EIEs/ENFjs with fragile egos and need to dominate

[MysticSonic]

Dioklecian topic.

[inumbra]

Can anyone say an INFj is no less prone to physical violence than an ESTp and keep a straight face? One should probably take care not to "dump" every possible negativity into other quadras. But the POV that destructive tendencies are equally type-distributed is probably about as unrealistic. In that vein, my answer to Expat's question would be quite different from hotel's. And I would likely continue holding that POV even if demonstrated that I'm some [unusually self-critical?] Beta-type myself.

Your response is somewhat different than that of Mikemex in that you honestly seem to be trying to look at this objectively... Mikemex's remarks on the other hand just seem discriminatory and biased.

Anyway, I don't know if "destructive" tendencies are equally distributed among types or quadras or not, but I don't see a need to presume something like Delta being the most "enlightened" and Beta being the most "savage."

Maybe Beta looks horrendous from the pov of Delta, and that's fine, but I really doubt Beta reflects the basest most primative elements of human nature while Delta reflects the purest most advanced elements... which wasn't said directly, but that's how it sounds...

[FDG]

Oh, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I am or that such is the perception! Question always remains if this says something about me, about the perceiver, or both of us.

Yes. That you act like a jerk. End of story.

You and mikemex are the pollution of this forum. ENFps trying hard to be macho and heartless = laughable.

By definition, forums are places where people act out their neurotic behaviors, or in some cases, their psychotic ones.

Why? The fact that you use forums for this aim does not mean that everybody does, I am afraid.

[consentingadult]

Yes. That you act like a jerk. End of story.

You and mikemex are the pollution of this forum. ENFps trying hard to be macho and heartless = laughable.

Why? The fact that you use forums for this aim does not mean that everybody does, I am afraid.

whahahaha, you're so funny. You think you understand what's happening, but in reality, you don't know shit. You seeing yourself as ENTj is only to keep you from jumping of a skyscraper. This is what you are:

17. UNRELENTING STANDARDS / HYPERCRITICALNESS (US)

The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.
Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and “shoulds” in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished.

You don't fool me for a single second.

[Kristiina]

consentingadult, for the longest time I thought you were ISTp. I'm almost sad to find out that your behavior isn't the result of PoLR and lack of understanding of what impression you give. ISTps often seem like bad people even though they have good intentions. They just don't express themselves clearly enough for others to see those intentions. But ENFps have strong Fi and strong Fe. ENFps know what their morals/intentions are and they know how to express themselves properly. When an ENFp seems like a bad person, that's usually because it's true.

[consentingadult]

consentingadult, for the longest time I thought you were ISTp. I'm almost sad to find out that your behavior isn't the result of PoLR and lack of understanding of what impression you give. ISTps often seem like bad people even though they have good intentions. They just don't express themselves clearly enough for others to see those intentions. But ENFps have strong Fi and strong Fe. ENFps know what their morals/intentions are and they know how to express themselves properly. When an ENFp seems like a bad person, that's usually because it's true.

Four things, before I'm really out of here:

