ffff

[Angel von Himmel]

I think steve is saying that I am being both considerate and analytical, so I am not at all sure that disagreeing with him is totally necessary.

What I'm saying is that people here have a lot of different thoughts about your type. You "consider the possibilities" and then analyze them logically for merit. But since "considering the possibliities" which can be applied to anything in the external world is about YOU in this case, it becomes "reflective".

Well, I apparently my chief logical function is introverted, so naturally when I must think activelly about something I will reflect upon what I am thinking about. Of course, That is usually after I have gathered the whole of all of the possibilities of what I am considering and I have gotten an idea of the big picture or sometimes I just hammer out misc information about me to see how people are going to comment about it.

For example, I am sometimes doubtful of my type and I know I do not always have all of the options and possibilities I could consider so I must at times derive these from other sources. Usually this consist of me making a post in an obscure forum that I can use as a nice little information bank of ideas that may or may not conflict. Each time I get a little something diffrent out of it and I can look things at a slightly diffrent way, and if I am lucky I can discover a new way of looking at things that is far superior to what I previous knew.

So, if that is what you were saying, I think you were right on the money,

[stevENTj]

What I'm saying is that people here have a lot of different thoughts about your type. You "consider the possibilities" and then analyze them logically for merit. But since "considering the possibliities" which can be applied to anything in the external world is about YOU in this case, it becomes "reflective".

But how do you explain someone with a PoLR of Ne doing the same thing? That is my problem with people following the Models (which are over-simplifications) too systematically. Also, using some terms like "possibilites" and "analysis" are HIGHLEY subjective, and to get the "truer" feel for the funcitons, you would either have to consiously observe them in others, or read "Psychological Types" by Jung.

My wife is ISFj with PoLR Ne. She doesn't like using Ne and she especially doesn't like it when somebody slaps her in the face with it. I learned that the hard way. I need to stick with Te if I want to influence or guide her. I think Louise (ISFj) also pretty much told you to shut up and that she would look at stuff on her own and figure it out on her own because you were PoLR slapping her. ISFj's don't like that.

I think you use Ne a lot less than you think you do. Like I said, you seem to latch onto small details about people and argue along those points even if it isn't representative of them in the grand scheme of things. Maybe your perception is that you're using Ne and "considering the possibilities" but I think you use Ti more and Se to drive the point home. You stick to your guns on whatever point you're trying to make and tend to ignore the other possibilities that other people point out, even from Reuben himself. I have seen you flat out ignore counterpoints from him (and others) which I think is why he eventually gets tired of replying to you and stops answering your questions because he ends up talking straight past you. And then you get mad at or criticize him when he doesn't answer your questions. His perceived "avoidance" of your questions is what makes you think you were right, but in reality he's not avoiding them but you're ignoring a lot of what he says and he just gets tired of arguing with you and stops.

That is my $0.02 observation.

[stevENTj]

Yes it could, but that's not what I was talking about. You seemed to miss that.

Also, a three word definition, as I said before, is FAR too much of an over-simplification, and is not to be taken too seriously.

You're taking what I say in a literal sense. My understanding of is beyond three words.

[stevENTj]

I think steve is saying that I am being both considerate and analytical, so I am not at all sure that disagreeing with him is totally necessary.

What I'm saying is that people here have a lot of different thoughts about your type. You "consider the possibilities" and then analyze them logically for merit. But since "considering the possibliities" which can be applied to anything in the external world is about YOU in this case, it becomes "reflective".

Well, I apparently my chief logical function is introverted, so naturally when I must think activelly about something I will reflect upon what I am thinking about. Of course, That is usually after I have gathered the whole of all of the possibilities of what I am considering and I have gotten an idea of the big picture or sometimes I just hammer out misc information about me to see how people are going to comment about it.

For example, I am sometimes doubtful of my type and I know I do not always have all of the options and possibilities I could consider so I must at times derive these from other sources. Usually this consist of me making a post in an obscure forum that I can use as a nice little information bank of ideas that may or may not conflict. Each time I get a little something diffrent out of it and I can look things at a slightly diffrent way, and if I am lucky I can discover a new way of looking at things that is far superior to what I previous knew.

