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Thread: INTJ and ESFJ conflicts

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    Default INTJ and ESFJ conflicts

    I find it interesting that INTJs and ESFJs supposedly have a dual relation.

    I'm an INTJ and the eldest of 5 daughters. One of my sisters is an ESFJ. We have a very chummy relationship most of the time (aside from my occasional annoyance at her bubbliness, and her sensitivity to my critism). And yet I fight with her more than with any of the others.

    The most interesting part of this is that all our conflicts have the exact same structure, which we have noticed and analyzed even before discovering our types. Originally, neither of us knew why the other, or even her self, reacted the way she did. Now that we are recognizing the problems (usually me, :wink: ), we are getting better at stopping the conflict before things escalate, but it still happens.

    I offer this post simply for the intellectual benefit of whomever is interested. Though, if anyone thinks, by my discriptions, that I've got our types wrong, let me know.

    *****

    It starts with a simple disagreement, usually about how something should be done.

    We both try to explain to the other why we think or feel our position is better, usually I start to overpower her with my reasoning(whether actually right or not).

    If she doesn't understand or still doesn't agree, she will usually try to end the discussion by saying that she no longer cares who is right. This is unacceptable to me. I am convinced that if I can explain my position in terms that she can understand, she will agree with me. Therefore, I continue to reason with her. At this point, if not before, I unconciously raise my voice in volume and pitch in (what I perceive as) my zealous defense of logic.

    She, sensitive soul that she is, interprets my manner as anger (she doesn't mind discussion but hates conflict) and, believing that "a soft answer turns away wrath", collects herself and asks me calmly, "Why are you yelling?"

    This drives me to a rage as absolutly nothing else can. In my mind, I was not angry, not even annoyed; simply excited. I sincerely want to help her understand, or even to agree with her if she can convince me that her way makes the most sense. Her inauthentic calmness and (what I interpret as) her accusation that I am being unreasonable incites my normally even temper to an indignant fury. (I use these strong words relatively. I almost never get angry, so this incediary reaction feels very strong.)

    She now has the upperhand because I can't argue that I'm not yelling, since I now am. She then tries to stop the conflict again by stating that the conversation is over. But I refuse to let her off that easily, feeling like she has forced me in the "bad guy" position when I really had no malignant intentions.

    At this point, my ISTP sister usually intervenes. As to the original argument, she usually agrees with my logic (HA! :wink: ). But then she reminds me that our ESFJ sister is sensitive to my voice and expression, and that my enthusiasm can indeed come across as anger or annoyance at incomprehension.

    Things cool down, we compromise if possible, and neither of us holds the incident against the other. We go back to peaceful coexistence until the exact same situation occurs again.

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    How interesting. I have had the exact same dynamic with a family member. She is ESTJ and I am ENTP. I think it could be SJ-NT dynamics rather than dual dynamics. SJ's and NT's notoriously disagree and their world views are almost oppositional! SJ types wanting to do things according to tradition and social norms, and NT's always challenging the status quo.
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    Leo is right though. NT's usually do suck at relationships. Best to learn from the other types!
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    Default Re: INTJ / ESFJ Conflicts

    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    I find it interesting that INTJs and ESFJs supposedly have a dual relation.

    I'm an INTJ and the eldest of 5 daughters. One of my sisters is an ESFJ. We have a very chummy relationship most of the time (aside from my occasional annoyance at her bubbliness, and her sensitivity to my critism). And yet I fight with her more than with any of the others.

    The most interesting part of this is that all our conflicts have the exact same structure, which we have noticed and analyzed even before discovering our types. Originally, neither of us knew why the other, or even her self, reacted the way she did. Now that we are recognizing the problems (usually me, :wink: ), we are getting better at stopping the conflict before things escalate, but it still happens.

    I offer this post simply for the intellectual benefit of whomever is interested. Though, if anyone thinks, by my discriptions, that I've got our types wrong, let me know.

    *****

    It starts with a simple disagreement, usually about how something should be done.

    We both try to explain to the other why we think or feel our position is better, usually I start to overpower her with my reasoning(whether actually right or not).