1. Most of you do not have a single clue as for my reasons for being here, and since you never asked and only are assuming things, you will not likely find out. But I'll give you a hint and elaborate on further on my 'famous last words': my presence here included, amongst other things, exercise in self-assertion. So you (Kristiina) made quite a sharp observation, as I was training myself towards self-dualization and learning not to take too much notice of what other people think of me and express my thoughts and believes anyway. For most of my life, I took responsibility for other peoples emotional well-being and it got me nowhere. Now was my behavior immoral? I think morality is an invalid concept invented by people who are afraid to stand alone, and that each and everyone of you is responsible for their own emotions. You've been taken for a ride as I have been consciously applying insights from the Leary Circumplex. To me, it was very worthwhile and I thank you all for your participation.
2. you (plural again) have no understanding of interpersonal dynamics (and social psychology as well), which involves much more than just Socionic type. The attempts of most people here to reduce everything to Socionics principles and ignore all the rest of scientific knowledge that is out there, is simply self-serving, shortsighted and pathological.
3. Most of you are simply too young to understand at a psychological level the full nature of personality development and the fact that a lot of people somewhere in life learn to be flexible, and grow from subconsciously driven behavior to more consciously driven behavior (this process is called individuation). Most of you, whatever you IQ or type, are still at the stage where your behavior is driven largely from evolutionary older parts of the brain, which is why you are typable in the first place.
4. I myself have learned the hard way that being empathetic does more often than not, not help people. Sometimes you need to balance empathy with the ability to create crisis and discomfort in another human being in order to trigger a response that will allow another person to grow. This is called "provocative coaching", and I cannot see the response of most of you towards me other than pathological attempt to keep the status quo of your neurosis. Now that's perfectly OK, your life is your responsibility and your responsibility alone. But if you think that it is I who is hurting you by behaving in an inappropriate manner, then you simply aren't individuated enough, it does not say anything about me In any case, I do not have to be ashamed for my ideas, and have every right to express those ideas and not to be concerned by how these ideas might push other people's red buttons.

I have no illusions about you understanding this at this very moment. All I wish for you is that some day you will discover this too, because that will be the day you will find inner peace, connectedness to all of reality and a creativity that is not neurotic in nature.

Edit: P.S. I said above that 'you never asked and are only assuming things'. I would like to point out the only exception here on this forum: Herzy, who took it upon her to not assume anything about me. I felt that was an admirable quality.

[inumbra]

For most of my life, I took responsibility for other peoples emotional well-being and it got me nowhere. Now was my behavior immoral? I think morality is an invalid concept invented by people who are afraid to stand alone, and that each and everyone of you is responsible for their own emotions.

I agree with the bolded statement. And I think I understand where you're coming from.

The attempts of most people here to reduce everything to Socionics principles and ignore all the rest of scientific knowledge that is out there, is simply self-serving, shortsighted and pathological.

I think you're right about this... except... I don't think that people are really trying to reduce everything to socionics as much as it may appear... Socionics is a rather abstract theory... I think that people (especially at first) tend to look at every trait they see (when they notice patterns) and think "could that be related to type? " I think this happens because (at least for me) it's difficult (especially at first) to differentiate what is type-related in the theory and what is not. I think there are a few people who really do try to reduce everything to socionics, but I think they are well, few, and far between.

Most of you, whatever you IQ or type, are still at the stage where your behavior is driven largely from evolutionary older parts of the brain, which is why you are typable in the first place.

This is interesting. Does it tie in with what you said about Delta in your sig?

I myself have learned the hard way that being empathetic does more often than not, not help people.

I agree with this.

Sometimes you need to balance empathy with the ability to create crisis and discomfort in another human being in order to trigger a response that will allow another person to grow.

Maybe... but only if you know what you're doing... creating certain sorts of crisis and discomfort in people could be damaging depending on the person (if you don't know what you're doing).

This is called "provocative coaching", and I cannot see the response of most of you towards me other than pathological attempt to keep the status quo of your neurosis.

If you've found ways to have more healthy behavior yourself, that's great, but trying to "diagnose" others on the forum or saying we're all pathological (except for Herzy), isn't that going a bit far?

[XoX]

trying to "diagnose" others on the forum or saying we're all pathological (except for Herzy), isn't that going a bit far?

It isn't "going a bit far". It is just pure emotionally motivated bs aimed at causing maximum pain on whoever is easily affected. And the Herzy comment just means he wants to get into Herzy's panties (which I guess it not that uncommon so I don't judge too harshly for that). Well, there might be some bits and pieces of truth hidden under his emotional attack. So whoever is interested can take a look and try to figure out what he really means. What I don't understand why he always makes such a big deal about leaving and threathning to leave. He could just post in the Delta and be happy. Every disagreement is taken very personally by him I think.

[inumbra]

I find it "interesting" how I seem to shift all forum matters to the "middle ground."

