Relations of benefit

[Pearl80]

In the relations of benefit module found on Sergei Genins site, the beneficiary seems to attempt to take advantage of the Benefactor. I would gather that the beneficiary in the module holds the Benefactor in contempt.

Notworthy examples being Iago / Othello or Bill / Hilary Clinton.

How do you reconcile this with the assertion that the beneficiary is supposed to love the benefactor deeply and experiences a painful "one-way" love so to speak?

I wrote to Sergie Genin about this before he closed down his Q & A section ...but did not get my question fully answered in light of the descrepancy between the module and his explanation.

Have you read anything on reverse order? If so ... can you explain it?

[CuriousSoul]

In the relations of benefit module found on Sergei Genins site, the beneficiary seems to attempt to take advantage of the Benefactor. I would gather that the beneficiary in the module holds the Benefactor in contempt.

Well I would not put it quite like that. What happens in these relations is that the Beneficiary is, at least in theory, likely to admire the Benefactor much more than vice versa. At the level of the functions this would be because the Benefactor's second function (creative or spontaneous expression) is received very favourably by the Beneficiarys fifth function (duality-seeking function, which accepts almost anything) whereas the Beneficiary's first function (base or lead function) is received more critically by the Benefactors sixth function (hidden agenda, which requires carefully balanced creative support). See the functions here:
http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/model.html

Both parties do however get support for their subconscious functions so these relations can usually be quite pleasant for both parties, and at least on a casual level make good friends. In a close relationships this kind of relations can inspire either totally "one-way love" in which case they may even turn out abusive, or alternatively these relations may inspire the most intense devotion if the Beneficiary feels that the Benefactor accepts his/her love and loves in return even when the Beneficiary does not consider him/herself worthy of the love. Well this sounds convulated and even crazy but I am highly confident that this was the case for example with John Lennon INTP and Yoko Ono ISTJ (I know she is far from the stereotypical version, but type is not about behaviour etc.. INTP Lennon and ESFP Paul McCartney made a highly efficient Duality pair, but if you want someone to worship you choose you Benafactor not your Dual,
just take it from a one who has been there and done that.)

Theoretically you could seek out your Beneficiary, confidently play out your second function and watch with objective detachment as he/she falls head over heels in love with you. And report the results to this Forum! :wink:

Notworthy examples being Iago / Othello or Bill / Hilary Clinton.

There is lots of disagreement about Bill Clinton's type among the experts, but here are the two main views. David Keirsey says that he's an ESFP, evidenced by his love of being the center of attention, love of entertaining, and wily pragmatic negotiation style. There is a rumor that he took the MBTI and came out ENFP (and Hillary came out INTJ). ENFP seems to be the most popular guess for Clinton's type. Remember, no two people use quite the same definitions for the four-letter codes.
http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?MbtiFamousPeople

I do not know about the Clinton's, do you know what their types were supposed to be? This ENFP & INTJ compo would make them an asymmetrical supervison/controll relationship which could very well explain the stormy nature of their relationship. Bill trying to wriggle out of Hillary's control, Hillary reining in Bill etc...

[discourse]

Our dual seeking funktion is the place where we have our secret wishes and what we find secretly attractive in other people. Benefactor gives you what you wish.

But s/he does not need what you give to him or hers. Hidden agenda want's good info, he already gets the clousere from you and does not need more.

That makes Beneficieary drieng to give to the Benefactor more closure to get
the same back. But the Benefacotr does not need it so much and moves to longer distance. Benefactor then want's to give even harder the closure and that's how the argues start: one needs more that good what the other gives and other likes how it is.

Wanting to give that good what he or she gets back and hoping to get the recognition from this is how the social progress is happening.

At least i would built such theory based on socionics.com information.

[Pearl80]

Here is but a portion of Sergie Genin's description of relations of benefit. This is pure and simple usuary! How could there be love, admiration or compassion in such behavior?
Sounds more like contempt ...and emotional abuse of the benefactor.

"However, relations last only as long as the Benefactor has something to give and the Beneficiary has need of it. If this major condition is no longer fulfilled, relations enter quite an unpleasant stage of their development. The Beneficiary may begin ignoring the Benefactor completely or they may start to accentuate too many of the Benefactors inability, provoking arguments and quarrels. Finally, when the Benefactor is in a superior position to the Beneficiary, it can work quite well, but not when it is the other way round! "

[CuriousSoul]

Well perhaps the description is rather more like a worst case scenario. Socionics.com takes often rather a cynical view on human relations. What real relations between two people turn out to be is always very complicated and does not necessarily follow the intertype relations formula, but in the long run the Beneficiary may well get frustrated with the Benefactor because the Beneficiary does not get the kind of support which he/she would most want and find it very difficult to understand why not. This is how the asymmetrical nature of the relations manifest itself. Maybe someone else can explain better... Does the functional level approach make sense/seem useful, or does it just muddle things up even more?

[metaiwan]

I think the reason the benefitee tries to start arguments is that just like in supervision relations both parties can sense the relationship, and the benefitee (if they are in a socially uneven relationship, as in boss-employee etc) may try to 'fix' the sensed unevenness of the relationship to no avail. of course they are going nowhere since they can't change the pressure they feel from the other party...

[metaiwan]

Well perhaps the description is rather more like a worst case scenario. Socionics.com takes often rather a cynical view on human relations. What real relations between two people turn out to be is always very complicated and does not necessarily follow the intertype relations formula, but in the long run the Beneficiary may well get frustrated with the Benefactor because the Beneficiary does not get the kind of support which he/she would most want and find it very difficult to understand why not. This is how the asymmetrical nature of the relations manifest itself. Maybe someone else can explain better... Does the functional level approach make sense/seem useful, or does it just muddle things up even more?