So, if that is what you were saying, I think you were right on the money,

Occasionally I have "oh shit" moments when I realize I'm wrong about something or am just not sure of myself, and then I become an ENTp. I gather as much information I can about things and then hammer out the details to see what makes sense and what doesn't. Then I go back into my normal ENTj mode. When I realized I wasn't sure about my type and kept seeing all sorts of inconsistencies, that was one of those "oh shit" moments, and I got into an ENTp mode. I spewed a crap load of information onto this forum and went through all of it line by line, and that's pretty much what you do here in these threads debating about your type. Dump all the info you can, and then work out the details and seeing what fits and what doesn't.

Both you and Rocky initially thought I was an ENTp.

[stevENTj]

I think you use Ne a lot less than you think you do. Like I said, you seem to latch onto small details about people and argue along those points even if it isn't representative of them in the grand scheme of things. Maybe your perception is that you're using Ne and "considering the possibilities" but I think you use Ti more and Se to drive the point home. You stick to your guns on whatever point you're trying to make and tend to ignore the other possibilities that other people point out, even from Reuben himself. I have seen you flat out ignore counterpoints from him (and others) which I think is why he eventually gets tired of replying to you and stops answering your questions because he ends up talking straight past you. And then you get mad at or criticize him when he doesn't answer your questions. His perceived "avoidance" of your questions is what makes you think you were right, but in reality he's not avoiding them but you're ignoring a lot of what he says and he just gets tired of arguing with you and stops.

That is my $0.02 observation.

I take that back. Your perceived aggression in arguing points is not Se but rather a lack of Fe, after looking at your test results. That makes a little more sense. On some points you try to argue though, you still seem to get yourself caught in the little details and miss the big picture though.

[Angel von Himmel]

I think steve is saying that I am being both considerate and analytical, so I am not at all sure that disagreeing with him is totally necessary.

What I'm saying is that people here have a lot of different thoughts about your type. You "consider the possibilities" and then analyze them logically for merit. But since "considering the possibliities" which can be applied to anything in the external world is about YOU in this case, it becomes "reflective".

Well, I apparently my chief logical function is introverted, so naturally when I must think activelly about something I will reflect upon what I am thinking about. Of course, That is usually after I have gathered the whole of all of the possibilities of what I am considering and I have gotten an idea of the big picture or sometimes I just hammer out misc information about me to see how people are going to comment about it.

For example, I am sometimes doubtful of my type and I know I do not always have all of the options and possibilities I could consider so I must at times derive these from other sources. Usually this consist of me making a post in an obscure forum that I can use as a nice little information bank of ideas that may or may not conflict. Each time I get a little something diffrent out of it and I can look things at a slightly diffrent way, and if I am lucky I can discover a new way of looking at things that is far superior to what I previous knew.

So, if that is what you were saying, I think you were right on the money,

Occasionally I have "oh shit" moments when I realize I'm wrong about something or am just not sure of myself, and then I become an ENTp. I gather as much information I can about things and then hammer out the details to see what makes sense and what doesn't. Then I go back into my normal ENTj mode. When I realized I wasn't sure about my type and kept seeing all sorts of inconsistencies, that was one of those "oh shit" moments, and I got into an ENTp mode. I spewed a crap load of information onto this forum and went through all of it line by line, and that's pretty much what you do here in these threads debating about your type. Dump all the info you can, and then work out the details and seeing what fits and what doesn't.

Both you and Rocky initially thought I was an ENTp.

Yeah, but with and is it not more like something just hits you suddenly and you are like "ohh crap" and then you have active discussions about patterns and possibilities derived from various modes of collective thinking or you talk about what you believe or something to see what others will say just to get collective input.

Cause with me, I just sort of get a feeling of doubt about what I might believe and then to extinguish the doubt I have to collect various meanings of things, beliefs, and opinions to see if there is a better posibility and if I find one I see as better I accept it.

Anyhow, I am a little unsure how it is done with ENTjs, but it seems to be the same or similar concept just done a little diffrently.

[diamond]

I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU ARE HUMORING THIS THEORY. IF YOU ARE NOT ENTP, YOU ARE ENFJ OR SOMEOTHER TYPE, BUT NOT AN INFP!!!

He just wants attention. He's clearly entp. Posting this thread is very entp, too.

[Creepy-]

I thought attention seeking was an INFp thing? :wink:

My vote is with ENTp, he doesn't come across as any Ethical type to me. (Yes, it's vague. I'm conserving my energy).

[stevENTj]

Yeah, but with and is it not more like something just hits you suddenly and you are like "ohh crap" and then you have active discussions about patterns and possibilities derived from various modes of collective thinking or you talk about what you believe or something to see what others will say just to get collective input.

Cause with me, I just sort of get a feeling of doubt about what I might believe and then to extinguish the doubt I have to collect various meanings of things, beliefs, and opinions to see if there is a better posibility and if I find one I see as better I accept it.

Anyhow, I am a little unsure how it is done with ENTjs, but it seems to be the same or similar concept just done a little diffrently.

+ is more along the lines of a "oh crap, I don't know how this is going to play out, so lets run through all of these scenarios and see which one works out the best for us" type of thing. I tend to be thinking about the future a lot, and I want whatever I do to be efficient and effective, and have good results in the end. I don't like doing anything unless I'm confident of that, whether it's planning a vacation, troubleshooting something at work, buying a car, or even the order in which I do things on weekends. Or when my wife is in one of her downward spiral pessimistic and fatalistic moods, I use it to tell her how everything will be okay, exactly how we'll get through everything, how it will work, why it will work, and that feeds her hidden agenda "to believe" with my . I have a good sense of the future and how things will play out, and I can plan for it and maneuver through it very easily.

A good example is when my wife and I first started dating. Somehow I just knew that we had tons of potential and a great future together if we wanted it. Once I said something that really offended her and she stormed out of my dorm room. I thought she was being extremely unreasonable, but I thought to myself in an instant that if I didn't go chase her down and work things out that all of this potential would be lost, we would probably be over, and I might not ever find another girl like her again. I chased her down. And now here I am nearly 10 years later typing on this forum with the realization that she's the perfect dual to me and we're both irrational subtypes. :wink:

That's a bit different than , such as "hmmm... am I an INTj, INTp, INFp, or this guy says ENxj?? WTF?" There's no time related implication of the future there, it's just differently possibilities of what could be about a particular idea or concept. It was a real stretch for my Ne to consider that I might actually be an Extrovert, but you considered that naturally since that's just what an ENTp seems to be able to do naturally and frequently. Me, once I figure something out I tend to go into lock down mode and stick with it until there comes a time when I have good reason to believe that something else might be better. But it has to be a good reason, and it has to matter in the future. I don't constantly re-evaluate things, like my type. To me it's a trivial thing that has little to no impact on my future so I really don't care anymore. What does it matter? It doesn't. To an ENTp, maybe you just examine the possibilities for possibilities sake just because that's what you do and how you operate, but not me. To really get my attention there has to be some sort of future consequence of action or inaction.

[Rocky]

My wife is ISFj with PoLR Ne. She doesn't like using Ne and she especially doesn't like it when somebody slaps her in the face with it. I learned that the hard way. I need to stick with Te if I want to influence or guide her. I think Louise (ISFj) also pretty much told you to shut up and that she would look at stuff on her own and figure it out on her own because you were PoLR slapping her. ISFj's don't like that.

No, see, I think you're still missing my point here. I'm saying that you are really, really streching it (at best) to say that the concept of this thread and it's exsistance is that of Ne. At worst, it is a down right fabrication. Doubting your type has nothing to do with Ne, clearly. That is why I gave the example of Five. He started several different threads over a long period of time asking peoples opinions of his type (SEVERAL). He is an ISTj. I did the same thing a while back when I was doubting my type, with several differnet threads asking peoples' opinions. I'm ISTp. I am in constant question of my type, so I don't think it has anything to do with the functions. There have been a bunch of other people who don't have a "strong Ne" who have douted there type, so I don't think that is really a vaild argument to decide someone's type on ("If he doubts his type, he is ENTp!").

I think you use Ne a lot less than you think you do. Like I said, you seem to latch onto small details about people and argue along those points even if it isn't representative of them in the grand scheme of things. Maybe your perception is that you're using Ne and "considering the possibilities" but I think you use Ti more and Se to drive the point home. You stick to your guns on whatever point you're trying to make and tend to ignore the other possibilities that other people point out, even from Reuben himself.

Well, I think it's safe to say that viewing things through Si is like looking at things through a microscope. You can get a clear picture of things sometimes, but it is also possible to zoom in TOO far.

I have seen you flat out ignore counterpoints from him (and others) which I think is why he eventually gets tired of replying to you and stops answering your questions because he ends up talking straight past you. And then you get mad at or criticize him when he doesn't answer your questions. His perceived "avoidance" of your questions is what makes you think you were right, but in reality he's not avoiding them but you're ignoring a lot of what he says and he just gets tired of arguing with you and stops.

I haven't flat out ignored him, I think the problem, though, is that we are misunderstanding/misinterpreting each other. We are viewing socionics differnetly. I am claiming that his thinking process is that of an *introvert*, whereas he claims he does act that way, but that his behavior should be defined by having Ti as a second function. In other words, we are defining the types differently. I don't think the ExTp types are the ones who look at things and take them in slowely, like he claims. As extraverts, they ACT without thinking. Even if you go onto a place like ENTP.org, the ENTps there claim that they have a problem with blurting things out and talking before they have actually thought about it. Introverts generally reflect on something before they act upon it. Extraverts seem to have some troubles just sitting in one place and thinking about things.


BTW, there is absolutley nothing wrong with being an introvert.

[stevENTj]

There have been a bunch of other people who don't have a "strong Ne" who have douted there type, so I don't think that is really a vaild argument to decide someone's type on ("If he doubts his type, he is ENTp!").

You're getting confused in the abstract language. No I'm not saying that because somebody posts doubting their type that they must be ENTp because that's nonsense. A lot of people seem to have a lot of different ideas about his type. Some of it I think has some merit and others I think are a bunch of baloney. The fact that he entertains anything even if he knows its baloney too tells me he must have some seriously strong Ne, or he's just looking for attention. He says right in his posts that he likes to look at any possibility he comes across and if it doesn't pan out it only reinforces his beliefs about his true type. Sometimes I do that too - look at something that I don't think is better but look at it anyways because I want to reinforce my beliefs. I only do this rarely though. I think an ENTp does it far more frequently, or maybe constantly about one thing or another.

It was extremely hard for me to even consider that I MIGHT be an extrovert, and I thought you guys were smoking crack at first. But I figured you know more about this than I do so I considered it, with great difficulty. Reuben seems to be able to consider anything that comes up with ease. I think he has much stronger Ne than I do, and my Ne is fairly strong too.

I haven't flat out ignored him,

Ignoring, talking past each other, zooming in too much, call it whatever you want. If you zoom in too far you can easily miss the big picture, but sometimes you just need to see that too. Sometimes I'm guilty of the opposite and not zooming in enough.

I don't think the ExTp types are the ones who look at things and take them in slowely, like he claims. As extraverts, they ACT without thinking. Even if you go onto a place like ENTP.org, the ENTps there claim that they have a problem with blurting things out and talking before they have actually thought about it. Introverts generally reflect on something before they act upon it. Extraverts seem to have some troubles just sitting in one place and thinking about things.

I don't think it's accurate to state that because one is an extrovert that they act without thinking, do not take time to reflect on things, or that they can't sit in one place thinking about things. All of that would be false in my case. ENTjs in particular spend a ton of time contemplating about how they think different scenarios will play out before acting, which is what makes them good strategic leaders, such as at a business, or in the military. We're afraid to use our Se before we have sufficiently thought about things. We don't just go out and act on the spot. An extrovert that acts "without thinking" would be more the ESTp type. And who says blurting things out without thinking is "acting"? They're just voicing their Ne. I'm pretty sure a co-worker is an ENTp and he does tend to blurt things out without really thinking, but he doesn't ACT before he thinks. It's more along the lines of thinking (or voicing the possibilities) out loud.

BTW, there is absolutley nothing wrong with being an introvert.

who said there was? not I.

[FDG]

Steve,

You cannot take as a paradygm of "act before thinking" the long-range planning of a business, because this is an act that requires the thinking before acting by definition.

You should, instead, try to see at how you deal with everyday matters. That's what personality is mostly about. Statistically speaking, it doesn't matter if you think before acting when you have to do BIG decisions - these are consciously planned. Just look at the way you interact, and how you make the little everyday decisions.




P.S. The "acting" part is tricky. I define speaking as an act. Don't you?

[Rocky]

@FDG: Yes, and I agree with you.

[Creepy-]

Well, I think it's safe to say that viewing things through Si is like looking at things through a microscope. You can get a clear picture of things sometimes, but it is also possible to zoom in TOO far.

I apologize for intruding in this thread, but I have to say that the statement above is extremely accurate for me. I always "zoom" very deep into things that there's nothing in this world that I can't find flows or inconsinstencies in. And this is also the reason why I sometimes feel disgusted of EVERYTHING. I have always searched for perfection in things but have never found it. I am able to see the limits of anything and anyone and this is not a trait I am always proud of having. Sometimes I hate myself for that. Anyways, I wish you luck in your quest rmcnew and keep up the good work Rocky.

[Park]

That was me ^.

[Angel von Himmel]

I haven't flat out ignored him, I think the problem, though, is that we are misunderstanding/misinterpreting each other. We are viewing socionics differnetly. I am claiming that his thinking process is that of an *introvert*, whereas he claims he does act that way, but that his behavior should be defined by having Ti as a second function. In other words, we are defining the types differently. I don't think the ExTp types are the ones who look at things and take them in slowely, like he claims. As extraverts, they ACT without thinking. Even if you go onto a place like ENTP.org, the ENTps there claim that they have a problem with blurting things out and talking before they have actually thought about it. Introverts generally reflect on something before they act upon it. Extraverts seem to have some troubles just sitting in one place and thinking about things. BTW, there is absolutley nothing wrong with being an introvert.

Well crap, I have done about everything you described above at one time or another, both the introverted and extroverted examples. It seems to me like you tend to rely on alot of concrete examples to try to determine what is introversion and what is extroversion. Well, I do not really agree with the list and is not really useful for me. Can not say much more than that.

And as far as my answer to your question I answered the question exact and to the point to the way that it was asked. You asked how I rationalize information. How the hell can I not answer that question if I have Ti in my ego block without sounding like an introvert even if I have that as a second function? Everyone is extroverted and introverted to some degree, basically all that my statement proved was that I have Ti somewhere in a conscious block and I place confidence in it.

I do not think that we are viewing things diffrently so much as that I believe that you are taking a too concrete stance on things, plus the fact that I think you do not know what it is like to rely on alot of Ti and just assume that because someone reacts that way when they thinks means that they must have that function as a first function. Although it is true that nearly all introverts use Ti with the exception of ENTp and ESTp ...

Heck Rocky, you use Te through the roof and I do not go spouting out that you are really an ESTj and try to argue that you have Te as a first function and also extrovert on account of that even though I have been totally tempted. Would it be fair that I do that to you? It is exactly what you do to me, and I mind you that just like ISTps and INTps are the only introverts who express a great deal of Te ENTps and ESTps are the only two extroverts who use any large amount of Ti ...

So, basically what I am saying is that argueing that I could only be an introvert purely on the basis that I use alot of Ti is about as vain as me argueing that you are an extrovert because I have honestly seen you use a truckload of Te, and I am not joking when I say that you have including all through this thread.

[Creepy-squanto]

RMC, don't you have a socionics web-page? don't you consider yourself an authority? you can't even figure out if you are an INFp or ENTp? that comes across as ridiculous, I'm sorry.

[Angel von Himmel]

RMC, don't you have a socionics web-page? don't you consider yourself an authority? you can't even figure out if you are an INFp or ENTp? that comes across as ridiculous, I'm sorry.

Must be troll season again or one of those disgruntled mystery guest that keep following me around.

It is called the hidden agenda and it can make people think they are their beneficiary or illusionary, read up on it somewhere ...

[stevENTj]

RMC, don't you have a socionics web-page? don't you consider yourself an authority? you can't even figure out if you are an INFp or ENTp? that comes across as ridiculous, I'm sorry.

[Angel von Himmel]

Well, atleast this thread lasted a good day or so without the trolls ...

[diamond]

Is it marcus posting off a different computer??

[Angel von Himmel]

Is it marcus posting off a different computer??

It could be marcus or maybe even waddlesworth; both of them have been known to come onto guest accounts specifically to write belittling things about me.

[FDG]

RMC, don't you have a socionics web-page? don't you consider yourself an authority? you can't even figure out if you are an INFp or ENTp? that comes across as ridiculous, I'm sorry.

Ahahhaha, it's wunderbar

[implied]

[Scarecrow]

Christ you people are self-obsessed.