    If she doesn't understand or still doesn't agree, she will usually try to end the discussion by saying that she no longer cares who is right. This is unacceptable to me. I am convinced that if I can explain my position in terms that she can understand, she will agree with me. Therefore, I continue to reason with her. At this point, if not before, I unconciously raise my voice in volume and pitch in (what I perceive as) my zealous defense of logic.

    She, sensitive soul that she is, interprets my manner as anger (she doesn't mind discussion but hates conflict) and, believing that "a soft answer turns away wrath", collects herself and asks me calmly, "Why are you yelling?"

    This drives me to a rage as absolutly nothing else can. In my mind, I was not angry, not even annoyed; simply excited. I sincerely want to help her understand, or even to agree with her if she can convince me that her way makes the most sense. Her inauthentic calmness and (what I interpret as) her accusation that I am being unreasonable incites my normally even temper to an indignant fury. (I use these strong words relatively. I almost never get angry, so this incediary reaction feels very strong.)

    She now has the upperhand because I can't argue that I'm not yelling, since I now am. She then tries to stop the conflict again by stating that the conversation is over. But I refuse to let her off that easily, feeling like she has forced me in the "bad guy" position when I really had no malignant intentions.

    At this point, my ISTP sister usually intervenes. As to the original argument, she usually agrees with my logic (HA! :wink: ). But then she reminds me that our ESFJ sister is sensitive to my voice and expression, and that my enthusiasm can indeed come across as anger or annoyance at incomprehension.

    Things cool down, we compromise if possible, and neither of us holds the incident against the other. We go back to peaceful coexistence until the exact same situation occurs again.
    OK, around here I may get railed for this, but are you MBTI INTJ or Socionics INTJ? The relationships are incredibly different depending on which you are. If she is MBTI ESFJ, then she is socionics ESFJ. If you are MBTI INTJ, then you are Socionics INTP. I don't think I've seen your posts before so I wanted to clear up that confusion if it exists.

    Now, if you are MBTI INTJ, and therefore Socionics INTP, the information relations would be of Conflict....if you are MBTI INTP and Socionics INTJ, they would be of Duality. Both have conflicts, but they're natures are completely different. Being Socionics INTJ I have had close relations with both ESFP and ESFJ so I may be able to provide some insight.

    The person I have argued most with in my entire life is close family, and I love her, and she is ESFP, conflict relations. After a few years and maturity(mostly on my end), we learned that our arguments went nowhere. When I get in an argument with the ESFP, I use introverted logic manipulation, of couse, using extraverted intuition to find facts to back my arguments. She uses extraverted sensing to decide she wants to win the argument and finds facts to throw in my face, and uses introverted feeling creatively to emotional manipulate me. Both of us don't see the other side correctly, so I see her emotional manipulation as pure emotional manipulation to win the argument. I'm guessing she sees me as cold, uncaring, and unemotional. My logic doesn't work on her, although it changes her arguments. When she starts to cry, I see it as a last attempt to win the argument. Every argument we try to complete ends in me getting stuck in my (valid) logic and she ends up crying not understanding why I won't bend(because it violates my logic, I won't give up the truth to pacify). After I learned about Socionics, I first of all learned to avoid arguments and try to fein letting her win, trying to let her hear what she wants.

    Now the arguments I have with another close relationship(ESFJ) were never arguments, it was mostly her whining and me still being stuck in the correctness of my logic. Most of the time, either introverted logic would give out for her extraverted feeling, or vice versa. Sometimes we still wouldn't agree, but our voices would never ever raise and we would not hold it against each other. It would come up again, one of us would raise the point and it may be resolved at that point or a disagreement would occur for about 2 minutes of us explaining our point to each other and then naturally putting it off till later. I once told this girlfriend of mine "it doesn't feel like we have a real relationship, we never fight", way before I became interested in Socionics. I suppose a Socionics INTP may see the ESFJ how I see the ESFP...purely emotional manipulative, in another way. ESFJ's base their argument in extraverted feeling, then using introverted sensing to change their mood to however they want which usualy amounts to whining about something, something I don't mind, in fact I'm slightly drawn to, but I'm sure would drive a Socionics INTP crazy.

    Another possibility is that you are Socionics INTJ and she is not Socionics ESFJ. I wouldn't jump to the conclusion she is Socionics ESFP, she could be something else, but your description reminds me very much of my experience with pure conflict relations.