I really like the full functional analysis, because you can see why certain relationships are uneven and some aren't. aka in the uneven relationships you have someone's strong function in someone else's most weak, while the other person's creative is their dual seeking. Most of the relationships you can just go by the simple 'functional analysis' article that's on the function page on my site. for instance illusionary is corrective on their accepting functions and supplementary on their producing functions.

[Pearl80]

I think the reason the benefitee tries to start arguments is that just like in supervision relations both parties can sense the relationship, and the benefitee (if they are in a socially uneven relationship, as in boss-employee etc) may try to 'fix' the sensed unevenness of the relationship to no avail. of course they are going nowhere since they can't change the pressure they feel from the other party...

Maitwan... I think that you may be on to something. I read Sergei Genin's description of the relations of supervision...

Supervision partners often look like good friends. The reason for this is that in these relations both partners can sense their social value: the Supervisor as a "guardian angel", without whom the Supervisee will get into trouble, and the Supervisee as the object of attention.

How would this description be changed if it described the relations of benefit between an INTP (M) and ISTJ (F)?

[metaiwan]

INTP




ISTJ





In other words, I'm not really sure. Can anyone help here?

[CuriousSoul]

How would this description be changed if it described the relations of benefit between an INTP (M) and ISTJ (F

One major difference between relations of benefit and supervision is that relations of benefit are energy based, whereas relations of supervision are information based:

Energy Based Conscious functions of one partner affect subconscious functions of the other (i.e. two static or two dynamic). More subconscious impact than exchange of conscious information. Termed "relations of attraction."
Information Based Conscious functions of one partner affect conscious functions of the other (i.e. one static and one dynamic). More exchange of conscious information than subconscious impact. Termed "relations of repulsion."
http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/categories.html

Energy based relations are psychologically much heavier - in either positive or negative sense. Relations of benefit very often inspire intense admiration which can be very hard to logically explain - whereas in relations of supervision you are much more consciously aware that your superviser possesses superior skills and thus accept your superviser as your guardian angel.

For example with an INTP (man) and ISTJ (woman): The INTP needs extroverted sensing (5th function)
Another comparison will be between Dual-seeking functions. INTPs are looking out for extroverted sensing: INTPs would want to go power driven, moneymaking, sometimes risky places,
and introverted feeling (6th function):
INTPs are also trying to balance this cone on its head when it comes to introverted feeling (). Introverted feeling is love, affection, morality etc. It is important for an INTP to be involved with someone, to have an object of affection, to like people.
http://www.socionics.com/advan/intjorintp.htm

ISTJ has extroverted sensing as second function (as explained in an earlier post) and introverted feeling as third=role function. Role function is usually well visible to the outside:
Many ISTJs find it quite easy to interact with strangers and considering that they are introverts can feel quite close to someone even after a relatively short amount of contact. They often have a large compendium of jokes and anecdotes. Males often use this arsenal to charm females, usually behaving very gallantly, successfully playing role of the gentleman. They are often the life and soul of the party. They enjoy singing with little more than a guitar for accompaniment and often in a romantic style.
http://www.socionics.com/prof/istj.htm

Role function is however quite weak function and usually not capable of providing effective assistance for the INTP's demanding sixth function (hidden agenda).

The third function receives less attention than the first two and accumulates information sporadically. One is never completely sure of whether one perceives things accurately with it or not, and one’s memory of things is often quite foggy. There is not always enough information available about this aspect of reality even for the individual himself to get by. The third function does not have its own distinct sphere of interests; almost any information out of the norm can interest the individual. When making decisions about this aspect of reality the individual hesitates and is unsure of himself and tries to get advice from others if he is sure they will treat him respectfully. The third function is quite sensitive to criticism and tries not to criticize or impose on others. Since it is difficult to withstand or counter other peoples’ views about this aspect of reality, individuals try to meet accepted standards and be at least average in this area. If they do make mistakes, they usually feel bad that others have not taught them to do better. In this area a person can give advice based on what they have heard from others but is usually too unsure of himself to actually help out. The third function needs others to help out without making a big deal of it. One needs to have someone who is always there to discuss issues relating to this function and approve one’s decisions. In this case the individual becomes much more self-assured and secure and begins to live more fully. And gradually his third function becomes an encyclopedia of useful information that others can gain much use from. The calmer and more secure one is about everything relating to one’s third function and the more attention one gives it, the greater one’s success. But the third function is never as categorical and forceful as the first and can never rise to the same heights of vision. At its best development it remains a practical instrument to serve the interests of the individual and those immediately surrounding him.

Thus INTP would see that ISTJ seems to be quite competent at introverted feeling, yet seemingly not willing to help. Role function can though be developed but it usually takes a lot of conscious effort and using your third function does not feel as pleasant as using your second function.
At the same time, when others need our help using our second function, this is seen as acknowledging our success in this area, and we help out with pleasure and enthusiasm.
(Thus I quite enjoy trying to help, patronising as it may though be...)
http://www.geocities.com/tommylove9000/model.html
(I am also quoting too much, but I quite like these functions )

The feeling of control is one aspect which certainly often would cause the beneficiary to provoke quarrels but it is good to keep in mind that insecure people may also feel safe and be perfectly happy being under control - if only somebody is willing to take control and responsibility over their lives. And in this respect the relations of benefit would be better since you get to both worship your impressive benefactor (the subconscious impact) and unlike in relations of supervision you do not need to constantly fear being hit on your painful fourth function by your partner's "dictatorial" first function. Did I make any sense?

