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Thread: Lao Tzu (the Taoism guy)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Yes. It is extremely clear that it is IP. You can use it as a test to see if you understand the IP temperament correctly.
    But Salawa's listing of why this is an IP philosophy reflects more closely an IJ temperament.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    Beta, especially ISTjs.
    I remember a discussion with Expat, liveandletlive, and I, and we thought that it was both a Beta & Delta thing, albeit for difference reasons.
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    From reading that, I could almost see a stronger case for EP in general.
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    My understanding of Taoism strikes me very much as if it's IP... Don't fight the inevitable, don't make things overly complicated, the simple life is best, etc. This is based on reading the Tao Te Ching and the Tao of Pooh. Edit: I can't vouch for the Chang Tzu stuff - it's possible the religion is conveyed differently in different texts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    On hindsight, I think you are right.
    Why? What have made you change your mind? Why do you now think that Pirsig is not an ISTp? The arguments here are more interesting than our opinions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    5. Fact: Taoism is a materialist monist tradition, existance is considered merely the transformation of material things. This is explicitly stated in the Chuang Tzu.
    Correct. This is an important point and one of the main reasons why Taoism is more related to Cynicism than to Stoicism. It is illustrates why Taoism is similar in spirit to the early materialists in Western philosophy, for example Democritus. It also gives us a key to understanding it in a Socionics perspective, because the whole empiricist tradition in Western philosophy can be traced back to the materialists. The empiricist tradition is , in contrast to the tradition I have been talking about before (Leibniz, Kant, etc.).

    More can be said about this, but it all suggests that captures the essence of early Taoist philosophy better than other possible "typings".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    But Salawa's listing of why this is an IP philosophy reflects more closely an IJ temperament.
    Actually no. Let's compare them:

    Salawa (correctly) listed these Taoist themes:
    • Conserving energy
    • Acting only when necessary, knowing when to act
    • Wu Wei -- acting without expending energy unnecessarily (roughly!)
    • Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe (this implies an assumption that the universe is Dynamic, else a reactive stance isn't really necessary)
    You responded by listing typical IJ characteristics:
    • calm, balanced and inert
    • "unflappable"
    • rigid but not very fast gait
    • may appear passive-aggressive
    • usually very stable mood
    • more reactive than active
    • little inclination to fidget during long periods of inactivity
    The IP and the IJ temperaments are similar in many respects, but the bolded part in Salawa's list is inconsistent with the IJ temperament, and the bolded parts in your IJ list are inconsistent with the IP temperament.

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    How is the "Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe" in Salawa's list inconsistent with the IJ's "more reactive than active" point?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    How is the "Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe" in Salawa's list inconsistent with the IJ's "more reactive than active" point?
    Because even though IJs in general may be slightly more reactive than proactive, IJs don't take a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe. Unlike IPs, IJs are not passive observers in the way the dominants are described in Socionics. (A good example is Dmitri Lytov's introduction to Socionics.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    My understanding of Taoism strikes me very much as if it's IP... Don't fight the inevitable, don't make things overly complicated, the simple life is best, etc. This is based on reading the Tao Te Ching and the Tao of Pooh. Edit: I can't vouch for the Chang Tzu stuff - it's possible the religion is conveyed differently in different texts.
    From what hkkmr is saying though, there seems to be a huge misconception of Taoism, so IP may not be the most accurate representation of the philosophy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Correct. This is an important point and one of the main reasons why Taoism is more related to Cynicism than to Stoicism. It is illustrates why Taoism is similar in spirit to the early materialists in Western philosophy, for example Democritus. It also gives us a key to understanding it in a Socionics perspective, because the whole empiricist tradition in Western philosophy can be traced back to the materialists. The empiricist tradition is , in contrast to the tradition I have been talking about before (Leibniz, Kant, etc.).

    More can be said about this, but it all suggests that captures the essence of early Taoist philosophy better than other possible "typings".
    Spinoza (a card-carrying member of the Rationalist tradition) has more in common with Taoism and the Pre-Socratic thinkers than the Empiricists.

