# Thread: duals and supporting subtypes

1. ## duals and supporting subtypes

From my understanding, duals with supporting subtypes have a more supportive/comfortable relationship than other duals.

For example
An INTj (intuitive subtype) and ESFj (Sensing subtype) will have a more supportive relationship than INTj (logical subtype) and ESFj (Sensing subtype).

The first pair both have irrational subtypes that support each other, while in the second pair one has a rational subtype while the other has an irrational subtype, which do not provide the same level of support as the first pair.

My question
Taking the second pair above as an example, would subtypes between duals alter/change in order to make the dual relationship most supportive and comfortable?

So for example the second pair in the above example alters to become exactly like the first pair: INTj (logical subtype) and ESFj (Sensing subtype) transforming into INTj (intuitive subtype) and ESFj (Sensing subtype).

2. Would someone offer an explanation of subtype theory before we delve into it?

3. From socionics.com

Although there are two main functions, a dominant function and an auxiliary, a person can sometimes prefer one function better then the other. So sometimes it is the dominant over the auxiliary, sometimes it is the auxiliary over the dominant. If an ENFp prefers Intuition over Feeling then they are Intuitive subtype, if an ESTj prefers Sensing over Thinking, they are Sensing subtype. Sometimes this preference is quite balanced, so it is not possible to tell which subtype a person is. So the most recognisable types are normally the ones with the preference for the dominant function. For the second part of the question: A good publication requires some time. Yes, there are plans for a publication in English, however it might not happen for quite a while.
Imagine you are a potter. You need to prepare some clay first and then you can start shaping it up. The dominant and the auxiliary functions work in similar way. The dominant function prepares the "clay" while the auxiliary function shapes it up. So the type of "clay" your dominant function processes, determines the type of your Information Metabolism (IM). ESTj is the type of IM and it will always have dominant Te. An ESTp will always have dominant Se. The auxiliary function takes the "clay" from the dominant function and makes it into a form. ESTj will shape Te into Si, ESTp will make Ti out of Se. You can prefer the preparation process, in this case you prefer your dominant function. You can prefer the forming process, in this case you prefer your auxiliary function. You can have no preference for any process, in this case you have the preparation and the forming balanced. So if some ESTj prefers Sensing over Thinking, he or she prefers the auxiliary function, which is involved in the shaping process. In other words such ESTj will be quite creative with his or her Si, but this will not change his or her type of IM, which will still be ESTj. This may however make this ESTj to adopt some of ISTp's style of behaviour.
Think about the dominant function or the first function or the main function as very conservative and definitive of the type and the auxiliary function or second function as quite liberal. So INTj with logical subtype, or should we write it IN(T)j, would almost certainly make a double effort to stress his or her main function and may appear painfully logical, whereas I(N)Tj, INTj with intuitive subtype could be quite balanced and creative and sometimes not as clearly logical as IN(T)j. Painfully intuitive E(N)Tp would appear as a mess, i.e. classic stereotypical ENTp space cadet. Again, logical EN(T)p could be quite balanced, similar to intuitive I(N)Tj, and this could be the case for confusion you described, which is not that uncommon.
From socioniko.net

In socionics, there are several hypotheses of subtypes. However, ONLY HYPOTHESES. Their authors can describe subtypes but cannot derive regularities from these descriptions; or they propose unreal regularities not recognized by other socionists.

4. ## Re: duals and supporting subtypes

Originally Posted by Hugo
would subtypes between duals alter/change in order to make the dual relationship most supportive and comfortable?
.
Interesting question. I think you're on to something.

I don't know about "changing". I think that, when interacting with each other, each partner could emphasize more the functions that the other needs. But it would be less comfortable than with your "natural" dual.

For instance, I think I'm ENTj intuitive subtype. I have very few real-life examples to compare, but I think I am 100% myself when interacting with ISFjs sensory subtype. I also feel duality with ISFj ethical subtypes, but slightly less comfortable - with just a tiny bit of strain.

