Type reconsideration

[snegledmaca]

I'm pretty sure you claimed you were IEI ever since I was here, and now, quite recently, you've changed your mind. But it's a massive step. I really don't see how you can go from a Te PoLR to a Te ego type.

First, it was not recent. It followed from my progression of my understanding of socionics so please don't project your own type change practices onto me.

Second, regarding IEI, there were always things that didn't fit. Like Ni dominance or Te PoLR. But overall it was, and still is, the best explanation. It's the only thing for which the relationships, more or less, fit.

And what I "claim" is irrelevant. It's what I can show to be correct that matters. And I'm not "going" for anything.

[Ezra]

Whatever. This issue no longer concerns me.

[snegledmaca]

Whatever. This issue no longer concerns me.

Then you shouldn't have brought it up.

[snegledmaca]

Ok, so after talking to nifweed we have come to a conclusion about my type which would be SLI.

For the most part it's based on my values and preferences. I seem to have a strong delta quadra value system with a strong preference for Te/Fi and on Si and a need for Ne. I also have a ESE – SLI relationship with my mother and have an IP temperament. Here is a breakdown of it.

Fi

I expect people to make their own choices but at the same time be considerate of others. Like when we are in a group. We should all present the choice we truly want, nobody should feel pressured to think, make a choice a certain way. And nobody should be favored in any way, nobodies' opinions should take precedence, everybody's stances should be of equal relevance and addressed equally. And then if there is no consensus, after a discussion reach a decision, not after a power struggle or anything of the like. The compromise should be reached though objective examination of all the relevant things. And, of course, it should be agreed upon, accepted by people individually, in no way as a group.

When making choices I always try to be aware and take into consideration my impact on others. How it will affect them. Their opinions. This is important to me and it really bothers me when people are not like this. I feel as if they are dictating others people choices as they are effectively removing their input or are ignoring their wishes. I have a tendency to stop this whenever I see it happening. Personally, I may tolerable it but I find it unacceptable when it is done onto others.

Fe

I expect people to not in any way form or manner make accommodation for group pressure, expectations, spirit and the like. People should feel free to pursue their own thing even if it is at the group's disadvantage. An example from a while ago, a friend decided he would rather be spending time with another group of friends who were all primitive idiots. Another friend had issues with this and basically renounced him saying things like well if he likes them so much more then us he can have them, because we don't want him. I on the other hand felt glad that he was being himself and absolutely not yielding to group pressure, expectations, the he would just up and go if he decided he wanted to. That is the kind of mentality I support and expect when dealing with people. That they will not feel pressured by the company I am in or yield to the pressures of such a company.

I also try to remove any form of group pressure on the individual. I place the individual in front of any group.

I detest group mentality. I have expressed this before many times. Anything having it like sporting events, gangs and the like I utterly despise. The mindless beer drinking barbaric mentality. The herds of mindless zombies feeding off of each others lack of individuality and their existence, purpose dictated by the group. And being happy like that, loving every second of it. I will never understand that.

I actively and naturally try to break up any kind of group cohesion forming. Like if I tend to notice somebody acting as if their choice is stronger, better, has more weight and starts submitting others around them into a following of some kind. I actively and openly defy them, straight off the bat, to show people that this person has no authority over them and that nobody and nothing should have authority over them.

I'm not emotionally expressive. Not really. I mean, I can go aww that's so cute and stuff but that would be more of a physical reaction then an emotional expression. This can especially be a problem if it is expected of me as I do not perform, live to the expectations. An example, when growing up I had a problem with creative writing in that it was too emotionally unexpressive. I was the only person who used to get the worst grade, fail the assignment, not because he was lazy or did not try, but because I really couldn't get any better. I really did give my best and still would fail miserably. I almost failed the class. Was saved by my teacher, an ESE, who basically gave me a pass because if she didn't it would've screwed up my life as I wouldn't have been able to get into college and stuff. Sufficient to say, emotional expression is just not my thing.