[Creepy-Pearl Eighty]

Thank you Curious,

Thanks for such a wonderful explaination!

I have to put a little more effort into translating the intertype relations module via functional analysis. I even consulted one of my handy dandy functional analysis cheat sheets;

http://greenlightwiki.com/lenore-exe...verted_Feeling

I have since been digging around on the russian sites looking for answers to my questions and found V.V. Gulenko's explanation of direct vs. return order.

You brought up a very good point... some persons do like to be "controlled." Conversly, some ppl do not like control and resist it at all costs.

In VV. Gulenko's relations social order module (benefit) he attests to the fact that the beneficiary can resist the "percieved" control of the benefactor thus producing reverse order, experienced as a critical, fault finding, argumentative thus Contemptuous beneficiary.

The direct order - fine tuning for intervention (Benefactor)

Dialogue little bit intense, but attractive as in the partner you see realizatora the plans. Therefore you search ways of fine tuning under it for zavladenija its trust. It occurs only when it is possible to take as though it unawares when it is abstract, weakened and badly supervises the acts consciousness. Vyjdja from under "hypnosis" the partner quite often understands, that it to some extent use, then usually there comes some cooling. Having found out easing of the influence, you undertake measures for more thin fine tuning. Dialogue for this reason gets pulsing character.

The return order - cautious fine tuning (Beneficiary)

Dialogue not so much interesting, how many tonic and mobilizujushchee. To opinion stated by the partner, and also its behaviour you concern critically. If there comes silence, test discomfort. From time to time it seems, that the partner does not take into account something or does not notice and then put forces to pay to its this attention. To such partner not so that you aspire, it is much more often offers you this or that business. Depending on as far as it manages to interest you, attitudes are fastened or not. Having made sure, that the partner supplies you with really valuable information, you use her with the big advantage for yourselves.

Tell me if you agree.

[CuriousSoul]

"Tell me if you agree."

-I do.
What I earlier thought I should try to explain but found difficult to figure out in practical terms was what causes the asymmetrical nature of the relations of benefit in the first place:
The benefactor's first function (in our example ISTJ's introverted thinking) is connected with the beneficiary's second function (INTP's extroverted thinking) by relations of correction (introverted and extroverted function of the same kind).

3. Correction.
Here one can mention a striving to draw one’s partner’s attention to the missed details, trivialities; not to understand, but to correct and amend. Discussions sometimes may be very heated, but in most cases fruitless, and partners get tired of them. In this kind of relations partners often have different, unequal positions, or just belong to different groups. In education this feature is good when a pupil has already mastered necessary information “in general”, and just needs some correction. Otherwise pupils tend to ignore the corrective information. http://www.the16types.info/articles.php?article_id=1

The asymmetry is caused by the benefactor's first function being much stronger than the beneficiary's second function:
Individuals are not shy about demonstrating their first function or receiving criticism about what they do or think using their first function. They also think little of criticizing others from the standpoint of their first function. One’s first function is what one tends to value most in oneself and what one identifies oneself most with. In one’s opinions and activities related to one’s first function one rarely yields to others’ influence and is capable of standing up for oneself and leading others
http://www.socionika.com/model.html
Individuals view their second function more as their own personal skill or quality than as an objective component of reality. Hence, criticism is more unpleasant than for the first function. At the same time, when others need our help using our second function, this is seen as acknowledging our success in this area, and we help out with pleasure and enthusiasm. One believes that everyone should have the right to freedom and creativity in this aspect of reality. If no one needs our help in this aspect of reality we feel unneeded. The more those around us need our expertise in this area, the greater our self-actualization in society.

Thus the beneficiary is likely to get frustrated when the benefactor does not seem to value or even notice his/her sincere efforts at impressing the benefactor.
The benefactor on his part may often not even notice that the beneficiary experiences the benefactor's knowledgeable guidance and benevolent care as overtly patronising, and even as annoying nitpicking. This misunderstanding would then cause the beneficiary to provoke conflicts - unless the beneficiary accepts the benefactor as his/her superior. Of course how corrective functions are experienced depends on the situation at hand, and as mentioned it may also help to see the other side of things and lead to improved learning and even to productive co-operation.

This kind of corrective communication of introverted vs extroverted elements can be observed even in real life - and at times it may even appear quite hilarious. I should try to find practical examples to make it more understandable. Overall it is quite frustrating that there is so very little information available in English, so my understanding of the functions and their interaction is unfortunately quite limited. Feel free to correct me, :wink: or maybe add some relevant examples.[/quote]

[Pearl80]

Thats a very interesting connection.

After reading your post and considering the explainations below I would surmise that the ISTJ and INTP cannot support each other morally or spiritually.

The Introverted Thinking Type
Introverted thinking is contemplative, involving an inner play of ideas. It is thinking for its own sake and is always directed inward to subjective ideas and personal convictions rather than outward to practical outcomes. The main concern of such thinking is to elaborate as fully as possible all the ramifications and implications of a seminal idea. As a consequence, introverted thinking can be complex, turgid and overly scrupulous. To the extent that it withdraws from objective reality, it may also become totally abstract, symbolic or mystical.

The introverted thinking type tends to be impractical and indifferent to objective concerns. These persons usually avoid notice and may seem cold, arrogant and taciturn. Alternatively, the repressed feeling function may express itself in displays of childish naivety. Generally people of this type appear caught up in their own ideas which they aim to think through as fully and deeply as possible. If extreme or neurotic they can become rigid, withdrawn, surly or brusque. They may also confuse their subjectively apprehended truth with their own personality so that any criticism of their ideas is seen as a personal attack. This may lead to bitterness or to vicious counterattacks against their critics.