[FDG]

whahahaha, you're so funny. You think you understand what's happening, but in reality, you don't know shit. You seeing yourself as ENTj is only to keep you from jumping of a skyscraper. This is what you are:

17. UNRELENTING STANDARDS / HYPERCRITICALNESS (US)

The underlying belief that one must strive to meet very high internalized standards of behavior and performance, usually to avoid criticism. Typically results in feelings of pressure or difficulty slowing down; and in hypercriticalness toward oneself and others. Must involve significant impairment in: pleasure, relaxation, health, self-esteem, sense of accomplishment, or satisfying relationships.
Unrelenting standards typically present as: (a) perfectionism, inordinate attention to detail, or an underestimate of how good one's own performance is relative to the norm; (b) rigid rules and “shoulds” in many areas of life, including unrealistically high moral, ethical, cultural, or religious precepts; or (c) preoccupation with time and efficiency, so that more can be accomplished.

You don't fool me for a single second.

Uhm, lol. This actually made me smile. Jumping a skyscraper?

By the way, what I find even more funny is that you think you're "provoking an emotional reaction" and "hurting" people this way to make them see the truth. You only look like a crazy fool that randomly throws psychological diagnoses at people, actually. Not our savior.

[FDG]

I think you're right about this... except... I don't think that people are really trying to reduce everything to socionics as much as it may appear... Socionics is a rather abstract theory... I think that people (especially at first) tend to look at every trait they see (when they notice patterns) and think "could that be related to type? " I think this happens because (at least for me) it's difficult (especially at first) to differentiate what is type-related in the theory and what is not. I think there are a few people who really do try to reduce everything to socionics, but I think they are well, few, and far between.

We're in a socionics forum. It's stupid to complain (consentingadult) that we only talk about socionics. Do you go to toyota forums complaining that "there are also other cars?"?

[idealistichick]

It's not just ENFjs, it's the whole Beta quadra. Betas have the least potential for individuation and are most dependent on other people for survival, both physical and psychological. They are the babies and toddlers of the Socion, even more than Alphas, because Betas with their valued Se do not allow people to choose their own path, and Alphas are more likely to allow that.

As any other information element, the purpose of Fe is strictly selfish. However, I don't think there isn't an information element that tries to shift responsibility to other people as much as Fe does.

I have spoken again.

You are entitled to your own opinion obviously. I just hate the way people percieve Betas and especially ENFjs. It still bothers me to see how people think we're maniacs.

[Kristiina]

You are entitled to your own opinion obviously. I just hate the way people percieve Betas and especially ENFjs. It still bothers me to see how people think we're maniacs.

There are two types that are percieved as manics - ENFjs and ESFps. Fortunately Britney and Paris Hilton didn't get dumped on us... But I guess ****** makes up for it tenfold.

[Polly_G]

I don't feel that way really about ENFJs. They can be sensitive and they can be controlling but that's a very small part about them. Sincere, responsibe, supportive, protective, creative, and layered are the descriptive words I'd probably use.

I really like ENFJs but really close relations I find are hard with them. I think their feelings are too sensitive to expose to my analytical scrutiny. I think they keep their distance from me in that sense.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

ENFps and ENFjs don't usually get along because they both want to be in charge of situations and have large egos and neither likes to step back. They would work better as acquaintances or casual friends then anything else.

I disagree. I usually don't care to be in charge. I mean, it'd be nice (provided everyone did what I said), but I'm not gonna step up and take control. That said, my father tests ENFJ on MBTI. This could explain why we sometimes have heated arguments.

[Shazaam]

Oh, I'm perfectly willing to admit that I am or that such is the perception! Question always remains if this says something about me, about the perceiver, or both of us.

Stop talking like an ass.

[XoX]

Hey now, BulletsAndDoves is awesome.

BulletsAndDoves is an interesting personality I agree. Deep inside a very nice guy no doubt. Probably not the same type as consentingadult in the end. INFp and ENFp they are I guess. However the way BulletsAndDoves sometimes expresses himself makes me want to tie him up and gag him and force him to watch "Little House on the Prairie" for 12 hours in a row. And I mean this in a totally non gay way. Just to make him a bit more considerate. Or something.

