View Poll Results: Which one are you for?

Voters
44. You may not vote on this poll
  • ProChoice

    25 56.82%
  • ProLife

    12 27.27%
  • indifferent

    7 15.91%
Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567
Results 241 to 277 of 277

Thread: ProChoice vs ProLife

  1. #241
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Yeah...what alternative do you prefer? (sounds like sarcasm, I think, when I type it, but I really am asking )



    Personally, I'm bothered by the term "pro-life," but I get where they're coming from
    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    @Subteigh I don't think either terms are correct. One is specifically anti-abortion but does not make them pro-life since they can be pro-life and want to fry some child molester. A lot of people who wave signs at clinics will also be there to wave signs for the death penalty. The other one is just for-choice when it comes to their bodies and families.
    I really did intend to use the term "pro-choice", and it is the label I have always used for such a position, if it has to be reduced to a short term. I was just ended up saying "pro-abortion" without really thinking: I suppose I'd prefer the term "pro-legal" or similar...but none of these terms work as stand-alone terms ("pro-choice" only works in that is commonly understood to only refer to this topic ).

    Both "pro-life" and "pro-choice" have emotional connotations (especially "pro-life" in my view, but this may be biased)...with "pro-life", you certainly don't get "pro-lifers" with 20 children (whether biological or adopted)...with rare exceptions! ...and you don't get "pro-lifers" living exclusively on roadkill (again, with rare exceptions).

  2. #242
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I just have one question for the pro-choicers: Why is the mother's life worth more than the babies?
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  3. #243
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    I just have one question for the pro-choicers: Why is the mother's life worth more than the babies?
    The life of the mother and the fetus is worth more than that of the mother or the fetus. But the fetus cannot live independently of the mother (for at least most of the permissible fetus age-limit for abortions). If making abortion illegal only increases the number of deaths of women from illegal abortions, or from women committing suicide while pregnant, I would think that would be reason enough for abortion to be legal.

    Why is the life of a human fetus necessarily worth more than that of a cow?

  4. #244
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    The life of the mother and the fetus is worth more than that of the mother or the fetus. But the fetus cannot live independently of the mother (for at least most of the permissible fetus age-limit for abortions). If making abortion illegal only increases the number of deaths of women from illegal abortions, or from women committing suicide while pregnant, I would think that would be reason enough for abortion to be legal.
    There are ways to adapt (as a society) that the child will be taken care of even in the few instances where the mother dies of childbirth or doesn't want to take care of the baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    Why is the life of a human fetus necessarily worth more than that of a cow?
    The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that the human fetus grows up to know how to reason better than the cow thereby being more of a sentient being. You have to ask yourself if you would rather have a more sentient being on the planet or a less sentient one on the planet.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  5. #245
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,230
    Mentioned
    935 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    I just have one question for the pro-choicers: Why is the mother's life worth more than the babies?
    It is not technically not a "baby" until it can live outside the womb and saying that is used to evoke emotional responses in women who are already struggling with difficult decisions.

    Would you sacrifice any female, in your own family, for my, or anyone else's, fetus?

