This is the thread where you explain to me how INTjs are man
I have heard people say this and i really dont get it at all.
i think this type is the most concerned with being upfront, good or bad, about where they stand on any given issue, if there is something important at stake.
For example. i will not enter a conversation if i think the discussion will be useless, but this is not manipulation to me. I think the INTj is exceedingly careful what they say is accurate.
*accurate, in the sense of not misleading.
mmm... however, i can see how sometimes an INTj would resort to manipulation.
while it is true that INTjs are painstakingly accurate (i catch myself from saying 'never' or 'always' - replace them with 'usually', 'most' etc. ) when they want to get a message across, there are some situations where some INTjs may turn to manipulation. could be, that he/she thinks that an immensely important outcome needs to take place, and it cannot happen without some manipulation of people involved. it would be unpalatable, but it will be done. especially if the INTjs thinks it can be done with a high probability of success. and it will be done well, to a strategy thought out beforehand, with likelihoods of success predicted for the various possible scenarios.
for example, there are times when i know how saying something in a slightly different way, or omitting something, etc. could cause a specifically different reaction in someone than if i were to say it exactly as it is. especially with people i know well. it's possible that there is a situation where i would judge it better for that person, or an external situation, if i were to cause him/her to react in a certain way, and he/she won't react in that way if i take my normal approach of accurate truthfulness.
then i'd have to make an ethical decision - whether the outcome that i need or want is so important as to warrant risking/spending some of my credibility and bending a key trait in myself. and whether this would signal a serious inconsistency in myself. etc. if i decide to give up some of my precious integrity for that something, then what i'd be doing is manipulation.
incidentally, when INTjs manipulate, it is probably intentional and consciously done, as opposed to other types who may not realise they're doing it.
i dont see how your example is an example of something HAVING to be done. Anyhow you have clearly talked about what people mean by INTj manipulation. I say this because noone has offered an alternate account.
Originally Posted by Kirana
So are you saying that "I did not have sex with that woman" is manipulative? Maybe this is odd, but I just feel that an INTj would be the type most unlikely to LIE when asked any question. I just feel like INTjs, like ENTjs, are horrible liars, if not for the goodness of their hearts, for the way they cannot tolerate disorder (and perhaps, moral congruency). The situations in which there is some "spin" are not something where that spin would not be assumed (knowledge is where the morality hangs imo)--such as, in my example, the middle of a public scandal. BTW, im not saying he's INTj. But, an INTj could quite possibly think that other people are too stupid to complete a task right, but i still think that they'd TELL you.
also. the last statement. Thats kind of my point as well Kirana. Its an ethical decision. The INTj will consider it as such, he is concerned with being upfront. It WILL be unpalatable. and it will continue to be so if he chooses to be manipulative with all this knowledge.
This is what i meant to say.
that was me.
Oh, and by the way, i dont buy that other types dont know what they do when they lie. Every lie is intentional.
I think they might even become physically ill if they know that they've been being deceptive. They might become kinda despondent and wish they could back everything up, and try again completely straightforward with everyone. They recognize the simplicity in honesty, and probably will not out-and-out lie. They might sidestep the truth, to protect themselves, but even that they're going to feel really badly about, and want to correct.
. . . or maybe all that is just me, and I may not even be INTj
msk - that's what i mean by premeditated and intentional. an INTj can't quite lie when they don't want to. it probably only ever happens as a premeditated lie.
i'll have to think of an example. this will take a while, since i don't meditate on manipulation regularly, but i know there are conditions under which i would, and can, manipulate people.
k, i haven't found one scenario, but discojoe's ... 'interesting' story is something like a scenario whereby an INTj would resort to manipulation. notice that the INTj doesn't go, ok you need to give up your omnipotence because etc etc - coz he knows his friend won't do it if he uses that approach. notice he's completely aware of his manipulative plan, that there is a result he is aiming for. that he believes the result to be important enough that he would resort to subterfuge to obtain it.
i really should find a more commonplace example, though.