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Thread: Hidden Agenda of IEIs-INFps: introverted logic Ti

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    No it's not (as Herzy pointed out) - it is, however, a good example of the no true Scotsman fallacy.
    True but "no true Scotsman" fallacy is a primary example of Ti >> Te fallacy.

    Here for reference:
    Argument: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
    Reply: "But my uncle Angus, who is a Scotsman, likes sugar with his porridge."
    Rebuttal: "Aye, but no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."

    A Te >> Ti fallacy would be roughly something like:
    Argument: "Human and chimpanzee do not have common ancestors"
    Reply: "But human and chimpanzee share many common features like having 97% of their dna in common. Human and cat have somewhat less. Human and worm even less. Human and bacteria even less. But still they all share something in common. It is the most logical conclusion that they have common ancestors"
    Rebuttal. "So does water melon and cloud have the same ancestors because they both have similar level of water concentration? Perhaps they both descend from humans who have a little bit less? Your argument is just stupid."

    The lesson: try to use functions in some kind of balanced way. Like Herzy apparently does (except perhaps Fi ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    i actually see this as evidence against IEI. the PoLR function is not something that a person is necessarily able to devalue, but rather they purposefully avoid as it can be a source of pain and misunderstanding. when someone is "PoLR"d they tend to overreact and even claim malicious intent against them - this reaction isn't controlled and the individual tends to rely on their strong functions to "strike" back. In the case of IEI, and I would know because I've done this, the reaction often has a Fe sharpened point, hence the reoccurring theme on the forums that IEIs can be emotionally manipulative. Hitta doesn't have the capability to manipulate emotion on that level because he does not have Fe in his ego block.
    I could see LSI for hitta, but not LII.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I could see LSI for hitta, but not LII.
    It doesn't make sense that you can see LSI for hitta. He is of course not an LSI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    It doesn't make sense that you can see LSI for hitta. He is of course not an LSI.
    Then what is he?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    No it's not (as Herzy pointed out) - it is, however, a good example of the no true Scotsman fallacy.
    lol. Nice one. And I just thought it meant he wouldn't wear anything under his kilt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Then what is he?
    I don't know what type he is. He is certainly much more likely LII than LSI, but SG made quite a good case for creative in a thread about hitta's (WhyMustWeKill) type, and many people seem to see some similarities between hitta and myself, so I wouldn't rule out any of the possibilities SLI or ILI, based on what I know about him.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think he is sei instead.
    SEI or IEI makes even less sense for hitta. Wake up from your dreams.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think he is sei instead.
    I don't think that's a bad typing, except that what he chooses to talk about in his videos (that I've seen) indicates Ni>Si. Contrast with TheMime, who goes for Si rather than Ni.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I don't think that's a bad typing, except that what he chooses to talk about in his videos (that I've seen) indicates Ni>Si. Contrast with TheMime, who goes for Si rather than Ni.
    To suggest SEI for hitta is simply ridiculous. It is a really bad typing, and if Expat's argument here is strong, it clearly suggests ILI as the most likely type for hitta.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    To suggest SEI for hitta is simply ridiculous. It is a really bad typing, and if Expat's argument here is strong, it clearly suggests ILI as the most likely type for hitta.
    What is your case for creative- for hitta?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    What is your case for creative- for hitta?
    http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435 (the whole thread, especially #31 and thereafter). After that it thas been commented on in other threads too. I don't remember exactly which right now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    http://www.socionics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435 (the whole thread, especially #31 and thereafter). After that it thas been commented on in other threads too. I don't remember exactly which right now.
    I'm not registered for that forum and do not want to register just for this case. So why do you not tell me in your own words as to why you think hitta has creative ?
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    i actually see this as evidence against IEI. the PoLR function is not something that a person is necessarily able to devalue, but rather they purposefully avoid as it can be a source of pain and misunderstanding. when someone is "PoLR"d they tend to overreact and even claim malicious intent against them - this reaction isn't controlled and the individual tends to rely on their strong functions to "strike" back.
    I don't quite agree that this is necessarily the reaction of being "PoLR"d; simple silence as in a "why is he even caring about this?" bafflement is as likely I think.

    What I see hitta doing whenever you present him with Te - as in, he says something about "all socionists saying this" or "nobody takes temperaments seriously" - then you give him a link to socionics papers that prove him wrong, or you explain that precisely his main source, Gulenko, has written a lot on temperaments - he just ignores it, and soon afterwards he may well repeat exactly the same point. He does "strike back" with Fe as in basically trying to undermine the forum as a whole, as in "nobody is interested in changes" etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    In the case of IEI, and I would know because I've done this, the reaction often has a Fe sharpened point, hence the reoccurring theme on the forums that IEIs can be emotionally manipulative. Hitta doesn't have the capability to manipulate emotion on that level because he does not have Fe in his ego block.
    Okay, that is a strong case against IEI, but you see, those who do have Ti in the ego block have difficulty seeing hitta as Ti ego. So perhaps the issue is that hitta sucks at so many functions.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I'm not registered for that forum and do not want to register just for this case. So why do you not tell me in your own words as to why you think hitta has creative ?
    Basically, because his arguments are similar in structure to my own, which was illustrated pretty well in that thread. One of SG's points was (said to hitta):

    Quote Originally Posted by SG
    I've also re-read your explanations several times just to see how you wrote them. If you go back and read them yourself they look mostly like: Fact. Fact. Fact -> because (some reasoning bridge). Fact. Fact. This is so not how Ti works but rather how Te works. Of course Te cannot be just facts, you need to link them with bridges of WHY BECAUSE, but you have not even done that enough.

    So I'd say you are quite likely 2nd possibly

    Of course you VI like that even more.

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    Default IEI-INFp Ti hidden agenda: what is it?

    What is your hidden agenda, IEIs?

    You want to understand - that is the 6th function Ti. Tell me about this. Unpack it. Lay it out. Let me inspect it.

    What do you want to understand? Human relations? God? Philosophy? Would you use an understanding of psychology perhaps as an alternative pathway to asserting your leadership?

    Your hidden agenda - elaborate.

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    Well with me, it seems very apparent in the sense that I completely believe that there is a formula for the result of any event, and if I want to achieve a particular result in an event, depending on what the event is, I can spend up to months trying to figure what the formula is that creates that particular result... by event I mean literally anything, from how to write songs like John Lennon, to how to flip a coin and make it land on heads 10x in a row, or how to walk down the stairs on your hands. Whatever my interest, I become determined to 'understand' how the result is achieved, what is the technique, what are the patterns, what are the links, the angles, the forces that created this particular result

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    hmmm... excellent. Now we need more INFp's to respond.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saberstorm View Post
    Would you use an understanding of psychology perhaps as an alternative pathway to asserting your leadership?
    yes. I do seek to understand people and have used socionics to do this (along with other things). I also seek out big questions on the nature of the universe, death, how history has determined where we are now, blah blah blah. I loved my philosophy class in college. Basically, everything is interesting to me although I don't have a lot of patience for things like mechanics or extreme mathematics although I respect those fields. I also seek understanding through various artistic mediums which capture my imagination while also twisting perspectives on basic human experiences and emotions.
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    HA = manifests as asking a lot of questions and clarifying i have understood

    I'm drawn to understanding people and models for doing things i.e. MBTI, socionics and tips to improve Te.

    I think these things feed my HA and help me deal with my Polar

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    I look for patterns to develop an understanding for how to glean advantages and get ahead.

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    it's like walking into the garden of eden and heading right for the tree of knowledge … then trying to take a bite out of as many of the fruit as you can and when you're finally full you start thinking what else you can do … so then you start making juice out of them, and you make forbidden fruit of knowledge sandwiches and forbidden fruit of knowledge lasagna and forbidden fruit of knowledge chop suey, though that requires meat but you manage to make it just out of forbidden fruit … and of course pies … and you just can't stop even though you know that you will bring pain and suffering onto yourself when god sees all those forbidden fruit pies that you've made

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    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    You forgot jam! How could you forget jam...
    haha it did feel like something was missing, those forbidden knowledge sandwiches tasted kind of bland

    Quote Originally Posted by octopuslove View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by IEI View Post
    I'm drawn to understanding people and models for doing things i.e. MBTI, socionics and tips to improve Te.
    Yeah that too, I love legal arguments and neat models and colourful stationery and filing systems and turning things into flow charts...
    yeah same, I loved the molecular modeling class I took last year of college even though a lot of it didn't really serve any useful purpose ... reminds me of this guy and his nanoscale models, he has gotta be Ti

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    I have trouble articulating myself, unlike ESTp's on the spot. I fantasize alot where I convey an idea to someone clearly and concisely, wowing them in the process . I over analyse, not things, but people and behaviour. I think the mathematical harmony of socionics is beautiful!!

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    I describe it as the urge to organize information.

    The best example of IEI with Ti-HA is William Blake and his "system" of prophecy and prophetic figures. He comes up with a whole mystic system in an attempt to give form and shape and concreteness to visions. IEIs use Ti just as Plato recommended: to tie vision down with account. Ni is true belief, gestalt, emergent, I-did-not-see-and-now-I-see; I-did-not-know-and-now-I-know---it reflects the "object" view of knowledge: you either know a thing or you don't. Ni is the crossing out of ignorance and into knowledge. Ti is the building of a bridge to explain how you got there, to explain to air, to link the heavens to the earth, to make true nonsense make sense, to tie it down with account. To me, the hidden agenda of the IEI is to take all these maximally occluded visions, these secrets that s/he priviliages as secret knowledge, as my knowledge, as what-I-know-what-I-am, and organize them into a comprehensible system.

    Of course this manifests in more mundane and less spiritual ways, but that's just a good way to demonstrate that the soul is the image of the body and the body is the image of the soul (that is, that as it is in heaven, so it is on earth; or, ideal socionics in the ideational plays itself out in action). More mundane ways include my love for organizing my desktop, my awe and respect for clearly, cleanly described information, rather than messy, disorganized information. And some might say that the truth is the messy disorganized bit because life can't be organized like that into boxes and once you make the boxes you're lying, but I love the boxes because it makes things go from mess to something comprehensible and, darn it, pretty and good!
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Ni feels like an impersonal uniform field of what is as observed by the person, while Ti creates peaks and valleys in this uniform field, imbuing it with value judgments and thereby giving it some kind of form, structure, logical prioritization. Without Ti the IEI wouldn't be able to make much sense of what's happening.

    Edit: These quotes sound like Ti hidden agenda.
    • "The pendulum of the mind alternates between sense and nonsense, not between right and wrong." - IEI-Ni
    • "What does it mean to understand a movie? It means to condense it into a single algorithm." - IEI-Ni (involutionary introverted logic)
    Last edited by silke; 05-21-2015 at 05:21 PM.

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    I dont like how earlier in this topic our HA got described as closemindedness. I see it as quite the opposite - being open to any idea as long as it's logically consistent. I'm often fascinated by crazy ideas that most people disregard as ridiculous from the start, but which can't be easily disproven within its logical framework. I mean theories like hollow Earth or conspiracy theories or sects (I'm one of few people who enjoy talking with Jehowa's witnesses). Socionics too.

    I treat every theory as equally true untill they're proven or disproven.

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    Not sure why people seem to think IEI's can't articulate themselves, but SLEs can. It's the other way around, especially when on the spot. SLEs are talkative in the sense that they will ask questions and correctly fit the social expectations of the group they are in. They are also good at showing others how to be proficient in a certain task. But many have the problem of "not really having anything to say." They don't really have opinions about people or ideas.

    IEIs, on the other hand, have tons of opinions and can be very articulate, even eloquent, on the spot. When they need to elaborate a lot (much of academia consists of elaborating - to me this like talking for a long time without straying from the point or saying anything new - I admit it's a skill) then they falter. It makes perfect sense in their head, but they've made so many connections to reach this point that they can't explain them all and don't even want to. The point they've reached is usually correct though.

    Anyway, I think Ti-HA is looking for the best way to keep track of those connections, arranging them in an order, and even more preferably, in a hierarchy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    I describe it as the urge to organize information.

    The best example of IEI with Ti-HA is William Blake and his "system" of prophecy and prophetic figures. He comes up with a whole mystic system in an attempt to give form and shape and concreteness to visions. IEIs use Ti just as Plato recommended: to tie vision down with account. Ni is true belief, gestalt, emergent, I-did-not-see-and-now-I-see; I-did-not-know-and-now-I-know---it reflects the "object" view of knowledge: you either know a thing or you don't. Ni is the crossing out of ignorance and into knowledge. Ti is the building of a bridge to explain how you got there, to explain to air, to link the heavens to the earth, to make true nonsense make sense, to tie it down with account. To me, the hidden agenda of the IEI is to take all these maximally occluded visions, these secrets that s/he priviliages as secret knowledge, as my knowledge, as what-I-know-what-I-am, and organize them into a comprehensible system.

