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    Question Psychological disorders confounding type identification

    I know I've brought this up before, and didn't receive much (any) constructive input to the topic. So, let's try again (this time with concrete RL examples)!

    Psychological disorders must confound the typing process, making it difficult/impossible/reducing overall certainty of type. Case in point, I used to be 90-95% sure my girlfriend was ISFj. She has rapid cycling bipolar II, we were in a long-distance relationship for 6 months of our 9 month (ongoing) relationship, and we have been living together for about a month. During the last few months, I've become less certain of her type. It's supremely difficult to differentiate her "normal" state from her hypomanic states, and I'm not sure I've witnessed a "normal" state in her; she was in a depressive episode for the first 5-6 months of our relationship, and has been more or less hypomanic since. Because we started dating during her last depressive episode, I had only that state to utilize for typing purposes. Now that she's been hypomanic, our interactions are not that of activity, but of some unknown interaction (and I'm not willing to attribute that change to the changes in our relationship, i.e. being POSSLQ and no longer in a LDR, because I noticed the change while we were still in a LDR). She's classically hypomanic, she doesn't sleep much, she's very irritable, she makes extravagant/impulsive plans, and seems always on the verge of making a major and unnecessary purchase. She seems very much unlike an ISFj, although I cannot at this time suggest an alternative typing.

    Discuss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    Psychological disorders must confound the typing process, making it difficult/impossible/reducing overall certainty of type.
    Why? Why wouldn't it make it easier instead? Do you have any empirical ground for the claim you are making here?

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    I used to be 90-95% sure my girlfriend was ISFj.
    Based on what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    Because we started dating during her last depressive episode, I had only that state to utilize for typing purposes. Now that she's been hypomanic, our interactions are not that of activity, but of some unknown interaction (and I'm not willing to attribute that change to the changes in our relationship, i.e. being POSSLQ and no longer in a LDR, because I noticed the change while we were still in a LDR).
    How on earth could you be so sure that your relation was one of Activity, even if she wouldn't have changed her mental state?

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    She's classically hypomanic, she doesn't sleep much, she's very irritable, she makes extravagant/impulsive plans, and seems always on the verge of making a major and unnecessary purchase. She seems very much unlike an ISFj, although I cannot at this time suggest an alternative typing.
    The only thing we can say for sure is that your case for ISFj seems to be very weak. You haven't made a thorough analysis of her type, and you simply don't know what her real type is. You have to start all over again -- from scratch.

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    Not that I'm a doctor but she doesn't sound rapid-cycling. I'm rapid cycling and I alternate between states in a matter of days, sometimes even over the course of a single day. 5-6 months is actually an incredibly long cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Not that I'm a doctor but she doesn't sound rapid-cycling. I'm rapid cycling and I alternate between states in a matter of days, sometimes even over the course of a single day. 5-6 months is actually an incredibly long cycle.
    yeah I'd think so too

    according to my abnormal psych text: "... qualify as rapid cycling if the person has experienced at least four episodes within the past year."

    But Bipolar II is milder than Bipolar I, so maybe thats why she doesn't souond like she had the rapid-cycling form

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    Not sure what being either ESI or sanguine has to do with rapid-cycling bipolar disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    oops.

    oh those... i score high like on all of them lol. did you see that post of mine where virtually 85% of all disorders on wiki are mine? went to a psychologist recently and he said i'm neurotic or something. wanted to treat me with hypnotherapy which i'm scared of due to a possibility of him implanting poo-poos into my head.
    I still tend to think you just have poor Se and poor Te and this is why you are somewhat detached from reality which causes your paranoias and neurosis. You don't have enough information about the reality and your imaginative mind makes up stuff to fill in the gaps. Your dual is probably an ST type of some sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    you aren't even a qualified professional to say such things. what an embarrassment. sorry, your posts kinda hurt as of late, so i'm gonna have to put you on ignore. sorry............
    haha. It wasn't hard to see this coming sooner or later so what can I say. *shrug*. You have adopted a pattern of shielding yourself from painful reality instead of facing it head on. This is the exact cause of your problems. Whether there is a real mental disorder behind it is impossible to perceive from a distance. Sooner or later you HAVE TO face it because it doesn't go away. You _cannot_ put reality on ignore. You really need to have someone stronger than you around to help you heal. It is getting obvious you cannot do it yourself. Perhaps a professional is the best choice. I still tend to think a strong dual friend could be as good or better but they are hard to find.

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    A past girlfriend of mine - ISFj - had borderline personality disorder. While in the high phase she did seem more irritable and extraverted, her type was out of question. You obviously though cannot type her based on intertype relationships because they do not work when the person has a psychological disorder of that kind, especially when you have to interact with them at a very short distance.
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    I've had a girlfriend who had seen a psychologist a couple of times and they diagnosed that she was close to bi polar.

    The near bi polar disorder didn't make the typing much more difficult.
    She was an ESFJ, although quite shy sometimes. More then the average ESFJ.

    Although I can imagine with totally different states in the case of the ISFJ it would make it hard to type her correctly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    ISFjs apparently Are very "sanguine".
    *eyes* My ISFj sister is a Melancholy. We _N_ps in the house are Sanguine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    *eyes* My ISFj sister is a Melancholy. We _N_ps in the house are Sanguine.

    Yeah, I like the sanguine people. You 'll never know what comes next with them. Specially with ENFps. Like singing in streets. Doing some really crazy philosophy based on Terry Pratchet and ending up talking about how well her new clothes feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    I know I've brought this up before, and didn't receive much (any) constructive input to the topic. So, let's try again (this time with concrete RL examples)!

    Psychological disorders must confound the typing process, making it difficult/impossible/reducing overall certainty of type. Case in point, I used to be 90-95% sure my girlfriend was ISFj. She has rapid cycling bipolar II, we were in a long-distance relationship for 6 months of our 9 month (ongoing) relationship, and we have been living together for about a month. During the last few months, I've become less certain of her type. It's supremely difficult to differentiate her "normal" state from her hypomanic states, and I'm not sure I've witnessed a "normal" state in her; she was in a depressive episode for the first 5-6 months of our relationship, and has been more or less hypomanic since. Because we started dating during her last depressive episode, I had only that state to utilize for typing purposes. Now that she's been hypomanic, our interactions are not that of activity, but of some unknown interaction (and I'm not willing to attribute that change to the changes in our relationship, i.e. being POSSLQ and no longer in a LDR, because I noticed the change while we were still in a LDR). She's classically hypomanic, she doesn't sleep much, she's very irritable, she makes extravagant/impulsive plans, and seems always on the verge of making a major and unnecessary purchase. She seems very much unlike an ISFj, although I cannot at this time suggest an alternative typing.

    Discuss.
    To my knowledge socionics was designed around primarily couples and also individuals without diagnosed mental conditions, and as such it can only accurately apply to people without personality or psychological conditions.

    I think an example of this, in regards to the example that you supply, is that in such circumstances Model A is fluid.

    What I mean by this is that the order of the functions in the person will change (or even rotate) .. The person will have dominant Fe for a while, then dominant Si etc..

    Socionics only works if the person has a more stable mental state, therefore a stable Model A = stable type and = stable intertype relations.

    As/if the person gets better, you would expect to see a more normalised personality, and hence there Model A would fall into place---more normalised order of functionality. Their type would then become more apparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    To my knowledge socionics was designed around primarily couples and also individuals without diagnosed mental conditions, and as such it can only accurately apply to people without personality or psychological conditions.

    I think an example of this, in regards to the example that you supply, is that in such circumstances Model A is fluid.

    What I mean by this is that the order of the functions in the person will change (or even rotate) .. The person will have dominant Fe for a while, then dominant Si etc..

    Socionics only works if the person has a more stable mental state, therefore a stable Model A = stable type and = stable intertype relations.

    As/if the person gets better, you would expect to see a more normalised personality, and hence there Model A would fall into place---more normalised order of functionality. Their type would then become more apparent.
    Thanks for providing a constructive and coherent reply. I was thinking somewhat along the same lines of Model A being fluid in the case of mood/personality disorders (because it seems like she's undergone a j/p flip, or something).
    INTp, ILI Logical subtype

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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    Thanks for providing a constructive and coherent reply.
    Your welcome
    I was thinking somewhat along the same lines of Model A being fluid in the case of mood/personality disorders (because it seems like she's undergone a j/p flip, or something).
    Yeah I think your right.

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    I have had problems with my mental health. I'll try to give a model to describe my experience. And what I can say from my experience is that when my libido (not sexual, but the psychic energy overall) falls down, the psychological structures will fail to work. The libido comes in from the 5th function and makes two rings working. So when the energetic input is gut off, the model A falls apart. So it will start to collide (hope there's a word such). The information inside the functions, will start to vanish. The mental activity becomes distracted because of that. And the libido runs into the painful function, where all the complexes are. So when the painful one has become the dominant function, my mental activity is filled with bad thoughts and I'm very vulnerable.

    That's how schizophrenia goes on in me.

    To start treating myself, I have always tryed to get suggestive input back. And when that has happened, I'll try to enter into the enviroment what supports me with the right information, so I can tank my model A. When I'm fulled enough, I'll be feeling better. And trying to live normal life again.

    But I also go to psychotherapy to get rid of the problems. So if others want to know, you can't do with out it. And I'm using socionics to find theories with the right informational aspects to understand myself. The last one has helped me a lot. And also taught how to act like a socialized person.

    And that's why I have dicided that my recovery plan is to find the permanent socionics enviroment . I personally can't see any other way to get things back into normal.

    So that's one way to solve the mess in your life. And perhaps the model will help someone.

    End of the monologue!
    Semiotical process

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think this is really good... i wonder if you could post your thoughts on how model A works and any similar thoughts for consideration by the intelligible socionics community registered or not, on this forum. i mean it might really add to socionics. of course i hope by doing it, you will not put excessive strain on yourself.

    Good that my self centered theory didn't feel cold and autistic.

    The model A? Actually I can't explain what it is. Perhaps like this: your type has it's own informational channel to live in and you'll be given the information into your psyche, where it rings, from dominant to the last. F.e your ENFp, then one of your channels might be studying psychology and teaching others (the ring).

    Actually, let's get further. The channels are like social roles. So it's healthy to have good roles. For ENFp, the psychologist, poet, actor, organiser of some events. And when the channel is interupted, problems will come. F.e Ti critics to counseling ENFp. And one's goal is to change the channel back to normal. Like asking ISTp friend siting near by to answer the questions instead.
    Semiotical process

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