Si

Above all else I value comfort and security. And example of this, some time ago I use to hang out with a two friends. We use to go to the same place every time. For me the these outings were very nice, the place was really pretty, we would easily get comfortable places to sit, they had those swings, it had a sea view looking at the harbor and in general the surrounding scenery very really nice. I liked going there. However, those two were constantly fighting. The IEE wanted change, the SEE wanted to hear none of it, we're staying here and that's final was his response. But I didn't care. Whenever they tried to get me to be the tie breaker I always said, I'm comfortable. The SEE took that as support for his stance and would claim a "win". Anyway, the IEE eventually left and so did I with him leaving the SEE, but the IEE told me how that when looking back he hated those outings, we always use to go to the same place, do the same thing and that he would always fight with the SEE. I told him I just noticed now relaxing and comfortable it was for me, I didn't even notice them fighting.

I like to do what I what when I want it at a leisurely, relaxing pace and in a leisurely relaxing manner. And when I do something I do it from the standpoint of how relaxing it will be, as in, how stressful the task will be for me. I avoid stress at all costs and prefer to spend my time engaged in leisurely activities. Low pace stuff that brings me pleasure, satisfaction. Like working on my hobbies. I spend most of my free time on that.

Se

Pressure, expectations I cannot stand. The fighting back, fighting to stay afloat. Challenges. I see these things as poison, suffocation. I view such things as fundamentally wrong and naturally tend towards removing them completely from my environment.

I have never taken a risk in my life. When encountering risks I defuse them, remove them or avoid them. In general if there is a risk then there is something fundamentally wrong with the situation.

Hierarchy in personal settings is unthinkable for me. Like say friends, family and the like. I treat people equally and if people demand of me to treat them as more special, more valuable then other people I generally tend not to do it. I will do it only if the deserve it, if find it to be justified.

[snegledmaca]

Ni

I take life as it comes, as in, as it is right now. I deal with things as they arise and think about problems when they arise. I also tend to also notice problems only when they show up, generally don't expect them. I don't think about the future or the past, and for the most part I'm content being right here where I am and also for the most part focus on that.

I don't spend time in my imagination or head. I mean, I think about things and fantasize, but I spend most of my time engaged in my hobbies, wasting time on the net, doing my chores and so on. For the most part I do stuff that either needs to be done right now or I want to do them right now. Generally I don't plan my activities, when I do things it's because I want to do them, right now. And also my activities mostly revolve around how convenient they are to me, how comfortable I feel doing them.

Ne

I seem to rely on other people to give me insights, opinions, choices. Basically I can't come up with anything new myself and need other people to expose me to them. Like expose me to new experiences, people and so on. One example is when I basically had a choice to hang out with a group of people who always did the same thing, in a group, and we never met new people, but we did have fun together and so on, or this other friend who had lots of new people and places he went to. I picked the other friend because he exposed me to new people and new places, experiences, while the other group of friends totally downplayed this and basically shut it off completely. The thing is I found them unsettling, the willingness to newer explore anything new, it was unnatural. It felt like I was limiting myself, especially with the other choice readily available. Another example of this was when I, again, took the choice of this friend over another friend. I meantioned it earlier in the SEE and IEE friend example. In essence the SEE never exposed me to anything new, all he had to offer was determination and a lack of imagination. Utterly unappealing.

I respond negatively to other people's initiative, when they push me to do things, want me to do things. I naturally resist them. I for the most part have my own incentive, which is to do why own thing in my own way at my own pace. However I respond very beneficially to people presenting me with choices with no obligation or pressure of any kind. Like, giving me insights, various alternatives, considerations. I like that. And prefer that over you will do this type of response to my insecurity. Those just leave me sour and bitter.

Te

I approach things in a very unemotional manner. And seem to naturally reject any form of Fe reasoning. Regarding Si. For example, my mother always uses the argument other people are doing it when I ask her why I should do a specific thing. That's just inane reasoning to me. Just because other people are doing it doesn't mean it can be applied to me and why the hell would I think about what other people are thinking, feeling. They make their own choices, independently of myself. I might examine trends and the like, but that's seems just a waste of time to me. I much prefer to determine things from objective criteria like what the conditions are, what the factors are, how they intertwine, interact with each other. You know, through observing my environment and coming to my own conclusions about things. Looking and just seeing other people do it is not good enough for me.

I naturally approach tasks and problems by dividing them into manageable sections and then devising some sort of algorithm, method for dealing with them. I also tend to approach everything like this, work assignments, creativity, human relations and so on.

I have a knack for managing my spaces. I guess this would be more of a Si thing, but I have absolutely no problem with organization of my spaces and am quite good at it and it comes naturally.

In general, I have no problems with organization of any kind and when in company tend to take the initiative in this filed of activity. For example I'm the guy that organizes our goings out on weekends. In general I tend to unconsciously take lead here and can sometimes seem pushy, domineering, assertive because of it. And I help people with it as well. When they have problems I give them advice, tips and so on. Try to give a hand on solution on the spot as well. But I can sometimes get carried away and "grab" the project from them.

And when I am like this I feel energized. I like managing things and it comes naturally. However, still at my own pace, tempo, which is with no stress and with maximum enjoyment along the way.

Ti

For the most part I treat systems and rules and regulations with disrespect and opt for optimizing things. Or, if some rule is holding me back I will not keep it for the sake of consistency or the like, I'll place it aside as obsolete or inadequate or redundant or something like that. Just not bother with it. In general the structure does not concern me as much as the result, the structures purpose, output.

I embrace new innovative ideas, especially if they seem out there. Those are my favorite finds.

I have no problem in appearing to be irrational by considering things that have no grounds in the current context, like being convinced I'm IEI and then out of the blue considering my conflictor as a type alternative.

My relationship with my mother

Written it here. It points to a Fe/Fi conflict, and in general to a ESE – SLI relationship.

IP temperament

My behavior is taciturn and introvert. At least that's what nifweed noticed. Personally I'm not really convinced on this one. I'm more swayed by the relationship I have with my mother.

Oh, and I should also probably mention this description I made here is of myself.

[Park]

You are the snowy ice cat type.

[snegledmaca]

You are the snowy ice cat type.

No, I'm a kitten. A snowy ice kitten

[Phaedrus]

So, everything turned out as expected in the end. Based on our analysis in that other thread, and your new analysis here (based on your discussion with niffweed), and based on everything you have said about yourself in the past, we now know for sure that you are either SLI or ILI, and that you cannot be any other type than one of those two.

I can accept that you are an SLI, if you accept that you are an Artisan SP in Keirsey's model and not a Rationalist NT, and that you belong to the socionic ST Club. Some of the things you say here about your attitudes to certain people in certain situations are actually more conisistent with SLI than ILI, so it makes sense -- but only if you admit that you are not a Rational NT.

[Park]

No, I'm a kitten. A snowy ice kitten

Of course you are, it's just my bad croatian.

[aestrivex]

one of the things about snegledmaca and his mother is that she seems to incessantly harass him about her conception of how he should live his life. for instance, the kinds of comments that might be thrown around include "you should go out and have fun" or "you should eat three meals a day at regular times, because it's good for you." the former comment is a rather obvious point of Fe, and one which snegledmaca seems to find absolutely irrelevant -- for him, his ability to enjoy a situation is more about the activity and the people involved, and he doesn't find any innate need to socialize or do anything in particular (this may also be something of a clue as to Si > Ni, given some of what Se dual seeking might entail).

the latter comment about "you should eat meals at regular times" i see as an entirely Ti/Si argument. his mother has some conception about when he should eat based on Ti (ie you must eat 3 meals a day, at 8 AM, 12 PM, and 7 PM, and if you don't things will be bad.) IME this kind of bullshit is typical of ESEs. snegledmaca, with his confidence in Si, is able to say, "no; you're wrong. i don't need to do that. i know when i'm hungry and i'll eat then." the Ti structure of his mother's argument is not even slightly compelling to his perspective.


also in terms of discussing the differences between Si and Ni, he seemed to identify far more with what i was describing as Si. it wasn't necessarily very conclusive because it largely seemed like he all of the Si i was talking about was impersonal and straight out of a textbook, but he was largely able to find himself in it -- for example, he says that he enjoys walking to perceive the scenery and takes an active awareness of physical things that are going on his external environment, such as the construction of a new building where there was none before. that's the sort of thing i might happen to notice but wouldn't focus on particularly, and given that there are a number of new buildings going up near my house, i've completely lost awareness of what's where.

also, he's very inclined to look after his own comfort and claims to dislike hostility, aggression, stressful situations, or being pushed to do anything.


what else...

one thing that snegledmaca seems relatively reticent about but which i notice very starkly is his introversion and lack of propensity to be in active communication. much like myself, snegledmaca is very much at home in unstructured inaction. he isn't readily inclined to communicate his ideas, and he seems to confine himself within his own inner world. in fact, in talking to him, i think i was playing more of the role of an extrovert than he was -- although perhaps this has to do with my role of sort of "socionics guide" in trying to help him understand various concepts.

i associate all of this with markedly clear introversion and IP temperament. the possibility of LSE was being thrown around a lot, but one of the problems that i find with it is that he's not inclined to be active and energetic like an LSE might at all. he's extremely relaxed and "take things as they come" in terms of his overall demeanor.

[Phaedrus]

for him, his ability to enjoy a situation is more about the activity and the people involved, and he doesn't find any innate need to socialize or do anything in particular (this may also be something of a clue as to Si > Ni, given some of what Se dual seeking might entail).

It indicates IP temperament, but not necessarily Si > Ni.

the latter comment about "you should eat meals at regular times" i see as an entirely Ti/Si argument. his mother has some conception about when he should eat based on Ti (ie you must eat 3 meals a day, at 8 AM, 12 PM, and 7 PM, and if you don't things will be bad.) IME this kind of bullshit is typical of ESEs.

Unwarranted assumption again. That kind of attitude is also typical of, for example, LSIs.

snegledmaca, with his confidence in Si, is able to say, "no; you're wrong. i don't need to do that. i know when i'm hungry and i'll eat then." the Ti structure of his mother's argument is not even slightly compelling to his perspective.

Where exactly do you see evidence for the assumption that he has confidence in Si? The aspects you point to are no evidence for what you claim.

also in terms of discussing the differences between Si and Ni, he seemed to identify far more with what i was describing as Si. it wasn't necessarily very conclusive because it largely seemed like he all of the Si i was talking about was impersonal and straight out of a textbook, but he was largely able to find himself in it -- for example, he says that he enjoys walking to perceive the scenery and takes an active awareness of physical things that are going on his external environment, such as the construction of a new building where there was none before. that's the sort of thing i might happen to notice but wouldn't focus on particularly, and given that there are a number of new buildings going up near my house, i've completely lost awareness of what's where.

Weak evidence. It could be due to many random factors, such as a particular interest in some aspect of something. Wittgenstein was an architect himself, but he was not therefore an SLI. He was an ILI like you (and as a sidenote the ILI type is called the "Architect" by Keirsey the Moron).

also, he's very inclined to look after his own comfort and claims to dislike hostility, aggression, stressful situations, or being pushed to do anything.

To dislike stressful situations and being pushed to do something is a clear indication of IP temperament in general but doesn't tell us anything about particular functions. To dislike hostility and aggression could perhaps indicate SLI > ILI, but that argument is not very strong.

one thing that snegledmaca seems relatively reticent about but which i notice very starkly is his introversion and lack of propensity to be in active communication. much like myself, snegledmaca is very much at home in unstructured inaction.

All three of us are identical in that respect.

he isn't readily inclined to communicate his ideas, and he seems to confine himself within his own inner world. in fact, in talking to him, i think i was playing more of the role of an extrovert than he was -- although perhaps this has to do with my role of sort of "socionics guide" in trying to help him understand various concepts.

You describe the exact same role I tend to have in some of my interactions with other clear introverts, but it doesn't tell us much about which exact type he is. The phenomenon can be caused by a number or insignificant factors, such as diffrences in age, education, etc.

i associate all of this with markedly clear introversion and IP temperament.

Correct. That snegledmaca is an ITP type is a proven fact ...

the possibility of LSE was being thrown around a lot, but one of the problems that i find with it is that he's not inclined to be active and energetic like an LSE might at all. he's extremely relaxed and "take things as they come" in terms of his overall demeanor.

... and therefore he cannot be an LSE or any other of the 14 non-ITP types.

[aestrivex]

phaedrus shut up. i'm not looking at your arguments.

[Phaedrus]

phaedrus shut up. i'm not looking at your arguments.

Who cares about what you are looking at or not? I state the truth, and if you decide to not see it, that's your problem.

[snegledmaca]

Who cares about what you are looking at or not? I state the truth, and if you decide to not see it, that's your problem.

There is a difference between stating the truth and this





You basically only do the second as of recent. Really, don't do it here, you're clogging the thread.

[Phaedrus]

You basically only do the second as of recent. Really, don't do it here, you're clogging the thread.

No, I'm not. If you look at what I have actually said in this thread, if you look at the arguments that I have presented, you will realize that everything I have said is correct so far. I was right about your type from the start (that your self-image was inconsistent with IEI), and now the only problem that is left is to determine with certainty if you are an SLI (the current hypothesis) or if you are an ILI (which is still a strong hypothesis and the most consistent with what you have said about yourself in the past).

So, are you an SP Artisan and a member of the Socionics Club of STs, or do you still identify with being an NT Rational and a member of the Socionics Club of NT Researchers? That piece of the puzzle must fit, and if it does, the case can then be closed.

[Ezra]

I was right about your type from the start (that your self-image was inconsistent with IEI), and now the only problem that is left is to determine with certainty if you are an SLI (the current hypothesis) or if you are an ILI (which is still a strong hypothesis and the most consistent with what you have said about yourself in the past).

Just out of interest, what is snegledmaca's self-image?

So, are you an SP Artisan and a member of the Socionics Club of STs, or do you still identify with being an NT Rational and a member of the Socionics Club of NT Researchers? That piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily need to fit, and if it does, the case can then be closed.

[Phaedrus]

That piece of the puzzle doesn't necessarily need to fit

If you really believe that, you don't understand the nature of the types. (Anyone heard that old song before? It's actuallly an evergreen.)

[Ezra]

If you really believe that, you don't understand the nature of the types.

We should start a poll. Who sides with me about the temperaments, and who sides with you.

[Park]

Phaedrus should use that as his avatar.

[snegledmaca]

Phaedrus should use that as his avatar.

And some other people from this site.

[Park]

And some other people from this site.

like me, for instance. right?

[Phaedrus]

Are you afraid that your current typing of yourself as SLI might be wrong, snegledmaca? Why don't you answer the question? Do you identify with the Artisan temperament now? Will you stop this crap that you are a Rational NT? Or do you still identify with being an INTP in Keirsey and/or MBTT? Tell us which it is now, so that we can accept your correct type.

[snegledmaca]

like me, for instance. right?

Lol, no.

Are you afraid that your current typing of yourself as SLI might be wrong, snegledmaca? Why don't you answer the question? Do you identify with the Artisan temperament now? Will you stop this crap that you are a Rational NT? Or do you still identify with being an INTP in Keirsey and/or MBTT? Tell us which it is now, so that we can accept your correct type.

What the hell is this, are you afraid, stop this crap, belittling, belittling, intimidation? You know what phaedrus, why don't you treat me with respect and not try to boss me around. I know I posted that picture, but that was to knock some sense into you, to give you a perception of how you're acting as of late, as I really do feel you need it.

Now, even though I find the items you focus upon completely and utterly irrelevant in terms of socionics, I will engage them as they seem to be important to you and not because "I was forced by circumstances of correctness into submission", or in other words, forced by you.