    Sperm is technically human life too so masturbating is killing a potential baby. Women don't kill their potential babies every time they touch themselves.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  6. #246
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It is not technically not a "baby" until it can live outside the womb and saying that is used to evoke emotional responses in women who are already struggling with difficult decisions.
    Semantics. I'd argue what we know of how babies develop in the womb makes it a matter of debate when exactly it is a baby.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Would you sacrifice any female, in your own family, for my, or anyone else's, fetus?
    Any female I know to a fetus I don't know is not a correlation coefficient. I might just value a baby that I knew of more than I female I knew, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Sperm is technically human life too so masturbating is killing a potential baby. Women don't kill their potential babies every time they touch themselves.
    You can't argue it both ways. Either the baby is alive while in the womb or it isn't. And without and egg that is impregnated and given the almost endless supply of sperm a male can produce, and given a male can impregnate a woman even though he has just masterbated, it makes your point moot.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  7. #247
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    There are ways to adapt (as a society) that the child will be taken care of even in the few instances where the mother dies of childbirth or doesn't want to take care of the baby.
    I think if we start legislating that the state has ultimate autonomy of a person's body, we will move drastically away from a state that acts in the interest of individuals and of wider society. It cannot be rational to not permit the individual to be governor of their own body. You would risk the life of a person against their will for the possibility of allowing a life that would agree with such a state of affairs.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    The only reasonable answer I can come up with is that the human fetus grows up to know how to reason better than the cow thereby being more of a sentient being. You have to ask yourself if you would rather have a more sentient being on the planet or a less sentient one on the planet.
    I don't think an argument based on sentience really works. We all end up dead and non-sentient, and there are many people living who are less sentient than a cow. I also think that it is unsound to live contrary to the ability of the planet to sustainably support us, as humans currently do.

  8. #248
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    You can't argue it both ways. Either the baby is alive while in the womb or it isn't. And without and egg that is impregnated and given the almost endless supply of sperm a male can produce, and given a male can impregnate a woman even though he has just masterbated, it makes your point moot.
    If we cannot argue it both ways, I'd appreciate it if you could actually provide a clear distinction between living and dead.

  9. #249
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,230
    Mentioned
    935 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    Semantics. I'd argue what we know of how babies develop in the womb makes it a matter of debate when exactly it is a baby.
    Semantics meant to elicit emotional responses.


    Any female I know to a fetus I don't know is not a correlation coefficient. I might just value a baby that I knew of more than I female I knew, however.
    Why?

    I guess you can answer that when you are in a loving relationship and value your partner above others. FTR, I could sacrifice any adult in my family for a living breathing child in my family but if I had a choice it would be me that I would sacrifice for any of the kids in my family.

    You can't argue it both ways. Either the baby is alive while in the womb or it isn't. And without and egg that is impregnated and given the almost endless supply of sperm a male can produce, and given a male can impregnate a woman even though he has just masterbated, it makes your point moot.
    It is still life. I am not arguing it both ways. I was being factitious.





    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  10. #250
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteih;1131942g
    I think if we start legislating that the state has ultimate autonomy of a person's body, we will move drastically away from a state that acts in the interest of individuals and of wider society. It cannot be rational to not permit the individual to be governor of their own body. You would risk the life of a person against their will for the possibility of allowing a life that would agree with such a state of affairs.
    Who said anything about legislation? I think the government has proven to fail us all the time so I don't think just making laws is the right way to go about it. And just because a baby comes from a body, doesn't mean it only is one body. there is a body in a pregnant woman and this cannot be overlooked. This is why I suggest women don't have sex until they are ready to get pregnant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteih;1131942g
    I don't think an argument based on sentience really works. We all end up dead and non-sentient, and there are many people living who are less sentient than a cow. I also think that it is unsound to live contrary to the ability of the planet to sustainably support us, as humans currently do.
    Sentient creature have the best chance to prolong the earth, contrary to popular believe that all humans do is fuck up the earth. If you don't care about the future then it really doesn't even matter what kind of policies we have for or against abortion in the first place.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  11. #251
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Semantics meant to elicit emotional responses.
    It fails to do that for me, sorry.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Why?

    I guess you can answer that when you are in a loving relationship and value your partner above others. FTR, I could sacrifice any adult in my family for a living breathing child in my family but if I had a choice it would be me that I would sacrifice for any of the kids in my family.
    Its not applicable with a loving couple whom could just as easily be deciding to have a baby. Emotional attachment is a powerful thing. Perhaps too powerful. Especially when it gets in the way of what actually makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It is still life. I am not arguing it both ways. I was being factitious.



