INTj: an explanation of functional analysis

[Joy]

Hi all. I am posting this information for each type. I know the information is already available to all, but from what I've seen you have to cross reference to various charts and whatnot. This will give everyone an opportunity to see a breakdown of their type's analysis without having to cross reference. What I'd like is for people to discuss how various functions manifest themselves, such as how having for a Role function would be displayed in an INTj.



INTj

The EGO Block (1+2) Most pronounced functions, dominant over functions 3 & 4

1. Program function - also know as the "foundation," a person places the most confidence in this function, and molds his or her lifestyle to suit this function; a person's self-esteeme and feelings of worth are based on the usage of this function.

2. Creative function - also know as the "realisation," some effort is required to use this function, but it comes easy. It is the base function for a person's creativity and is used in conjunction with the 1st function.

The SUPER-EGO Block (3+4) Weak and suppressed by functions 1 & 2

3. Role function - a person may unconsciously attempt to realize this function in order to avoid the embarrassment of having the weaknesses of other functions discovered; though usually suppressed by the 1st function, it is passive and seeks not to intrude on others. A person may be sensitive to criticism in this function, and may only implement it as an informational source to aid other functions.

4. Vulnerable function - also known as the PoLR , a fragile function by which insecurities are realized, and usually suppressed by the 2nd function. If pressure is placed on this function from an outside source, a person may react with irritation or hostility. It often manifest itself in a state of severe immaturity. This function could be likened to a naked hungry and screaming baby, unable to take care of itself. Since the 3rd function neglects to inform and support, it often relies on the 6th function for protection and survival.

The SUPER-ID Block (5+6) Neglected functions by which a person allows to be manipulated by outside influences, usually assists functions 3 & 4

5. Suggestive Function - also known a "dual-seeking," this function is typically the most vulnerable to ouside influences and manipulation. It is not uncommon for a person to physically request help from another in regards to this function, as it often acts as a companion and helper to the 3rd function and indirectly to the 4th function. Sometimes a person can mistake this function for the 1st or 2nd functions.

6. Activation Function - also know as the "Hidden-agenda," this function willfully seeks to express itself and to become energized into a state of confidence or creativity. It may attempt to compete with other functions and become dominant, deceiving many to believe it is a strong and resourceful function. In reality, it often implements itself as a disguise or a feint intended to feed, cloth, and protect other functions. It could be considered a parental function to the childish and immature 4th function. Often a person can mistake this function for the 1st or 2nd functions.

The ID Block (7+8) Weak and unconscious functions, usually ignored or seen as intrusive. The actual existance of these functions has been questioned.

7. Control Function - easy function for a person to spot in others and to criticise.

8. Standard Function - a person needs guidance to realise this function, if at all.

[Kristiina]

I have tried many times, but I just don't understand the functions. I only understand the general point - if one ability is strong, then others are weaker. And there are two that are the strongest.

Is there any way to summarize the difference of introverted and extroverted thinking?
Thinking is (in my understanding) the ability to use logic before anything else. Person only believes in stuff that she reaches by thinking in logical connections. Extroverted is when she interacts with the outside world, so could be the tendency to use logic in conversations... ? And is when the person is thinking by herself?! But there can be no talking without thinking first, so the person must still say what she thinks. And if the person thinks about the world by using logic, but only says stuff that she reached by being Intuitive, does it mean that she is rarely able to use logic in general conversation?

Or does TiNe just mean that I am Thinking when I'm alone and I'm Intuitive when I'm with other people?!

As you can see, I'm a very confused person. Whenever I try to understand the whole thing, I get lost in the words. I need the visual, but there is no visual is pages and pages of words. And I have been unable to create the visual because I just don't understand it. And then I let other information settle and I try again... and I am lost in words in about 5 minutes. None of it makes sense and everything is described with so many different random abilities and habits.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Creepy-Diana]

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[Zeia]

http://www.mdani.demon.co.uk/wword/types.htm

The symbols are all symbols of the different Jungian functions
Introverted Sensing
Introverted iNtuition
Introverted Feeling
Extraverted iNtuition
Introverted Thinking
Extroverted Thinking
Extraverted Sensing
Extraverted Feeling

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Zeia]

The functions manifest themselves in different ways, usually your top two are your two dominant ones, its easiest to make generalizations after that with those and then narrow it down with description and knowledge of each of the functions, the 1-8 parts of the psyche dont go from highest to lowest because certain parts can be different by each. Usually your PoLR is lowest? (Someone correct me if thats wrong) So its easiest to learn all of those functions, then look at what each of the numbers do with each of those. Then you can get closer to your type.