The Extraverted Thinking Type
Extraverted thinking is driven by the objective evidence of the senses or by objective (collective) ideas that derive from tradition or learning. Its purpose is to abstract conceptual relationships from objective experience, linking ideas together in a rational, logical fashion. Furthermore, any conclusions that are drawn are always directed outward to some objective product or practical outcome. Thinking is never carried out for its own sake, merely as some private, subjective enterprise.

The extraverted thinking type bases all actions on the intellectual analysis of objective data. Such people live by a general intellectual formula or universal moral code, founded upon abstract notions of truth or justice. They also expect other people to recognize and obey this formula. This type represses the feeling function (e.g., sentimental attachments, friendships, religious devotion) and may also neglect personal interests such as their own health or financial well-being. If extreme or neurotic, they may become petty, bigoted, tyrannical or hostile towards those who would threaten their formula. Alternatively, repressed tendencies may burst out in various kinds of personal 'immorality' (e.g., self-seeking, sexual misdemeanours, fraud or deception).

I can see a lot of plain obstinacy (stubbornness) playing out in this relationship.

I would love to read about examples if you come across any!

Thank you for such invaluable information.

[Pearl80]

One more thing we didnt consider.

When Benefactor is a woman and beneficiary is a man... I beleive that this could cause additional problems as most men do not like the idea of being "dominated" by a woman.

********unrelated***********

Do you think that perhaps Madonna and Sean Penn were involved in a relation of benefit?

Just my opinion but I have always thought of Madonna as INTP and Sean Penn as ISTJ.

That relationship seemed so intense and passionate! I have seen interviews where Madonna says that she would never feel that type of "intensity" again.

[CuriousSoul]

Thats a very interesting connection.

After reading your post and considering the explainations below I would surmise that the ISTJ and INTP cannot support each other morally or spiritually.

The Introverted Thinking Type
Introverted thinking is contemplative, involving an inner play of ideas. It is thinking for its own sake and is always directed inward to subjective ideas and personal convictions rather than outward to practical outcomes. The main concern of such thinking is to elaborate as fully as possible all the ramifications and implications of a seminal idea. As a consequence, introverted thinking can be complex, turgid and overly scrupulous. To the extent that it withdraws from objective reality, it may also become totally abstract, symbolic or mystical.

The introverted thinking type tends to be impractical and indifferent to objective concerns. These persons usually avoid notice and may seem cold, arrogant and taciturn. Alternatively, the repressed feeling function may express itself in displays of childish naivety. Generally people of this type appear caught up in their own ideas which they aim to think through as fully and deeply as possible. If extreme or neurotic they can become rigid, withdrawn, surly or brusque. They may also confuse their subjectively apprehended truth with their own personality so that any criticism of their ideas is seen as a personal attack. This may lead to bitterness or to vicious counterattacks against their critics.

The Extraverted Thinking Type
Extraverted thinking is driven by the objective evidence of the senses or by objective (collective) ideas that derive from tradition or learning. Its purpose is to abstract conceptual relationships from objective experience, linking ideas together in a rational, logical fashion. Furthermore, any conclusions that are drawn are always directed outward to some objective product or practical outcome. Thinking is never carried out for its own sake, merely as some private, subjective enterprise.

The extraverted thinking type bases all actions on the intellectual analysis of objective data. Such people live by a general intellectual formula or universal moral code, founded upon abstract notions of truth or justice. They also expect other people to recognize and obey this formula. This type represses the feeling function (e.g., sentimental attachments, friendships, religious devotion) and may also neglect personal interests such as their own <span id="HEALTH" class=xxxxkeyword onmouseover="onmo(this);" onmouseout="inMenu=false;hide(this);">health</span> or <span id="FINANCIAL" class=xxxxkeyword onmouseover="onmo(this);" onmouseout="inMenu=false;hide(this);">financial</span> well-being. If extreme or neurotic, they may become petty, bigoted, tyrannical or hostile towards those who would threaten their formula. Alternatively, repressed tendencies may burst out in various kinds of personal 'immorality' (e.g., self-seeking, sexual misdemeanours, fraud or deception).

I can see a lot of plain obstinacy (stubbornness) playing out in this relationship.

I would love to read about examples if you come across any!

Thank you for such invaluable information.

Let us remember that extroverted thinking is the second function for INTPs. In this Jungian scheme the type was defined by the first function, thus INTP would be the introverted intuitive type (as would INFP), introverted intuition with either thinking (INTP) or feeling (INFP) as second function.
Jung mentioned the second functions but did not write much about them. Extraverted thinking type as defined by Carl Gustav Jung again would be either extroverted thinking with intuition (ENTJ) or with sensing (ESTJ) in socionics. Then there is the confusion with MBTI which has been much discussed...

Then about Madonna, I do not know, I think it is more plausible to type her as ESTP and Guy Ritchie as INFP. For example the way she has been shopping around for religious and mystical beliefs would be compatible with her being ESTP. They have introverted intuition as their fifth duality seeking function and are thus not ashamed to show their neediness in this aspect of reality. Of course strong evidence is hard to come by, and some INTPs do indeed behave in a very extroverted manner, but still: what makes you think she might actually be INTP? I am sorry to say I do not know much about Sean Penn, but ESTPs would be beneficiarys to ENTJs. Could Sean Penn be Madonna's benefactor ENTJ? Relations of benefit may indeed provoke stronger emotions than duality largely because of their asymmetry but keeping the relationship going well would be very difficult for two independent and highly ambitous extroverts.

I will write more on monday, bye for now.

[Creepy-Pearl Eighty]

Curious,

I'm sure that you're certainly right about the order of functions for INTP. I was merely making a side by side comparison of functions that could surely "clash," in the interpersonal arena.