    I prefer not to make masterbation the focal point of this argument.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  12. #252
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    If we cannot argue it both ways, I'd appreciate it if you could actually provide a clear distinction between living and dead.
    I don't think that matters too much. What my personal interpretation of life is and when that dies isn't the biggest issue here.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  13. #253
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    I don't think that matters too much. What my personal interpretation of life is and when that dies isn't the biggest issue here.
    "Some people think football is a matter of life and death. I assure you, it's much more serious than that." ~ Bill Shankly

  14. #254
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,230
    Mentioned
    935 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    It fails to do that for me, sorry.
    Which being is the most sentient to you? Would you sacrifice the first to save one of the others?






    Its not applicable with a loving couple whom could just as easily be deciding to have a baby. Emotional attachment is a powerful thing. Perhaps too powerful. Especially when it gets in the way of what actually makes sense.
    It is applicable if you are the one making the choice in the delivery room to save the person your love most or a child you have never met. You asked why a woman's life is more valuable.


    I prefer not to make masterbation the focal point of this argument.
    Yes, exactly and women prefer not to have men who have no vested interest in a pregnancy discussing their right to autonomy over their own bodies.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  15. #255
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,673
    Mentioned
    251 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Aylen, I know you are just trying to be funny but I find the Jesus poster really offensive. Also the attempt to to vilify God with the cartoon. It is sure to entertain Subteigh - you can count on that - but its frustrating to me because it cannot be answered back with a cartoon. Only with a deep discussion about truth - the kind that Subteigh is not interested in, nor any of the other scoffers of God, or what-is-truth people - who do get a kick out of it. But it just makes me very sad. Just saying.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  16. #256
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    Who said anything about legislation? I think the government has proven to fail us all the time so I don't think just making laws is the right way to go about it. And just because a baby comes from a body, doesn't mean it only is one body. there is a body in a pregnant woman and this cannot be overlooked. This is why I suggest women don't have sex until they are ready to get pregnant.
    I presumed that you are in favour of obliging pregnant women to give birth if it was against their will or if their own health was at risk (which in all pregnancies, is escalated, to at least some degree).

    I think that intentionally causing the death of a fetus contrary to the will of the mother should certainly be a criminal offence, although I'm not sure it should be murder. I do not think this view is inconsistent with allow abortion to be legal, however.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    Sentient creature have the best chance to prolong the earth, contrary to popular believe that all humans do is fuck up the earth. If you don't care about the future then it really doesn't even matter what kind of policies we have for or against abortion in the first place.
    Prolong the earth how? In a certain sense, the "productivity" of nature may have increased under humans, but in another sense, we are probably undergoing the fastest mass-extinction of species in the history of the planet as a result of humans. I suppose humans could always invent new species, and move away from agricultural monocultures...and not adversly affect the climate. But I'm not convinced that arguments based solely on the supremacy of sentience is helpful in regards whether abortion should be legal or not.

  17. #257
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Aylen, I know you are just trying to be funny but I find the Jesus poster really offensive. Also the attempt to to vilify God with the cartoon. It is sure to entertain Subteigh - you can count on that - but its frustrating to me because it cannot be answered back with a cartoon. Only with a deep discussion about truth - the kind that Subteigh is not interested in, nor any of the other scoffers of God, or what-is-truth people - who do get a kick out of it. But it just makes me very sad. Just saying.
    I think being anti-abortion is a tenable position without reference to religion. However, I find it difficult to take seriously those who claim abortion is a great evil on one hand, but that Damnation is perfectly just on the other.

  18. #258
    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    513
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    Who said anything about legislation? I think the government has proven to fail us all the time so I don't think just making laws is the right way to go about it. And just because a baby comes from a body, doesn't mean it only is one body. there is a body in a pregnant woman and this cannot be overlooked. This is why I suggest women don't have sex until they are ready to get pregnant.



    Sentient creature have the best chance to prolong the earth, contrary to popular believe that all humans do is fuck up the earth. If you don't care about the future then it really doesn't even matter what kind of policies we have for or against abortion in the first place.
    @Subteigh and @Aylen are making great points, but since no one has mentioned this I'll just highlight it and ask, at the risk of a minor off-topic moment, when you suggest men have sex.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

  19. #259
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,230
    Mentioned
    935 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    @Aylen, I know you are just trying to be funny but I find the Jesus poster really offensive. Also the attempt to to vilify God with the cartoon. It is sure to entertain Subteigh - you can count on that - but its frustrating to me because it cannot be answered back with a cartoon. Only with a deep discussion about truth - the kind that Subteigh is not interested in, nor any of the other scoffers of God, or what-is-truth people - who do get a kick out of it. But it just makes me very sad. Just saying.
    It might be presented in a "funny" way but it is true that many Christian sects are against it and consider it a sin. I know that for a fact. I am stating that sperm is actually life, and it is human too, if we want to get technical. I don't think the bible condones it but if it does link me because I know people who suffer terrible guilt over it.

    The practice is discouraged in other religions as well. I have nothing against it personally.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  20. #260
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    @Subteigh and @Aylen are making great points, but since no one has mentioned this I'll just highlight it and ask, at the risk of a minor off-topic moment, when you suggest men have sex.
    Obviously it should be the same. The only way it shouldn't is if the woman is on the pill or any other form of contraceptive that has a very good chance at preventing a pregnancy.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  21. #261
    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    513
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    Obviously it should be the same. The only way it shouldn't is if the woman is on the pill or any other form of contraceptive that has a very good chance at preventing a pregnancy.
    Okay then. Thanks for the quick response...carry on.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

  22. #262
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,230
    Mentioned
    935 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Subteigh View Post
    I presumed that you in favour of obliging pregnant women to give birth if it was against their will or if their own health was at risk (which in all pregnancies, is escalated, to at least some degree).
    In 2013 one of my best friends died giving birth to a baby that was a product of a coerced pregnancy. She had just turned 30. He (the baby's dad) forced her to go through with it even though the doctors told her with her second child not to have more children. I knew when she told me she was pregnant that something really bad was going to happen. My heart sank into my stomach but I didn't tell her. I supported her choice. Maybe I should have talked to her more when she was considering an abortion. Maybe she would have considered the risks more. Even I underestimated the risks and thought modern medicine would make sure she lived through it. Now the biological father has dropped off the face of the earth and her family has full custody. grrr Yeah, he wanted that baby so much.

    In this day and age it is shocking to realize that people actually do die during childbirth but it is only when it happens to someone you love that it becomes very real. It took months for the shock of it to wear off and I already had a bad feeling from the moment I was told. If people are curious whey I feel so strongly about it, that is one of many reasons.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  23. #263
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think I am generally of the view that while I would personally find it difficult to have an abortion myself if I was able (I said before I think that after the quickening, or perhaps even earlier, when the fetus has the ability to respond to pain would basically be the point where having an abortion would weigh on my conscience to any degree) that I do not believe that women have abortions "for the sake of it": that in itself is not a justification for whether something should be permissible of course...and I do know that a simple look at abortion rates over several years in some cases has shown that people have used abortion as a form of birth control after knowingly having unprotected sex.

  24. #264
    Seriously Judicious Emotivist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    eastern U.S.
    TIM
    ENFp, IEE
    Posts
    2,673
    Mentioned
    251 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It might be presented in a "funny" way but it is true that many Christian sects are against it and consider it a sin. I know that for a fact. I am stating that sperm is actually life, and it is human too, if we want to get technical. I don't think the bible condones it but if it does link me because I know people who suffer terrible guilt over it.

    The practice is discouraged in other religions as well. I have nothing against it personally.
    Well, quick reply on the topic is that Catholics also makes it clear that that is sin. Sin is doing things that hurt ourselves and others. Sex has a higher purpose. Not just procreation, which is a high purpose indeed, but also its unitive purpose - a great high good, a good God wants us to enjoy in its fullest and best way.

    So, you can see that there is nothing about sex with yourself that is unitive. Its just self turned on self. A misuse of the high, set-apart purpose of the great good of sex. Its profaning the sacred, basically. Sex with self very likely steals from the wonderful unitive nature of sex, like other profanities of sex also do, in their own ways: pornography, fornication and adultery.

    Certainly forms of the latter may seem, to our minds, in certain situations, to be a "good". Yet, God says otherwise. Yes, our ways are not God's ways and it takes faith and trust in Him to believe this in cases where it seems unreasonable to our minds. And not everybody has this faith and trust in God. And God understands that. He knows our hearts and our minds and our thoughts even better than we do. And those who do not know and do not love God or know that His ways are for our own highest good are not held accountable like those of us who know this. Nonetheless, God made us, and knows what is best for us, and those who follow God's ways for their own reason, or by the dictates of their own religion, are blessed by that choice as well as protected from the particular harms of a choice that God did not design us for.

    So in short: God's purpose for sex: between one man and one woman who are vowed in marriage. That is the great good for the body and the soul. And for the children that naturally follow - obviously that is best.

    This is Church teaching filtered though my own thought on the spot. I think I explained it pretty well, so if you want a pretty good explanation, there it is. If you want perfection it can be found by researching actual Catholic teaching on the matter. Much has been said on it!

    God is good, and His ways are wise.

    "As for my God, His way is undefiled: the words of the Lord are fire tried: He is the protector of all that trust in Him." -Psalm 18:30

    P.S. Life begins at conception.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  25. #265
    Kim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    TIM
    IEE e7 783 sx so
    Posts
    6,929
    Mentioned
    396 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Well, quick reply on the topic is that Catholics also makes it clear that that is sin. Sin is doing things that hurt ourselves and others. Sex has a higher purpose. Not just procreation, which is a high purpose indeed, but also its unitive purpose - a great high good, a good God wants us to enjoy in its fullest and best way.

    So, you can see that there is nothing about sex with yourself that is unitive. Its just self turned on self. A misuse of the high, set-apart purpose of the great good of sex. Its profaning the sacred, basically. Sex with self very likely steals from the wonderful unitive nature of sex, like other profanities of sex also do, in their own ways: pornography, fornication and adultery.
    I can't think of a single reason why masturbation would be harmful (unless it turns into an obsession, but that goes for all things). Not a single one and I really tried to think of one. It's even physically healthy to orgasm and it fosters unity between partners when both reach orgasm. And for many women it's easier to climax with a partner when they know how to do it themselves. There is nothing bad about it. Especially women should be encouraged to masturbate so they don't always end up being the ones left in the cold when the man is finished.

    And it's not like the sex drive goes away when a person is single....
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

  26. #266
    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    513
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I can't think of a single reason why masturbation would be harmful (unless it turns into an obsession, but that goes for all things). Not a single one and I really tried to think of one. It's even physically healthy to orgasm and it fosters unity between partners when both reach orgasm. And for many women it's easier to climax with a partner when they know how to do it themselves. There is nothing bad about it. Especially women should be encouraged to masturbate so they don't always end up being the ones left in the cold when the man is finished.

    And it's not like the sex drive goes away when a person is single....
    Yeah...I realize we are getting onto another topic, but my goodness. Masturbation being forbidden just strikes me as pointless. (And people who try to restrain natural things like masturbation and sex altogether may turn to much worse vices....) People can masturbate and still experience the joy of unity through sex. One doesn't preclude the other, surely.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

  27. #267
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Which being is the most sentient to you? Would you sacrifice the first to save one of the others?



    IDK honestly. I might just flip a coin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    It is applicable if you are the one making the choice in the delivery room to save the person your love most or a child you have never met. You asked why a woman's life is more valuable.
    In today's age the nice thing is that you can tell if there is something wrong with the baby/if giving birth is going to be an issue, so I presume I could talk it over with my SO before hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Yes, exactly and women prefer not to have men who have no vested interest in a pregnancy discussing their right to autonomy over their own bodies.
    If a woman is the one to carry the baby and is responsible for what she does to her own body, then it also makes sense that she is responsible for when she has sex. Rape being the exception, I see no reason why a female can't say no to sex.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  28. #268
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Catholicism has no authority on matters of sexuality. The fact that it is a common occurrence for a priest to get caught molesting a child is evidence of this. To repress sexual urges should be a sin, not the other way around as seen by what it does to men who can't have sex.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  29. #269
    SongOfSapphire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    TIM
    IEE
    Posts
    513
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    Catholicism has no authority on matters of sexuality. The fact that it is a common occurrence for a priest to get caught molesting a child is evidence of this. To repress sexual urges should be a sin, not the other way around as seen by what it does to men who can't have sex.
    Agreed. It was all I could do not to bring up the recurring sexual molestation of children by priests.

    I like that you argue against abortion without bringing religion into it, @QuickTwist...but I think the limit you propose -- no sex without either a desire to create children or birth control in place -- is unrealistic. For one thing, not everyone who has sexual desire and opportunity is able to use birth control. Combine that w the fact that people are sometimes just plain weak in the face of powerful desire, and you have unwanted pregnancies. (That's setting aside the fact that birth control isn't always effective even when it is used.)
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

  30. #270
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sapphire View Post
    Agreed. It was all I could do not to bring up the recurring sexual molestation of children by priests.

    I like that you argue against abortion without bringing religion into it, @QuickTwist...but I think the limit you propose -- no sex without either a desire to create children or birth control in place -- is unrealistic. For one thing, not everyone who has sexual desire and opportunity is able to use birth control. Combine that w the fact that people are sometimes just plain weak in the face of powerful desire, and you have unwanted pregnancies. (That's setting aside the fact that birth control isn't always effective even when it is used.)
    Yes, I'm glad you noticed that I argue Pro-Life without bringing religion into it. I am happy about that.

    To me it is that same as if an individual can prevent an accident to someone, but they are inconvenienced to do so, what would be the right thing to do? I see it as the mother being inconvenienced to let a being live instead of having it die.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  31. #271
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Spiritus Mundi
    TIM
    psyche 4w5 sx/sp
    Posts
    11,230
    Mentioned
    935 Post(s)
    Tagged
    42 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickTwist View Post
    IDK honestly. I might just flip a coin.

    In today's age the nice thing is that you can tell if there is something wrong with the baby/if giving birth is going to be an issue, so I presume I could talk it over with my SO before hand.

    If a woman is the one to carry the baby and is responsible for what she does to her own body, then it also makes sense that she is responsible for when she has sex. Rape being the exception, I see no reason why a female can't say no to sex.
    I didn't really expect you to have an answer about the two images. It was rhetorical, mostly something to think about. I have thought about it enough to know where I stand.

    I think what you are now saying is that if you and your partner discovered her life was in danger you would be open to looking at all options but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

    I do agree that both men and women are responsible for their own bodies but as others have said it is easier said than done and there are too many variables to have a one size fits all answer. There is no reason a man can't say no to sex either but you seem to be in agreement that the only way a man won't inadvertently get someone pregnant, who might want to terminate, is not to have sex with anyone until they are on the same page. Ultimately you can only be responsible for your own choices when it comes to sex and if a man wants a guarantee he will have to make sure he is doing his part even if that means completely abstaining but most people will not abstain and birth control is not 100%.

    I admit I was curious how many other solutions you would present since you self type Ne ego and you seem mildly invested in this issue. Ne egos are good at viewing things from multiple angles. Many men who won't touch this issue with a ten foot pole, for good reason.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  32. #272
    Undecided QuickTwist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    346
    Mentioned
    23 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I didn't really expect you to have an answer about the two images. It was rhetorical, mostly something to think about. I have thought about it enough to know where I stand.

    I think what you are now saying is that if you and your partner discovered her life was in danger you would be open to looking at all options but I don't want to put words in your mouth.

    I do agree that both men and women are responsible for their own bodies but as others have said it is easier said than done and there are too many variables to have a one size fits all answer. There is no reason a man can't say no to sex either but you seem to be in agreement that the only way a man won't inadvertently get someone pregnant, who might want to terminate, is not to have sex with anyone until they are on the same page. Ultimately you can only be responsible for your own choices when it comes to sex and if a man wants a guarantee he will have to make sure he is doing his part even if that means completely abstaining but most people will not abstain and birth control is not 100%.

    I admit I was curious how many other solutions you would present since you self type Ne ego and you seem mildly invested in this issue. Ne egos are good at viewing things from multiple angles. Many men who won't touch this issue with a ten foot pole, for good reason.
    To be completely honest, I am not really sure where I stand on abortion. I just don't like it when a (presumably my) opinion is not accounted for. I argued pro-life as a non-religious person because I see the value in protecting what is new.
    I struggle with motivation, apathy and sticking to goals.

  33. #273
    Landlady of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    TIM
    Enlightened
    Posts
    16,595
    Mentioned
    324 Post(s)
    Tagged
    4 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    P.S. Life begins at conception.
    In the bible, the killing of fetuses and babies under one month of age was not even considered unlawful, and such fetuses and babies were not even considered people. What is the reason for your view?

  34. #274
    Kill4Me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    TIM
    SLE-Ti 8w7 so/sp
    Posts
    2,324
    Mentioned
    231 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    I have been in the situation once. i had her get an abortion, without even a flicker of hesitation. I couldn't wait around and gamble on her having a miscarriage. That's too speculative. It was well worth it....best thing I ever spent money on. And it was nuthin' personal to her....she wasn't a slut and she was very attractive. I would pay for an abortion just for the fact I wouldn't want the woman to be the mother of my kids or attached to me legally for the rest of my life through that kid. I would also pay for an abortion in the event the woman I got pregnant was either having an affair with me behind a significant other's back or I was having an affair with her behind a significant other's back. Neither one of those scenarios pertained to this one. This was just business...it wasn't time for me to have a kid. Plain and simple. and i'm not gonna let some little friggin' cellular carpet stain mess my life up like I seen it done to so many of the kids I grew up with. They threw their lives away because they had kids even before they hit their twenties.....so they wanted to be pro-life, now they have no life. Changing diapers isn't a life. Kids are dumb and annoying on top of it...some guy i worked with told me that 'he had a few put away himself. it'll come back to haunt you." It doesn't haunt me at all. It was like sending her in for checkup at the dentist. It ruined the relationship. whatever. ain't got no kid, though. don't get me wrong, there will be a time. i'd like to have lots of boys....ten kids equals ten minions. but I will only have them from a position of strength financially.

    My position really boils down to, "whatever I want"....which I guess is the justification pro-choice goes by (but they call it liberty). I am pro-killing-the-fetus 100 percent but I am indifferent to what other people think on the issue. It only becomes relevant to me when it gets in my way. In general, I don't give a damn what the pro-life argument is....even if what the pro-lifers argue is a 100 percent truth. No pro-lifer is gonna move me with their moralizations. The pro-life argument is inherently false besides....because having a kid equals not having a life....kids are good for people that are emotionally dependent on others for their sense of purpose/fulfillment/happiness. That's not me. Sure, I want kids at some point....but I don't need kids.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 05-08-2016 at 07:22 PM.

  35. #275
    Hacking your soul since the beginning of time Hitta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    In your mom's uterus
    Posts
    4,113
    Mentioned
    188 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Every time I masturbate I kill millions of children.
    Model X Will Save Us!

    *randomwarelinkremoved

    jessica129:scrotums r hot

    :" hitting cap makes me envision cervix smashing"

Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 34567

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •