Udp

[Mediator Kam]

We get along pretty well, contrary what you guys might believe based on our interaction in the forum, lol.

no reason not to, unless you have a problem with people not engaging in meaningless interaction.

[munenori2]

then there was the Fi thing, in which he absolutely, pointedly, was not able to discuss his personal relationships in any meaningful fashion, which made me seriously wonder how Fi DS is possible.

Hmm, when I've spoken to him that hasn't seemed much of an issue at all (his reluctance to speak about it, I mean). Without getting into the nitty gritty, he's talked to me quite a bit about his family, whom he gets on best with and who he doesn't, as well as quite a few other people he's had experience with previously in his life. I agree with the stress on Si, that seems very apparent, as does his disenchantment with Fe.

I think part of the past assertions that he values Fe is more a sign of his weak Fe/Fi. I've noticed a distinct preference for the latter, though his acceptance of Fe (when he doesn't mind it) seems to revolve more around having an Fi-foundation behind the expression. As Cyclops pointed out, he's got a pretty strong aversion to deception. In the Te/Ti realm he definitely seems to favor the former (a sort of 'what-can-I-do-with-this' attitude rather than a 'what-does-this-tell-me' kind of one, if that makes any sense). I realize I'm not concretizing most of what I'm saying here, but I didn't want to pull stuff out of our conversations and violate his confidence. Maybe I'll think of something illustrative though.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

well, taking a cyclops-esque approach, there are also several ESTj descriptions which describe them as having really good manners, acting "gentlemanly" which would probably not include referring to women in an overtly sexual fashion or having to be repeatedly prompted to do this. that just seems like bad form, but probably not really what i expect from Te-EJ either.

Something also to note about ESTj's is that when they interact with strangers they are always polite and well mannered (this is especially applicable in males when meeting people of the opposite sex)

Once an ESTj feels more familiar with the person, I don't see why they wouldn't make jokes of a sexual nature. It's possible that they could use assistance from their dual to remind them if/when they go to far in this.

[implied]

Something also to note about ESTj's is that when they interact with strangers they are always polite and well mannered (this is especially applicable in males when meeting people of the opposite sex)

Once an ESTj feels more familiar with the person, I don't see why they wouldn't make jokes of a sexual nature. It's possible that they could use assistance from their dual to remind them if/when they go to far in this.

yeah, but i was referring mostly to interaction on the forum, not his private interactions.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

yeah, but i was referring mostly to interaction on the forum, not his private interactions.

Yes but he's been here for a while now, maybe he feels comfortable to say things on the forum, which is not that great a leap to see. If you think he is going too far (and if he actually is), perhaps you could point it out to him and see if it is of assistance.

[implied]

Yes but he's been here for a while now, maybe he feels comfortable to say things on the forum, which is not that great a leap to see. If you think he is going too far (and if he actually is), perhaps you could point it out to him and see if it is of assistance.

idk, if he knows us that well and is that comfortable with us, i don't see why he couldn't talk about his personal relationships in any significant form or fashion when prompted.

[Mediator Kam]

idk, if he knows us that well and is that comfortable with us, i don't see why he couldn't talk about his personal relationships in any significant form or fashion when prompted.

maybe because it's none of our business? Some people are more private than others.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

idk, if he knows us that well and is that comfortable with us, i don't see why he couldn't talk about his personal relationships in any significant form or fashion when prompted.

Making jokes is different from being Fi seeking, the fact that he tends not to talk about his relationship statics suggests he's looking for someone to guide him, maybe he's wanting someone he feels familiar with to guide him (possibly) in any event it does appear he is unsure about it. It's a good case as many for Fi seeking I think. (as we are approaching it from function perspective here)

[implied]

maybe because it's none of our business? Some people are more private than others.

i agree that some people are more private than others. but basically what i interpreted cyclops as saying is that UDP feels comfortable enough to joke sexually and act candidly around here (which, idk, maybe Fe-role in some situations is like this. i know my brother, an ESTj, is pretty restrained around elders + strangers, but it's a different story around people where he thinks it's okay.) yet he obviously feels comfortable enough with you, a Fe-type, to discuss his personal relationships.

[Mediator Kam]

i agree that some people are more private than others. but basically what i interpreted cyclops as saying is that UDP feels comfortable enough to joke sexually and act candidly around here (which, idk, maybe Fe-role in some situations is like this. i know my brother, an ESTj, is pretty restrained around elders + strangers, but it's a different story around people where he thinks it's okay.) yet he obviously feels comfortable enough with you, a Fe-type, to discuss his personal relationships.

No one said he was comfortable discussing his personal relationships with me. When I asked him about one of his relationships, he only said enough to answer my question, not a word more. But he does go into some detail about discussing Fi topics with his dual, such as spirituality and not talking so sexually to women.

[Joy]

Yo momma!

indeed

[UDP]

idk, if he knows us that well and is that comfortable with us, i don't see why he couldn't talk about his personal relationships in any significant form or fashion when prompted.

Are you under the assumption that I know "you" (plural) that well, and am comfortable with you all?

And you, on an individual basis, implied, how well do you think I know you, and how comfortable do you think I am with you? Remind us also when was the last time we spoke, off the forum.

yet he obviously feels comfortable enough with you, a Fe-type, to discuss his personal relationships.

You make it sound like I talk with Kamingir because he is an Fe type.

I talk with Kamingir because of his values. This is also the reason I do not talk to you, implied, nor have I sought out your opinion via pm or other means, to ask what you think in regard to the ethical or spiritual dilemmas I come across.

Kamingir, at least in our discussions, has strong beliefs and is open to serious discussion about them, which is what I look for. I value the sincerity and significance he places on these values, and that is why I feel comfortable talking about persona relationships with him.



PS: We joke a little now and then, but if our discussions were only filled with him acting like he does on the forum, mostly with other alphas, I would see no point in talking to him about serious matters.

[xyz]

PS: We joke a little now and then, but if our discussions were only filled with him acting like he does on the forum, mostly with other alphas, I would see no point in talking to him about serious matters.

burn

[Mediator Kam]

Are you under the assumption that I know "you" (plural) that well, and am comfortable with you all?

And you, on an individual basis, implied, how well do you think I know you, and how comfortable do you think I am with you? Remind us also when was the last time we spoke, off the forum.




You make it sound like I talk with Kamingir because he is an Fe type.

I talk with Kamingir because of his values. This is also the reason I do not talk to you, implied, nor have I sought out your opinion via pm or other means, to ask what you think in regard to the ethical or spiritual dilemmas I come across.

Kamingir, at least in our discussions, has strong beliefs and is open to serious discussion about them, which is what I look for. I value the sincerity and significance he places on these values, and that is why I feel comfortable talking about persona relationships with him.



PS: We joke a little now and then, but if our discussions were only filled with him acting like he does on the forum, mostly with other alphas, I would see no point in talking to him about serious matters.

I think what UDP is illustrating here that forum behavior is no indication of real life or even IM behavior. On the forum, I get caught up in the "Alpha Party" mentality, going all over the forum spewing horrible Ne ideas and Fe bleeding. But over IM and in real life, I can actually discuss concepts that challenge my reasoning and understanding of ideas I have been taught. I value that type of discussion over any "Alpha Party."

I would then conjecture that the type of man we see on the forum named "UDP" is at least partially different than the more raw UDP you would see on IM or in real life. As we can probably never meet UDP in real life, I would put more stock in IM communication, when a person is more chilled out and can pick a topic, instead of on the forum when the topics are set.

Thank you very much.

[UDP]

I am not sure about how much more I will write here - whoop dee doo if people are starting to see what I have been saying for months now. If you would actually like to discuss things with "me", in regard to my type, pm me. That's a good place to start.


This is what I wrote after seeing IMDFs post. It applies throughout the entire thread.

In fact, as UDP later described some pieces of his romantic life, alongisde his "superhero" aspirations elsewhere in life -- I began to wonder if this was someone who, as opposed to be an Se POLR type, might value Se. Even have it as an ego blocing. At this point I began to consider ISTj for UDP. But never very strongly because I've always had a problem with Ti base for him.

For some reason people tend to hyper analyze forum posts, and assume their interpretation of things is how I am.

I have never, ever gone into great detail about my romantic life here on the forum. Even with people I talk to on the forum via instant messaging programs outside of the forum - only get some of the story.


So when people say things like what I bolded, it is just questionable. Yes, what I posted may have been true, but you have to realize it was a forum post, it wasn't me biography. I was not talking to you, as someone I know very well, in earnest, and expressing my life outlook or romantic situation.

And yet there is apparently no consideration of how this plays into things.
Do you understand why I am saying this?


Look, look at how much that superhero stuff affected your whole interpretation of things:

--And this isn't something I relate to as a potential ENTj - on the contrary, it casts doubt upon me being that type (but not because I am lazy -- i'm not. But because the term "no heroics" might be a more accurate portrayal of myself: fairly risk-aversive.--

You pick up on a few posts that you interpret as heroics, and then keep playing about this concept throughout your analysis. When, in reality, I don't particularly care about being a hero, or saving the world. Yeah I thought about it for a while, and yeah, batman is cool, but you have no way of knowing how heroism plays a factor in my life or my beliefs. You're not asking the primary source, which is me. And yet this apparently was a major issue you had in typing me.

Am I being clear?

My beef is when people pick up one concept, or one theme, or one idea, one thing I or someone else wrote, and then take it as some major factor. They come up with all these ideas and reasonings in their head "Yeah... that makes sense -- because look it fits in just like this!", and work up these great stories and great opinions of things. And yet, in reality, that one theme, that one idea - it has significantly less weight than they interpret it to have.

Not only that, but you, imdf - never even attempted to talk to me about this on your own. You have no idea what any of that stuff means to me. And yet you used it in your analysis of me. My point here is - how can you legitimately say "I've analyzed this aspect of his personality, and here are the results" - and have faith in your conclusion? How do you do that? Based on what?


Just to be clear, this is not about me having something against ifmd- this is a common occurrence and a gripe I've had about people "typing me" before, so I will say it again here.

[Ezra]

let me make it more clear. ezra decided that he was ENTj in a most recent thread, which is a type which is in the gamma quadra, which is a quadra that values (as in Fi, as in introverted feeling.) i don't see what's wrong about asking ezra if his current opinion is in line with his signature. i get the idea that, although it may not be correct, unlike dee he doesn't change his signature to reflect his current thoughts on his own type every single time he changes his mind.

People still don't seem to understand that that thread was a joke. Obviously I've considered LIE in the past, and I still consider it on some level, but I always revert back to SLE; I always get the feeling that it all fits perfectly. As much as I want some Ni, and as much as I think I'm good in Te, it doesn't make me LIE. What makes me think I'm LIE is the Te, and because I value Se, I can easily say "I'm no good in Se but I still value it". However, if you analyse my Ni... where is it? Seriously. Do I have good Ni? And then I mistake Fe and Fi constantly, almost placing no value on Fi at all. I sometimes think I kid myself that I don't know what Fi is, but I actually do, just because I want to retain the possibility of being a Fi type. I don't like the idea that I am, for example, estranged from people like Minde and Slacker Mom, who I feel like I'm just beginning good relations with after half a year. It's good to maintain peace and harmony with everyone. Only when the war starts does the soldier need to use his aggression to great effect. In peacetime, good terms with all is a necessity.

I simply do not see any evidence of unvalued Ni/Se, much less a Ni PoLR.

Do you see evidence of valued Ni/Se?

I think this is a common result of "thinking about it too much", or "expecting humans to behave to rigid definitions 100% of the time"

I disagree. It's the product of an excessive confidence in one's opinions and beliefs. FTR, I believe humans do behave according to rigid definitions 100% of time. This is because those definitions will be continuously updated to cater for the many complexities of human nature.

it's a lot like ezra.

It's nothing like me. UDP believed he was an LII, then made a huge case for LSE. I came to the forum, shouted, got shouted at, and considered a variety of types, most of which I'm still considering.

UDP usually has a hard time understanding my Fe jokes and sentence structure, so Fe role makes sense to me.

Maybe he understands them but doesn't find them funny. You can't assume that just because someone doesn't react to jokes made by a Fe ego type doesn't mean they don't value Fe. Take me for example. I'm a huge fan of sardonic wit. This on some level requires a dry, laconic style of speech, something of which Fe egos are not only incapable, but to which they may actually be averse. Does this mean I'm not a Fe/Ti valuing type. Of course not.

Always talking about bettering himself is Si to me.

I want to better myself, and I often do, with concrete results. As an SLE, I devalue Si. LIEs are also known for their desire to improve themselves, and they have a Si PoLR. I don't think you can attribute a desire for self-development to Si.

I talk to him tons about spirituality and working on toning down sexual references to women. From what I can see, he seeks explanations in both these fields and enjoys extrapolating on available information in these fields. Fi imo.

I went through a spiritual phase when I was twelve, up until I was seventeen. Does that make me Fi? And how is sexual referencing anything to do with Fi? Far more Fe, if anything to do with functions.

Overall, I believe that ESTj makes the most sense for him.

And what a fine argument from a Te PoLR. Sorry if I offended you, I just don't buy any of this. Nothing you've said points towards LSE. Unless, of course, you remove "overall". Then the whole thing would make sense; it would be a collection of random thoughts about UDP.

This is also the reason I do not talk to you, implied, nor have I sought out your opinion via pm or other means, to ask what you think in regard to the ethical or spiritual dilemmas I come across.

Mm, Fe valuing, he believes she is.

Kamingir, at least in our discussions, has strong beliefs and is open to serious discussion about them, which is what I look for. I value the sincerity and significance he places on these values, and that is why I feel comfortable talking about persona relationships with him.

This makes no sense socionically. How could you have such a strong relationship with an SEI, your supervisee?

[ScarlettLux]

If you put any stock into the effects of quadra values on individual elements (which is closely related to but not necessarily the same as +/-...) --- the ESTj's Fe role is supposed to be the Beta variety of Fe. Where as the ISTj's Fi role is supposed to be the Delta variety of Fi. Which is to say the Beta introverts front the nicities for their quadra when necessary. And the Delta extroverts relative to the rest of their quadra can handle a rowdier emotional atmosphere. Now all these types will still prefer their own quadra's ethical functions over others. But as I understand it, if they are dual-seeking – you will be reluctant to do them yourself (in comparison to role.) So an interpretation might be that the ESTj feels some need to play along with a bawdier atmosphere at times, but would really like a softer ethic (which is precisely what the INFj can help accomplish, being +Fi base and –Fe ignoring.) That said, I think UDP’s trouble with jokes could be consistent with ESTj. An ISTj in contrast might, just the opposite, come across as more tactful usually – but let loose in the right company. (This is all very speculative though..)

This is an excellent interpretation of how the functions manifest differently, bravo! Can you expound on this for other types? I mean, for instance - would an IEI also feel the need to be more Fi at times, or does this only apply to those with Fe role function, and not creative?
If so, then the role function in your eyes, is something that we feel we "need" to do, but do not inherently wish to do, right?

Using this then, an IEI would try hard at Si but wish they really didn't have to, while an SEE would try hard at Ne?

So, that try-hard label for the role function does make sense. Sorry for going off on a tangent, just attempting to understand functions more.

[Minde]

I don't like the idea that I am, for example, estranged from people like Minde and Slacker Mom, who I feel like I'm just beginning good relations with after half a year.

Could you rephrase or expand up that sentence, please? It doesn't make sense to me.

[UDP]

"Mm, Fe valuing, he believes she is."

You don't know what my current opinion of implied's type is. Her "socionics type" is irrelevant to whether I feel comfortable with discussing personal things with her.

[Ezra]

Or rather, forum behaviour indicates only a small aspect of your whole real-life personality, and is also open to much interpretation and projection by other board members trying to fill in the blanks.

Carla, you never cease to amaze me with your crisply phrased platinum nuggets of wisdom.

Could you rephrase or expand up that sentence, please? It doesn't make sense to me.

What I mean is that when I first came here and acted completely naturally, complacent with myself and my habits, Slacker Mom and yourself I felt were somewhat averse to me. Then, after four or five months (late last year), I felt like my relationship with you and Nicky was on a plus; it was growing positively. I wouldn't want to damage them just because I apparently devalue the exact opposite of what you value, and vice versa. In terms of civility, breaking down relations with you two would simply make no sense, because I like you both.

[implied]

I went through a spiritual phase when I was twelve, up until I was seventeen. Does that make me Fi? And how is sexual referencing anything to do with Fi? Far more Fe, if anything to do with functions.

idk, i was curious how this was tying into Fi as well. what i was thinking of particularly was richard dawkins, who has been typed here a few times as LSE, who is rather unashamedly atheist. on that note i suppose much like dawkins doesn't see evidence for god existing i don't see a ton of evidence for UDP being ESTj.

@scarlettlux -- i also like iFMD95's explanation of role functions in ESTjs etc. it reminds me of when zenbrat talked about ESTps being one of the more "emo" and "romantic" types which is something i suppose isn't readily associated with Fi polr either.

@carla - i do agree with you very much that forum behavior only really constitutes a slice of what the person is like IRL IRL, but take into account that really "forum behavior" is all we have to work with. i think UDP has been asked several times to make videos and such and ... forgets?

[Ezra]

"Mm, Fe valuing, he believes she is."

You don't know what my current opinion of implied's type is. Her "socionics type" is irrelevant to whether I feel comfortable with discussing personal things with her.

Yeah, but come on, you know you think she's Fe valuing.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Or rather, forum behaviour indicates only a small aspect of your whole real-life personality, and is also open to much interpretation and projection by other board members trying to fill in the blanks.

True.

Unfortunately, the assumptions can be incorrect, and from what i've seen, there's always a risk of the assumptions being turned into 'facts'

Quote:

@carla - i do agree with you very much that forum behavior only really constitutes a slice of what the person is like IRL IRL, but take into account that really "forum behavior" is all we have to work with. i think UDP has been asked several times to make videos and such and ... forgets?

If thats all you've got to go on, and you know it's not enough, why do you persist with typings which you would then know can be totally innacurate? It only serves to confuse people and doesn't help. It's possibly why you've became rather mixed up about what your own type could be.

[Minde]

What I mean is that when I first came here and acted completely naturally, complacent with myself and my habits, Slacker Mom and yourself I felt were somewhat averse to me. Then, after four or five months (late last year), I felt like my relationship with you and Nicky was on a plus; it was growing positively. I wouldn't want to damage them just because I apparently devalue the exact opposite of what you value, and vice versa. In terms of civility, breaking down relations with you two would simply make no sense, because I like you both.

Ok, that makes a little more sense. I think.

Remember, though, that there's a difference between behaving naturally, like yourself, and being immature. You can learn how to better interact with people without changing who you are. I know that you've learned a couple of things about interacting with me, for example, and that by using what you know you've made it easier for me to get along with you. I don't think you actually changed anything about your socionics type along the way (I don't think you have).


Anyway, perhaps something to keep in mind in this whole discussion is that there's a lot more to a person than socionics.

[xyz]

Ok, that makes a little more sense. I think.

Remember, though, that there's a difference between behaving naturally, like yourself, and being immature. You can learn how to better interact with people without changing who you are. I know that you've learned a couple of things about interacting with me, for example, and that by using what you know you've made it easier for me to get along with you. I don't think you actually changed anything about your socionics type along the way (I don't think you have).


Anyway, perhaps something to keep in mind in this whole discussion is that there's a lot more to a person than socionics.

Man, you have this talent of eloquently nailing something I have on the tip of my tongue but just don't have the talent for expressing.

I agree, in other words.

[implied]

If thats all you've got to go on, and you know it's not enough, why do you persist with typings which you would then know can be totally innacurate? It only serves to confuse people and doesn't help. It's possibly why you've became rather mixed up about what your own type could be.

i have volunteered information when asked for it, videos even.

[Elro]

i have volunteered information when asked for it, videos even.

That's not volunteering...

[Creepy-bg]

i have volunteered information when asked for it, videos even.

I'd like to request some videos

[hellothere]

Kamingir, at least in our discussions, has strong beliefs and is open to serious discussion about them, which is what I look for. I value the sincerity and significance he places on these values, and that is why I feel comfortable talking about persona relationships with him.

This makes no sense socionically. How could you have such a strong relationship with an SEI, your supervisee?

What I mean is that when I first came here and acted completely naturally, complacent with myself and my habits, Slacker Mom and yourself I felt were somewhat averse to me. Then, after four or five months (late last year), I felt like my relationship with you and Nicky was on a plus; it was growing positively. I wouldn't want to damage them just because I apparently devalue the exact opposite of what you value, and vice versa. In terms of civility, breaking down relations with you two would simply make no sense, because I like you both.

Doesn't the second quote from you suggest that it is possible to have a good relationship with someone, even if it "doesn't make sense socionically"? Like Minde said, there's more to a person than socionics. And I don't think UDP was trying to say anything about his or Kamangir's types when he said what you quoted.

[aestrivex]

one thing that's very interesting is how little people seem to be agreeing on the nature of pieces of this discussion.


for example, UDP told me that he didn't mind my asking, but "doesn't like to talk about his personal relationships much." other people seem to be implying very much the contrary.

[eunice]

*Don't you people ever get tired of typing someone repeatedly?*

[munenori2]

one thing that's very interesting is how little people seem to be agreeing on the nature of pieces of this discussion.


for example, UDP told me that he didn't mind my asking, but "doesn't like to talk about his personal relationships much." other people seem to be implying very much the contrary.

I guess there's no substitute for the context of the discussion. Maybe the people he is more open with are more likely to talk about relationships themselves, to which he can respond with advice or personal stories of his own at his own discretion. I like to think I don't do too much out-and-out grilling of his personal life.

[Ezra]

Oh, the joy of constantly repeating shit.

[Mediator Kam]

Doesn't the second quote from you suggest that it is possible to have a good relationship with someone, even if it "doesn't make sense socionically"? Like Minde said, there's more to a person than socionics. And I don't think UDP was trying to say anything about his or Kamangir's types when he said what you quoted.

I mean really Ezra, it's very easy to have a relationship with someone, especially online.
Because of my cultural background, I have strong Fi which I enjoy discussing, and UDP enjoys it as well. Te online doesn't bother me much, and our discussions focus on Si and Fi.

I see no problem with our relationship socionically.

[Creepy-bg]

I mean really Ezra, it's very easy to have a relationship with someone, especially online.
Because of my cultural background, I have strong Fi which I enjoy discussing, and UDP enjoys it as well. Te online doesn't bother me much, and our discussions focus on Si and Fi.

I see no problem with our relationship socionically.

NO! THERE ARE NO OTHER REASONS BEYOND SOCIONICS! IF YOU HAVE STRONG Fi YOU ARE GAMMA OR DELTA! PERIOD!

[Ezra]

NO! THERE ARE NO OTHER REASONS BEYOND SOCIONICS! IF YOU HAVE STRONG Fi YOU ARE GAMMA OR DELTA! PERIOD!