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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Default another Fe and Fi thread

    from this post:
    I notice that I actually DON'T offer as readily as ego types do. The way they impose themselves on other peoples' emotions is just irritating. I'm not happy, so don't try and make me happy or even cheer me up. I would rather just talk about it maybe, not smooth it over with fake happiness. I don't like fakeness, but who does?!

    My parents constantly tell me to be smile more and be more friendly because apparently I am not whenever I meet their friends, etc. I abhor it when they tell me to do that because I don't sacrifice my inner feelings to create an external mood for other people just because "it's the right thing to do" in a social situation. I think that is the clearest example of how I value - although I am very bubbly to people I like and whatnot. I am actually heavily against "faking" any kind of emotion to get by... if I feel like shit, I feel like shit and you're going to know about it because I'm not going to hide it just for the sake of keeping you happy.
    this sounds very Fi > Fe, obviously.
    does it?

    discuss.

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    see I don't know that it does... It's not that I really understand the Fi/Fe difference though, because I don't, and I even have on and off doubts about which one I am... but that post seems to be saying she doesn't like "fakeness" or "fake emotional expression" or just emoting for the sake of emoting... And my question is: who does? Does anyone appreciate displays of fake-ness? I also hate if people tell me to smile or try to impose a state on me about how I'm supposed to be feeling according to them... I think that's very human... who would want that sort of thing imposed upon them? Meh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I don't understand why people associate Fe with "fake happiness". Of course, it has its moments, but so does every other freaking function ever described. lol Fe isn't about force feeding people happiness, and it's not about sacrificing your inner mood for the atmosphere, either. Fe stems from a genuine feeling. By the way, whoever said that genuine feeling had to be good? Or bad? Or happy? Or sad? It could be anything, it could be everything. It's a feeling. There are different types of feelings.

    you're missing the point completely.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I don't understand why people associate Fe with "fake happiness". Of course, it has its moments, but so does every other freaking function ever described. lol Fe isn't about force feeding people happiness, and it's not about sacrificing your inner mood for the atmosphere, either. Fe stems from a genuine feeling. By the way, whoever said that genuine feeling had to be good? Or bad? Or happy? Or sad? It could be anything, it could be everything. It's a feeling. There are different types of feelings.
    I think Fe only appears fake to Fi valuing types.
    I believe why it does, is because Fe dominants care more about the emotional atmosphere of the group, so perhaps individual emotions may be sacrificed in order to preserve a certain group atmosphere.
    of course, correct me if i'm wrong.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    does it?
    it probably does. but it's also IP temperament, and as someone with strong Fi you might have no problems identifying with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    who would want that sort of thing imposed upon them? Meh.
    IXTjs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winterpark
    IXTjs?
    So if an IXTj's having a really crappy day and they're walking down the street and they really want to be left alone... and some random stranger they pass draws their attention, with a fake smile plastered to his face, and says "Smiiiilllllllle. " ... to which the IXTj responds with a grimace... and then the stranger says "You're not smiiiilllllling! " would they appreciate it?

    Actually that's a good point though... it would be interesting to hear IXTj thoughts on this whole fakeness and Fe thing.
    Last edited by inumbra; 04-05-2008 at 03:55 AM. Reason: adding smilies

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    So if an IXTj's having a really crappy day and they're walking down the street and they really want to be left alone... and some random stranger they pass draws their attention, with a fake smile plastered to his face, and says "Smiiiilllllllle. " ... to which the IXTj responds with a grimace... and then the stranger says "You're not smiiiilllllling! " would they appreciate it?

    Actually that's a good point though... it would be interesting to hear IXTj thoughts on this whole fakeness and Fe thing.
    I suppose I would, and I probably wouldn't be able to tell whether or not the smile is fake, seeing as how i'd be preoccupied with thinking about whatever happened to make my day crappy. But i've been told I have a naturally overly serious/angry expression on my face anyway, so I get random smiles all the time, most of which make me laugh.

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    This is interesting! Perhaps I need to revise my perspective. :-)

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    I would say that Fe as it is, is not a fake display of emotions. From my experience with my mother, the fakeness is solely perceived and it comes solely when they try to impose themselves some sort of Ti structure. Like on how to deal with other people, things like common courtesy and so on, what is then seen as fake politeness. Basically what people are really seeing is crappy Ti, you need to display more positive emotions because that displays warmth and that causes people to feel accepted and better, you need to have more friends so that when you feel down you can go to them and they can make you feel better and so on. All in all their intentions are good, but they feel the need to have a Ti structure so they advise other people to do the same, to govern themselves by Ti rules, say hello to the neighbors, smile for the camera, be polite to your elders and so on. I'd also say that this is the part that is really bothering scarlettlux, the fact that these displays of Fe are a result of valuing Ti and the same valuing of Ti is expected of her.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    That makes a lot of sense.
    Actually that was something nifweed brought up when explaining my interaction with my mother to me, in that my mother is all like hey, let's value Ti and I am all like fuck off with that shit.

    I've got two ESFjs in my life right now. One is my brother; the other is kind of a class mate from uni. My brother is fantastic in that he never tries to apply "crappy Ti rules". We just have so much fun together. The class mate, on the other hand, occassionally has his boughts of "cheer up, you should look happy". I don't like it when he's in this mode of applying "crappy Ti". It's a real fun atmosphere killer, actually. When he does it, I just give him intense Ti back (death stare city).
    I think this would fall under expat's hypothesis that people look pathetic when they over focus on their super ID.

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    As I understand it, + means subject first, then object; - means object first, then subject.

    So +Fi says, "I want X (subject), but I'm not getting X (object) and because of that I'm in a crappy mood." -- am I right?
    -Fi says, "I gave you X which you wanted, so now you owe me Y which I want. You're not giving me Y, so I feel cheated."

    ...Nevermind... we need a new forum for model-B discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    from this post:
    does it?

    discuss.
    here's what i find Fi about it, and what i find of little importance:

    I notice that I actually DON'T offer as readily as ego types do. The way they impose themselves on other peoples' emotions is just irritating. I'm not happy, so don't try and make me happy or even cheer me up. I would rather just talk about it maybe, not smooth it over with fake happiness. I don't like fakeness, but who does?!
    to large measure this paragraph means nothing to me, because it basically takes a predefined (and perhaps not entirely accurate) vision of Fe and states that it does not apply. "not liking fakeness" is not something i'm attributing solely to Fi, nor is disliking cheering people up.

    My parents constantly tell me to be smile more and be more friendly because apparently I am not whenever I meet their friends, etc. I abhor it when they tell me to do that because I don't sacrifice my inner feelings to create an external mood for other people just because "it's the right thing to do" in a social situation.
    this i think is very Fi > Fe; i don't think it's universally applicable to all Fi types, but i do think that Fe types (particularly Fe dominant types) would give a greater focus on preserving the overall emotional atmosphere.

    I think that is the clearest example of how I value - although I am very bubbly to people I like and whatnot.
    this also seems typical of creative Fi, especially in SEEs.

    I am actually heavily against "faking" any kind of emotion to get by... if I feel like shit, I feel like shit and you're going to know about it because I'm not going to hide it just for the sake of keeping you happy.
    i think this may vary among Fe types; i could see more easily where an IEI or EIE would be more easily associated with freely demonstrating negative emotions than an ESE, for example. nonetheless, i think it's obvious where it could be associated with Fi types being more concerned with not compromising natural emotional state rather than the external mood; Fe types (particularly Fe dominants) that do this would have somewhat different motivations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    this i think is very Fi > Fe; i don't think it's universally applicable to all Fi types, but i do think that Fe types (particularly Fe dominant types) would give a greater focus on preserving the overall emotional atmosphere.
    I think this is a huge oversimplification. I've seen people make these convenient distinctions on this forum a lot when it just isn't that easy. (And, unfortunately, it usually comes from people with both weak Fi and Fe.)

    Fe is not a chameleon function that conforms to whatever emotional atmosphere its presented with, but can be quite personal. It is entirely possible for one's own "emotional atmosphere" to clash with that imposed upon them by others. This happens all the time between me and my parents' largely Alpha SF friends. And it also happens quite a lot when I am depressed. When one's own desired "emotional atmosphere" is at odds with that desired by others, it makes perfect sense for a sort of lukewarmth or even outright resentment to emerge.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by for reference
    My parents constantly tell me to be smile more and be more friendly because apparently I am not whenever I meet their friends, etc. I abhor it when they tell me to do that because I don't sacrifice my inner feelings to create an external mood for other people just because "it's the right thing to do" in a social situation.
    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    I think this is a huge oversimplification. I've seen people make these convenient distinctions on this forum a lot when it just isn't that easy. (And, unfortunately, it usually comes from people with both weak Fi and Fe.)

    Fe is not a chameleon function that conforms to whatever emotional atmosphere its presented with, but can be quite personal. It is entirely possible for one's own "emotional atmosphere" to clash with that imposed upon them by others. This happens all the time between me and my parents' largely Alpha SF friends. And it also happens quite a lot when I am depressed. When one's own desired "emotional atmosphere" is at odds with that desired by others, it makes perfect sense for a sort of lukewarmth or even outright resentment to emerge.
    well that makes sense i guess. but one distinction i would make is that you seem to want to impose your own kind of atmosphere, whereas an Fi type might be less concerned with that than the sort of purity of their inner sentiments.

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    Well, for the Fe-Ips, it may not necessarily be a desire to impose their own emotional atmosphere on others (this is more what the Fe-Ejs do), but rather for the external environment to mirror their inner world. Fi-types, on the other hand, would be indifferent in this regard, IME. But I can't tell which specifically is the case for ScarlettLux here from just what she posted. I just wanted to note that we can't say for sure whether it definitely is Fi at odds with Fe, or Fe at odds with someone else's Fe. Also, as someone else noted in this thread, Fe-types also have strong Fi and certain circumstances might trigger them to grapple with those inner sentiments for a while. IEIs in particular tend to go into a period of isolation in this case.

    Scarlett might well be SEE or another Fi-type, but not necessarily for this particular reason.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    These sorts of things lead me back to thinking I might not be Fe. I don't have much desire that I'm aware of to impose an emotional atmosphere, or manipulate the emotional atmosphere... What I do have is an awareness of the atmosphere itself and how it is favorable or unfavorable to certain outcomes, to me, and to others. I relate to the Fe awareness aspect of Fe... but not so much to the outward expression of Fe. Also I'm not sure I'd be very good at creating the sort of Fe environment Carla mentioned in her post... or even that I would see it as important to do so... In the past I think I've been rather neglectful of creating welcoming atmospheres or of seeing them as important. Also if I put myself in Carla's shoes in her example... I'd feel *really* uncomfortable if everyone decided to welcome me and acknowledge my presence at once... I think anyway.

    I also wanted to add that I don't know that "fakeness" is a good thing to go off of... you can create fake Fi or fake Fe, for instance. Like if someone pretends to be all concerned with your personal problems... wouldn't that be fake Fi? I don't see a point in associating all perception of fake emotion with Fe.

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    You know, I don’t really understand the concept of Fe that's floating around this forum.
    Fe creatives have the hidden agenda of "to understand". How does pushing others to abide by some emotional atmosphere, or forcing them to contribute to an emotional atmosphere, or "faking" emotions contribute to their hidden agenda?