[Shazaam]

Because consentingINFpadult gets on my nerves, that's why Nothing business just personal. He is like the missing identical brother of B&D.

WHAT??? HE IS NOTHING LIKE ME!!! I AM NOT THIS ASS-Y. I AM A NICE GUY, REALLY. JEESH.

[Shazaam]

Just to make him a bit more considerate. Or something.

If anything I am *too* considerate.

Something about this forum brings out a certain side of me. I dunno what it is, but there ya have it.

I can't hurt a fly, and I throw like a girl. *a horrible gay stereotype that I fit, but it does humanize me.* It's my weakness...just teleport me to a football field and watch the deer-in-headlights commence. =)

Although that doesn't mean I'm good at fashion or faggy shit like that. Blech. The whole metrosexual look is stupid. I don't give a fuck what people wear. I only care about how men look NAKED- who cares about anything else.

Anyways, there's no reason to be intimidated by me....although careful, you're actually boosting my ego by letting me know that I can be threatening. RAWR!

[Shazaam]

Hey now, BulletsAndDoves is awesome.

Thanks for defending me! You understand the complexity of my zanyness.

[XoX]

WHAT??? HE IS NOTHING LIKE ME!!! I AM NOT THIS ASS-Y. I AM A NICE GUY, REALLY. JEESH.

You just need to expand your vision a bit. New viewpoints and such. Little House on the Prairie works miracles.

[Angel Alliterator]

Sometimes I wonder if some of these people who have this irrational and illogical hatred towards specific types (and in this case ENFj) are in the political scene or a work environment where they have clashed with an authoritative ENFj. It seems like the hatred for ENFj is rooted in personal and emotional feeling.

disagree. I usually don't care to be in charge. I mean, it'd be nice (provided everyone did what I said), but I'm not gonna step up and take control. That said, my father tests ENFJ on MBTI. This could explain why we sometimes have heated arguments.

I like ENFps, they are quirky and can be very sweet-natured, very social and they are downright cool.

HOWEVER, I always clash with them (especially if we are getting closer) because we have very different ways on how we deal and cope with situations.

ENFps drive me crazy with their mixed ambiguous messages and their need for freedom and constant-change. It's great once in a while and fun at parties but it's highly annoying (and delusional IMO) on a DAILY everyday life.

So I've come to the conclusion that ENFps and ENFjs work better as acquaintances or casual friends then as intimate friends or romantic relationship.

[consentingadult]

WHAT??? HE IS NOTHING LIKE ME!!! I AM NOT THIS ASS-Y. I AM A NICE GUY, REALLY. JEESH.

So you really think it's important to be a nice guy, ai? Tell us, are you afraid to stand alone in life, that you really need to be perceived as a nice guy?

13. SELF-SACRIFICE (SS)

Excessive focus on voluntarily meeting the needs of others in daily situations, at the expense of one's own gratification. The most common reasons are: to prevent causing pain to others; to avoid guilt from feeling selfish; or to maintain the connection with others perceived as needy . Often results from an acute sensitivity to the pain of others. Sometimes leads to a sense that one's own needs are not being adequately met and to resentment of those who are taken care of. (Overlaps with concept of codependency.)

[Angel Alliterator]

Not that this is related to the above but I never did get the whole "Self-Sacrifice" bit that is sometimes correlated with ENFj.

I am hardly self-sacrificing in the traditional sense, however I do tend to sacrifice genuine feeling for feelings that is expected of me and my image.

[Expat]

Not that this is related to the above but I never did get the whole "Self-Sacrifice" bit that is sometimes correlated with ENFj.

I'm not sure that's the case. Can you be more specific?

[Cuddly McFluffles]

If anything I am *too* considerate.

Something about this forum brings out a certain side of me. I dunno what it is, but there ya have it.

Perhaps it's your chance to let out those feelings that you don't express (for whatever reason) offline?

[Angel Alliterator]

I'm not sure that's the case. Can you be more specific?