    Of course this manifests in more mundane and less spiritual ways, but that's just a good way to demonstrate that the soul is the image of the body and the body is the image of the soul (that is, that as it is in heaven, so it is on earth; or, ideal socionics in the ideational plays itself out in action). More mundane ways include my love for organizing my desktop, my awe and respect for clearly, cleanly described information, rather than messy, disorganized information. And some might say that the truth is the messy disorganized bit because life can't be organized like that into boxes and once you make the boxes you're lying, but I love the boxes because it makes things go from mess to something comprehensible and, darn it, pretty and good!
    This. Have experienced this firsthand with an IEI I was close to. More than understand, he had a desire to organize everything he came across. if something didn't fit in with his constructed framework, he wouldn't consider it. I felt like I just "saw" how the concepts worked in real life and would be tasked with explaining it to him while he focused more on studying the concepts themselves obsessively. Both he and an ILE told me I should focus less on "anecdotal evidence" of types and intertype relations, lol. I actually sort of envied this about him when it came to academics, though. He wrote the best essays.
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    for me it typically manifests as a need to maintain a certain degree of intellectual control, and a lack of regard for differing external information/opinion when I know I have the right idea. Ti-EPs are systematically in control but unsure of themselves/their perceptual world, in this regard.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    My best friend is IEI, generally intellectual, and easygoing about many things. But she can flare up in a really unpleasant way if I introduce noise and/or dissent where she has made up her mind about something and invested herself in it somehow. I don't always figure out in advance what points will be contentious.

    Example: talked to her this weekend about a utopian novel she just finished teaching. When we discussed the novel's world versus reality, and I questioned one of the author's choices that my friend cares about, she kind of suddenly ... hissed and spat about it.

    This happens regularly. I don't think the point for her is investigating "objective" rightness or wrongness in these moments. The priority is to keep a concept plugged in where she fit it into her thinking process. She might change her mind about things, but it appears to require some kind of reorganization that I'm not party to.

    Maybe it's Ti HA, maybe not.

    Yes, people of all types will defend their views and whatnot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post
    This happens regularly. I don't think the point for her is investigating "objective" rightness or wrongness in these moments. The priority is to keep a concept plugged in where she fit it into her thinking process. She might change her mind about things, but it appears to require some kind of reorganization that I'm not party to.
    ^I think this is more of an Ni thing but I very agree. I think NI is very sensitive to the relationships between ideas, and how if you remove one idea from the structure, the whole structure has to shift in weird ways. So if you ARE going to change your mind, you have to reorganize at a pretty deep level, sometimes even a not-very-conscious level.

    Also I wonder about how Se and Ti are blocked in the superid (that is a dumb term but oh well.) In my experience there's a lot of "If I understand it then I can control it/shape it/act upon it" to my thinking. It also has an NiFe bent because the primary sphere where "if I understand it then I can act upon it" operates is me thinking about myself, me thinking about how my own mind works, that sort of thing.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Also I was totally right about that William Blake thing but there was a lot of performative gobbledy**** surrounding it. But I guess of the functions an internet forum can serve for a human, providing a place to purge one's self of the performative gobbledy**** that is an unfortunate waste product of the smart loud late adolescent boy is not the worst available option.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

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    Hi! Thanks! I mean, I tend to pop in from time to time and then disappear again for a few weeks/months. That'll probably be the case this time as well.
    Not a rule, just a trend.

    IEI. Probably Fe subtype. Pretty sure I'm E4, sexual instinctual type, fairly confident that I'm a 3 wing now, so: IEI-Fe E4w3 sx/so. Considering 3w4 now, but pretty sure that 4 fits the best.

    Yes 'a ma'am that's pretty music...

    I am grateful for the mystery of the soul, because without it, there could be no contemplation, except of the mysteries of divinity, which are far more dangerous to get wrong.

  34. #74
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverchris9 View Post
    ^I think this is more of an Ni thing but I very agree. I think NI is very sensitive to the relationships between ideas, and how if you remove one idea from the structure, the whole structure has to shift in weird ways. So if you ARE going to change your mind, you have to reorganize at a pretty deep level, sometimes even a not-very-conscious level.

    Also I wonder about how Se and Ti are blocked in the superid (that is a dumb term but oh well.) In my experience there's a lot of "If I understand it then I can control it/shape it/act upon it" to my thinking. It also has an NiFe bent because the primary sphere where "if I understand it then I can act upon it" operates is me thinking about myself, me thinking about how my own mind works, that sort of thing.
    Interesting. I guess I hadn't thought of this as Ni, because for me Ni doesn't work quite that way. I've examined canyon walls and felt like I was seeing several layers of time all at once, interconnected -- take out any of the layers, and it would simply be a different canyon altogether, in a different world that maybe I would never even exist in. Maybe that's kind of like Ni -- I thought so. But I don't seem to treat ideas this way. I remove thoughts from blocs of thoughts, like sliding out Jenga pieces, or work stepwise and not really know where I'm going, and it's okay.

  35. #75
    Haikus niffer's Avatar
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    I notice that Ti Hidden Agenda people get really horny when they have opportunities to explain their views and rationale on things. They just want stuff to make sense, and they want to tell other people about it. Their ability to be in touch with objectivity that will confirm their ideas is weak, but eventually with age as they get a bit better at it, they tend to have more legitimately verifiable ideas and also weed out their old previously existing bullshit ideas as well. ISFp tends to seem more intellectual and objective earlier on in age but eventually gets bored with typical intellectualism and just wants new ideas. INFp tends to seem fluffier when younger but later on develops a harder edge and seems more intensely devoted to academic-type knowledge and acquiring ability and skill within that realm.

  36. #76
    Hot Scalding Gayser's Avatar
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    /Dark BnD uses Necromancer powers to revive this.

    I think the issue is that strong Te thinks or knows it's going to be right eventually (and often is) and so it doesn't understand or need to have everything be logically categorized/organized so much. It will call a spade a raspberry if it can sell the spade for cash for some private Fi reason. Te knows how dynamic it is and that it will be 'right eventually' for virtue of exploitation (though it needs Fi's ethical help to do this) and will kinda fanwank a bunch of external experiences & anecdotes that it had in order to be right anyway. Te isn't so much about being right as it is fooling people you are right because you're not being a shy emo fag about it. ((remember Te is like the exact opposite of Fe.)) So lots of people get duped by it, when the Ti is actually much better. Te often says things in the most sophisticated and snobby way possible but the actual logic behind it is actually complete bullshit but nobody cares because the 4D Te person was "confident" about it and the IEI was just some shy easily-picked on loser.

    I basically need Ti to function and to ground my feelings or I'm too emotional and just all heart with no brains more than I already am lol. It is also mobilizing function so Ti just is a good thing to get me moving on something and less in the yucky Fi-Fe swamp as I can get 'stuck' there too much. Ti... I use it to move thru reality. To logically get from point A to point B. If IEI was 1D in Ti - holy shit. Then we really would just be phantom incorporeal ghosts.

    Ti really is the best function IEIs have for navigating 'the real world.' Because let's see 4D Ni- makes us mystical all-powerful Shaman Seers but still not reality based enough. Okay you're the world's best prophet but you still don't have a real job stupid IEI lolol. 3D Fe is just creative artistic fag shit, still not "real" enough. 3D ignoring Ne is more of the same with Ni really- we're good at it but can't be bothered to use it unless we need it to protect others from invasions. IEI's often use Ne to protect things they care about. Ne is like our shield spells. Se is just like dual seeking romantic throat fuck-y stuff that gives us real will power to make our dreams come true- but it's not really all that logical itself. It's more like 'ugh you shy worthless play the victim infp, just fucking do it already. You got this.' Which isn't logical really... for us, it's more about a motivation.

    Te is obviously shitty and 2D Si makes us good diplomats and good at showing others how showing kindness or softness can actually be bad-ass- but not logical or realistic much at all still. A IEI being too Si like.. is like being a fraud. Everybody can sense there is more to us there and it's often what happens if an IEI doesn't have enough motivation or is too depressed. As Adam Strange would say, being a SEI works for SEIs; being a SEI does not work for IEI.

    So that only leaves Ti to learn how to do crap that has nothing at all to do with morals or ethics. The part of life that has nothing at all to do with how you think or feel or manipulate somebody or ethics/morals and is just about how you know how to do things & logically understand the world enough to manipulate it and be a part of it. You can't use Te to make an IEI learn even tho in a crude way Te is 'know-how' - you have to rape them with Ti as much as possible.

    With enough Ti help, IEIs can actually appear to be very logically intelligent and smart in a heartless bad-ass worldly way, especially if you don't know them that well- but also depends on how good they are at using their ignoring function to ward off predators from prying into vulnerable heart stuff.

  37. #77
    edgy princess eiemo's Avatar
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    Believe it or not, I have actually considered being an INFp. One of the things that made me think "I'm not an IEI" is how I view Ti. I tend to fumble with Ti; I have a very all-or-nothing approach to Ti. I do love learning new things, but I ultimately care more about factual information, getting things done, and asserting myself. This is much more in line with EIE, since Se is emphasized. I would say that my Ti is very tied to my Se. I study systems of law and politics so that I can eventually make meaningful changes in the future.





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