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Because even though IJs in general may be slightly more reactive than proactive, IJs don't take a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe. Unlike IPs, IJs are not passive observers in the way the dominants are described in Socionics. (A good example is Dmitri Lytov's introduction to Socionics.)
    In which case, Salawa's points here go better with the IJ temperament as they indicate a leading rational element:
    • Acting only when necessary, knowing when to act
    • Wu Wei -- acting without expending energy unnecessarily (roughly!)
    When compared with the IP list of traits, we can see that action or foreknowledge of action or acting to conserve energy is not really conveyed anywhere in the list:
    • relaxed
    • go-with-the-flow
    • finds it easy to spend long periods of time in no activity, or at very low levels of energy
    • movements are flexible, unhurried
    • little inclination towards fidgetiness when having to remain inactive for longer periods
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    But how well would the EP temperament in general match up with Taoist principles and goals?
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    When I have more time later, I will look at Chaung Zi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Spinoza (a card-carrying member of the Rationalist tradition) has more in common with Taoism and the Pre-Socratic thinkers than the Empiricists.
    In what way? And do you have an example of what you have in mind?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    In which case, Salawa's points here go better with the IJ temperament as they indicate a leading rational element:
    • Acting only when necessary, knowing when to act
    • Wu Wei -- acting without expending energy unnecessarily (roughly!)
    It is a typical, defining characteristic of leading types that they know when to act. The same thing cannot be said bout IJs. If you haven't read Lytov's introduction, now is certainly the time to do it. And it is true of both IPs and IJs that they act only when necessary, and that they don't want to expend energy unnecessarily. So, it's only fully consistent with the IP temperament.

    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    In a way Taoism is a criticism of rationality, but that would be using distinctions I'm not willing to make with certainty.
    That's true and another argument against the thesis that Taoism is correlated with rationality in Socionics. And we don't need to debate whether the described themes are really Taoist or not. The point is that they are clearly more IP than IJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    In what way? And do you have an example of what you have in mind?
    The metaphysical system in place. That's all I am going to say about it at this time.
    It is a typical, defining characteristic of leading types that they know when to act. The same thing cannot be said bout IJs. If you haven't read Lytov's introduction, now is certainly the time to do it. And it is true of both IPs and IJs that they act only when necessary, and that they don't want to expend energy unnecessarily. So, it's only fully consistent with the IP temperament.
    Read hkkmr's refutation of this from the Taoist perspective.

    That's true and another argument against the thesis that Taoism is correlated with rationality in Socionics. And we don't need to debate whether the described themes are really Taoist or not. The point is that they are clearly more IP than IJ.
    And my point is that Salawa's list was bogus as it was more indicative of IJ and not Taoist in general.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Read hkkmr's refutation of this from the Taoist perspective.
    I have. Did you read my comment on that in my last post? And do you notice that what hkkmr says strengthens my position and almost falisifies your IJ thesis once and for all? IJ temperament is more about conserving energy than the IP temperament, even it, to some extent, can be said of both of them. There is no good argument for the claim that Taoism is IJ. Only the IP temperament is consistent with Taoism.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    And my point is that Salawa's list was bogus as it was more indicative of IJ and not Taoist in general.
    I thought I had proven to you that you are wrong about that. Check the references. It is obvious from the Socionics literature that Salawa's list is not indicative of IJ but of IP. Read the Socionics material, for God's sake. You have an incorrect understanding of both the IJ and the IP temperaments.
    Last edited by Phaedrus; 02-09-2008 at 04:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    How is the "Taking a passive, purely reactive stance in relation to the universe" in Salawa's list inconsistent with the IJ's "more reactive than active" point?
    My understanding is: IJs are uncomfortable with change - they dislike it and want to avoid it for the most part. Taoism is at least in part about welcoming change, going along with it without resistance (but not actively changing things from what I've read - that's what's incompatible with EP).

    I still think Taoism resembles IP, but it could be adapted to fit other similar temperaments with slightly different interpretations.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    I have. Did you read my comment on that in my last post? And do you notice that what hkkmr says strengthens my position and almost falisifies your IJ thesis once and for all? IJ temperament is more about conserving energy than the IP temperament, even it, to some extent, can be said of both of them. There is no good argument for the claim that Taoism is IJ. Only the IP temperament is consistent with Taoism.
    Except: I NEVER HAD A IJ THESIS FOR TAOISM!

    I thought I had proved to you that you are wrong about that. Check the references. It is obvious from the Socionics literature that Salawa's list is not indicative of IJ but of IP. Read the Socionics material, for God's sake. You have an incorrect understanding of both the IJ and the IP temperaments.
    Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elro View Post
    My understanding is: IJs are uncomfortable with change - they dislike it and want to avoid it for the most part. Taoism is at least in part about welcoming change, going along with it without resistance (but not actively changing things from what I've read - that's what's incompatible with EP).

    I still think Taoism resembles IP, but it could be adapted to fit other similar temperaments with slightly different interpretations.
    Not as much from what hkkmr was saying though despite the SEI and IEI being in his "integral Taoist quadra."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Except: I NEVER HAD A IJ THESIS FOR TAOISM!
    Right. We are discussing whether Salawa's list is IJ or IP. And the fact is that it is IP.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Not really.
    So you refuse to read the Socionics material? Why should we take you seriously then?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Why? What have made you change your mind? Why do you now think that Pirsig is not an ISTp? The arguments here are more interesting than our opinions.
    Pirsig's ideas sort of reminded me of Paulo Coelho's. Moreover, he VIs like him. Pirsig definitely has a Te ego, and after reading the wikiquote entry about him, I believe that he is Ni>Si:

    -You look at where you're going and where you are and it never makes sense, but then you look back at where you've been and a pattern seems to emerge. And if you project forward from that pattern, then sometimes you can come up with something.

    -It took me more than a week to deduce from the evidence around me that everything before my waking up was a dream and everything afterward was reality. There was no basis for distinguishing the two other than the growing pile of new events that seemed to argue against the drunk experience. Little things appeared, like the locked door, the outside of which I could never remember seeing. And a slip of paper from the probate court telling me that some person was committed as insane. Did they mean me?

    -I've noticed that people who have never worked with steel have trouble seeing this... that the motorcycle is primarily a mental phenomenon. They associate metal with given shapes... pipes, rods, girders, tools, parts... all of them fixed and inviolable, and think of it as primarily physical. But a person who does machining or foundry work or forge work or welding sees "steel" as having no shape at all. Steel can be any shape you want if you are skilled enough, and any shape but the one you want if you are not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by eunice View Post
    Pirsig definitely has a Te ego, and after reading the wikiquote entry about him, I believe that he is Ni>Si:
    I think you are right, but how do you know that he has Te ego? What do you see as evidence for that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Right. We are discussing whether Salawa's list is IJ or IP. And the fact is that it is IP.
    It is a fact. Fact, fact, fact...fact.

    So you refuse to read the Socionics material?
    What can I say? I love basting in my own ignorance and stupidity.

    Why should we take you seriously then?
    You shouldn't since I'm a merry type.

    So obtaining a consensus on Lao Tzu is apparently pointless.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    It is a fact. Fact, fact, fact...fact.
    Yes, I claim that it is a fact that Salawa's list describes the IP temperament and only to a lesser extent the IJ temperament. Do you claim that it is a fact that it is not a fact? Or do you simply don't know what to think?

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    What can I say? I love basting in my own ignorance and stupidity.
    So I know what I'm talking about, whereas you don't know what you're talking about. I don't think that's fair. You should also know what you're talking about, and the only way to make that happen is for you to study the Socionics material on temperaments, types, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    You shouldn't since I'm a merry type.
    Okay, you admit that you were wrong, and that's fair enough. But you are confirming my point, and that's more depressing than satisfying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    So obtaining a consensus on Lao Tzu is apparently pointless.
    Maybe. But it is good that we now agree that Taoism is IP, not IJ.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Why not SLI?
    Could be. Actually, Fe PoLR if you read his (supposed) teachings makes much sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    Yes, I claim that it is a fact that Salawa's list describes the IP temperament and only to a lesser extent the IJ temperament. Do you claim that it is a fact that it is not a fact? Or do you simply don't know what to think?
    Could you tell me what to think, please?

    So I know what I'm talking about, whereas you don't know what you're talking about. I don't think that's fair. You should also know what you're talking about, and the only way to make that happen is for you to study the Socionics material on temperaments, types, etc.
    I refuse.

    Okay, you admit that you were wrong, and that's fair enough. But you are confirming my point, and that's more depressing than satisfying.
    And now you are putting words into my mouth.

    Maybe. But it is good that we now agree that Taoism is IP, not IJ.
    I have said nothing of the sort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    One of the reasons why I am curious about this is that the goal of Taoism is essentially to obtain a state of being in relation to the world and whether or not this relates to statics and dynamics..
    Fields > Objects.

    To be flexible and mindful to the ways of the world in order to be in harmony with it is Dynamic.

    This is probably why multiple people will say that Taoism is reflective of an IP temperament.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    SLI. ILI possibly, but seems more Delta.
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    I thought Lao Tzu was one of those few Infinite souls and therefore untypable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    SLI. ILI possibly, but seems more Delta.
    I agree. Taoism in general seems more Delta oriented. Yang Zhu one of the early precursors to Taoism I believe was SLI as well. He was considered a hedonist, early proponent of egoism, and epicurean which fits Delta particularly SLI philosophy. The only surviving material from him is in a book called Yang Zhu's "garden of pleasure"—http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/ycgp/index.htm

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    Quote Originally Posted by vesstheastralsilky View Post
    I thought Lao Tzu was one of those few Infinite souls and therefore untypable.
    Is that from soul types?

    The Infinite Soul is a representative of the tao itself. A reunited cadre or cadres serve to “channel” a specific aspect of the tao (truth, love or energy) through a representative fragment to the Earth, in order to catalyze a spiritual transformation in the totality of sentience.


    The type that can be named is not the eternal type.

    The Tao Te Ching

    Unfortunate that the link has some typos that take away from the flow of it. The Stephen Mitchel translation is the one I like best.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    @Aylen

    The Mitchell translation is good, but it is more of a reinterpretation of Mitchell's own ideas of the Daoist concepts.

    Red Pine has a very poetic, rooted translation which is accurate to some of the source material we have. (it is supposedly very tricky to accurately create a semantic bridge between ancient chinese and modern day languages.)

    I urge you to read it if interest is in you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    @Aylen

    The Mitchell translation is good, but it is more of a reinterpretation of Mitchell's own ideas of the Daoist concepts.

    Red Pine has a very poetic, rooted translation which is accurate to some of the source material we have. (it is supposedly very tricky to accurately create a semantic bridge between ancient chinese and modern day languages.)

    I urge you to read it if interest is in you.

    http://zoraweb.com/lao-tzus-taoteching
    Thanks for the link.

    I own several of these hard copy versions including that one in. Read them all but the Mitchell translation is still the most appealing to me.

    https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_s...=1AABAW0069U2V

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  33. #73
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    This translation is... deep @para


    12
    ::::::::::::::
    Graphics blind the eyes.
    Audio files deafen the ear.
    Mouse clicks numb the fingers.
    Heuristics weaken the mind.
    Options wither the heart.

    The Guru observes the net
    but trusts his inner vision.
    He allows things to come and go.
    His heart is as open as the ether.
    ::::::::::::::
    17
    ::::::::::::::
    When the Guru administers, the users
    are hardly aware that he exists.
    Next best is a sysop who is loved.
    Next, one who is feared.
    And worst, one who is despised.

    If you don't trust the users,
    you make them untrustworthy.

    The Guru doesn't talk, he hacks.
    When his work is done,
    the users say, "Amazing:
    we implemented it, all by ourselves!"
    ::::::::::::::
    19
    ::::::::::::::
    Throw away documentation and manuals,
    and users will be a hundred times happier.
    Throw away privileges and quotas,
    and users will do the Right Thing.
    Throw away proprietary and site licenses,
    and there won't be any pirating.

    If these three aren't enough,
    just stay at your home directory
    and let all processes take their course.
    ::::::::::::::
    75
    ::::::::::::::
    When license fees are too high,
    users do things by hand.
    When the management is too intrusive,
    users lose their spirit.

    Hack for the user's benefit.
    Trust them; leave them alone.

    https://www.netfunny.com/rhf/jokes/92q2/taote.html

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  34. #74
    Impermanence para's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    This translation is... deep @para




    Opening the internet should automatically redirect to this translation every five minutes...
    ''Time is a child playing draughts, the kingly power is a child's.''

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