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    Default Experiences with Kindred or Comparative Relations

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    Last edited by female; 07-10-2008 at 12:46 AM.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    Haha, totally cute dolphin (regarding the smilies dilemma)

    Anyway - while I can't say I know too many ILIs at close range, I can attest to the fact that they seem quite interesting to me from a distance, but I really do not think they think the same of me. I am really quite fascinated by their thought processes, and although they are very harsh sometimes, I find it funny almost, to keep prodding at them with just to see their uncomfortable/strange reactions.. or just no reactions at all. LOL.

    If I am EIE - ESE would be my comparative. That would be interesting ... I do know quite a few ESEs at closer range than ILIs. We seem to get along smoothly at first. One ESE I knew before I fell out with because she was a totally manipulative bitch (but that's entirely individual so ...) ... while others I get along splendidly with. I basically rub along fairly find individually with them, we can chat about just anything, pretty comfortable after some time. I had some trouble with another ESE, close friend of my LSI best friends... THAT was pretty sticky. I think that pointed toward my being IEI in terms of the Supervisory relationship holding true.. then again, other ESEs I know don't seem to be as paranoid as she was. Or maybe it was actually just my own paranoia ... but let's not get into that, shall we?

    All I know is, is not comfortable for me at ALL, and boring. Example: ESE teaching LSI how to knit while I just stare glumly at them.

    is not comfortable for ESE at ALL, and intimidating. Example: EIE having long, drawn out and intense discussion with LSI & LII about very themes of past, future, connections in time, mysticism .. while ESE stalks away in dismay and nurses a feeling of isolation. She probably thought I was "stealing" the dominants away from her.

    Yep, that was a pretty good summary.


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    The way I sometimes see it is you agree on the same "thing" in terms of 1st function information... and although you sense this intuitively, it's difficult to confirm it... what you say is never said in quite the right way to them, and what they say is never said in quite the right way to you... so you try to correct each other ad infinitum, when you agree on the base function presentation, but disagree on the presentation of that (or on the way you see/express it). You know you're on the same page, you just can't speak the same language about being on the same page... and also what you want to help the other with, you tend to want to use your creative function, which just happens to be their PoLR, so you can't help them. And they can't help you. So in that sense it's frustrating. But if you do use your creative function, yes, it hits their PoLR... and it can ricochet back and forth like that, getting no where.

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    Hmm.. despite all the horror stories you hear about comparative relations, I've never had any real problems with IEIs (apart from one, although that was down to her as an individual rather than her IEI-ness. I posted about that in another thread somewhere, I forget where now, but alas I digress). Basically a few years back I had quite a close IEI friend, whom I imagine was probably an Ni subtype. Yeah, we had our differences which we were both aware of, but it never really got in the way. I don't know if subtype plays a significant role in this (although I'm inclined to think it does; I'll write a bit more on this in a bit), but I've never felt threatened by Fe-creatives at all, or at least not as far as I can remember. Hmm.. I feel like there's more to say here but I can't think of anything. Anyway, about the subtypes bit, I remember aaaaages ago on this forum there was a thread about subtypes affecting relations with adjacent quadras, where people were asked to state their subtype and say, in their experience, who they got on better with out of.. I think it was illusionary and comparative vs. semi-dual and look-a-like. I can't remember exactly now, but it was something along those lines. Anyway, it was generally (based on the responses) that accepting subtypes got on better with comparatives and illusionaries, whilst creative subtypes got on better with semi-duals and look-a-likes. I'm not so sure on the illusionary/semi-dual bit but I'm pretty sure about the accepting subtypes getting on better with comparatives and the creative subtypes getting on better with look-a-likes. I think also if the subtype theory as outlined by XoX here - http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=12650 is true then that would tie in with the comparative vs. look-a-like thingy there.

    Of course it could be that I just happen to be the one in a million that gets on with my comparative and therefore none of what I wrote above makes any sense whatsoever in the real world, but who knows.
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    I do not get along well with ESTjs, ever. But that tends to be true for other non-ENTj EJs too, even if less so for ESFjs.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I think they tend to be like, you wonder how the comparative partner can be so good and clever in some things, but so blind and clumsy in others.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    The way I sometimes see it is you agree on the same "thing" in terms of 1st function information... and although you sense this intuitively, it's difficult to confirm it... what you say is never said in quite the right way to them, and what they say is never said in quite the right way to you... so you try to correct each other ad infinitum, when you agree on the base function presentation, but disagree on the presentation of that (or on the way you see/express it). You know you're on the same page, you just can't speak the same language about being on the same page... and also what you want to help the other with, you tend to want to use your creative function, which just happens to be their PoLR, so you can't help them. And they can't help you. So in that sense it's frustrating. But if you do use your creative function, yes, it hits their PoLR... and it can ricochet back and forth like that, getting no where.
    i agree with this. it's like you really "feel" them....but yet it doesn't really work. this relation is better for groups than for one on one.

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    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    How did I miss this?

    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    ........Ok, the rant's done. Anyone else have any thoughts on this? (Btw, now I'm paranoid an ISTp will come along and say "You're. Completely. Wrong. Because. Blah. Blah." or my personal favorite, "Cute, but irrelevant.")
    Why would we say that? This is actually relevent, unlike your other comment regarding me personally (which was cute, if totally pointless).

    EDITED TO ADD: I was dying to add smilies to this post. It looks so long and intimidating and boring and unpalatable. But I didn't. I was afraid someone would criticize my irrelevant way of looking at the world. So, no smilies. Just for you, ISTps.
    Well, aren't you just a little drama queen. Cute, but irrelevent.
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    Default Kindred-- 1st thread ever

    There is not a single thread on this forum exclusively devoted to Kindred relations (e.g. ENFj-ESFj.)

    I am starting a relationship with my kindred.

    Anyone ever been in one? How did it go? Pitfalls?

    All info appreciated.

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    JuJu My advice is to stay away.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    1)
    A girl who I want to date, asks me: well first tell me how tall you are?
    My reply: well I will answer that, if you first tell me how much you weigh!

    2)
    A girl I was dating said she was oh so great at sex etc, but she didn't do blowjobs.
    My reply: Oh I'm really romantic etc, I just will never take you out to dinner.

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    Darn Socks DirectorAbbie's Avatar
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    I know of two kindreds. One is my brother's boss. The other is one of the two main theatre tech people. (The other is a female ESI. I'm an actress in theatre.) He and I get along well because we both want to get things done right and we both know what we can do and what we can do better than other people. Good coworker and pleasant to be around, but not someone who I would be attracted to for more than a few minutes.

    My dad's parents were kindred. Farmers. They got along great (although he didn't appreciate her emotional talk). She (ENFp) did most of the talking. They loved each other and were great companions, but I don't know much about their relationship.

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    Abbie is so boring and rigid it's awesome instead of boring and rigid. She seems so practical and down-to-the-ground.

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    I have not been in a romantic kindred relationship, but my best friend of about 11 years is an NeTi. We had a pretty calm relationship while we were in middle and high school, it most likely was because we weren't around each other as much and had our own separate social groups since we went to different schools. I mostly dropped out of contact with her when I went off to another city for college, and I think this made I realize we really missed each other and valued each other's friendship a lot more. We used to be two out of a close group of four (the other two being FeNi and TeNi), and we were the only two really survive separation. After I came back to school down here is when the problems started.

    There were a few points of tension that caused (and sometimes still does) a lot of turbulence in our friendship. The first obvious one was attention. We both gain a lot of attention when we're in our social groups (and we've jumped through/assimilated into many) and there was also a lot of male attention on both of us. Eventually there would be a struggle for attention, one getting jealous of the other when everyone focused on one of us (we typically had groups of friends of mostly males), and that sometimes created problems.

    Another issue was that she would unintentionally hurt my feelings, and I wouldn't be outright about it. She would say things I would find callous and hurt me, but I expected her to pick up on it, which didn't happen. So when I finally exhale all that bothered me, she barely if at all remembered any of the remarks that offended me. So I've learned to be more upfront with my feelings, and she asks more often if I'm feeling alright when I'm not totally upbeat.

    Another is a supposed "objectivity" vs "subjectivity" battle which always trips us up, but I think I'm learning how to avoid this conflict. This typically has to do when I'm having relationship problems, and my friend will give me what she thinks, unbiased even though I'm her best friend and might be looking for someone to just agree with me. I treat everything with a case-by-case method, while she has a more "judicial" way of looking at situations, by an already established "objective" standard. A lot of times when I'm upset, I look for comfort and support, but I tend to feel criticized and over emotional whenever I go to her with these sorts of problems. I fear that she would feel left out as a best friend if she didn't know my going-ons and thoughts, but I can only tell her things I don't mind getting criticized on, or that could easily be shrugged off.

    But it is an overall great friendship, because we have so many common interests that don't really deal with relationships and emotions, we can stay away from these conflicts. We bounce a lot of ideas off each other and have a random sense of humor. We bring both intimacy and pleasant atmosphere whenever we have get-togethers. She also doesn't mind my advice, even inspired, because to her she feels like I've "proven" that I'm capable with people and relationship advice, and therefore finds my observations valid. It only seems to be a problem when I'm having issues, but I think it's because I don't have many valuers as friends, even fewer Delta, so I rely on her with my needs.

    I don't think I could ever consider NeTi as a viable choice for a romantic relationship, if all other things were equal besides type. For some reason, I get easily annoyed with male NeTi, and I think it's because there typically isn't any common ground between us to relate to. Female NeTi and I tend to find common interests easily and quickly, and then we connect over what I'll assume is an style of thinking and be good. Male NeTi, in my experience, whip out rather quickly, which annoys me without them realizing that I'm not liking what's going on.