I have never claimed I was a kiersayan rational. Or idealist. I always said I though I was an artisan. Or perhaps a guardian. And I told you this so I don't know where you are coming from with the claims that I claimed I was a kiersayan rationalist. And in terms of MBTI type the xNTP type did and still does fit the best in terms of myself.

Now, with this said, I'll go to discussing socionics. Actually, I'm not convinced I am SLI. If we put my relationship with my mother aside, it makes more sense that I'm actually LSE from my relations. I've seen how my IEE friend interacts with my SEI friend in terms of Si/Ne interaction, they move each other, complement each other. I don't have that with my IEE friend. And I seriously doubt I have a dual relation with him. I just don't psychologically complement him a way his dual would. This makes me doubt SLI.

[Phaedrus]

What the hell is this, are you afraid, stop this crap, belittling, belittling, intimidation? You know what phaedrus, why don't you treat me with respect and not try to boss me around.

Why don't you answer my questions? That is showing disrespect when you know how important those questions are. We still don't which type you are, and you are not helping us to get to know it, if you don't bother to answer those questions.

I know I posted that picture, but that was to knock some sense into you, to give you a perception of how you're acting as of late, as I really do feel you need it.

You will never succeed in knocking some sense into me by doing such things. But I haven't thought about the picture at all. I have only thought about the fact that you don't answer the most relevant questions. That is the only thing I care about here. I want to know your correct type once and for all. Why are'nt you more interested in solving that problem? How can you stand not knowing which type you are?

I have never claimed I was a kiersayan rational. Or idealist. I always said I though I was an artisan. Or perhaps a guardian. And I told you this so I don't know where you are coming from with the claims that I claimed I was a kiersayan rationalist.

If you believe that you are an Artisan, and identify with it, that's fine. Then we have no problem with that.

And in terms of MBTI type the xNTP type did and still does fit the best in terms of myself.

No, it doesn't. That's a logical contradiction. So, there is still something wrong with your perception of yourself. That problem must be fixed. If you want to believe that you are an SLI, you have to stop identifying with xNTP and start identifying with SLI and ISTP type descriptions (at least the former).

Now, with this said, I'll go to discussing socionics. Actually, I'm not convinced I am SLI. If we put my relationship with my mother aside, it makes more sense that I'm actually LSE from my relations.

The only reasonable conclusion to draw from that observation is that you don't understand the intertype relations, or at least that they are totally unreliable as a typing tool for you to use. Because you know for certain that you are not an LSE.

I've seen how my IEE friend interacts with my SEI friend in terms of Si/Ne interaction, they move each other, complement each other. I don't have that with my IEE friend. And I seriously doubt I have a dual relation with him. I just don't psychologically complement him a way his dual would. This makes me doubt SLI.

All that is totally irrelevant now. You should forget everything you think that you know about intertype relations. You cannot trust any of it. Nothing at all. You have to determine which type you are by other means, that's the only possible way forward at this point.

You are either an SLI or an ILI. No other type should EVER AGAIN be seriously considered by you or anyone else. We know for sure that you are an IP type, and we know for sure that you are not an ethical type. That means exactly what I have said: SLI or ILI. Now, which one is it?

[snegledmaca]

[...]
But I haven't thought about the picture at all.
[...]

There is no need to resort to lying. It's was quite obvious your reaction was a response to me hitting a soft spot.

[Phaedrus]

There is no need to resort to lying. It's was quite obvious your reaction was a response to me hitting a soft spot.

I am not lying. Why would I care about a picture? I don't care about other people's jokes or perceptions of me. I care about knowledge though. I want to know which type you are, and I hate the fact that you are not collaborating enough in finding out the truth of the matter.

I find it extremly irritating that you have been so wrong about your own type in the past, that it turned out that you didn't understand the functions correctly (that you for example had a TOTALLY incorrect understanding of ), and that I seem to have been almost completely right about your type right from the start. That's a "soft spot".

I hate the fact that people so strongly believe that they are right and that I am wrong, when the exact opposite is true almost every time. Such presumptuousness on your part is hard to accept.