[Zeia]

This may help:
http://the16types.info/models.php
-Explanation of order and which number does what.
http://the16types.info/typesview.php
-Types and order of functions in that type.

[mimisor]

Is there any way to summarize the difference of introverted and extroverted thinking?

Here's a bit of info also from this forum:

"When a function is introverted it appears to form correlations and associations with past experiences and memories, when a function is extraverted it correlates with actual experience, what is going on in the here and now.

So one can deduce that introversion corresponds with associations, extraversion corresponds with practicality, what is real and tangible."


And for an explanation of the displaying of the functions (the model A)

here's a very good and comprehensible explanation

http://www.socioniko.net/en/1.1.types/model-a.html

no need to be confused, anymore :wink:

edit: direct link

[Kristiina]

I studied it again. I looked through all the links and I also looked through the explanation in an Estonian web-page. I understand much more. The last link, by gugu_ baba, was the most helpful. Joys post actually started to make sense for me. Now I have a vague understanding of the functions as well.

I still don't have a deeper understanding or any ability to make conclusions based on the functions.

I still haven't found any reasonable explanation about the functions. I found one helpful article: INTj or INTp? by Sergei Ganin
http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm
He just mentions the meanings of different functions. It helps a lot.


------------------------------
PS! I was away for holidays. Visited my family and the family of my INTp boyfriend. (still dazzled that we shouldn't even get along and still doing perfectly fine). Couldn't really reply in the forums.

[Creepy-]

how are these an "explanation of functional analysis"? how are you explaining functional analysis? isn't more, um, "type descriptions by function"?

Do you even know what functional analysis is?

[cjcoldmine]

Functional analysis is the study of functions as vector spaces

[Kristiina]

Thanks a lot, Guest, now I'm confused again.

If you are saying that the functions , , , , , etc can't be analysed individually, then I see no point in studying it at all. If has a completely different meaning depending on the type you are describing, then it's just pointless. The strength of a certain function is different depending on the type, but ability itself has to stay the same.


And cjcoldmine. Although I like math and vectors, that just went over my head. It could be the fact that it's 1am here.

I found one more link. It explains every function. http://www.cognitiveprocesses.com/ex...intuiting.html
EDIT: This web site isn't helping. Too many words. Can't remember that with simple terms.

[cjcoldmine]

Don't worry about it, Kristiina. It's highly advanced math, which I'm certain you've never seen before. But don't worry about it going over your head. I couldn't resist the opportunity to make that post.

[Creepy-me not logged in]

It's highly advanced math, which I'm certain you've never seen before. But don't worry about it going over your head.

I think I would punch someone if they dared say something like that to me, of all the nerve. People who act all superior just drive me nuts!

Diana

[cjcoldmine]

It's highly advanced math, which I'm certain you've never seen before. But don't worry about it going over your head.

I think I would punch someone if they dared say something like that to me, of all the nerve. People who act all superior just drive me nuts!

Diana

It's not about acting superior. It's advanced math, and she hasn't seen it before. I know next to nothing about it, and I'm a math major. In fact, the only time anyone would come across functional analysis is in a PhD program for mathematics.

That's why I told her to not worry about it. So don't go having any kittens because I said someone hasn't seen a particular area of math before. If something I said offended you (which apparently did), then that's your problem.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Kristiina]

so much fuss about nothing. Typical.

[Kirana]

i've read the link given by gugu baba too. i think i really am a socionics INTj. is it possible for an MBTI INTJ to also be a socionics INTj (and not INTp), given that the functions are defined slightly differently in both systems?

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Kristiina]

i've read the link given by gugu baba too. i think i really am a socionics INTj. is it possible for an MBTI INTJ to also be a socionics INTj (and not INTp), given that the functions are defined slightly differently in both systems?

I had the exact same question some time ago and here it is:
oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=626

so much fuss about nothing. Typical.

Yeah, I've been under a lot of stress lately, and it's showing up in the weirdest places.

Don't worry about it, happens to everybody. I just wanted to say something, because I was mildly involved. Have some mint tea with sugar. Mint tea is tasty!