5. ## Re: duals and supporting subtypes

Originally Posted by Expat
Originally Posted by Hugo
would subtypes between duals alter/change in order to make the dual relationship most supportive and comfortable?
.
Interesting question. I think you're on to something.

I don't know about "changing". I think that, when interacting with each other, each partner could emphasize more the functions that the other needs. But it would be less comfortable than with your "natural" dual.

For instance, I think I'm ENTj intuitive subtype. I have very few real-life examples to compare, but I think I am 100% myself when interacting with ISFjs sensory subtype. I also feel duality with ISFj ethical subtypes, but slightly less comfortable - with just a tiny bit of strain.
Taking your example of E(N)Tj and IS(F)j, even though there might be an 'initial' strain, do you think that subtypes might adjust for the establishment of perfect duality?

So after time, might E(N)Tj and IS(F)j eventually turn into ENTj (split subtype) and ISFj (split subtype)?

6. I think duals who are both perceiving subtype would be a good match, but those who have judging subtypes (a T subtype and an F subtype) ummm....I can see that being really ugly.

7. To the best of my knowledge looking at both the behavior of my wife and myself as far back as I can remember or know of, I have always been an N-subtype ENTj, and my wife has always been an S-subtype ISFj (both irrational/perceiving subtypes). I don't think subtype is something that you can naturally change. Maybe if you needed to compromise and adapt in a relationship you could effectively go from one subtype to a split, but I don't think you could become the opposite subtype. I think there's probably some pretty big differences between an S-subtype and an F-subtype ISFj in my wife's case, just as I'm getting a sense that there are some big differences between N and T subtype ENTjs in my case.

In our case...

An I(S)Fj will resemble an ESFp at times (this I can see in her).
An E(N)Tj will resemble an INTp at times (I did think I was an INTp for awhile)

This is the other duality pair in the Gamma quadra.

She could not possibly become a full blown ethical subtype ISFj if her life depended on it. It's just not who/what she is. Maybe she could for awhile, but she'd just be denying her true self and that isn't good for a long-term relationship. Just like I'm not a hardcore T-subtype business-minded ENTj. I fit the N-subtype definition much better and don't think I'll ever become a T-subtype. I probably could for awhile should the need arise but it's just not a natural role or something I'm fully comfortable with. A lot of the ENTJ profiles and stereotypes seem to be based around the T subtype which is probably why I never really identified with any of the ENTJ profiles until I read the Jack London one.

Maybe I'll try reading some ESFp profiles for my wife and see how well they fit her.

8. ## Re: duals and supporting subtypes

Originally Posted by Hugo
Taking your example of E(N)Tj and IS(F)j, even though there might be an 'initial' strain, do you think that subtypes might adjust for the establishment of perfect duality?

So after time, might E(N)Tj and IS(F)j eventually turn into ENTj (split subtype) and ISFj (split subtype)?
Not according to my experience. I have also had long friendships with ethical ISFjs and I did not perceive any such trend. However, it wasn't as close as with a romantic relationship.

An I(S)Fj will resemble an ESFp at times (this I can see in her).
An E(N)Tj will resemble an INTp at times (I did think I was an INTp for awhile)
I agree with everything steventj wrote, and I think the above quote is particularly insightful.

Steve, a question -- would you say that the times when your wife tends to resemble an ESFp are those of greater stress or uncertainty (for an ISFj those would coincide), or is it more random?

9. Cone and FDG say that their subtypes have changed.

10. Even though the two ENTp subtypes fit me rather well, I say I lean more toward logic than intuition most of the time. I am more composed, ordered, and systematic that most ENTps, but am still very ENTpish compared to other types, I think.

To attempt to answer Hugo's question: I can see that happening. When in such a supportive realitionship (duality) I can see both parties being comfortable enough with each other to adjust a bit, open up, and make the relationship even more pleasant. In fact, I can see this happening in any relationship, as long as the safety is there.

For instance, when I talk to Joy, I can feel myself going sometimes to balance out the assload of she releases (I think I'm definitely the one going "ISFp" here MOST of the time, lol). In a dual situation, I could see myself going either or to balance out the or being used. It wouldn't really be that hard for me at all, but then again, I fluctuate from severe INTjism, to outlandish ENTp improv, to ISFp lovey dovey bullshit all the time. Very inconsistent.