Aren't most ENFj descriptions always mentioned Self-Sacrifice as part of the ENFjs repertoire? But then again I think it's correlated more to ESFj then ENFj.

[Kristiina]

everyone would self-sacrifice for the right reasons. Not type related. And I don't think self-sacrificing is noble - in most contexts in most movies/books, self-sacrifice is just stupid. Usually people trade equal for equal. One life for another, neither life is better than the other one. Or one life path for another. Self-sacrifice is usually very dramatic, but doesn't change much.

[Angel Alliterator]

Self-Sacrifice in general *is* seen as noble, I personally don't agree as it all depends on the context and situation.

ENFjs I believe are self-sacrificing when it comes to feelings (not showing the real self).

ESFjs are traditionally self-sacrificing.

[Kristiina]

Self-Sacrifice in general *is* seen as noble, I personally don't agree as it all depends on the context and situation.

ENFjs I believe are self-sacrificing when it comes to feelings (not showing the real self).

ESFjs are traditionally self-sacrificing.

I see what you mean.

But in the classic sense, Fe-creative types are more self-sacrificing when it comes to feelings. They hold back their emotions for the sake of relations. I usually like to blurt things out. It's my business to see that there is communication and it's other people's business to deal with it. I wouldn't call myself self-sacrificing. even if it is generally seen as noble!

[FDG]

So you really think it's important to be a nice guy, ai? Tell us, are you afraid to stand alone in life, that you really need to be perceived as a nice guy?

GET - AWAY - FROM - THIS - fORUM !!!

[Dioklecian]

I haven't read tis thread, I promisse to read all the replies and respond to them. I started this thread because of a weird event: a male ENFJ spoted me from a distance and then he sort of worked up some kind of offensive eyeing me from a distance and when we passed each other he sort of did something. not sure what the whole thing was about. I thought it was some kinf of dominance thing. Since then I had a similar event with another ENFJ that also I don't know. He spoke German apprently, there is no way I ever met him before and same thing: he eyed me from a distance and sort of worked up some offensive. Not sure again what the point was. I also had a clash with an ENFJ at my former place of worship, he decided to give me the cold shoulder and then FORCED everyone else to do the same to me. Of course I just left that sorry little place, but it was odd: she would opene her eyes in a WEIRD way and sort of eye me with them as if to swallow me with them, and when it wouldn't work she would say hello or something. Very bizzarre.

[inumbra]

eyes in the dark, one moon circles

[Gilly]

Of course I just left that sorry little place, but it was odd: she would opene her eyes in a WEIRD way and sort of eye me with them as if to swallow me with them, and when it wouldn't work she would say hello or something. Very bizzarre.

oh god.

[Kristiina]

I haven't read tis thread, I promisse to read all the replies and respond to them. I started this thread because of a weird event: a male ENFJ spoted me from a distance and then he sort of worked up some kind of offensive eyeing me from a distance and when we passed each other he sort of did something. not sure what the whole thing was about. I thought it was some kinf of dominance thing. Since then I had a similar event with another ENFJ that also I don't know. He spoke German apprently, there is no way I ever met him before and same thing: he eyed me from a distance and sort of worked up some offensive. Not sure again what the point was. I also had a clash with an ENFJ at my former place of worship, he decided to give me the cold shoulder and then FORCED everyone else to do the same to me. Of course I just left that sorry little place, but it was odd: she would opene her eyes in a WEIRD way and sort of eye me with them as if to swallow me with them, and when it wouldn't work she would say hello or something. Very bizzarre.

haha, maybe they hate you. I do that when I hate someone!

Another theory - what you're refferring to is Si PoLR. They don't just relax and greet people. They assume people want them to behave in some certain way. So they try to figure out how they are SUPPOSED TO behave and get all nervous and unnatural. So they stare at the other person (especially eyes) to figure out what's expected of them. If they start observing someone who gives no clues to what's expected of the ENFj, they will not be able to show the correct greeting. ...stare...stare... nervous stare.."... uhm, hi". But becuase it's so stressed and unnatural, it looks almost like some sort of dominance ritual.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

ENFj's feel the need to get to know those they interact with and get under their skin. If you do not present the opportunity for them to do this it is likely they will respond by attempting to be hostile and somewhat mocking towards the person.

[Kristiina]

ENFj's feel the need to get to know those they interact with and get under their skin. If you do not present the opportunity for them to do this it is likely they will respond by attempting to be hostile and somewhat mocking towards the person.

So... Tell me, did you have any brothers or sisters? What's your favourite color?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

So... Tell me, did you have any brothers or sisters? What's your favourite color?

I really..want..to open up

[shakealittle]

Old thread, I know but....

I haven't read tis thread, I promisse to read all the replies and respond to them. I started this thread because of a weird event: a male ENFJ spoted me from a distance and then he sort of worked up some kind of offensive eyeing me from a distance and when we passed each other he sort of did something. not sure what the whole thing was about. I thought it was some kinf of dominance thing. Since then I had a similar event with another ENFJ that also I don't know. He spoke German apprently, there is no way I ever met him before and same thing: he eyed me from a distance and sort of worked up some offensive. Not sure again what the point was. I also had a clash with an ENFJ at my former place of worship, he decided to give me the cold shoulder and then FORCED everyone else to do the same to me. Of course I just left that sorry little place, but it was odd: she would opene her eyes in a WEIRD way and sort of eye me with them as if to swallow me with them, and when it wouldn't work she would say hello or something. Very bizzarre.

I recently had a similar experience to this at work the other week. It all started when a new girl (ESI) came into the office. One of my EIE co-workers noticed that I was on friendly terms with her, so as soon as the ESI and I finished conversation, the EIE called her over and started to try and act all funny and charming towards her. Then later on I went over to speak to the ESI and the EIE soon followed, inviting her to lunch, totally ignoring me. I didn't react to the situation and the EIE now is a bit dismissive of me and does as described above....stares me down.....I guess, but really likes the ESI.

When EIEs play these emotional games, it really breaches my beliefs on how people should treat others and honestly, I have a hard time tolerating and forgiving EIEs after they act like that. So is it possible to have a genuine friendship with an EIE while still escaping this controlling attitude of theirs? I don't see how the EIE-LSI duality survives this power struggle because I'm not keen to surrender to them.

Btw, this has happened to me a number of times with EIEs and I'm wondering if they feel the need to control me because they can see I'm their dual and need me? Not trying to sound arrogant here!!

[unefille]

Old thread, I know but....



I recently had a similar experience to this at work the other week. It all started when a new girl (ESI) came into the office. One of my EIE co-workers noticed that I was on friendly terms with her, so as soon as the ESI and I finished conversation, the EIE called her over and started to try and act all funny and charming towards her. Then later on I went over to speak to the ESI and the EIE soon followed, inviting her to lunch, totally ignoring me. I didn't react to the situation and the EIE now is a bit dismissive of me and does as described above....stares me down.....I guess, but really likes the ESI.

When EIEs play these emotional games, it really breaches my beliefs on how people should treat others and honestly, I have a hard time tolerating and forgiving EIEs after they act like that. So is it possible to have a genuine friendship with an EIE while still escaping this controlling attitude of theirs? I don't see how the EIE-LSI duality survives this power struggle because I'm not keen to surrender to them.

Btw, this has happened to me a number of times with EIEs and I'm wondering if they feel the need to control me because they can see I'm their dual and need me? Not trying to sound arrogant here!!

They're probably pissed off at you and punishing you. They didn't like the way you treated the new girl (ESI) -- you probably did something with your behaviour that slighted them, upset them, made them feel 'replaced' or 'demoted'. So being nice to the person you slighted them for and 'taking' that person away from you is the automatic response. Sort of like saying: 'look, if I wanted to, I could make you feel the same way -- but normally I don't, so you shouldn't either because it feels crappy.' They'll probably also get over it soon, once they feel they've punished you enough and worked it out of their system.