enough to simply acknowledge what you observe; you must also add something substantial, to your own understanding. Problems must have solutions).

    [more later on these]

    In addition to these, there are also the transcendent and immanent foregroud/background switches. Other dynamics are more subtle. For example, the rescendency (unhealthy) dynamic chains a given element's intentions to the benefit of either its immediate contrary or its antithesis. (more research is needed on this, however intuition observes that the immediate contrary type is given to various forms of hysteria (commonly dubbed "chronic personality disorders" by mainstream psychologists), while the antithetical type is driven toward the total destruction of itself and everything around it). ***EDIT: "hysteric" recendency is effected by a reverse suppression dynamic, which exhalts the background over the foreground. Instead of competing against the background member of a given function, rescendent functions seek to raise the competence of the background at the expense of the foreground. Thus there is a constant tussle between "good" and "evil" in the psyche: the rescendent are always attempting to suppress what they see as a violent social imposition on the subconsicous, usually by committing acts the majority find disturbing, even violating. The destroyer manifest of this type seeks not merely to suppress, however, but to undermine and corrupt: the competence of the background is exhalted at the expense of the foreground.

    [more coming]

    There are varying degrees to which we may be aware of these dynamics in our own personalities. The more awareness of your own dynamics that you have, the better you know yourself. This gives you an advantage over those who are less self-aware in a given situation, leading to a sort of de facto heiarchial system due to the capacity for personal will which stems from self-awareness. While a hiearchy system does indeed exist, the limited mental output of the brain from moment to moment ensures that all healthily functioning minds, and that self-awareness may or may not be relevant -- or even desirable -- to the task. (in particular, more self-aware types tend to find rote routine work, such as working at a factory assembly line, less tolerable than do the less aware).

    [still more coming]

    Subfunctions are aspects of the mind which themself aspects of information and observable by means of the functions. For example, memory consists of aspects for each of the functions: the Ni order in which events take place; the Si imagery of the scene; the Fe psychology and experience of the scene; the Fi emotions felt during it; the Se environment of it; the Ti logic surrounding it; the Te activity of it; and the Ne happenings of it. (ordered by Ni) If you look at the emotions of the mind, there are: lust, greed, desire, happiness, contentment, anger... all of which are either Fe or Fi. Fe anger can reduce Fi desire for someone (or suppress it, anyway); public disgust with a company can reduce demand for its product. Once the interfuctional dynamics have been charted, the long, probably endless task of considering all the different ways the aspects interact with each other, using the function dynamics as a guide, will remain. This is the true legacy of socionics to mankind.

    However, let use turn our attention now to those aspects of reality which do not neatly fit into one element or another. Yes, just as there are processing dynamics between the functions, so are there aspect dynamics which arise from their interaction. Fact may be one of these, because if Te is work and Fi is enduring emotion (motive), then Te looking at Fi says, "Whenever X work happens, Y is observed. Thus Y is a fact of X." As an example, consider the force of gravity as experienced on earth: when an object falls (the work) it always accelerates at 9.8 meters/sec. The acceleration rate is constant and thus, a fact of gravitation on earth. This may be why strong Te types prize fact.


    EDIT 4/28/2008: added details regarding constellation
    EDIT 4/19/2008: added rescendent/unhealthy suppresion passage
    EDIT 4/20/2008: added subfuction, aspect dynamics passage
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 04-28-2008 at 04:54 AM.

  2. #2
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,858
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Updated.

  3. #3
    Banned
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    TIM
    TiNe
    Posts
    7,858
    Mentioned
    11 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    (10,000 char limit....)

    Notes on constellation and transcendence:
    The transcendence dynamic operates by allowing a given IM element to observe its own foundation in the domain of its immediate contrary. By such means the relevance of observation may be verified by the immediate contrary as a third party. Activation of the trancendent function is compensated for by the constellation of all non-transcendence-capable immediate contrary pairs against the non-transcended functions' background elements. In the case of LII, transcended -Ti/-Te is matched by +Ni coming to +Ne's defense against -Ni; -Fe to -Fi against +Fe; +Si to +Se against -Se; etc.

  4. #4
    The Morning Star EUDAEMONIUM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    gone
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,131
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    bump
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

  5. #5
    The Darling Duck~ MissDucki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    In a dark room somewhere
    Posts
    1,600
    Mentioned
    224 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Honestly, I would like socionics to become as mainstream as MBTI. I that would be the next step to getting a wider audience and having more people discuss the theory to see where it may go.

  6. #6
    The Darling Duck~ MissDucki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    In a dark room somewhere
    Posts
    1,600
    Mentioned
    224 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Can someone contact a famous tiktoker
    Hold up, it can’t be ANY famous tik toker. I don’t want some snotty teen tik toker ruining my socionics! Then claiming they are the most rare and popular type….but a good famous one can work!

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    743
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    Hold up, it can’t be ANY famous tik toker. I don’t want some snotty teen tik toker ruining my socionics! Then claiming they are the most rare and popular type….but a good famous one can work!
    Become the tik toker you wish to see embrace socionics.