But yeah, Hugo. I can see it.

11. Isn't he sweet? Don't forget though, life crisis blah blah blah and stuff.

12. Originally Posted by Joy
Isn't he sweet? Don't forget though, life crisis blah blah blah and stuff.
0_0 I wasn't complaining.

13. I know, that's why I said you are sweet.

14. Maybe subtype is a bias to suit current need? Just a guess...

Kinda like playing the best card possible out of a hand of cards to play. You dont have much choice in the cards handed to you but you can favor one specifically? Yes/No? Maybe so?

15. I need to find some solid info on subtypes. I haven't found any.

Can anyone help?

16. Good luck. Ive looked. Sometimes I wish I could read Russian to look more but I know I dont have the time for it yet =p

17. ## How does subtype affect duality?

Example: beta irrational dyad: two theories I can't decide on.

Theory 1. Ni & Se dualize each other as do Fe & Ti, so that would be the most obvious subtype match.

Theory 2. SLE-Se has more need for Fe (accentuated ha).. as does SLE-Ti for Ni (accentuated ds.) therefor SLE-Ti dualizes well with IEI-Ni & SLE-Se dualizes well with IEI-Fe.

Q. Accepting with accepting, and producing with producing..or..Accepting with producing, vice-versa?

18. I find they affect me in different ways.

producing and producing sends my Ne into over-drive and sharpens my Ti to be very objective and less opinionated. Producing and producing are synchronous but have difficulty with setting up action. Every ESFJ Si I've met has always had great chemistry but neither one of us takes charge in the relationship and it ends up dead in the water. The ESFJ Si rejects all invitations and sends out none. This is where the weakness of the ESFJ Si matches the weakness of the INTJ Ne in terms of dealing with relationship and status. Their both weak in this area and neither one resolves it.

Producing and accepting has more negativity involved but more positivity too, there is a stronger emotional pulse. They generally are more active oriented and pleasant. However there is a sense of disharmony after awhile. They can get together easier but dissatisfaction arises for both.

I had believed producing and producing is a better pair but now I'm not too sure. From experience I find producing and producing has greater chemistry and communication but lacks action which is the strongest aspect of producing and accepting, mainly due to ESFJ Fe confidence in setting up contact.

I wish it was easier but it's not. Producing/producing has its perks when they get together, they get along better. However neither one has confidence in setting up a time to get together so a good thing goes to waste. Internally they have a great affect but do nothing externally.

Producing/Accepting gets off to a quick start. They will exchange numbers say, call each other, talk everyday, but at the same time they do not harmonize as closely. Externally they will get together and act like a couple but internally must is less unresolved.

In short: it's fuck! haha

19. Originally Posted by octopuslove
So SLE-Se, who are "better" at their HA than SLE-Ti,
How are certain subtypes better at their HA?

Originally Posted by walker31
Example: beta irrational dyad: two theories I can't decide on.

Theory 1. Ni & Se dualize each other as do Fe & Ti, so that would be the most obvious subtype match.

Theory 2. SLE-Se has more need for Fe (accentuated ha).. as does SLE-Ti for Ni (accentuated ds.) therefor SLE-Ti dualizes well with IEI-Ni & SLE-Se dualizes well with IEI-Fe.

Q. Accepting with accepting, and producing with producing..or..Accepting with producing, vice-versa?
I guess to start, let's define what 'having a subtype' does on personality. You use that function more often, right? Or is it stronger?

Using the definition of using it more often, my guess would be, one dual or the other would simply focus more on their aspect of reality, or tend to mobilize the other into sharing their perspective of reality.

In any case, all ego functions are continually being mobilized and used, in the natural progression of the relationship, so I doubt subtypes have any significant impact on the long-term compatibility of the relationship, as some people think they do.

20. Originally Posted by chip
ESFJ Fe confidence in setting up contact.

I wish it was easier but it's not.
Hi. How are you doing, chip?

21. The other subtype just doesn't respond as well, there's more flow between the same subtypes' dom functions. Has nothing to do with hidden agendas or whatever the crap.

22. Alright, alright... since chip and poli are ranking duality compatibility, according to subtype...

Would the least compatible dual relationship still be more compatible than the most compatible Activity relationship?

Most people believe I'm Fe-ESE. Let's say I hook up with a Ti-ILE. Better relationship than a Ne-LII?

23. Originally Posted by Mountain Dew
Would the least compatible dual relationship still be more compatible than the most compatible Activity relationship?
Yes. There's more than just the main function. Since we use all the functions, temperament is a big factor too; it ultimately decides the quality of flow in the relationship.

24. Originally Posted by poli
Yes.
So, you'd agree, in ranking the following:

Most powerful Ti:

1) Ti-LII.
2) Ne-LII.
3) Ti-ILE.
4) Ne-ILE.

Correct?

25. Originally Posted by octopuslove
Stronger Ti necessarily means weaker Fe, etc.
Hmm, but don't Ti and Fe fuel each other? Let me ask:

When a couple dualizes, right....

Isn't it said that duals are better at temporarily producing, or knowing what their partner would say, when they're not there? Isn't that how people become more complete in their thinking?

So wouldn't a Ti ego also get stronger at producing Fe, when the need arises?

Do you think that'd be possible? Or are you sticking with more, the lines of thinking that, the Ti ego, having Fe being produced in his environment more often, would become more accustomed to it being produced FOR him, therefore produce it less, hence weaker Fe, and use Ti more often, hence stronger Ti?

Would you define a dualized Ti-ego as having a better balance of Ti-Fe, or just an overall better balanced Ti view of reality?

26. Originally Posted by octopuslove
You're operating on the assumption that a better overall dual relationship only depends on "flow" between base functions, and how much you piss the other person off with your creative function use is completely irrelevant. Which in my experience, it's not.
Well I guess we're on the same page then, I thought you were talking about something else.

27. In my experience, they truly matter only when they're quite extreme (extremely diverging, of course). In that case we basically aren't speaking about duality anymore, but rather either illusionary or semi-dual - depending on the direction of divergence.

28. this is what duality with mis-matched subtypes must be like

29. It doesn't.

30. Originally Posted by Diam0nd
Example: beta irrational dyad: two theories I can't decide on.

Theory 1. Ni & Se dualize each other as do Fe & Ti, so that would be the most obvious subtype match.

Theory 2. SLE-Se has more need for Fe (accentuated ha).. as does SLE-Ti for Ni (accentuated ds.) therefor SLE-Ti dualizes well with IEI-Ni & SLE-Se dualizes well with IEI-Fe.

Q. Accepting with accepting, and producing with producing..or..Accepting with producing, vice-versa?
As octo said, SLE-Se has less of a need for Fe, and SLE-Ti less of a need for Ni. I made a thread about this subject awhile ago, and the answer to this question according to various russian texts happens to be that SLE-Se pairs better with IEI-Fe and SLE-Ti with IEI-Ni. The Se/Ni and Fe/Ti matches came from a western perspective I'm assuming, which was uninformed and based on what a 'common sense' pairing would look like - however, in the works I've read that particular pairing is categorized as antagonistic while the SLE-Se IEI-Fe pairing is characterized as complementary. The antagonistic matches have been said to be better in terms of working towards something, such as a project or whatnot - but the 'emotional compatibility' aka what people have come to think of standard duality, is in the realm of complementary subtypes. The idea behind this is that Se and Ni are oppositional ways of perception, and so if you have someone like an SLE-SE with an IEI-Fe there will be less friction due to them being at 'closer' ends of perception then the SLE-Se and IEI-Ni who are diametrically opposed to each other.