    Another possibility is that my experiences between myself(Socionics INTJ) and Socionics ESFJ(about three so far) have been of a different nature due to personality. I doubt this one tho, not to exclude the possibility.

    It seems like you like each other, but end up in arguments that you both can't seem to win peacefully. This reminds me very much of Conflict relations.

    Take my writings as you will, they are trying to fit your relations with your sister into the Socionics relationship framework as I've come to learn it, and could be explained by other factors(other type's influence) or Socionics being completely made up. However I personally doubt it.

    Once different I've noticed between ESFJs and ESFPs I've known(about 6 in total) is that when an ESFP comes home, they like to keep talking about how they 'got the best' of their boss, other people, etc, how they won arguments. When ESFJs come home, they tend to complain how hard they've worked(usually true) against impossible demands (to get sympathy). I tend to like listening to ESFJs come home from work, but ESFPs coming home from work I tend to zone out because I really don't care. A Socionics INTP may feel the opposite about these...they may find the ESFJ's complaining self-centered and useless, and find the ESFP's arguments that day compeling. It is the nature of the dual seeking function.

    I would really appriciate comments from anyone....

    Hope that helps.
    zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

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    I am curious how you measured the types.
    If according to MBTI or Keirsey Temperament Sorter, then either you have chance to be INTP in socionics, or your sister has chance to be ESFP in socionics. Moreover, INTJs according to Keirsey often proved to be SENSORY, not intuitive types in Socionics.
    www.socioniko.net is no longer my site.

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    To detirmine our types we both took a test at humanmetrics.com; I think it might be based on MB.

    I'll admit that this J/P thing makes me unsure (I stayed up until 2:30am the night I discovered it, trying to figure out which I was.), but the Socionics descriptions for INTJ really seem to fit me better than those for INTP. On the other hand, Keirsey's Mastermind seemed to fit me too, which you are saying is INTP(?). Urgh! I had to not think about Socionics, etc, for a day or so because it was driving me crazy. I usually tend to analyze my own thought processes and all this makes it worse.

    It's hard to be sure about my sister, since I can't see inside her head.
    Some things I've noticed about her:
    - Her thinking is very concrete, she always needs an example to understand something abstract. e.g. I had to explain every single question on the type test. (I guess that's an SF thing.)
    - She loves to organize and design things. (Main reason for thinking she's a J)
    - She likes to help people resolve their conflicts and make things fair, but is worried that they will get mad at her for getting involved.

    I really think that I am an INTJ, but that nagging doubt is still there. However, I see that that question has been discussed repeatedly here, so I won't rehash it.
    I read the Socionics descriptions of ESFJ and ESFP and think it is possible that my sister is ESFP.

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    XcaliburGirl:
    The whole J/P thing is a big mess, and I had the same exact problem when I first looked into Socionics and MBTI(at the same time). You'll notice that MBTI says INTP means Introverted Thinking, Extraverted Intuition type, while Socionics called INTJ the Introverted Thinking, Extraverted Intuition type. To compound that, the confusion has created lots of people thinking they are types they are not, adding further to the confusion. You may want to read these articles:
    http://www.socionics.com/advan/mbti.htm
    http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm

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    Thanks. After reading (or rereading, I think I saw one of those before) those two articles, I really am convinced that I am INTj.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    I think INTps (MBTI INTJs) hate ESFjs pretty bad.

    Are you sure you are not confusing INTJ with INTj?

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    the reason i ask is because from all the dual pairs in the Socion, INTjs and ESFjs seem to be the most cohesive.

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    Okay, I think I have figured it out. I think I had my sister mistyped.

    Regardless of MBTI, I am Socionics INTj and I think she is ESFp.

    This really clears things up for me since, just going by the descriptions, I can see myself getting along with an ESFj and couldn't imagine a dual relationship being so exasperating. Also, my sister has a force of will ( , I guess) that the ESFj doesn't seem to have.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Yes ESFps love to boss people around. ESFjs are more diplomatic... but they also can be overbaring with their Fe.

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    ESFps like to order people around to do their dirty work like the queen bee.

    ESFjs would rather do the work themselves, and they can do work for three or four people. They are a dynamic type and very energetic.

    In communication ESFjs like to bargain and negotiate.

    ESFps hardly ever say please.

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    I am myself becoming more like an ESFp (of course what I think are the good aspects of an ESFp).

    Must be why I don't get with INTjs so well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    the reason i ask is because from all the dual pairs in the Socion, INTjs and ESFjs seem to be the most cohesive.
    That's interesting. What makes this dual more cohesive?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    the reason i ask is because from all the dual pairs in the Socion, INTjs and ESFjs seem to be the most cohesive.
    That's interesting. What makes this dual more cohesive?
    Perhaps it's because INTjs and ESFjs are both alpha quadra, and dislike conflict. I've often wondered what other people or types find an ideal relationship, where two duals can have arguments and enjoy it...a weird idea for me. I personally have never seen two duals in a long term relationship, except for an INTj and an ESFj, but I don't know a lot of older people. I wouldn't say they are more cohesive...well I really don't know, I haven't seen a lot of dual couples enough to comment. I think other types like conflict sometimes. It's a strange concept for me to understand.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LK
    I am myself becoming more like an ESFp (of course what I think are the good aspects of an ESFp).

    Must be why I don't get with INTjs so well.
    LK you seem to have a very ENTP quality to you. That's the impression I get.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blaze
    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymous
    the reason i ask is because from all the dual pairs in the Socion, INTjs and ESFjs seem to be the most cohesive.
    That's interesting. What makes this dual more cohesive?
    ESTps feel much better adopted in the modern world than INFps, so ESTps don't feel they really need INFps which gives the more walk away power, and creates an intimidating atmosphere for the INFp. As a result INFps prefer to go it alone, or find a partner who is more dependant on them.

    On the other hand ESFjs' and INTjs' adaptational weaknesses in today's world are equal and proportionate, so both realize that neither can survive well without the other.

    ESFj is very industrious, good housekeeper, and good cook, good negotiator, very social, has a lot of enthusiasm.

    INTj is a good manipulator, able to achieve high status in the scientific circles due to his "iron head", and therefore is a better bread winner than the slightly airheaded ESFj. But INTj is not good at handling people and managing the household chores.

    Unfortunately as a result the main purpose of a romantic relationship -- which is being one another's playful partners is lacking. It turns into a marriage of convenience based on complimentary talents and weaknesses...

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    Quote Originally Posted by admin
    LK you seem to have a very ENTP quality to you. That's the impression I get.

    jk

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    Unfortunately as a result the main purpose of a romantic relationship -- which is being one another's playful partners is lacking. It turns into a marriage of convenience based on complimentary talents and weaknesses...
    Interesting. What makes you say that? Could you elaborate?
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
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    by definition love is supposed to be unjastifiable.
    when u stay with someone because of someone because of complimentary strengths and weaknesses it becomes more necessity than choice...

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    u have no walk away power.
    and when you both know you can't walk away
    you slowly lose respect for eachother
    without respect there can be no romantic love.

    duality is based on the theory that it takes a minimum of two people to be fully adopted
    love is a playful union between two self-suffecient people.
    so i think they clash

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    duality will work if there is a system in order which allows you to meet and date many duals
    which makes your partner less irreplaceable
    that will create some tension in the relationship that will hold the respect

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    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    Unfortunately as a result the main purpose of a romantic relationship -- which is being one another's playful partners is lacking. It turns into a marriage of convenience based on complimentary talents and weaknesses...
    Interesting. What makes you say that? Could you elaborate?
    Oh christ almighty...XcaliburGirl, LK is not an INTj so he does not know what it is like to be an INTj, and has never experienced an INTj-ESFj relationship firsthand. I have, several times, and LK's observations go against all of my first hand experience.

    Playing around like little kids with my first ESFj girlfriend was a major attraction to her, and well, it was really fun. She mentioned to me that she thought it would be romantic to go to the beach, so I took her there, and the look in her eyes I knew she was happy. It was dark, slightly rainy, and dreary, but we played around goofing around on the beach for a while. _Close_ INTjs and ESFjs typically have a very playful nature to them, at least at the infatuation stage. Another ESFj I've been friends with for a little over a month, we had a deep conversation about love and being in love, and the next day we flirted around throwing things at each other and laughing.

    (there is nothing like first hand experience)

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    One thing to add is duals(in general) are supposed to be somewhat surprisingly unstable at longer psychological distances, but at close relationships(something that typically occurs naturally with time) they are very stable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lev Kamensky
    INTj is a good manipulator, able to achieve high status in the scientific circles due to his "iron head", and therefore is a better bread winner than the slightly airheaded ESFj. But INTj is not good at handling people and managing the household chores.
    Part of this rings so true....when I lost my lighter last night, I about burned my face off trying to light a cigarette using the stove burner Right now I'm "ironing" out my work shirt in the oven due to lack of an iron. :wink:

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    Another ESFj I've been friends with for a little over a month, we had a deep conversation about love and being in love, and the next day we flirted around throwing things at each other and laughing.

    Meta, that's something, what I think really makes alfa into alfa. This childlike behaviour. I my self find my self acting really childlisly among good company and I know that ISFPs also are very young minded people, makeing jokes, which are silly.

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    I really don't get it. I write detailfully. I place facts into my postings, like the last one was. This is , what I would say, is a sign of . Sometimes I get this feeling, that I am ENTJ . Really interesting or am I just wearing a type mask?

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    Quote Originally Posted by admin
    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    Unfortunately as a result the main purpose of a romantic relationship -- which is being one another's playful partners is lacking. It turns into a marriage of convenience based on complimentary talents and weaknesses...
    Interesting. What makes you say that? Could you elaborate?
    Oh christ almighty...XcaliburGirl, LK is not an INTj so he does not know what it is like to be an INTj, and has never experienced an INTj-ESFj relationship firsthand. I have, several times, and LK's observations go against all of my first hand experience.

    Playing around like little kids with my first ESFj girlfriend was a major attraction to her, and well, it was really fun. She mentioned to me that she thought it would be romantic to go to the beach, so I took her there, and the look in her eyes I knew she was happy. It was dark, slightly rainy, and dreary, but we played around goofing around on the beach for a while. _Close_ INTjs and ESFjs typically have a very playful nature to them, at least at the infatuation stage. Another ESFj I've been friends with for a little over a month, we had a deep conversation about love and being in love, and the next day we flirted around throwing things at each other and laughing.

    (there is nothing like first hand experience)
    Thanks. I read LK's post and wanted elaboration because I couldn't see any reason why they would not be playful.

    I don't think I've had any close relationships with ESFjs, but I'm pretty sure I've met a few: people who make me feel like "a human being", as opposed to friends I've had who I like, but feel alien to. For some reason the former can cause me to act silly in public and to enjoy it, while other outgoing, fun-loving types try to force me and I resist or feel like an idiot.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    So... if they make you feel so great... why hadn't you had any close relationships with them? It seems natural for humans to want to be near what they love.

    No... that's not what I meant that they can't have fun together. I was talking about something else, which seems to have eluded you. Well nevermind.

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    Let's look at it from another angle...

    Dating is a numbers game... out of 30 potential partners... maybe 5 really like you, and maybe 1 has the attitude that you want...

    So if you are looking for a particular Socionics relation, like Dual or Activity Partner... which can be 10% of the population for example, than it becomes 1 out of 300 instead of 3 out of 30.

    So you are put at a numerical disadvantage by looking specificly for one psychological type. Therefore, you are more likely to settle for an attitude that you normally wouldn't settle for...

    I think there are some accquired charachter traits that are much more important than type in a long term relationship. These come from a person's upbringing... For example, it is very hard to live with a partner who does not have Integrity. Much harder than with one who does not have a compatible psychological type with yours. You might feel some aura or kinship of spirits, but miss the most important... (NOT to say that you are not going to find a dual partner who is interested in you and has a great attitude).

    How can we make it easier to find more duals to date? I think we might want to create a BETTER socionics dating website, that would attract tens of millions instead of thousands all across the USA. This way people could narrow the search to types that they know they get along with.

    http://socionicsdating.com/ This is the Socionics Dating website.

    http://www.match.com/ This is Match.com the most popular dating website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LevKamensky
    No... that's not what I meant that they can't have fun together. I was talking about something else, which seems to have eluded you. Well nevermind.
    Actually I think I understand now, but only agree up to a point. If a relationship is based solely on convenience and complementary traits, then it's in for trouble.

    by definition love is supposed to be unjastifiable
    without respect there can be no romantic love.
    You're contradicting yourself here. Respect needs, or one could say is, justification.

    Quote Originally Posted by LevKamensky
    So... if they make you feel so great... why hadn't you had any close relationships with them? It seems natural for humans to want to be near what they love.
    I was thinking of some one who I met only once casually at a party who had completely different interests from me (an example of complemetary traits not being enough for a relationship), it's possible he wasn't actually my dual.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Respect is not a justification it is a condition that is necessary for romantic love to live. Is oxigen a justification for life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LevKamensky
    I think there are some accquired charachter traits that are much more important than type in a long term relationship.
    Granted.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by LevKamensky
    Respect is not a justification it is a condition that is necessary for romantic love to live. Is oxigen a justification for life?
    All I'm saying is that respect MUST HAVE justification. You can't respect someone for no reason, though you could love them without respect...though probably not in a healthy romantic way.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    Quote Originally Posted by XcaliburGirl
    Quote Originally Posted by LevKamensky
    Respect is not a justification it is a condition that is necessary for romantic love to live. Is oxigen a justification for life?
    All I'm saying is that respect MUST HAVE justification. You can't respect someone for no reason, though you could love them without respect...though probably not in a healthy romantic way.
    Yes... and that justification is -- that if you don't respect them, they can walk.

    When you know he will leave or she will leave if you don't treat her with respect you are more likely to respect that person. Actually respect (as an active virtue, rather than a passive state of mind) does not need justification. It is a basic human right to be granted respect, just by virtue of bearing the human title. Respecting only those who you think can be usefull to you or those who say what you like to hear, is elitist and unegalitarian. That's why a true democrat shows respect irrespectively of age, status, or personal opinion of someone. But I've digressed. That's the realm of the ideal, but in the real world we respect those whom we fear to loose. So if you have no walk away power, because you are afraid to loose your dual -- you can guess you wouldn't be treated with much respect.

    Examples of not being respected is being nagged, or being compared to other men or women, or being ordered to do things rather than asked, or to be dished out putdowns…. Now how can love exist in an atmosphere of familiarity and resentment? It can’t. Marriage is great for the kids, but it is terrible for romance, because when you are married you think your partner is “locked in” and you consciously or unconsciously start cutting down on respect, which suffocates romance over time. Similarly, when you are with a dual, you often think they are locked in.

    That is why I propose to make Duality a more accessable item, by creating a very popular Socionics dating service. Hope it works.

    Even if you know that you can easily find another dual, your walk away power will STILL be limited by seniority. Why? The longer you know someone, the more they become a part of you. It will be just like before you discovered Socionics and Duality. All it will do is level the playing field.

    Now if we really wanted to strengthen Romance... we'd have to ban marriage. I don't think our legislators have enough uncommon sense for that.

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    I am inclined to take a different view of the matter, but frankly, I don't really have the desire to discuss it further since we seem to be having trouble understanding the other's meaning (semantics, etc. e.g. the definition of "respect" in this context) and I don't agree with your views on marriage.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    respect is the real basis for rewarding romantic relationships

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    Sorry but I can't help myself. :wink:

    The real issue here is that your view and definition of love is very different from mine. You equate love with romance. But romance is a shallow gossamer feeling. Real love is unselfish. Respect is something that is based on a person's innate worth, not the fear that they will leave if you mistreat them. This type of respect is how familiarity and resentment are avoided.
    TiNe, LII, INTj, etc.
    "I feel like I should be making a sarcastic comment right now, but you're just so cute!" - Shego, Kim Possible

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    My thoughts on marriage… Marriage hearkens back to the day when women were considered as the chattel of men, who therefore felt they needed to secure property rights over the former. Now we know better than that, we know that no human being can ever own another human being. Divorce rate is 50%, and we all know how expensive divorce is. One fourth of those who are married did not love each other prior to marriage. Another quarter fell out of love after marriage, and now live in an atmosphere of resentment but they don’t have the guts to get divorced. Others cheat on their spouse. So how is marriage not setting up a trap for yourself if you know there is a ½ chance that you’ll get divorced, and you know how unpleasant that is? Not to mention how frequent marital fraud and cuckoldry is in our society. People should stay together because they have mutual interest in one another, not because they’ve signed a contract of ownership. I’ve already mentioned how I think marriage effects romance. So draw your own conclusions.

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