[Joy]

More on the 7th and 8th functions from http://socion.info/miscmodelofthepsyche.html

ID Block The ID block primarily controls instinctual impulses. As a child, a person remains under the primary influence of the ID. However, Because of their nature, the functions within the ID Block cannot compete against the functions within the EGO block. Though they are typically very strong, the influence of the functions within the EGO Block may cause a person to disregard them and in result, feel that they are exceptionally weak and useless. An adult person may never really know that they have them as strength; some may even deny their very existence. However, a person is more likely to disregard the 8th function than they are to disregard the 7th function. Theoretically, This may result in that a person could have a conscious idea of the effects of their 1st function, and can discern the introverted and extroverted aspects of the function and their strengths with little effort. Yet the 2nd requires some effort, and may cloak the strengths of the 8th; it may never fully function in result. A person under strong influence of this block may appear irresponsible, uncaring, selfish, conceited, and arrogant.

Strong, Subconscious, Accepting - 7th function - the seventh function manifests itself as an instrument of instinctual aggression, intended to serve and protect the basic interest of an individual. A person wants, and wants immediately. In result, a person under the influence of this function may subconsciously reproduce and model behaviors that appear arrogant, haughty, conceited, selfish, or inconsiderate in relation to the function involved.

Strong, Subconscious, Producing - 8th function - Without the suppression of the second function, this function needs guidance, as it must use a concrete means to manage itself. When unrestrained, a person may realize this function chaotically and without self-control, appearing indulgent and uncanny. People under the influence of the 8th function may have no direction and no productive aims or goals besides the self-gratification of the manifested function involved.

[Kirana]

thank you! thank you thank you joy!

i am now convinced that i am a socionics INTj. provided that this conclusion is correct - that the ID block functions are also strong functions, only that they are typically disregarded because of the dominance of the EGO block functions. because, my Ni does pop up sporadically in a quite random fashion, in the sense that once in a while i get the prescient ability usually attributed to INTps. but 'the rest of me' tends to regard these occurrences as uncanny - an insight important enough to listen to, but otherwise an anomaly to my usual self.

plus, i can't see that my Ne would fit the role and description of the 7th function, but my Te certainly does.

that settles it then. i haven't wandered into the wrong quadra after all.

[Kirana]

just had a thought: does this mean that my strong Ne is responsible for my ability to cross-apply learnings and knowledge to areas they were not originally acquired/intended for? is this why i find it so easy to make a few skills do the work of many?

[mimisor]

Here we go again.

Kristiina, have you also checked these threads

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1372->a day in the life of an INTp

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...?t=787&start=0->INTps who act extreoverted

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic-195.html->INTp or INTj the question resolved once and for all


Also I'd add a personal approach to the issue, hihi
Q: Are you clumsy with anything it has to do with hands and it bothers you a lot or you find it particulary stressful? Then you are an INTj or (INFj of course :wink

INTps have the related function (Se) in their subconcious, so it doesn't trouble them

[Joy]

Aren't INTjs naturals with video games though?

[Kirana]

ah, but what kind of video games?

butting in, gugu, sorry. what do you mean by "anything it has to do with hands"?

[ILENTp]

edit

[mimisor]

ah, but what kind of video games?

butting in, gugu, sorry. what do you mean by "anything it has to do with hands"?

Oh, I was pointing to the PoLR, which for INTjs and INFjs is Se.
I thought it's a good method to say if you are an INTp or INTj.
It's about feeling uneasy and uncomfortable with your phisical existence and awarness of your phisical existence after all, that's it
OK maybe I don't know how to explain it. Is it really just me??? Just think about it and tell me.


ENTJs (my brother) are even better with strategy games and video games in general. Seriously.

[Kirana]

ah, awareness of my physical existence? well, why didn't you say so in the new thread?

this is addendum to my reply on the other thread.

now that does strike a nerve. d'you know, i was barely aware that i had a physical body until i was about 17, at which time i realised that since it was organic and physical, it requires proper care and maintenance. of course, i knew i inhabited a physical body, it's just that i didn't much pay attention to it, like it's not very important, and sometimes inconvenient. i often feel like my body slows me down. when i am depressed, i often want to retreat into my mind, and having to keep my body going becomes a detestable chore.

i think that's partly why i joined the navy reserves in university. i hated the fact that i didn't know what to do with my body. i think subconsciously i wanted to be forced to acknowledge my physical existence and to rely on it and see if i could do it.

sometimes, when i'm absorbed in something, or depressed, i am hardly aware of my physical surroundings, and my timekeeping deteriorates. it becomes inconvenient to be bound in the physical world, and subject to the flow of time. i always view my mind as separate from my body. though... i do want to try and maintain my physical body better than i have been doing. it's going to carry me around for a while, and i'd like it to be reliable and fit for purpose.

so, what do you think? INTj? INTp?

[mimisor]

YES that's it Kirana! You're DEFINETELY an INTj. That's the answer I was looking for. Thank you for explaining it in such detail, I couldn't have done it better! I'm glad I'm not alone in the world!

i often feel like my body slows me down... i hated the fact that i didn't know what to do with my body.

EXACTLY!, and that's precisely why we don't like to receive orders, because we are aware of the Se (force - volitional sensorics) as the greatest weakness and we try to enhance it by ourselves, without others making suggestions in this direction or helping in any way. I for one, I prefer to assume the tasks involving Se by myself.

i always view my mind as separate from my body

I totally know what you mean!!!

[Rocky]

Well, as a general rule, the SFs are the most in touch with how their bodies feel, and the NTs are the least in touch with their bodies. The perceivers are more in touch with their irrational functions, which has to do with the physical world (sight, sound, etc...), and the Introverts are more detached from the outside world. If you take all of this together, it would seem like the INTjs are the least in touch, physically, how they relate to the outside world, and the ESFps are the most in touch with their bodies and the outside world.

[Kristiina]

For me, learning dancing was really difficult. It took a looong time, but I love doing it. Listening to the right music coming from high-quality speakers is such a thrill for me. I want to express it. But when I felt really insecure about my dancing, I just sat and secretly moved my leg in beat... The last time I met with my partying friends, I was actually told that I was the best/second best dancer there (by 2 different people. the second person thought that my ENFj sister dances better. I'm ok with that knowledge.) Hearing compliments about it felt really good. I's soooo proud of myself.
...Me, me, me... I's so self-absorbed, it's awful

I didn't understand for a long time, why INTjs should be obsessed with their bodies. I understand it better now. But I must admit that I wouldn't go on a diet for a better figure. I'd rather tell myself that skinny people often can't have babies and that sure ain't healthy.
me,me, me....

[mimisor]

I'm not obssessed with my body in that way, like keeping diets to look better or whatever (is that weak Si ?), I don't even need one, I just don't like too much attention towards it and feel uncomfortable when I am under such situations. (that's for sure weak Se!)

It seems like people mix around Si and Se

Thanks Rocky for intervention.

[Kirana]

ENTJs (my brother) are even better with strategy games and video games in general. Seriously.

i'm great at strategy games, though. i was a kickass RTS player - but i don't play anymore since i started working. and i didn't like it when the RTS games start being more 'swarming' than strategy. i switched to RPGs when i started working because they can be shelved and continued more easily than RTS - because the latter is real-time and kind of more addictive. i get my strategy fix from RPGs through the character development and balancing team dynamics.

my ESTP brother is better than me at games of the first-person shooter, simulations, and some RTS genres. he's great at balancing things that need to be done simultaneously and quickly. and especially good at playing an entire team of characters - i swear when you watch him play, it looks like there are four players for the four characters, they really behave individually and display teamwork. but i'm better at him in warfare games at levels where you can't win easily save by an unusual change in conventional tactics, and in any empire building games (coz he has no patience for long-term strategy).

sigh... i miss having lots of time for games.

[Creepy-]

1. Program function - also know as the "foundation," a person places the most confidence in this function, and molds his or her lifestyle to suit this function; a person's self-esteeme and feelings of worth are based on the usage of this function.

It's hip to be

[nobrainer]

UDP: not your usual INTj ....?

UDP: not fucking INTj period!

[Kirana]

It's hip to be

it is?!

[Creepy-]

UDP: not your usual INTj ....?

UDP: not fucking INTj period!

As you wish. (you probably should calm down, though)




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I cannot stand having to sleep, and often go for as long as I can without sleep. It is much more enjoyable, that way, at least sleeping feels like something that needs to be done at that point. Eating is the same way, too, sometimes it's all just....... intereuptions.........

i always view my mind as separate from my body

Iview my mind as separate from my body, and everything else, too.

it is?! Shocked Confused

I make it work for myself, so yes, I think so.

[Creepy-]

I think the best part, well, one of them, about being an INTj, is being able to move in ways that other people don't. Once, as an INTj, you grow a pair, then basically the world is yours. At least that's how it feels sometimes, because you understand 'the world', and ultimately understand the truth behind this intially apparent "alienation"... But...... I only speak for myself.