  8. #8
    The Darling Duck~ MissDucki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    In a dark room somewhere
    Posts
    1,600
    Mentioned
    224 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mew View Post
    Become the tik toker you wish to see embrace socionics.
    Lol I don’t think anyone would watch me talk about socionics. While I am fine outing myself as a personality nerd, I don’t know about fame!

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Feb 2021
    Posts
    743
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    Lol I don’t think anyone would watch me talk about socionics. While I am fine outing myself as a personality nerd, I don’t know about fame!
    You have to do the silly dances while talking about it, pretty nerd girls get views.

  10. #10
    The Darling Duck~ MissDucki's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2021
    Location
    In a dark room somewhere
    Posts
    1,600
    Mentioned
    224 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mew View Post
    You have to do the silly dances while talking about it, pretty nerd girls get views.

    Hmmm…maybe

  11. #11
    The Morning Star EUDAEMONIUM's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    gone
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,131
    Mentioned
    157 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I like what is being said by the OP in this thread, but stuff like what he is posting is why socionics isn't popular. It's just too complicated and overwhelming for the general public.
    The Barnum or Forer effect is the tendency for people to judge that general, universally valid statements about personality are actually specific descriptions of their own personalities. A "universally valid" statement is one that is true of everyone—or, more likely, nearly everyone. It is not known why people tend to make such misjudgments, but the effect has been experimentally reproduced.

    The psychologist Paul Meehl named this fallacy "the P.T. Barnum effect" because Barnum built his circus and dime museum on the principle of having something for everyone. It is also called "the Forer effect" after its discoverer, the psychologist Bertram R. Forer, who modestly dubbed it "the fallacy of personal validation".

  12. #12
    End's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    TIM
    ILI-Ni sp/sx
    Posts
    1,678
    Mentioned
    276 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by MissDucki View Post
    Honestly, I would like socionics to become as mainstream as MBTI. I that would be the next step to getting a wider audience and having more people discuss the theory to see where it may go.
    Yeah, that's exactly what we ought hope that never happens. The instant something like this goes "mainstream" is the instant it all goes to shit.

    The "normies" tend to ruin everything. Don't forget that harsh fact. The finding of the "broader audience" often leads to perdition/extinction...

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    1,414
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Hmm I think it could actually catch on..with a bit of publicity. I haven’t told everyone I know about it yet but I think quite a few people would be interested..sometimes I imagine it suddenly becoming really popular and the world changing over night! It’s the future of psychology; it will help so many people with mental health problems. Wish it came a bit sooner.

  14. #14
    Number 9 large's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Baking bread
    TIM
    ESTp 7w8 Aries Sp/Sx
    Posts
    4,396
    Mentioned
    244 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    Hmm I think it could actually catch on..with a bit of publicity. I haven’t told everyone I know about it yet but I think quite a few people would be interested..sometimes I imagine it suddenly becoming really popular and the world changing over night! It’s the future of psychology; it will help so many people with mental health problems. Wish it came a bit sooner.
    what ive noticed is that it really needs some deep underlying personal motivation to get into this shit. it takes years to understand these kinds of theories.
    ~ ESTP ~ SLE ~ 7w8 ~ Sp/Sx ~ Fire ~ Aries ~ Beta ~ Gryffindor ~ Summer ~ SLUEN ~

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Mar 2020
    TIM
    IEI-Ni H946
    Posts
    1,414
    Mentioned
    103 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Number 9 large Maybe you're right..so far people seem to be ok listening to me talk about it (ish) but haven't read into it themselves. I suppose they're a bit more 'normal' than me and are getting by ok without learning about psychology. However, I could picture them getting into it later in life. These are SEE and IEE people and they might benefit from it at some point I casually brought it up with my SEI friend and at first she seemed mad at for mentioning the words 'personality type' but then I told her it could help her relationship and she seemed more interested.

    I'm glad to hear you say that as it feels like something I have to take my time with learning. One, I don't want it to take over my life. Two, it's like learning to become a psychotherapist and it's pretty heavy stuff learning to analyse your own past issues as well as learning to understand other people. Having learnt the basics I'm happy to take it a bit slower. Another reason I find it so appealing is that it's mentally stimulating in a way that my job isn't. It seems like it can provide a lot of the mental sustenance I once dreamed of having from a career, but also it's fun so you can manage to fit it in around work/ commitments.

    I suppose it does require you to look quite deeply into your own personality and some people don't want to do that.
    Last edited by Bethany; 09-06-2021 at 12:10 PM.

  16. #16
    Seed my wickedness Sanguine Miasma's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Spontaneous Human Combustion
    TIM
    EIE-C-Ni ™
    Posts
    7,563
    Mentioned
    321 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Things to figure out:
    Is the emotional pressure from Fe constant under the same amiable atmosphere?
    Does Ne penetrate through the infinite potential barrier?
    Does the pressure ever become too crushing inside a deep Ni rabbit hole?
    Can you Te penny pinch to an atomic level?
    Can you disturb relational Fi compass by using a magnetic field.
    Does Si sensing actually ever make a sense?
    If everything is relative is Se actually unreal?

    Thanks to Gödel, Ti is already pretty clear.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type
    Life is a joke but do you have a life?

    NO Private messages, please. Use Discord instead.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •