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    High Priestess glam's Avatar
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    Default Sharing personal information for Beta types

    wikisocion on the beta quadra
    Talking about personal matters in a group is not something that Betas generally do. It's viewed almost as treachery when something that was told in a one-on-one conversation is retold in front of a group, or when someone criticizes another person's traits in front of the group. Betas believe such things should be told in private and should not be used to embarrass or belittle a friend.
    heard about this exact thing tonight when talking to an SLE, my brother. he was telling me about a certain situation in which personal information he told to somebody somehow reached someone that it shouldn't have. he said, "when I say something like that to somebody, I expect them to understand that I'm telling it to them in confidence." then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

    do other betas relate? actually, this seems like something ANYONE would value, at least to me; I can't see why you wouldn't? however, it was written in the beta section for a reason, so what exactly is it about this behavior that makes it "beta"? what do other non-beta types think of this?

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    I relate to the above.

    I think why it is "particularly beta", well, it makes me think of how LSIs sometimes just say "you don't need to know this", etc. There is a big deal about who knows what, and what level you are on, and how much you know.

    What I do not relate to is this:

    then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)
    I don't like the idea of a system or it controlling me or information.
    I understand it is necessary somewhat, but as much as possible, I prefer to avoid that and just let the facts be known, and everything just be straight out, unaltered.

    It is not something I usually feel, when information is divulged - that command is lost, that the system is out of control.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

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    I'm not sure why or if it is beta, but I very much relate to it.
    It's not just the power of information for me though, it's about trust. If someone realizes something about me and tells people I don't mind it that much, but if it's something I told him, then it bugs me a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I think why it is "particularly beta", well, it makes me think of how LSIs sometimes just say "you don't need to know this", etc. There is a big deal about who knows what, and what level you are on, and how much you know.
    Oh boy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoSpirit View Post
    If someone realizes something about me and tells people I don't mind it that much, but if it's something I told him, then it bugs me a lot.
    More on this, even though I'm not sure what socionics value it can have, I have been in this situation a few times:

    You, Tizio and Caio are good friends. Tizio has a secret he doesn't want to share with anyone, maybe he's in love with Sempronia, maybe he's gay, whatever.
    Knowing Tizio, both you and Caio have some suspicions, gathered clues and maybe discussed it in Tizio's absence.
    Tizio one day tells you that he is in fact in love with Sempronia.
    Caio then wants to discuss the matter with you, animated by the usual friendly concern for Tizio's well being... what do you do?

    Saying "I don't wanna/shouldn't talk about it" is like saying "yes, he told me, he loves her and I can't tell you". Silly hypocrisy.
    So usually I lie, I say what I would have said if Tizio hadn't shared the truth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    heard about this exact thing tonight when talking to an SLE, my brother. he was telling me about a certain situation in which personal information he told to somebody somehow reached someone that it shouldn't have. he said, "when I say something like that to somebody, I expect them to understand that I'm telling it to them in confidence." then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

    do other betas relate? actually, this seems like something ANYONE would value, at least to me; I can't see why you wouldn't? however, it was written in the beta section for a reason, so what exactly is it about this behavior that makes it "beta"? what do other non-beta types think of this?

    I relate. I think it is trechery. I think its also unsophisticated, manipulative, lazy, rude, etc. I think its sophisticated to know what to do when, to have self restraint, to keep secrets. I think when someone reveals a secret like that its because they want to humiliate you or get power over you. I think some types like Deltas like to gang up on people, and with the reporter as a member of the quadrant, will have a tendancy to tell people's secrets.
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    Quote Originally Posted by glamourama View Post
    heard about this exact thing tonight when talking to an SLE, my brother. he was telling me about a certain situation in which personal information he told to somebody somehow reached someone that it shouldn't have. he said, "when I say something like that to somebody, I expect them to understand that I'm telling it to them in confidence." then he went on about how his whole system and command of this certain situation (which involved many people) was ruined, because of this one betrayal of information, and how angry it made him (both because of being betrayed that way, and of losing his perfect command of everything.)

    do other betas relate? actually, this seems like something ANYONE would value, at least to me; I can't see why you wouldn't? however, it was written in the beta section for a reason, so what exactly is it about this behavior that makes it "beta"? what do other non-beta types think of this?
    Me and eliphalet can really relate to this. We tell our other infp friend everything and he basically blurts out stuff about eliphalet's private life. It really gets me worked up because there are just certain things that you shouldn't mention to accquaintances or to anyone outside of our close circle of friends. Also I'm having problems with an ESTp. I thought he was private but apparently he told some mutual friends about this conversation we had and I'm very embarrassed to be around them since I actually opened up about my feelings. Oh well what can you do..
    ENFj Ni subtype 3w4
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    The system of command is important to me. Without privacy of certain knowledge, or 'elite information', then it is hard to have certain power over people. For example, someone put you in his ignore list but you do not have access to this information. You simply want to know the state of relationship that person has with you, and thus you ask a friend if that person has you on his ignore list. You expect the person to be diplomatic, and not say "TheBlueBlade wants to know if you blocked him." That makes the person think that you are actually concerned that the person is not ignoring you. Once the person thinks that you are concerned about the relationship, then that person immediately thinks that he has power over you, and that his putting you on his ignore list is actually affecting you. That makes it harder for you to turn the tables or redeem the relationship as compared to when he did not think that he had power over you in the first place, even if he had no power over you at all.

    It's all in the mind. To be powerful you must have things that people want. In this particular case, it is information. Beta is about power, being the best, and being strong. Having elite information takes you one step closer.
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    How does this compare to delta, is what I am wondering.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    How does this compare to delta, is what I am wondering.
    One ENFp friend will always tell his friends everything he has been told.
    One INFj friend apparently likes people based on how much she feels she can trust them, and the ability to keep secrets seems to be the main component of this trust. I can't really say she keeps secrets herself though.
    LSI

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    I wrote that paragraph in the beta section and I'm glad people agree with it.

    I reached that conclusion when I had to spend a lot of time with deltas. There is no line between personal vs in group. I had problems with the ENFp in the group and I confronted him in a private conversation. I asked if he thinks badly of me because that's how I interpret his comments. And we talked it through and it was all good. It was just a misunderstanding. But a week later in the group, he said something negative and I smiled and automatically decided he was just joking (because now I knew he doesn't have a problem with me and it was just a joke) and then he cheerfully added, "and don't bother getting offended by that again because I didn't mean it in a bad way." And now that DID offend me. The ISTp and the INTp looked at me to see my reaction a bit and I felt so betrayed. How dare he say that in public like that. Jerk. I will never confront him about anything ever again. I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that.

    After that I started to hear more and more about deltas talking about personal problems in a group setting. I know one ESTj who would talk about many personal stories to half-strangers just to get Fi. Also, there was an ISTp (maybe INTp) who once commented how my boots don't look good with my black pants and how I should never wear it like that. It would have been very nice of her, if it hadn't been in front of my new boyfriend. In front of other people it was just plain mean. But obviously that kind of comments are normal in her quadra.

    In a purely beta group I have never seen people talk about personal things. Yeah, sure, some things that we talk about seem like "personal topics" to people of other quadras. It is perfectly okay and normal to joke about "You're still together with that guy? haha, why?!", but it's not really typical to talk about deep inner emotions. Reply "hahaha, what can I say, - Love!" is better than, "I really love him." The second comment is reserved for a private conversation.

    BTW, I don't have the chain of command thing either, but I have a very clear personal vs public distinction. When people discuss personal things in public, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.
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    Ah yeah, I notice that Betas never talk about their personal relationships and such.
    That always seemed weird to me, but what can I say.
    From an outside perspective, I want to clarify that I mean no harm when I ask question about it (and that I would be pissed too if an ISTp were to make such a comment in front of people).
    I understand Kristiina's take on the issue, but I don't understand other poster's take.
    What's this stuff about command? Do you really think some information about one random thing a person did makes any difference in a world of 6 billion people...?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    I wrote that paragraph in the beta section and I'm glad people agree with it.

    I reached that conclusion when I had to spend a lot of time with deltas. There is no line between personal vs in group. I had problems with the ENFp in the group and I confronted him in a private conversation. I asked if he thinks badly of me because that's how I interpret his comments. And we talked it through and it was all good. It was just a misunderstanding. But a week later in the group, he said something negative and I smiled and automatically decided he was just joking (because now I knew he doesn't have a problem with me and it was just a joke) and then he cheerfully added, "and don't bother getting offended by that again because I didn't mean it in a bad way." And now that DID offend me. The ISTp and the INTp looked at me to see my reaction a bit and I felt so betrayed. How dare he say that in public like that. Jerk. I will never confront him about anything ever again. I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that.
    Yeah. Why is that?
    It is completely foreign to me. I'm not saying it is a beta, or beta NF trait, but I talked an EIE through this last night. She had totally off the mark assumptions about someone, and even when I explained things (heavy Te facts), it was a look of disappointment.

