EIEs/ENFjs your reaction to pointing out practical problems in your idea

[Minde]

When somebody says something about the practical problems of an idea you have, what is your reaction? How do you feel? What do you think?

For example, say after you suggest this great idea somebody says something like, "Well, that won't work too well because of this, this, and this. And have you thought about this? If you do that, then how will that other thing work? Aren't you forgetting about this, this and this?" and so on. Like if they bring up reasons why your idea might not work.

[Expat]

Bump.

I think they get very annoyed at those who do that.

(since no ENFj answered - correct me if I'm wrong).

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I'm not an ENFj (of course ) but as to what expat says, I have observed that reaction. It's a strange one for me to judge. Not wanting to take away from Minde's question, but if anyone could also say what you would expect people to say, or to not say anything? Thanks.

[lefty]

i'd say it'd depend ...i think if someone asks too many questions then you might end up feeling further from an answer because you feel turned off ... however i think you could be describing the mechanics of an infj's fundamental ability to guide. i also see how something like this would represent the infj supervising the inventor...all aspects of creating something are up for rexamination and i guess it benefits the composer maybe by enriching their understanding of life. i dunno. i dont like to be lectured. i'd rather do the lecturing. im open to feed back but too many questions seems like someone is trying to unravel your personal motivation or deter you ... i.e. i think for me it can end up stifiling me.

[Kristiina]

First thought, "Did you even consider the idea and it's benefits? Maybe the positive side is so good that it's worth solving the problems one at a time.". I do hate it when someone puts down an excellant idea because of some minor problems. Usually all of the problems can be easily countered. When they ask if I've considered something, I usually haven't because that wasn't even part of the idea. I dislike it when someone just starts feeding me information about small problems to make me lose faith in my idea. Ad I I hate it when people say we can't do something because it hasn't been done before. They have never seen it working. But one of my goals is to create something new so that makes the idea especially lucrative.

But I like it when someone helps me develop the idea further and gives me ideas of some possible problems. I want to know it when the idea can't even work in theory. I find that much more practical than nitpicking at the "real" problems.

Example:
idea - Maybe there should be a funding program for homeless people so they could buy new clothing and get a job.
ESTj "practical" problem: "It can't be done. Who's gonna give money for that?! Do you have any idea how many homeless people there are? And how will the homeless people prove that they're homeless..."
Reply to ESTj: "It doesn't matter! It can be figured out later. Is that really the reason why no one has tried it? Aren't you even considering the idea itself?!"
ISTj "theoretical" problem: "Assuming you someone does that... most homeless people will just buy alcohol and waste that money. Some homeless people will get a job, but some simply poor people will try less hard to avoid being homeless if there's money involved. Overall the amount of homeless people will stay the same or even increase."
Reply to ISTj, "oh that's why they don't do that. aha."

[UDP]

Hmm.... ESTjs are weird in that way.

They shoot down ideas they are really unsure about, but if they really see value, they will work it out more.

That's a fair response.

[XoX]

Hmm.... ESTjs are weird in that way.

They shoot down ideas they are really unsure about, but if they really see value, they will work it out more.

I guess that's where comes to play. As in finding a way to show them the value. When they accept there is value in doing something they will mobilize quickly.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Example:
idea - Maybe there should be a funding program for homeless people so they could buy new clothing and get a job.

Sorry to play devils advocate

How would you respond to;

Yeah its a good idea, but they're still homeless..where are they gonna keep their new clothes, and in saying that..there are already charities who give out second hand clothes, you might be suprised at the quality of the stuff that some people throw away. Besides how will they get cleared for tax purposes, get taken on by a company or a recruitment agency without an address to supply? Maybe we should look at getting a roof over their heads first.

[XoX]

Sorry to play devils advocate

How would you respond to;

Yeah its a good idea, but they're still homeless..where are they gonna keep their new clothes, and in saying that..there are already charities who give out second hand clothes, you might be suprised at the quality of the stuff that some people throw away. Besides how will they get cleared for tax purposes, get taken on by a company or a recruitment agency without an address to supply? Maybe we should look at getting a roof over their heads first.

Just to mess up with your convo, it makes me think I approach things from the opposite end. As in for me the primary point is to think about the actual idea of helping homeless people. Secondary about gathering necessary resources (e.g. a funding program). Only thirdly about what exactly should we do. What practical steps to take.

The first part of the question is ideological/political to me. A value question. If I choose to promote an ideology where homeless people are actively helped only then I start considering things further. If I figure they should do on their own there is no need to spend more time thinking about the matter.

The second part starts to get more practical but still no details. Just talking about "generic resource gathering" here. Especially money. Do we have the resources needed to bring our "ideology" to reality. How to get enough resources?

The third part is to actually figure out the details and practices that we should apply to best help the homeless. But at this point we are already ideologically on a solid ground and we are sure we have the needed resources. Thus I am very trusting we can work out the practicalities as we go. "Where there's a will (and enough resources) there's a way".

[PotatoSpirit]

I think if you tell them their idea is wrong in itself they can take it, while if you tell them there are other things to consider, without agreeing that the idea would be good, they get pissed.
Or they might get pissed anyways if you poke their HA.

[Kristiina]

Sorry to play devils advocate

How would you respond to;

Yeah its a good idea, but they're still homeless..where are they gonna keep their new clothes, and in saying that..there are already charities who give out second hand clothes, you might be suprised at the quality of the stuff that some people throw away. Besides how will they get cleared for tax purposes, get taken on by a company or a recruitment agency without an address to supply? Maybe we should look at getting a roof over their heads first.

response to that: oh. good point. They already get clean clothes when they want. And now I realize they do have their ways to clean themselves up every now and then... Okay, on second thought, the idea would not work because homeless people are homeless because they don't WANT TO do anything about their situation, not because they CAN'T.

PS! lol. I started analyzing why your criticism wouldn't piss me off and why I'd find it helpful. That's because you did two very important things:
1) told me the idea is good. But then you described how there's no way it would have good results, so I'm not even sure why that had any effect on me, but it did. I think PotatoSpirit has a point then.
2) told me all the problems from *after* we succeed in the idea.

[Kristiina]

Just to mess up with your convo, it makes me think I approach things from the opposite end. As in for me the primary point is to think about the actual idea of helping homeless people. Secondary about gathering necessary resources (e.g. a funding program). Only thirdly about what exactly should we do. What practical steps to take.

The first part of the question is ideological/political to me. A value question. If I choose to promote an ideology where homeless people are actively helped only then I start considering things further. If I figure they should do on their own there is no need to spend more time thinking about the matter.

The second part starts to get more practical but still no details. Just talking about "generic resource gathering" here. Especially money. Do we have the resources needed to bring our "ideology" to reality. How to get enough resources?

The third part is to actually figure out the details and practices that we should apply to best help the homeless. But at this point we are already ideologically on a solid ground and we are sure we have the needed resources. Thus I am very trusting we can work out the practicalities as we go. "Where there's a will (and enough resources) there's a way".

so you'd respond like a type? yeah, you never seemed to me in any way.

PS! PM if you want to comment this.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

response to that: oh. good point. They already get clean clothes when they want. And now I realize they do have their ways to clean themselves up every now and then... Okay, on second thought, the idea would not work because homeless people are homeless because they don't WANT TO do anything about their situation, not because they CAN'T.

PS! lol. I started analyzing why your criticism wouldn't piss me off and why I'd find it helpful. That's because you did two very important things:
1) told me the idea is good. But then you described how there's no way it would have good results, so I'm not even sure why that had any effect on me, but it did. I think PotatoSpirit has a point then.
2) told me all the problems from *after* we succeed in the idea.

Ugh.. maybe my negotiating skills are getting better

To continue theoretical discussion if thats ok? ..

Still..I'm not sure if someones homeless coz they don't want to do anything about it. It's true for some, but I think for others they don't know how not to be..sometimes folk just need a little help?

[Exodus]

First thought, "Did you even consider the idea and it's benefits? Maybe the positive side is so good that it's worth solving the problems one at a time.". I do hate it when someone puts down an excellant idea because of some minor problems. Usually all of the problems can be easily countered. When they ask if I've considered something, I usually haven't because that wasn't even part of the idea. I dislike it when someone just starts feeding me information about small problems to make me lose faith in my idea. Ad I I hate it when people say we can't do something because it hasn't been done before. They have never seen it working. But one of my goals is to create something new so that makes the idea especially lucrative.

But I like it when someone helps me develop the idea further and gives me ideas of some possible problems. I want to know it when the idea can't even work in theory. I find that much more practical than nitpicking at the "real" problems.

Example:
idea - Maybe there should be a funding program for homeless people so they could buy new clothing and get a job.
ESTj "practical" problem: "It can't be done. Who's gonna give money for that?! Do you have any idea how many homeless people there are? And how will the homeless people prove that they're homeless..."
Reply to ESTj: "It doesn't matter! It can be figured out later. Is that really the reason why no one has tried it? Aren't you even considering the idea itself?!"
ISTj "theoretical" problem: "Assuming you someone does that... most homeless people will just buy alcohol and waste that money. Some homeless people will get a job, but some simply poor people will try less hard to avoid being homeless if there's money involved. Overall the amount of homeless people will stay the same or even increase."
Reply to ISTj, "oh that's why they don't do that. aha."

+1

This is a great description. (edit: It even has Negativist-Questioner vs. Positivist-Declarer.)

[Minde]

Yes, Kristiina, that was excellent.

The question came up because I've been observing an ENFj for a little and noticing how she approaches things and reacts to people (and so far things are making wonderful socionical sense).

She takes comments about the details of how her plan is flawed as "negativity" - "We don't want any negativity." And she sees an (I think) ESTj who works for her as tending to be "negative" for those reasons, because she notices the little problems in plans.

A typical anecdote is when the ENFj decides to have a contest as an incentive for volunteers for an event. She announces her great idea (which is a decent idea in principle) to the volunteers, but completely goes past her office staff who usually take care of all the details of making the ideas work, not informing them ahead of time of what she's planned. The result is a logistic mess, which likely would have been avoided had she consulted with all those pesky nitpickers. I'm guessing from her perspective, though, the detail people would have held her back and totally deflated her enthusiasm (and thus the volunteers' enthusiasm) for the endeavor.

I really like your "what to do instead" bit, Kristiina. It gives me some good ideas on how to positively approach the ENFj. After all, it's her drive and vision that's brought her and her group this far - I don't want to squash that at all.

[Kristiina]

Ugh.. maybe my negotiating skills are getting better

To continue theoretical discussion if thats ok? ..

Still..I'm not sure if someones homeless coz they don't want to do anything about it. It's true for some, but I think for others they don't know how not to be..sometimes folk just need a little help?

But... but... we just came to the conclusion that they already get help. Now they need willpower and determination.
But but... I was initially proposing an idea to help them and you didn't approve (for good reason). But that gave me a new idea just now. Maybe they need some psychological help to give them the initial push so they can improve their lives. So maybe there should be funding to get free psychologists visits in the homeless people's shelters... And the psychologists there should be able to convince the homeless people to rejoin society? naaah. that won't work either. *loss of motivation to help homeless people*.

[Kristiina]

Yes, Kristiina, that was excellent.

The question came up because I've been observing an ENFj for a little and noticing how she approaches things and reacts to people (and so far things are making wonderful socionical sense).

She takes comments about the details of how her plan is flawed as "negativity" - "We don't want any negativity." And she sees an (I think) ESTj who works for her as tending to be "negative" for those reasons, because she notices the little problems in plans.

A typical anecdote is when the ENFj decides to have a contest as an incentive for volunteers for an event. She announces her great idea (which is a decent idea in principle) to the volunteers, but completely goes past her office staff who usually take care of all the details of making the ideas work, not informing them ahead of time of what she's planned. The result is a logistic mess, which likely would have been avoided had she consulted with all those pesky nitpickers. I'm guessing from her perspective, though, the detail people would have held her back and totally deflated her enthusiasm (and thus the volunteers' enthusiasm) for the endeavor.

I really like your "what to do instead" bit, Kristiina. It gives me some good ideas on how to positively approach the ENFj. After all, it's her drive and vision that's brought her and her group this far - I don't want to squash that at all.

thanks. I love helping people understand ENFjs.

One more detail. When an ENFj proposes an idea, try to avoid proposing an equal but alternative idea. Ne people sometimes do that.
me, "lets do A"
ENTp, "we could. But we could do B."
me, "yeah ... but... what's wrong with A?"
ENTp, "nothing. But we should consider B... or maybe C="
me, "*pout* I still can't see what's wrong with A..."
And then I hopelessly try to convince the person to agree that A has many benefits and that we can overcome all the problems. And again, if A is flawed, it will save me a lot of trouble if he tells me right away so I can start developing B.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

But... but... we just came to the conclusion that they already get help. Now they need willpower and determination.

Um..we came to the conclusion that buying clothes isn't the most efficient use of resources. I don't remember coming to the conclusion that they already get help. Sure the opportunity for help may be there, but if say I was homeless, it's all together possible I wouldn't know where to get that help. And I certainly wouldn't have any idea how to get somewhere to stay (or I probably wouldn't be homeless )

But but... I was initially proposing an idea to help them and you didn't approve (for good reason). But that gave me a new idea just now. Maybe they need some psychological help to give them the initial push so they can improve their lives. So maybe there should be funding to get free psychologists visits in the homeless people's shelters... And the psychologists there should be able to convince the homeless people to rejoin society? naaah. that won't work either. *loss of motivation to help homeless people*.

I think in principle it would be a good thing to help them.

Who says they don't wan't to rejoin society?..maybe sometimes people just don't know how to.

Mm.. No need to give up so easily.

Disclaimer: I hope I don't seem like I'm dragging this out, I just think maybe this sort of convo for a wee while could help understand different thinking patterns IRL

[Elro]

Maybe they need some psychological help to give them the initial push so they can improve their lives. So maybe there should be funding to get free psychologists visits in the homeless people's shelters...

Better yet, let's get a bunch of psychologists to go homeless with the homeless people and find out how it REALLY works and then use their training to talk the homeless people into coming back. Although then we might need to give the psychologists counseling after such a traumatic experience.

[Minde]

*loss of motivation to help homeless people*.

Ah, that's the key, isn't it?

thanks. I love helping people understand ENFjs.

One more detail. When an ENFj proposes an idea, try to avoid proposing an equal but alternative idea. Ne people sometimes do that.
me, "lets do A"
ENTp, "we could. But we could do B."
me, "yeah ... but... what's wrong with A?"
ENTp, "nothing. But we should consider B... or maybe C="
me, "*pout* I still can't see what's wrong with A..."
And then I hopelessly try to convince the person to agree that A has many benefits and that we can overcome all the problems. And again, if A is flawed, it will save me a lot of trouble if he tells me right away so I can start developing B.

I will try to keep that in mind. Thank you.

[Kristiina]

lol, yeah, could work. Almost like secret police assignment, but different.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Better yet, let's get a bunch of psychologists to go homeless with the homeless people and find out how it REALLY works and then use their training to talk the homeless people into coming back. Although then we might need to give the psychologists counseling after such a traumatic experience.

Apparently there only homeless because they're lazy and they lack motivation. I mean, why bother having somewhere to sleep at night? I can't be bothered, i'll just hang out in with these cardboard boxes. The idea that people could be homeless because they've been thrown out there parents homes and they've nowhere else to go doesn't occur to her. Oh yeah..they just need to get off their backsides.

[Kristiina]

Apparently there only homeless because they're lazy and they lack motivation. I mean, why bother having somewhere to sleep at night? I can't be bothered, i'll just hang out in with these cardboard boxes. The idea that people could be homeless because they've been thrown out there parents homes and they've nowhere else to go doesn't occur to her. Oh yeah..they just need to get off their backsides.

not motivated to help em anymore. And you said they already get clean clothes if they want, so what else is there. It's not like I'd find a place for them to stay. Who's gonna pay the heating?! And we all know that if there's no heating, they'll just burn the house down.

The difference in world views, that you've been looking for, is this: There are always ways to change your life. The entire world can be controlled and manipulated by anyone in it. If someone doesn't like the situation they're in, they can always do something about it. Fat people can always go on a diet, unemployed people can always get a job (even if it is a minimum wage job), etc. There are very few things we can't control. This is gonna sound totally Si PoLR, but the main thing we have no control over is our health. We can't avoid being ill, we can't cure cancer or bad knees or other things like that. As long as those homeless people are not mentally/physically ill, they can get a grip and change their lives.

A person having no choice has caused it himself. I can see ex-cons having a hard time finding a job. But they were the ones doing the crime in their youth. A woman with an aggressive husband who has no where else to go has probably missed plenty of chances to leave the husband after the first/second beating (when the husband was less aggressive). And a homeless person only has no choices if he's also a hopeless alcoholic (illness). Other than that, he really only needs some initial motivation so he can get off his backside.

[Exodus]

The difference in world views, that you've been looking for, is this: There are always ways to change your life. The entire world can be controlled and manipulated by anyone in it. If someone doesn't like the situation they're in, they can always do something about it. Fat people can always go on a diet, unemployed people can always get a job (even if it is a minimum wage job), etc. There are very few things we can't control.

...

A person having no choice has caused it himself. I can see ex-cons having a hard time finding a job. But they were the ones doing the crime in their youth. A woman with an aggressive husband who has no where else to go has probably missed plenty of chances to leave the husband after the first/second beating (when the husband was less aggressive). And a homeless person only has no choices if he's also a hopeless alcoholic (illness). Other than that, he really only needs some initial motivation so he can get off his backside.

This is Se quadra bullshit. You honestly believe people deserve to be punished by society at large for mistakes they made decades ago, after they have already served their criminal sentence?

[Rubicon]

This is Se quadra bullshit. You honestly believe people deserve to be punished by society at large for mistakes they made decades ago, after they have already served their criminal sentence?

+ 1
minus bullshit part

[Kristiina]

This is Se quadra bullshit. You honestly believe people deserve to be punished by society at large for mistakes they made decades ago, after they have already served their criminal sentence?

I honestly hate automatically blaming myself for mistakes I've made a decade ago. I know alphas have it easy. I'm not at all surpised that ENFjs are associated with depression and personality disorders in so many threads and topics. And I don't think it's entirely fair for ex-cons not to find jobs later in life but life isn't fair. Every mistake has consequences and people must deal with that. Small mistake can have impact for a lifetime. Actions that take seconds can change fates for generations.

I try to avoid such mistakes. This is what ENFjs do - we make a difference in many small things and end up changing our life courses. I serioualy honestly do believe that people control the direction of their lives, whether they know it or not.

[FDG]

This is Se quadra bullshit. You honestly believe people deserve to be punished by society at large for mistakes they made decades ago, after they have already served their criminal sentence?

Hey, I am definitely Se quadra, but I don't give a shit about that. For me, people shouldn't generally even be punished. Maybe the very dangerous ones should just be thrown in an empty valley of Russia or something and be left living there.

Every mistake has consequences and people must deal with that.

? People should deal with physical consequences of the actions; by this I mean the consequences that abide to the law of physics and where consciousness does not play a part. When human judgement is a variable, then it's up to the sum of individual behaviors to decide what the (social) consequences are. This discussion is an example of how my opinion is different from yours which is different from hotelambush's, which makes what I quoted false.

Fat people can always go on a diet, unemployed people can always get a job (even if it is a minimum wage job), etc. There are very few things we can't control.

This is obviously false, there are many metabolic disorders that make people fat even if they have absolutely no fault; there are places where unemployment is so diffuse that getting a job is impossible. I don't understand how you can make such final statements using so little and wrong information.

[Rubicon]

I honestly hate automatically blaming myself for mistakes I've made a decade ago. I know alphas have it easy. I'm not at all surpised that ENFjs are associated with depression and personality disorders in so many threads and topics. And I don't think it's entirely fair for ex-cons not to find jobs later in life but life isn't fair. Every mistake has consequences and people must deal with that. Small mistake can have impact for a lifetime. Actions that take seconds can change fates for generations.

I try to avoid such mistakes. This is what ENFjs do - we make a difference in many small things and end up changing our life courses. I serioualy honestly do believe that people control the direction of their lives, whether they know it or not.

I think making mistakes is a great way of learning. For me, it's the best way to learn. I prefer practical to theory. Not that I'm advocating 'not looking before you leap', but I think that being worried about and focused on not making mistakes is a surefire way of making them. You get all paranoid and nervous about possible failure and end up just staying in one spot, too scared to move. You've got to take a few risks in order to get ahead IMO. Makes you a stronger person.

[Kristiina]

I think making mistakes is a great way of learning. For me, it's the best way to learn. I prefer practical to theory. Not that I'm advocating 'not looking before you leap', but I think that being worried about and focused on not making mistakes is a surefire way of making them. You get all paranoid and nervous about possible failure and end up just staying in one spot, too scared to move. You've got to take a few risks in order to get ahead IMO. Makes you a stronger person.

good philosophy.

[Rubicon]

good philosophy.

cheers

[FDG]

Ah, I forgot Kristiina has me on ignore list because she doesn't want her wrong beliefs to be challenged.

[UDP]

Ah, I forgot Kristiina has me on ignore list because she doesn't want her wrong beliefs to be challenged.

If that's true she'll see you now lol

[Kristiina]

If that's true she'll see you now lol

I just never find FDG's posts useful for developing my world views. There's always something wrong with them and I find them impossible to agree with.

[UDP]

I just never find FDG's posts useful for developing my world views. There's always something wrong with them and I find them impossible to agree with.

Are you implying he has weak ?

[lastdance]

I say 'propose something better'. If it is better than cool. If not, then I'm a little bit irritated and i kill with my glance.

[ScarlettLux]

FWIW, I just read through this thread on the basis of seeing Kriistina complain about FDG's posts. I must say, I agree with her. I have always viewed FDG as a threat, somewhat. I know it's a bit odd, but I am intimidated by him, and usually his posts are stuff that confuse me logically, make me feel dumb, or just something disagreeable to my own views.

I dunno what exactly it is, it could definitely be the focus on over .

As for the thread itself - that was a good example of how EIEs work. If I am EIE, then it does explain some things. I too, hate it when people shoot me down with all these nitpicky (imo) problems about some grand vision/idea I've just spouted out. I know it is probably impractical in my own head, but I'd like a set reaction to it first, rather than immediately finding every flaw with it as if it is something I seriously consider acting on right at that minute.

For me, I guess my ideas are more of a long-range plan thing. I look for someone to bolster them up with emotional positivity or something, to know I am on the right track, and then we can figure out details later on. This happens with my LSI friends all the time. I don't think they've ever gone straight into why something or other won't work - if they think an idea is stupid, they'll start laughing and tell me straight out it's ludicrous in a joking manner, rather than be condescending as that LSE in Kriistina's example seemed to be.

Also, I agree with not avoiding the suggestion of equal alternatives. That's really annoying for an EIE who has as their creative function. It's like we've/they've already chosen their set course after some pondering, and will not want to deviate from it, just act on it through because it's already been chosen! If you use on EIEs, it will just infuriate them and cause them to wonder why you are not seeing "the big picture" or "the right way to do things."