31. Thats interesting Pirate, but I'm not really interested in subtypes anymore... duals are duals.

32. Originally Posted by thePirate
As octo said, SLE-Se has less of a need for Fe, and SLE-Ti less of a need for Ni. I made a thread about this subject awhile ago, and the answer to this question according to various russian texts happens to be that SLE-Se pairs better with IEI-Fe and SLE-Ti with IEI-Ni. The Se/Ni and Fe/Ti matches came from a western perspective I'm assuming, which was uninformed and based on what a 'common sense' pairing would look like - however, in the works I've read that particular pairing is categorized as antagonistic while the SLE-Se IEI-Fe pairing is characterized as complementary. The antagonistic matches have been said to be better in terms of working towards something, such as a project or whatnot - but the 'emotional compatibility' aka what people have come to think of standard duality, is in the realm of complementary subtypes. The idea behind this is that Se and Ni are oppositional ways of perception, and so if you have someone like an SLE-SE with an IEI-Fe there will be less friction due to them being at 'closer' ends of perception then the SLE-Se and IEI-Ni who are diametrically opposed to each other.

I was thinking of accepting/producing and my experiences. When me and accepting subtype people talk, I'm very often making a strained effort to "reach" the other person and I suspect the same holds true with the other person. Hell, with a Te-LIE, we kept talking at the same time, then stopping, then talking at the same time... when it's me and someone with producing subtype, there's usually a better flow to things... when I color type relations with this, things make a lot more sense, like me getting on as well as I do with Se-LSIs and all...

33. Creative subtypes are darklords and Primary subtypes are holy mast3rs. The streams should never cross or all hell will break loose.

34. It's everywhere: Relationships are divided into two camps: The D-N dyad and the H-C dyad.

35. Originally Posted by Diam0nd
Example: beta irrational dyad: two theories I can't decide on.

Theory 1. Ni & Se dualize each other as do Fe & Ti, so that would be the most obvious subtype match.

Theory 2. SLE-Se has more need for Fe (accentuated ha).. as does SLE-Ti for Ni (accentuated ds.) therefor SLE-Ti dualizes well with IEI-Ni & SLE-Se dualizes well with IEI-Fe.

Q. Accepting with accepting, and producing with producing..or..Accepting with producing, vice-versa?
nr 1 is correct. accepting + accepting and producing + producing.

It's quite easy to feel when you are with your dual. Same subtypes gives you more of a soulmate feeling than differing subtypes.

36. Matching subtypes are ideal (ie: Ti ILE and Fe SEI). Dissenting subtype means a conflicting preference for either neighboring quadra. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, it just means you'll each drift slightly towards different people. Duality is strong either way. The absence of loyalty and commitment is the only threat to a mismatched subtype relationship because it opens the possibility one ditching (or at least, putting second) the mismatched old friend for a new matched friend.

37. I don't know how it works in practice (e.g. when you are in a relationship) but I'm much more attracted to ISTp Te than to ISTp Si. I'd say I cannot even imagine a sexual relationship with Si subtype although I love them as friends. My very good friend is female Te ISTp - we liked each other from the very beginning.
Maybe I'm a really strong Fi subtype because in general I think I'd prefer ESTj Te over ISTp Si. ESTj Si has been a very good match for me so far.
I'd agree that subtypes matter only when they are really strong. Individual traits should play much more significant role IMO than subtypes.

38. ...

39. Originally Posted by Agarina
It's the same for me if you swap the words ISTp and ESTj. Si-LSEs and Te-SLIs are very much preferred. Based on my past experiences I can't really see myself being with a Te-LSE, and would probably choose even the Si subtype of SLI over them. Maybe that'll change some day if I get "dualised" or just happen to meet some awesome Te-LSE, but I wouldn't bet on that.
I've seen this sentiment before from you and it seems like you're awfully sure of what you like/want. I'm not going to assume that because you're using the terms "Te-ESTj" and "Si-ESTj" that you would ever limit your relationship experience based on what the theory says, but ime whatever ideation for the other-half people build up in their minds, and whatever qualities they enumerate that they would prefer in their partner, fall apart as soon as things just "click". I've seen people make "but this is just an exception, not a rule!" and other silly justifications but I really wonder if all of our choices are exceptions anyway. This is not to say there isn't a pattern to our likes and dislikes, our preferences and so forth; I'm just not so sure we're ever fully conscious of it (esp. vicariously).

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