As I said before, I still need time with Model A.

For all the same reasons you listed below, "shopping around for religious and mystical beliefs" I still believe Madonna to be an INTp. She seems to need to express her deeply ingrained spirituality, albeit in a manner that suits her.

I also know INTP's that have this sort of "wonderlust" about themselves.

She is a shrewd business woman.

She has her own moral code.

She seems very even-tempered, calm, dispassionate, unsentimental, and unflappable.

She seems unswayed by either praise or criticism and can confidently come to terms with her own behavior. (Iconclast and seen as immoral and shocking).

"INTPs are known for their quest for logical purity, which motivates them to examine universal truths and principles" Kabbalah / Yoga.

"INTPs tend to either respect and go along with society's rules, or to question and rebel against them. "

"For the INTP, love has three distinct phases: falling in, staying in, and getting out. These phases relate to their thinking preference and its need for order and sequence"

Also she "line's" up well with other notable INTP women as well (V.I,).

Hey ... I came across something very interesting this weekend by a Russian Socionics author. He says that there has been years of data on a phenomenon in Assymetrical relations of social order (relations of benefit). When dealing with the INTP or INFP there has been data that bears out that they are more than likely to become (Supervisor's) to thier Benefactor. Imagine that!!

I cannot imagine why that is!

[MysticSonic]

You do realise that alot of that literature was written in regards to the MBTI INTP, correct?

[Creepy-Pearl Eighty]

I don't think I understand your statement in light of the fact that I'm describing what I believe to be an INTP personality.

As far as the Socionics material ...would they perhaps have an unfair bias towards INTP's?

I know that N types are much more revered in our society. Just look at indepth descriptions of the types. .. You will see at least 20% more material on N types than on SJ types. I have even seen this with regard to Socionics material.

[MysticSonic]

http://www.socionics.com/advan/jpproblem.htm

[CuriousSoul]

Curious,
Hey ... I came across something very interesting this weekend by a Russian Socionics author. He says that there has been years of data on a phenomenon in Assymetrical relations of social order (relations of benefit). When dealing with the INTP or INFP there has been data that bears out that they are more than likely to become (Supervisor's) to thier Benefactor. Imagine that!!

I cannot imagine why that is!

That last point sounded interesting I would be grateful if you could point out the link to me.
There is, in my opinion, something about introverted intuition that can make it a terribly strong lead function, perhaps because introverted intuition largely relies on vast but disorganised and often almost encyclopedic memory, it kind of enables one to easily come up with seemingly innocent off topic remarks which take your partner totally by surprise and disturb their carefully laid plans. On distance both INTPs and even INFPs often look like chronically depressed pushovers but once you get into a close relationship the dictatorial instinct reasserts itself: nevermind the reality this is what I say because I know and now we do what I say
I know two INTP/ESFP couples: one INTP man/ESFP woman the other vice versa, and in both cases it clearly seems that the INTP enjoys bossing the ESFP about, and the ESFP seems to be surprisingly content with it.
Or like my ENFJ grandma said to me after I, admittedly unwisely, kept questioning her opinions: you need either somebody who will obey you or set you firmly into your place, (and in her opinion preferably the latter). Well, I am still hoping... :wink:

[CuriousSoul]

Curious,

For all the same reasons you listed below, "shopping around for religious and mystical beliefs" I still believe Madonna to be an INTp. She seems to need to express her deeply ingrained spirituality, albeit in a manner that suits her.

I also know INTP's that have this sort of "wonderlust" about themselves.

She is a shrewd business woman.

She has her own moral code.

She seems very even-tempered, calm, dispassionate, unsentimental, and unflappable.

She seems unswayed by either praise or criticism and can confidently come to terms with her own behavior. (Iconclast and seen as immoral and shocking).

"INTPs are known for their quest for logical purity, which motivates them to examine universal truths and principles" Kabbalah / Yoga.

"INTPs tend to either respect and go along with society's rules, or to question and rebel against them. "

"For the INTP, love has three distinct phases: falling in, staying in, and getting out. These phases relate to their thinking preference and its need for order and sequence"

Also she "line's" up well with other notable INTP women as well (V.I,).

Once again I enjoy playing the dictator but nonetheless I feel compelled to point out that the qualities you listed are basically irrelevant for typing. People of some personality types are probably more likely to develop some of them but none of them are reliable indicators of the Socionics type. Furthermore it is all too speculative: what beyond the carefully crafted public image can we really know about her emotional stability and spiritual life. Looking at old pictures of her I clearly see a extrovert sensing type but visual identification is a pain in the backs**e, because it just seems virtually impossible to verbalise the debate beyond general "she looks kind of like her" arguments.

I think we should discuss typing more later - the issue of correct typing lies at the very core of almost every dispute in socionics but for now just try to have patience with me. This Q&A session by Sergei Ganin seemt interesting and relevant to the topic at hand:

Is it possible that two people of the same type behave in different ways?

It is rather impossible that two people of the same type behave in the same way. One's behaviour consists of many different factors including the type. Some factors may include one's gender, family background, nationality, race, profession, sexual orientation, physical characteristics, surrounding, overall well being, time of the year, time of the day, day of the week, mood and so on. Here some non-type related descriptions of five real ESFj people to compare how different people of the same type could be:

ESFj 1. Reliable, insecure and possessive, sends out conflicting messages of sensuality behind a fixed moral and ethical exterior, jealous, stubborn and highly sexed.

ESFj 2. Intuitive and loving, little foolish, torn between doing own things and having responsibilities.

ESFj 3. Energetic and passionate, can't switch off, always on the go, has lots of relationships, very fixed in vision.

ESFj 4. Serious and very ambitious, great at communication, not in touch with own emotions, has low self-esteem, needs security.

ESFj 5. Moody and intense, private person, magnetic and charming, awash with sensitivities, emotions and passion.

http://www.socionics.com/advan/qa130303.htm


And besides if these two lovebirds are not an ESTP/INFP duality couple, what are they? (You see why I want to type her as ESTP :wink: )

[Pearl80]

CuriousSoul,

...the INTP I knew seemed so threatended by me (ISTJ). He even told me once that I reminded him of his little sister because "i didnt listen to him, I thought that I was smarter than him...!"

Funny thing is... I never tried to dominate or control him! This was a something I had virtually nothing to do with!

Do INTP's generally engage in Push / Pull relationships. Maybe because of intimacy issues perhaps? Why do INTP's tease and critisize...is this something they only do to people they have contempt for? He would relentlessly tease me and say smart alec things! I thought that he hated me deep in his heart! Why else would someone tease you?

One thing I can agree on with you is that INTP's and INFP's can be very stubborn. Very stubborn...

I got the information from the website Socieity of Study of Information Interaction. http://ru.laser.ru/ (Library Link, author G. Schulman) He has several articles listed under his tab. I plan on finding more information and will forward any interesting tidbits I come across!!

Curious? Do you speak Russian? If you could explain some of the content of G. Schulman's work I would appreciate it...the translators leave out vital information sometimes.

Hey.. I made you a buddy in Yahoo messenger.. is that ok?

Mystic, there are several Socionists that believe Madonna to be an INTP. Check out some of the celebrity photo sites. I happen to agree with these authors based on several factors...some I listed above.

Thank you for explaining some of the finer point of relations of benefit. I'm still rather confused about this relation in particular... I guess there are so many variations on this particular relation. It is very complicated and not to mention painful!

bye for now!

[Pearl80]

There is, in my opinion, something about introverted intuition that can make it a terribly strong lead function, perhaps because introverted intuition largely relies on vast but disorganised and often almost encyclopedic memory, it kind of enables one to easily come up with seemingly innocent off topic remarks which take your partner totally by surprise and disturb their carefully laid plans. [/quote]

You know what? That is what he used to do? I would say something then he would twist it around to something absolutely rediculous! I hate that?

That is called emotionally abusing others!!!!

[Pearl80]

V. Gulenko has some rather interesting insights on intertype relations.

http://webtranslation.paralink.com/w...=general&auto=

Hope the translator kicks in for you !

[MysticSonic]

Pearl, I was just trying to point it out to you that the literature that you were using is written by MBTI practicioners(SP) and was trying to inform you of the incompatibility between the MBTI and Socionic introverted types.

[MysticSonic]

Still have to work on that.....

[CuriousSoul]

You know what? That is what he used to do? I would say something then he would twist it around to something absolutely rediculous! I hate that?

That is called emotionally abusing others!!!!

Of course there could be a number of reasons why your partner started twisting your words, often it seems that when people do not get what they want in a relationship they may start lashing out like misbehaving children. What they want may of course be something quite unreasonable or even something they cannot quite explain - just instinctively feel that something vital is missing. The subconscious functions are not easy to make sense of but people do feel their effect and it shows up in their behaviour. In case your partner was INTP this answer to a question about ISTPs and their hidden agenda would also apply to INTPs since they have the same hidden agenda (6th function) and painful 4th function.

Given the nature of the hidden agenda of the ISTp, how would they get along with their dual? Does the ENFp have some sort of masochistic need to be dealt with selfishly or denied affection?

Let's not forget that "uncovered" profiles contain the worst scenario in order to underline certain points. But in general, ISTPs have difficulty maintaining the consistency of their feelings towards something or someone, due to the unsteady nature of the hidden agenda. ENFP with their Fi as creative realisation are very changeable in their feelings, today they love you, tomorrow they hate you, three days later they don't know you, a week after you are the best friend again. This is perhaps quite enough to satisfy ISTP's hidden agenda requirements, as they can't really grasp or get bored of this ENFP behaviour. It is quite difficult to rationalise the hidden agenda. Imagine a woman during her monthly periods. The hidden agenda is basically where the logic stops.

http://www.socionics.com/advan/qa231003.htm

Thus because of their peculiar hidden agenda INTPs could be quite difficult to deal with in a relationship. Of course your type would play a role, if you are an ESFP you might well enjoy trying to figure out and manipulate the strange mood swings and emotionals outbursts of your INTP partner. Naturally also personality differences unrelated to Socionics type and any number of other things influence people's behaviour and compatibility in relationships.

[CuriousSoul]

There is, in my opinion, something about introverted intuition that can make it a terribly strong lead function, perhaps because introverted intuition largely relies on vast but disorganised and often almost encyclopedic memory, it kind of enables one to easily come up with seemingly innocent off topic remarks which take your partner totally by surprise and disturb their carefully laid plans.

You know what? That is what he used to do? I would say something then he would twist it around to something absolutely rediculous! I hate that?

That is called emotionally abusing others!!!!

I think it is emotionally abusing others if you intention is to insult your collocutor but where Sosionics comes into play is when we hurt each other even when we are just trying to be helpful. It may sound weird but I think is much more common than we think, after all what pleasure is there for sane people in hurting each other?

What I had in mind was also cases when I think, and sometimes even argue, kind of like this:
-I can see where you are coming from but could you just try to clear out this slight inconsistency in your argument for me.
-That is certainly true up to a point, but I do not think that you can generalise based on just a few incidents, and besides this kind of reminds me of a case just couple of years ago...
And so on ad infinitum, maybe it is the INFP's hidden agenda...
In other words I occasionally seem to have a habit of turning casual conversations into an exercise in the Socratic method:

Socrates applied his method to the examination of the key moral concepts at the time, the virtues of piety, wisdom, temperance, courage, and justice. Such an examination challenged the implicit moral beliefs of the interlocutors, bringing out inadequacies and inconsistencies in their beliefs, and usually resulting in puzzlement known as aporia. In view of such inadequacies, Socrates himself professed his ignorance, but others still maintained their knowledge claim, whereby Socrates claimed that he being aware of his ignorance is wiser than those who, though ignorant, still claimed knowledge -- a claim which seems paradoxical at first glance. This claim was known by the anecdote of the Delphic oracular pronouncement that Socrates was the wisest of all men.
http://www.all-science-fair-projects...pedia/Socrates

People often have a set of core beliefs and opinions and even though these beliefs would not stand up to a rational scrutiny they serve a highly useful purpose in helping people make sense of the world and, quite naturally, any attempts - however well meaning - at questioning these beliefs are perceived as a hostile attack.

[CuriousSoul]

CuriousSoul,

...the INTP I knew seemed so threatended by me (ISTJ). He even told me once that I reminded him of his little sister because "i didnt listen to him, I thought that I was smarter than him...!"

Funny thing is... I never tried to dominate or control him! This was a something I had virtually nothing to do with!

Do INTP's generally engage in Push / Pull relationships. Maybe because of intimacy issues perhaps? Why do INTP's tease and critisize...is this something they only do to people they have contempt for? He would relentlessly tease me and say smart alec things! I thought that he hated me deep in his heart! Why else would someone tease you?]

Maybe we have INTP readers who can answer better, but many INTPs certainly behave in strange ways even though they may mean no harm, ethics being their painful function and all...

One thing I can agree on with you is that INTP's and INFP's can be very stubborn. Very stubborn...

I got the information from the website Socieity of Study of Information Interaction. http://ru.laser.ru/ (Library Link, author G. Schulman) He has several articles listed under his tab. I plan on finding more information and will forward any interesting tidbits I come across!!

Curious? Do you speak Russian? If you could explain some of the content of G. Schulman's work I would appreciate it...the translators leave out vital information sometimes.

Hey.. I made you a buddy in Yahoo messenger.. is that ok?

Thank you, I have not been using Yahoo messanger before but maybe in the future, and unfortunately I do not speak Russian although it does seem that I should start learning Russian - there is only so far you can go with the BabelFish.

Mystic, there are several Socionists that believe Madonna to be an INTP. Check out some of the celebrity photo sites. I happen to agree with these authors based on several factors...some I listed above.

I remember reading that according to Gulenko well developed personalities start to resemble their semiduals. The explanation had something to do with the sides of our brains. I think in practise it was kind of like that because we are not afraid of showing our weaknesses with our fifth duality seeking function we can develop those skills well, but the 4th and 6th function still remain somewhat troublesome and drawing too much attention to them is likely to lead to all kinds of complications. Thus this ESTP/INTP controversy would seem to make a lot of sense. I just cannot remember where I read it but maybe somewhere at that www.laser.ru
This could also explain cases like www.socionics.com typing John Travolta as INTP and Adam Sandler as INFP.
I would still think ESTP is the more likely socionics type, but the impossibility of finding conclusive evidence does make typing celebrities often an irritatingly frustrating experience.

Thank you for explaining some of the finer point of relations of benefit. I'm still rather confused about this relation in particular... I guess there are so many variations on this particular relation. It is very complicated and not to mention painful!

bye for now!

I think there should really be 16*16=256 intertype relations descriptions because the way the intertype relations turns out is often quite different for different types, and even that would not take into account any individual differences, nor the numerous methods people employ to get on with each other even in unfavourable relations. On the other hand for duality relations to works properly you need to be able to trust each other almost blindly as judging the quality of the information you get from your partner can be very difficult - and such trust is certainly not easy to achieve.

[Creepy-Joan]

I don't think that Guy Ritchie is an INFP.

Could he be Madonna's identical instead?

[CuriousSoul]

I don't think that Guy Ritchie is an INFP.

Could he be Madonna's identical instead?

To be frank I am not quite sure about his type either, just an intuitive hunch. But what do you think his type would be?
I personally find INTP unlikely, just looking at the pictures INTPs often look either sad or pose for pictures with a slightly strained and artificial smile, for example the Finnish prime minister Matti Vanhanen:



The male and female versions of the types also often look quite different, boys are usually not encouraged to show too much emotions and there may be inborn differences as well but, as usually, this is all very speculative...
The potential problem with identical relations is that especially with two highly ambitious people they may lead to competion between the spouses and the partners may not be able to effectively help each other. While identical relations in many cases seem to work fine they are often more of a rational, than a love marriage. Madonna's apparent willingness, or quite possibly even need to play "the little wife" and to be bossed around, would be characteristic of the development of duality relations when according to theory you would feel relieved when you allow your partner to take charge of your weak but needy subconscious functions.

[Creepy-]

Thank you for your explanation CuriousSoul.

I just did an image search on google for Guy's pictures. I think you are right. Based on visual identification, he could very well be an INFP.

I think Guy lacks the energy associated with ESTPs. He has a pensive demeanor and 'unfocused' eyes-- traits which are uncharacteristic of ESTPs. I notice this expression of his to be consistent in various pictures. Here are some examples:





Just to provide some contrast; the following are three ESTPs. From top to bottom: Edge of WWE, Simon Le Bon, Roald Dahl.




[/img]

[Creepy-Joan]

sorry, the above poster is me.

[Moniker04]

Listen people:

These theories on celebrities types are flat out wrong.

I am INTJ (Socionics-not MBTI). All types I refer to will be socionics types.

Thus, I am a dominant introverted thinker with extraverted intuition. For all our interpersonal flaws, most INTJ's are excellent at reading people and coming to accurate conclusions regarding their (via real life or tv ect) strengths and weaknesses. We are also second to none in analyzing and understanding theories. Thus, I have learned to apply the theories of Jung and socionics and have been able to apply it to people on a regular basis with a great deal of accuracy. This is especially true when it comes to people in the alpha quadrable, because I share the same functions, and thus, values.

Sean Penn-Intj
Bill Clinton-Intp
Madonna-ENTP, perhaps INTJ
John Lennon-INTJ (not Intp, although George Harrison probably is.) As for the Beatles-Although INTJ and ESFP are conflicting types, they still share the same functions in different orders (ie: INTJ and ESFP has (Ti, Ne), (Si, Fe), Se, Fi) ect.
Somehow these two talented musicans accessed each other's subconscious in a beautiful way. However, as we know, it didn't last very long.
Yoko Ono-my guess, INTJ. An identical relationship

Lastly, benefit relationships are unhealthy. I've been in them and it's no fun to receive little to no acknowledgement of your talents. Just stay away from them. In my opinion, it is better to not have a relationship than to have an unhealthy and one-sided one.

[CuriousSoul]

Well thanks for clearing it all out for me. I especially enjoyed your detailed account of how you reached your impressive conclusions, they make typing others so much easier. How did I ever manage without your help?

[Pearl80]

Thank you for your enlightening post on your near God-like qualities! We are better people for it!

The first point of the board is discussion and enrichment. My point in even bringing this topic to bear was the fact that I experienced this type of relation (INTP/ISTJ) with a few twists that begged explaination. Not according to the module introducing a descrepancy.

Also... I believe that I could have arrived at the conclusion on my own that bad relationships are to be avoided. To openly simplify this line of reasoning is to mistake what this board is actually being used for. Priceless advice!! :roll:

If reading information from authors that have multiple years experience in the field of american and russion psycology is somehow wrong. How did you get your knowledge of these subjects? Memorized what you read perhaps? Come on!

[Pearl80]

For those that are interested...

I noticed how my direct opposite type profile (ENFP) is fascinatingly relevant to my personality. It reads like an inverted (ISTJ)!

I know that Jungian philosophy calls this your shadow. What does Socionics explain the "shadow" as Jung coins it? I had indeed observed a post by Sergei Genin that used total opposite typing as a way to find your true type.

Can anyone explain this?

[Pearl80]

...continued

I also see a painfully relevant simularity between my (look-a-like) type ISFJ profile. I was under the impression for a while that I could be both!

[CuriousSoul]

Listen people:

These theories on celebrities types are flat out wrong.

I am INTJ (Socionics-not MBTI). All types I refer to will be socionics types.

Thus, I am a dominant introverted thinker with extraverted intuition. For all our interpersonal flaws, most INTJ's are excellent at reading people and coming to accurate conclusions regarding their (via real life or tv ect) strengths and weaknesses. We are also second to none in analyzing and understanding theories. Thus, I have learned to apply the theories of Jung and socionics and have been able to apply it to people on a regular basis with a great deal of accuracy. This is especially true when it comes to people in the alpha quadrable, because I share the same functions, and thus, values.

Sean Penn-Intj
Bill Clinton-Intp
Madonna-ENTP, perhaps INTJ
John Lennon-INTJ (not Intp, although George Harrison probably is.) As for the Beatles-Although INTJ and ESFP are conflicting types, they still share the same functions in different orders (ie: INTJ and ESFP has (Ti, Ne), (Si, Fe), Se, Fi) ect.
Somehow these two talented <span id="MUSIC" class=xxxxkeyword onmouseover="onmo(this);" onmouseout="inMenu=false;hide(this);">music</span>ans accessed each other's subconscious in a beautiful way. However, as we know, it didn't last very long.
Yoko Ono-my guess, INTJ. An identical relationship

Lastly, benefit relationships are un<span id="HEALTH" class=xxxxkeyword onmouseover="onmo(this);" onmouseout="inMenu=false;hide(this);">health</span>y. I've been in them and it's no fun to receive little to no acknowledgement of your talents. Just stay away from them. In my opinion, it is better to not have a relationship than to have an unhealthy and one-sided one.

Goodness gracious, I think you are probably right about Madonna. I have never been that big of a Madonna fan and when the topic came up I was rather too eager to jump into conclusions - and frankly I should forget the claims of the MBTI practitioners all together. In some pictures she looks like ESTP, in others a bit like ESFJ, but I got hand of an old biography of her Madonna Unauthorized, by Christopher Andersen published back in 1993 that had a good selection of pictures of her. In many pictures her wide-open facial expressions, as well as the rather uncoordinated body movements and the wild gesticulation are remarkbly similar to at least one female ENTP I know. On a closer look, ENTP seems to fit in with her path-breaking career and overall life story as well.

With regard to the others I am, as of now, less convinced but I would be genuinely delighted if you could try to explain your reasoning in some detail, or perhaps give us some general guidelines for typing. The trouble with typing is that every type seems to come in so very many versions and there is so precious little information available in English, even including the rather lousy BabelFish translations, that for an English speaker learning Socionics seems often like reinventing the wheel time after time.

[Pearl80]

Curious,

There have been many (Americans) that concluded that madonna was an ENTP for many years.

I always thought that she was Introverted because she seems to be faking her bravado and shocking behavior.