    IMO, descriptions of Fe creative should somehow involve how it fits in with the hidden agenda. (Actually, not just Fe creative…any ego creative description needs to be cross checked with how it helps aid achieving the hidden agenda, imo.) This would be an excellent way of ensuring that one's not pushing one's on biases onto the function/type.

    A couple of examples of two Fe creative types that I spend a lot of time with.
    1) Richard (SiFe) is willing to do a lot for me. I'm not clear in the signals I give out, and that's pretty much all he asks of me. If my signals aren't clear to him, then how can he understand what I want from him? So I have to make an extra effort to be clear verbally about what I want from him. The clearer I am, the happier he is.

    This man is willing to do a lot for me. But he doesn't know what I want from him, unless I signal/tell him. For example, today, he worked his ass off for me by building a temporary fence for our home. I wanted it so that we could let the dog outside and let her enjoy some space and smelling and the nice weather without my having to stand out there with her every time. So I told him what I wanted done, what materials I wanted him to use, and when I wanted it done by. At first he hemmed and hawed. It's a lot of work to contemplate, and he'd never put up a fence like that before. But I insisted. Because I insisted, it obviously was something that I really really wanted! So he did it. He purchased the materials I wanted, even called me while he was at the store to let me know what my options were, and to get further clarification. Today we went out and worked on it, and he listened to my suggestions and even input some of his own (obviously, since HE's the one building it). One of my suggestions that helped him a lot was when I suggested building a refillable trench so that we didn't have to worry about the unevenness of the ground affecting the tightness and durability of the fence. His suggestions involved more aesthetic appeal (he's a real perfectionist when it comes to that kind of thing). And a few times I had to put my foot down and tell him that it didn't need to be perfect, just functional and durable.

    He worked all day on this project for me. What did he ask for in return? Acknowledgement of how much work he was putting in, appreciation for his efforts, and maybe a little loving later (lol). Again, since my normal signals aren't that easily readable, I have to put in effort to clarify them. Does this mean I'm supposed to fake my emotions? Not all. Just be CLEAR about them.
    Clear != Fake
    Fake != Clear

    2) I spend quite a bit of time with my brother (NiFe). Not as much as I'd like to since I moved down here with Richard, but almost every time I am in town, I call him up and he'll join me on my errands and such. He doesn't care what we do, it's the quality time we spend together that he enjoys, I think. When I ask him what he wants to do, where does he want to go, what does he want to eat, etc, he most of the time says that he doesn't care. If I suggest something that he doesn't particularly want, he'll offer an alternative suggestion…lol, which usually leads to me offering suggestions and hoping he'll make the decision, and so on until (usually) I get impatient enough that I decide on a place. Again, it's not where we go, what we do, what we eat…but spending time together.

    When we talk about things, particularly things that are important to either of us at the time, he spends a lot of time trying to read my signals. But again, my signals aren't very clear. He may start doing things like raising his voice a bit, or talking faster, something…ANYthing…to get me to start signaling to him that I understand him..what he's saying. Unfortunately, the faster he talks, or the louder his voice goes, the more quite and mellow I get…the less signals I put out for him to read. The less signals I put out, the more unsure he is if I'm understanding him..or if he's understanding me.

    It takes a little more time and effort on my part to be clear when interacting with my brother. My signals aren't clear, so I'm left with words. But most of the things we discuss are so abstract that I have a much harder time being clear. My thoughts just aren't clear enough, nor structured enough to communicate easily. However, in day to day kind of things, like what I want to do, or sharing/discussing memories/experiences, etc, our communications flow MUCH easier.

    ***

    Both of them are very accommodating of other people. Just so long as they themselves aren't being pushed upon in ways they don't like, then they are "easy". Both of them pay attention to signals, and the clearer the signal they're given, the more at ease they feel.

    And for those who didn't get it the first round…
    Clear is not Fake
    Fake is not Clear
    And, ime (not just with the above two), Fe creative types really want CLEAR signals, and CLEAR signals help them understand those around them.
    IEE 649 sx/sp cp

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