    What happened was, she had negative thoughts about someone, but they were bordering... well they were verging into other forms of dislike (essentially she was drawing conclusions about someone because of things like socio-economic status). When in fact, there really was only misinterpretation about the person, because the EIE had little experience with said person.

    The EIE may have initially been offset because I "corrected her" - in that I explained thoroughly and properly why the said person acted that way. I did this on two separate matters that night. The way she came up to her own conclusions was very odd, like a snowball affect of "well if this person is bad in this way, it must mean they are bad in other ways" - sort of just coming up with ideas that would support the desired emotional state (angst, dislike), rather than looking at what was really going on.

    She was stunned at first but eventually she just seemed sort of like "well, ok, I see what you mean".


    Anyways, "I really would rather secretly hate him for silly misinterpreted comments than ask what he really meant by that." - that seems very troublesome to me.


    After that I started to hear more and more about deltas talking about personal problems in a group setting. I know one ESTj who would talk about many personal stories to half-strangers just to get Fi. Also, there was an ISTp (maybe INTp) who once commented how my boots don't look good with my black pants and how I should never wear it like that. It would have been very nice of her, if it hadn't been in front of my new boyfriend. In front of other people it was just plain mean. But obviously that kind of comments are normal in her quadra.
    Nah I'm not so sure about that. I don't do things like that. Fe polr types probably would think its more funny, but I don't think that is a delta trait. Would you really see an INFj coming up to you and belittling your footwear? I doubt it. They are often so insecure about their own image they'd not be able to bear it if they did that to you.

    In a purely beta group I have never seen people talk about personal things. Yeah, sure, some things that we talk about seem like "personal topics" to people of other quadras. It is perfectly okay and normal to joke about "You're still together with that guy? haha, why?!", but it's not really typical to talk about deep inner emotions. Reply "hahaha, what can I say, - Love!" is better than, "I really love him." The second comment is reserved for a private conversation.
    For me, I just don't really get the idea of talking about surface level stuff or interacting just to have a good time. I can do that for a while but it just gets boring, because its like I am not doing anything substantial at all.

    That being said, I like having beta NF friends because they are better at acclimatizing people. Foreplay has its uses I guess. I just don't like having to do too much buttering up.



    BTW, I don't have the chain of command thing either, but I have a very clear personal vs public distinction. When people discuss personal things in public, it makes me feel very uncomfortable.
    Hmm - but how are you with your family?
    Are you more open just amongst your family members? I get the public stuff, but one EIE is very upfront about things - within her family.


    Yet it does make sense, because, another EIE I work with is always, always, always about the mood and environment of people around him, and never really talks about anything personal. It seems phony to me because it is like he is just reacting to whoever is around him, rather than really saying anything. It's like he's just trying to maximize the emotional effect, mostly trying to get people to smile or inspire them. He doesn't ever talk about himself unless its a joke to get other people to laugh, or a sly comment.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    First of all, this is a wonderful thread...
    ...so I'll do my best to give you my own perspective because I have trouble keeping up with all the other posts

    This is a favorite subject of introspection for me, so I'm confident in saying that I keep information close for fear of looking weak or desperate. I've been very hurt in the past when personal information, expressed in private, was made public. I tend to keep most personal information, especially in terms of relationships, to myself. Who I have my eye on, the amount of interest I have in those around me, the nature of my relationships, or if I'm looking for a relationship. Even my family knows very little about my personal life. I won’t date people who are close with many of my friends for fear of them spreading gossip about me or our relationship. Also, please, please don’t try hooking me up with a close friend of yours (unless she is Keira Knightley)…

    I tend to horde the personal information others give me. This information doesn't necessarily have to be obtained through the express meaning of another's words, but is also picked up through the intricacies of another's speech; listen, and it is possible to learn a lot about the fears and desires of others. I do this mostly because I love observing others--trying to figure out how they think. However, ensconcing myself in the information others willingly provide is also a defense mechanism I've honed over the years.

    It is very important to maintain good relations with those I know, but there are always people who step over certain boundaries or just flat out don't like you. So I tend to not give these potential enemies information they can use to hurt me, and I store information on these potential enemies that, at least from my perspective, will hurt them most. And yes, if provoked, I will go for the jugular.

    This may make me seem like a very calculating, paranoid individual, so I must say that I've not been in any major fight where I have done the above in a very, very long time. I like to believe that I have the foresight to steer myself away from such messy situations.

    I genuinely like people, and for all, I hope the best. In an ideal world I wouldn't have to make use of the above process. So, quite simply, this process has become another mechanism I use to stay sane around you all

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