    Well, that was long-winded...
    Last edited by Mattie; 05-16-2009 at 04:45 AM.

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    I found within this relation type the most difference between subtypes.

    different subtypes was more boring. Same subtypes was really enjoyable.

    I got a Kindred friend, it's always great to be with him, we're like minded, (which is great since nobody on my work enjoy's Ni) but our slightly different idea's make things even more interesting.

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    ILE - ENTp 1981slater's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post

    different subtypes was more boring. Same subtypes was really enjoyable.
    what do you mean? accepting and producing subtypes maybe? for instance ENTp - ENFp would be different subtypes and ENTp - ENFp would be both the same subtype?
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1981slater View Post
    what do you mean? accepting and producing subtypes maybe? for instance ENTp - ENFp would be different subtypes and ENTp - ENFp would be both the same subtype?
    yep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    I found within this relation type the most difference between subtypes.

    different subtypes was more boring. Same subtypes was really enjoyable.
    i have found this true, now that i am thinking about it... i seem to get along with producing subtype esfjs better than accepting subtype--but then again, i'm not drawing from a huge pool... only a couple esfjs of each subtype.

    Anyone ever dated a kindred?

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    I tried dating an ILI-Ni, but it didn't work out. His Fe-PoLR was too much for me, any Fe-related attempt by me to get him to lighten up was met with an unnatural reaction. I think romantic kindred relations involving an F-PoLR would be worse, given the emotional context.
    Heh, what's unnatural reaction?

    But that's my experience with NiFe's, I get impression that my reactions (or more like the lack of reaction) to their Fe is frequent disappoitment.
    ...the human race will disappear. Other races will appear and disappear in turn. The sky will become icy and void, pierced by the feeble light of half-dead stars. Which will also disappear. Everything will disappear. And what human beings do is just as free of sense as the free motion of elementary particles. Good, evil, morality, feelings? Pure 'Victorian fictions'.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Default Kindred relationships

    This would be the dual of your semi-dual. What are these relationships like? (i've read the descriptions out there already). Anyone have direct experience with a kindred relationship?

    I suspect my college crush was an ILE. But I'm trying to figure out what it was that he was giving me as far as functions go that made me feel that way. He would explain complicated scientific theories in a way that made it become straightforward. We basically met when we were working on problems together in a big group, this one problem had everyone stumped, but I threw out a thought that didn't seem to have anything to do with anything, and then he built on it, and then I built on it even more and we solved it! Perhaps that was Ne primary working together? Maybe what I liked about him was that he was giving me demonstrative Te that I valued even though he may not have.

    I also admired his studiousness and the beautiful way he took notes, which made studying fun, and which I ended up emulating. This was all in context with him being a very friendly outgoing, funny guy who teased girls a lot, in a really funny way. We were good friends, but at the same time with a little bit of tension.

    There was a huge cultural gap between us which would have made a relationship not feasible, but I am wondering whether that is the nature of kindred--being friends, possibly wanting to be more than friends but not being able to get past friendship so ending up not being close friends in the end.
    Enneagram: 9w1 6w5 2w3 so/sx

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    i'll tear down the sky Mattie's Avatar
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    My best friend is NeTi, so this is pretty much the relationship I know the best. It isn't a romantic relationship, but the closest you could get.

    We always have something something to talk about, and always have questions for each other. We could easily pose questions in situations, and ramble on for however long jumping from topic to topic. Neither of us really get tired of it, and we usually like to be cooking, watching a movie or documentary, or going out to a chill place like a cafe or pub to continue our talks. Whenever someone gets into a debate with us, and we're on the same side, most people feel overwhelmed since we're constantly bringing up different points and we seem to jump off of what each other says. We tend to be some sort of intellectual item, our relationship is very cerebral, and admittedly, we both like attention.

    The problem comes in when we strike on each other's fundamentals, or we're around each other for too long. It takes a lot of effort on both our parts to see things from each other's views, because we both find the other seeing things the wrong way. Even when we explain our viewpoint to one another, we just accept it as each other's viewpoint, and not very often something we'd agree to. Eventually, our similar needs start to grate on one another, we both can be high-maintenance in different ways, and the other can only take so much of it. We both want the other to accept these hang-ups about ourselves but not have the patience to deal with the other's. Concerning decision making or other long-term subjects, we also clash because of the different view-points we take. We both focus on different details and don't see the ones the other is looking at, so we get frustrated because we don't think the other is trying hard enough.

    I guess if I was to use Socionics with this relationship...

    For both of us being and valuing, and as our leading and seeking fuctions respectively, our general mode of living and going about life seems rather similar. We have no issues with flow of conversation, and even when we don't agree on something, we can generally understand that there's a certain pattern or manner that we're thinking in. We stress out about similar things and recoup in similar manners. We have similar interests and apply similar amounts of attention to them. As far as I know, we are similar students in class, though I'm generally annoyed by NeTi in my classes.

    vs manifests mostly when it comes to personal issues and beliefs, pretty much serious matters. In hindsight, it's fairly obvious that I look for and feel unsatisfied by what she says, and she looks for and feels lost about what to expect. She feels like I can be vicious and unyielding when unhappy, and I find her inconsiderate and blind at times. When it comes to an ideology we disagree on, I find her arguments impractical and inapplicable, while she finds mine inconsistent with other ideals.

    Not sure what else you're looking for, but yeah, I know a relationship with an NeTi very well
    Last edited by Mattie; 04-01-2010 at 02:46 AM.

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    Breaking stereotypes Suz's Avatar
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    Wow look.to.the.sky!! that was really helpful thanks!

    After reading that, I think probably what attracted me was the Ne-Ne working together and the fun that generated, the jumping off of each others' ideas--we definitely had a lot of that going on. I guess we never really got close enough for me to be annoyed by lack of Te from his end (though i'm still not sure if he had a lack of Te--I feel like he did demonstrate some Te). Don't know, maybe he didn't receive enough Fe from me and that may have been why we never ended up becoming too close. Probably a good thing in the long run. . .
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    INFps seem pretty cool in that many of them like talking deeply about theoretical or philosophical viewpoints, are mentally stimulating, and like to explain their unique points of view, but one thing that's really difficult in communicating with them is their tendency to not be personal enough with it, establish a respectable connection with me, stay focused. They sort of want to play around and jump to new avenues of stimulation, emotionally, and I can't always take them seriously enough. I still like them though. ISTp is easier in the long run, because there is not that PoLR tension. We don't need to always worry about who seeks what, if they're turned on by Ne for example, because that seems to fade and they go back to their normal self. We can both relate to Si/Ni at some level. It's much different with LSI or LII, because they seek out and attract Fe dominants, and then it makes me want to just get out, even though I really like the Ti dominant person. I've had experience like this, where my really good friend and I get along great, but then he started dating an ESE, and was basically intruding big time, and there could be no relationship with him and me because she was around, and he was a different person around her. Even when she would be away, her influence on him was deteriorating to the relationship, and his access to Fe was making me blank inside, and I felt a lot of irrelevancy in our conversations. I think he could sense it in me too. Anyway, getting off topic a bit, but this is still PoLR oriented, and something I feel with Fe types intruding on my hidden agenda. If you know me, you know I really can not handle Fe. It makes me extremely dizzy confused, and rather irritated, and sends me retreating into my head. Fe types have the potential to be highly disrespected by me, a very psychologically subjective bias on my behalf, and rarely I have broken down in an Fe atmosphere and expressed even lightly and calmly my own depressing emotion inside. With INFps, however, I feel basically that they can always handle what I can not, and they don't take life and these types of situations as seriously, and just say what comes to their mind without thinking so much, enjoying the moment. I appreciate this from a hidden and observant post.

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    kindred is not a great relation, imo. at first you are naturally attracted to the other person, but it becomes competitive.

    with ILE/IEE, both people compete for attention. IEE feels manipulative with the interpersonal distance....i feel like they are hot-cold, always switching up. i can't respond to this very well and it makes me uncertain as to the status of the relationship. and it's so constant it wears me out.

    i think IEE is offended by ILE's logic, since they don't think in those terms. they think relationally.

    pinochio i am mystifyied as to why you are referencing me specifically in this thread. i think agree that there is some issue with about "doing for others" or "selfishness" that is a major area of difference between alpha and delta.

    ILE

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    I generally have very few problems with ESEs. Sometimes it feels like a bit of an Fe competition, but for the most part I am able to get along well with them; one of my good friends is ESE-Si, and we have a good deal of common interests: people watching, body modification, and for some reason we have nearly identical taste in video games, despite said tastes being pretty disparate and unrelated. We are fairly different people on the outside, but we share a certain prankster-goofball solidarity and we both love to play practical jokes, mess with people's heads, etc. We love talking one on one and our best conversations are usually about our mutual friends' psychology or life situation; we both tend to take acute interests in the problems of our respective circles of friends, so sometimes we get our heads together and plot on how to help them out or what to do with them.

    The only problem I have with ESEs is that sometimes they can feel smothering, and some of them are just plain annoying. Basically I don't like to be helped with anything at all unless it feels futile, which some of them don't seem to understand. However when I able forthright, most of them are understanding. Mostly it's a case by case kind of thing, but generally I have few problems with them outside of occasional disfavorable vibes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I agree with this, and I'd add several details from my experience.

    In my relationship with that IEE, I felt continuously watched, I couldn't be myself because one little, but very important detail: it was important how much of what I was doing was for myself or for her.
    Yeah that's an IEE for you. My IEE sister is constantly, constantly trying to get others to do work for her. Everything from small things to huge things. And she'll use emotional manipulation to get you to do it. Such a shitty type! Here are some examples:
    -IEEs are slobs. My IEE sister has 4 small obnoxious dogs which shit and piss all over her entire house. In her bedroom which is their primary pissing grounds no less than 50 percent of the carpet is covered with piss, and shit is thrown in there too. So she will try to get me to help her clean the piss up after she has taken me out to a meal by using her act of kindness as leverage.
    -One time when I went to get high with an IEE we went down to his room to smoke and there were shells of nuts covering the floor of his room to the point where every square centimeter had at least one nut shell on it. There were 3 kinds of nut shells: sunflower, pistachio, and peanut shells. There were also a ton of some unknown seeds all over his floor. So anyway later that night he tried to bribe me to help him clean up all the nuts by saying he allowed me to smoke the weed with him so I owed him.
    -IEEs are lazy. My IEE sister will whine at you to do her a favor which is as minor as standing up, getting a remote control, and bringing it to her, even though you are both the same distance from the remote control. Now, who on earth would do this? No one. IEEs are so shitty!
    -I have seen an IEE lie for over 3 years that she had a job when she never had a job, but was actually bribing her grandmother out of money. She probably bribed her out of over 100 thousand dollars. She did this by using her daughters wellfare as leverage

    Some other things I have noticed:
    -IEEs own tons of worthless material items. I know an IEE who spent over 5 grand of her husbands money on clothes while he was away in Iraq, which caused their divorce. I knew an IEE who collected beanie bags. She had like fuckin 300 beanie bags, and a bunch of them cost like fifty bucks or more! I have seen an IEE who was dirt broke buy an outfit for their girl who already had a packed closet full of shitty outfits. Never give an IEE money!
    -IEEs think buying items and sharing food is the deepest expression of love. I had an IEE badger me for 3 months up until christmas on whether I was buying particular high class plastic cups for their daughter. I bought her high class plastic cups which cost like 10 bucks, and the IEE was eternally grateful.
    -One time I called out an IEE for stealing my french fries out of the burger king bag and she chased me around the house with a baseball bat! Do not come between an IEE and their food!
    Last edited by crazedrat; 04-01-2010 at 03:21 PM.

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    Pinnochio, I really liked your post . Yeah, with Delta there's always the need to reciprocate... It's funny how people can talk about these things and it's almost impossible to control that tendency themselves, regardless of how bad you know it can be.

    I like ESIs, but I sometimes get the impression that they are unnecessarily rough and drastic about things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratXII View Post
    Yeah that's an IEE for you. My IEE sister is constantly, constantly trying to get others to do work for her. Everything from small things to huge things. And she'll use emotional manipulation to get you to do it. Such a shitty type! Here are some examples:
    -IEEs are slobs. My IEE sister has 4 small obnoxious dogs which shit and piss all over her entire house. In her bedroom which is their primary pissing grounds no less than 50 percent of the carpet is covered with piss, and shit is thrown in there too. So she will try to get me to help her clean the piss up after she has taken me out to a meal by using her act of kindness as leverage.
    -One time when I went to get high with an IEE we went down to his room to smoke and there were shells of nuts covering the floor of his room to the point where every square centimeter had at least one nut shell on it. There were 3 kinds of nut shells: sunflower, pistachio, and peanut shells. There were also a ton of some unknown seeds all over his floor. So anyway later that night he tried to bribe me to help him clean up all the nuts by saying he allowed me to smoke the weed with him so I owed him.
    -IEEs are lazy. My IEE sister will whine at you to do her a favor which is as minor as standing up, getting a remote control, and bringing it to her, even though you are both the same distance from the remote control. Now, who on earth would do this? No one. IEEs are so shitty!
    -I have seen an IEE lie for over 3 years that she had a job when she never had a job, but was actually bribing her grandmother out of money. She probably bribed her out of over 100 thousand dollars. She did this by using her daughters wellfare as leverage

    Some other things I have noticed:
    -IEEs own tons of worthless material items. I know an IEE who spent over 5 grand of her husbands money on clothes while he was away in Iraq, which caused their divorce. I knew an IEE who collected beanie bags. She had like fuckin 300 beanie bags, and a bunch of them cost like fifty bucks or more! I have seen an IEE who was dirt broke buy an outfit for their girl who already had a packed closet full of shitty outfits. Never give an IEE money!
    -IEEs think buying items and sharing food is the deepest expression of love. I had an IEE badger me for 3 months up until christmas on whether I was buying particular high class plastic cups for their daughter. I bought her high class plastic cups which cost like 10 bucks, and the IEE was eternally grateful.
    -One time I called out an IEE for stealing my french fries out of the burger king bag and she chased me around the house with a baseball bat! Do not come between an IEE and their food!
    I guess all the unpleasant people in your life are automatically IEEs.
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    i just realized i made it sound like there was nothing good with IEE, which is not true. the best part of IEE for me is there's built in understanding. you basically see things the same way and you don't have any problem communicating. plus they are really friendly and fun. it's nice to be around them. they've got great ideas. right now i work with one and i am trying hard to avoid competition and allow her to take care of areas that she is good at which is people and relationships. it is hard though since i'm not anywhere near as good at that and sometimes being around her makes my weaknesses obvious or something. like i've been found out. but i guess people don't really expend a lot of energy comparing other people, so if i try to hold back from making comparisons in my own mind, maybe that helps. plus don't hand her too much Ti.

    it's interesting...the thing is that i will feel close to them and then *bang* they put the distance on, and it makes me feel like a yo yo, like they've got me or something. but like i say i think the thing that provokes the distance is when i dose them up with Ti. i don't know what it's like for them when i do that, but to hazard a guess i'd say that they feel like i'm calling them a softie or a bleeding heart or something.

    ILE

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinocchio View Post
    I agree with this, and I'd add several details from my experience.

    In my relationship with that IEE, I felt continuously watched, I couldn't be myself because one little, but very important detail: it was important how much of what I was doing was for myself or for her. This is especially obvious in sexual intercourse or going out: as long as these activities are supposed to satisfy both, the issue becomes like this: the IEEs want to understand how much the ILE has done that for him/her-self and how much for them or for the relationship.
    This doesn't happen at all between an Fe type and an Ti one, obligations are rather external, rules created for the well-being.

    This above is probably the main difference between Deltas and Alphas, as general traits. I don't remember an Alpha talking too much about "selfishness" (if at all), but on the other hand I don't think I know a Delta who didn't at least insinuate it.
    Alphas, in general (and Alpha Extroverts in particular) do everything for their own pleasure, the satisfaction of their peers is collateral and fortunate - it's actually wonderful when someone enjoys what you do. Someone doing something for you? Great, what an unexpected surprise! You feel like showing appreciation, but it's not mandatory, although recommended.

    Deltas are strongly turned-off by people who do things for themselves exclusively. (Blaze, if you read this, take note of it, if you truly want to know what your problem is) They don't conceive that people in a relationship should not do things for each other. Extroverts especially, they are impatient with waiting for random payback and tend to freak out from time to time. Someone who's paying back randomly is definitely not recalling everything what was done for him/her.
    While Delta ST are not so concerned about what kind of compensation they got, the NFs are rather very inquisitive in it, it is very important for them to know for sure what your intention was. It matters, it's not the same thing to do something for them because of that (and I think this is their ideal case), do it as a debt (last resort), hubris, mistake, extravagance or persuasion. IEEs are never explicit about this, but continuously discontent and moody because of this dissatisfaction, when applicable.

    Now, talking about strong relationships, with dependencies and stuff, because the ILE is usually sincere with his intentions, it becomes more clear for the IEE that he/she's "selfish" and does only what he/she likes, especially in a couple where the male is the Ti/Fe valuer - although ILE women have this inclination, my experience tells me that the greatest number of feminists are to be found among IEE women.
    One the other hand, the ILE feels limited and constrained, he/she can't to anything without being evaluated, most of the time being unable to understand what they have done wrong.

    The difference can be seen anywhere where Alphas and Deltas interact. For example I can see it clearly this between my ESE mother and my LSE mother-in-law, both persons who know that things have to be done. My mother is unreliable, greedy and may refuse common-sense things to others (eg hosting), but on the other hand if you catch her in the mood or having free time she can be tremendously useful, she helped me with some tasks that I'd never dream to solve myself, especially when bureaucracy is involved, she's very social and knows how to talk and convince people. My mother-in-law instead, she is very generous usually, she is not afraid of wasting resources on her system, but from time to time she's freaking out on her "wandering sheep" (actually all in her family are Fe types) - "am I the only one doing things for this household? It's the time for your gratitude, please subscribe now!". Once you participate, she has a new impulse to do things and she's content for a while.

    I'm reminded of a saying of my IEE father, he uses to say: people like you and your mother think like "what's mine is mine, what's yours is ours". It's not true, btw, I never forced him to anything, actually could someone force him to anything? He should question himself about this.

    One other thing is that Deltas don't like to talk openly about some issues, especially problems, for example relationship ones. Although they're open with other things, they throw this trash under the carpet, pretending they don't exist, avoid talking about them and reacting negatively towards indiscreet people they trusted and shared them partially with. They start complaining, but once one says "ok, it is clear this is bad, you should do something" they say "no, things are fine, except this, what's wrong with you?". Alright then...
    WorkaholicsAnon, relating to this, I can't overlook the fact that you prefer a description of this relationship telling the positive aspects, like look.to.the.sky's, but tend to ignore the warnings which in a relationship tends to become annoying for an ILE.

    Sorry for not focusing on the ILE - IEE exclusively, but I think it's good to have a large view on these things, because they're connected.
    I'd written a long reply to this point a few days ago, but lost it when my computer suddenly decided to reboot.

    Anyway, pinocchio, I think you are definitely on to something here and I appreciate your insights from your past relationship with IEE. I definitely identify with paying attention to things that might come across as selfish or egotistical and those aspects being important in a relationship (though I gather this is not referring to independence within a relationship, because I definitely like to do things on my own and dont mind if he does too). I appreciate hearing what you said from your perspective, because you're right, I never realized how the ILE must have felt in interacting with me. Granted our relationship never got TOO close, but perhaps that's why it didn't (and yes indeed he often acted egotistical, though I just ascribed that to most men )
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    um pinochio...you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to me. had to be said. do yourself, everybody else, and me a favor and edit your comments before posting them.

    or, better yet, if you want to make a case go ahead and try, but you will not be successful.

    either way, get out of the middle, grow some Se, and either bring it or stfu.

    ILE

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    My brother is ISTj. A great guy that I share many passions with. I've never had a boring conversation with him once in my life.

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    Default kindred in the workplace

    i'm not totally sure yet, but my strong hunch at this point is that my new boss is ESI. a large part of what got me hooked into socionics was my experience with beta supervisors at a previous job and i'm very alert and sensitive to the effects that intertype relations could have on workplace relationships.

    i know the theoretical overview of kindred relationships and i have a bit of experience with this relation with my ESI sister, but i was hoping for some thoughts on how this relationship might play out in a work setting (but any thoughts on this relation will be interesting and anxiety-soothing, even if they're not specifically relevant, heh). if you have thoughts about EII-ESI specifically, that would be super awesome.

    thankssss.

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    Quote Originally Posted by laghlagh View Post
    i'm not totally sure yet, but my strong hunch at this point is that my new boss is ESI. a large part of what got me hooked into socionics was my experience with beta supervisors at a previous job and i'm very alert and sensitive to the effects that intertype relations could have on workplace relationships.

    i know the theoretical overview of kindred relationships and i have a bit of experience with this relation with my ESI sister, but i was hoping for some thoughts on how this relationship might play out in a work setting (but any thoughts on this relation will be interesting and anxiety-soothing, even if they're not specifically relevant, heh). if you have thoughts about EII-ESI specifically, that would be super awesome.

    thankssss.
    i can commment. i and my kindred are extraverts though so it may or may not be helpful.

    i've experienced 4 work related kindred relations. here's what i've noticed:

    • when we are on the same level in the hierarchy and on a close distance it is very rough. we become extremely competitive and have a very hard time getting along. their Fi vibes the shit out of me and my interpretation of their behavior is that they are constantly trying to manipulate relationships to their own advantage. they don't understand my logic and misinterpret it as "rigid" when it's not, it's quite creative and flexible. but they can't deal with any kind of logical category i've noticed. i've worked with two IEE's in two different situations like this.
    • when the IEE is higher in the hierarchy than i and more distance than it works well. an IEE i know was able to support me in a lot of different ways at a previous job. she would give me the logical stuff to do, she would handle the politics. we had opportunity to work on a few projects and it went well.
    • when the IEE is somewhat removed and in a different system than i am, it also has worked well. we have been able to help each other. the one i am thinking of would tell me about different opportunities that i was able to take advantage of and expand influence.
    • i am now higher in the hierarchy than one of the IEE's in the first bullet but i have had almost no interaction with her so i can't comment on how the relation will now express itself. she ruined my trust and i'm no longer receptive to her, so it could be that the relationship is permanently tainted.
    overall, i'd say that despite connecting on the Ne level, it seems best to maintain a long distance with a kindred relation at work.

    HTH.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    ^My experience as well. Kindred is kind of like identity. It can be competitive if it gets too close, but if they are your superior (who you don't have to directly interact with all the time), they can be a good role model.

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    Default What is kindred like for you?

    What is kindred like for you? What about the aspect of kindred where it says that cooperation is difficult? When has a kindred made cooperation difficult? Is it insubordination? Is it miscommunication?
     
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    Kindred relationships are good for discussion, but there will be big differences in what to do. I have a lot of similar interests with the IEE's I've know but vastly different ideas on what to do and how to behave, which make it impossible to cooperate.

    I think maybe 2 ethical kindreds(i.e ethical rationals) may have a easier time than irrational kindred.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Kindred relationships are good for discussion, but there will be big differences in what to do. I have a lot of similar interests with the IEE's I've know but vastly different ideas on what to do and how to behave, which make it impossible to cooperate.

    I think maybe 2 ethical kindreds(i.e ethical rationals) may have a easier time than irrational kindred.
    I imagine that you are discussing work with IEEs in a tech field. What if they are in a art or entertainment field? By what to do, do you mean what type of tech answer to give? By how to behave, is that in the workplace? What is a workplace Kindred like?

    Of course I work in art, not science.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    I imagine that you are discussing work with IEEs in a tech field. What if they are in a art or entertainment field? By what to do, do you mean what type of tech answer to give? By how to behave, is that in the workplace? What is a workplace Kindred like?

    Of course I work in art, not science.
    It doesn't matter really.

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    It's comfortable and really easy to talk to. I rarely get polr hits from her, but we've also known each other for 17 years, so that's probably part of it. She points out things that I don't notice and talks about how she manipulates the social sphere, which I find intriguing because I tend to brute force that part of my life, whereas she's got much more of a fine touch. She realizes she can't tell ME what to do or how I SHOULD do things, thankfully (because I've had that happen and rebel), but she's the person I go to when I need to know if something is "okay" in the social sphere of things that are probably really obvious to other people. Like, "Hey, should I go talk to this dude after what just happened?" and I'll get a yes or no, and an explanation. And she's really good at explaining the motivations of other people and why they probably feel/think what they are from their perspective which is helpful. If she was someone who tried to force me to do something one way or looked down on me when I did something in a way that she wouldn't, then there would be a problem. Similarly, if I tried to force my beliefs on her because it's something that I just see as 'making sense', then she would have a problem with me.

    Similarly, she comes to me for things to see if they make sense. Like, if she gets in a debate with someone (this happens fairly regularly, just because of her life), she'll rant and rave and ask if she's crazy or being illogical and if what she was arguing makes sense. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it's a grey area. ANd we talk it out and explain things.

    And, of course, there's the crazy Ne-bouncing-off-each-other which is very useful. Kindred is a comfortable relationship. We can not talk for months (which bothers me more than her) and pick up just where we left off. We're very good about giving each other space and just understand "that's just how she is" with each other and aren't demanding, but at the same time don't give each other what we need. It's like a slightly off-kilter twin, if that makes sense. It's very good for friendship, so long as we're both also having independent lives from each other (we couldn't each be the only person that the other hangs out with or we'd both get bored and sick of each other.) I wouldn't be who I am today without her (probably more typically Fi-polr asshole, I guess) and neither would she (she's better at trying to put pieces together to make sense, bless her heart). We're both like giant labrador puppies with paws too big and stumble around in polr areas, but are very adapted to not "triggering" each other, if that makes sense.

    Or maybe I'm just SLI and we're duals. LOL

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    Quote Originally Posted by FoxOnStilts View Post
    It's comfortable and really easy to talk to. I rarely get polr hits from her, but we've also known each other for 17 years, so that's probably part of it. She points out things that I don't notice and talks about how she manipulates the social sphere, which I find intriguing because I tend to brute force that part of my life, whereas she's got much more of a fine touch. She realizes she can't tell ME what to do or how I SHOULD do things, thankfully (because I've had that happen and rebel), but she's the person I go to when I need to know if something is "okay" in the social sphere of things that are probably really obvious to other people. Like, "Hey, should I go talk to this dude after what just happened?" and I'll get a yes or no, and an explanation. And she's really good at explaining the motivations of other people and why they probably feel/think what they are from their perspective which is helpful. If she was someone who tried to force me to do something one way or looked down on me when I did something in a way that she wouldn't, then there would be a problem. Similarly, if I tried to force my beliefs on her because it's something that I just see as 'making sense', then she would have a problem with me.

    Similarly, she comes to me for things to see if they make sense. Like, if she gets in a debate with someone (this happens fairly regularly, just because of her life), she'll rant and rave and ask if she's crazy or being illogical and if what she was arguing makes sense. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't, and sometimes it's a grey area. ANd we talk it out and explain things.

    And, of course, there's the crazy Ne-bouncing-off-each-other which is very useful. Kindred is a comfortable relationship. We can not talk for months (which bothers me more than her) and pick up just where we left off. We're very good about giving each other space and just understand "that's just how she is" with each other and aren't demanding, but at the same time don't give each other what we need. It's like a slightly off-kilter twin, if that makes sense. It's very good for friendship, so long as we're both also having independent lives from each other (we couldn't each be the only person that the other hangs out with or we'd both get bored and sick of each other.) I wouldn't be who I am today without her (probably more typically Fi-polr asshole, I guess) and neither would she (she's better at trying to put pieces together to make sense, bless her heart). We're both like giant labrador puppies with paws too big and stumble around in polr areas, but are very adapted to not "triggering" each other, if that makes sense.

    Or maybe I'm just SLI and we're duals. LOL
    Are you joking about being an SLE? I thought we typed you as ILE? So is your kindred a SLE to SEE or is it ILE to IEE?

    What do you mean by "social brute force" if you are an ILE?
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Are you joking about being an SLE? I thought we typed you as ILE? So is your kindred a SLE to SEE or is it ILE to IEE?
    I am ILE. She is IEE. Although if I could be Fi-SLE.....

    I meant that I don't like playing those subtle social manipulation games. If I don't like someone, instead of hanging around them for the benefit of others or just tolerating some stupid shit they do/say, I just don't hang around them, whereas IEE is a doormat and likes to be around people, so she puts up with them and that weird push-pull of social relationships. I don't keep people around unless they're worth keeping around (as in I like their company and their positive influence on me outweighs the negative), and that's all it boils down to for me.
    Last edited by FoxOnStilts; 08-14-2013 at 05:31 PM.

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