@Slackermom
I would bet INTj's or Si suggestive hidden agenda's can be though. Perhaps you are right with Fe polr.
@Slackermom
I would bet INTj's or Si suggestive hidden agenda's can be though. Perhaps you are right with Fe polr.
...
Last edited by marooned; 08-04-2008 at 04:33 AM.
Sorry if I didn't really understand, because I'm guessing I kind of didn't, but I think anybody likes 'Si' sensations inside themselves, if you are putting it the way I think you are putting it. I mean sex, hunger, surviving. The rest you wrote flew by me, I'm sorry.Originally Posted by Loki
It depends on the conditions.
Only if the person is emitting a sort of strongthat can overcome the initial tension and cause the
person to then relax or "surrender." If they aren't adept at
Adding on: it's not related to(excluding the LSI idea and thinking about it more as it pertains to me), because it has to do with some fear of germs or something like that... it's because it creates an
(And, no, I haven't had any traumatizing experiences with people touching me inappropriately, if anyone was wondering.)
...
Last edited by marooned; 08-04-2008 at 04:33 AM.
I feel kind of lost here. xD Sorry I truly don't understand what you mean. I think mind can be thought of as a physical apparatus too. Like part of the 5 senses.
I don't know how to explain this. I don't think of the mind in a physical way. I would like to explain it better, if I knew how.
The thoughts in your head, for instance, your imagination, the things you see in your mind, these are not sensory.
^Perhaps then I have ventured outside the realm of what pertains here.
I guess the difference in opinion of his type starts here. I see the mind as physical, and indicative of a lot more than what we see of what is going on in our environment.
Yes my thoughts exactly.
What we see going on in our environment is also sensory (if that was meant literally).
The idea of it, what we think about it, what we imagine, images within our minds, are not sensory.
I mean like electromagnetism and it hitting the mind and such, like mind control.
Um?
>_> Shit. It's supposed to be secret. Can't talk about it here. <_<
he is guy #2 that I described in that thread... and the way I described him probably did sound INxj, but this thread alone has revealed some things I did not really know about him, so my description shouldn't be taken too seriously.Are you guy #2...
But knowing him, the thing I feel most strongly is that he values
But maybe it just shows how inaccurate my understanding of the functions are.
You're not the only one. For a minute there I was sure I'd finally worked it out. Looking over this forum, the filatova and the wikisocion descriptions I can't choose between LII and IEI. Isn't that a weird combination? Maybe I'm an LII with IEI tendenciesPersonally, this has all circled me back to a state of slight confusion.or vice-versa. A couple of points in LII's favour though:
- I'm sure I am at least Ti and Si valuing
- The dichotomies matches LII almost completely (9/10). Even if you think the dichotomies is bs, it is at least suggestive
- My gf is an ESE
The problem which probably makes me think IEI is that I seem to have a strong Ni focus too, although someone I believe was arguing that this could be indicative of N in general? (The one dichotomy that didn't match, in fact, was that I am declaring)
LII
tell us why. what kinds of experiences suggest this to you?
umm... 99.9% of your description also matches with the sagittarius description. am i right in guessing that you're a sagittarius? this suggests that you are LIE.- The dichotomies matches LII almost completely (9/10). Even if you think the dichotomies is bs, it is at least suggestive
Firstly, niffweed, how do you explain this?
I'll tell you somethings I see about him, and you tell me what it shows:
- He thinks he is a gourmet food critic - for example, he can go on about not just that he likes cheese (you like cheese too niffweed?), but about all the different types of cheese he likes. Though I also see that he has a hard time putting into words his feelings about why he likes things.
- He doesn't understand why people would work more that they have to (and when I say 'work' I'm referring to the meaningless jobs that most students do, and some people end up doing for the rest of their lives, not like work that you are actually passionate about). He also doesn't understand why people would spend money on nice cars or big houses or big TVs rather than on good food.
- His dress sense seems to reflect comfort above everything else (though he did get a bit paranoid when I told him he buys clothes that are too large). Dress is very conservative - very casual, but not standing out.
- He'd rather do things in his own time than when someone else tells him he has to.
- He says he really likes staying at home doing nothing (relaxing?). I feel the same way sometimes, but I seem to overcome this feeling (for example to see friends) more than he does.
finally, he identifies more with the 'static' descriptions than the 'dynamic' descriptions
I think hellothere explains my Si valuing better than I could, it's more just something I feel from the descriptions I've read of the Si function. I might add here, though, that it's not just good food they should be spending their money on. Nice overseas trips are just the ticket too I think
LII
Ok good point. Ignore the dichotomies then.
LII
This is one of the reasons why I consider myself strongly Ti valuing. Alot of your rebuttals to Ezra's arguments make sense, but I honestly cannot fathom how you dismiss the above as not Ti valuing.
I am capable of and sometimes quite enjoy connecting a wide range of sources together into an argument when doing essays. I would have also thought doing physics and maths as a major would require a good dose of
Last edited by akeaneau; 01-25-2008 at 10:00 AM.
LII
note though: Ti is IEI's hidden agenda, so it is valued for them too.
Ahh, interesting. I guess this might be a moot point then. Interesting actually, according to the filatova description, IEI's can make good mathematicians, which sounds abit weird to me
LII
I thought it might be helpful to go through some of the filatova descriptions for LII and IEI and highlight what I agree/disagree and hopefully get an idea which one fits me better from that. So in the next posts:
Green=agree
Red=disagree
Black=not sure/depends/haven't been in that situation
LII
IEI
Descriptions of the strong functions:
Introverted Intuition: Primary Function
Ni – Introverted intuition, in the IEI, dictates that his consciousness is submerged in modeling time-related processes. He sails and flows, going both forward and backwards in time. His consciousness, in contrast to the ILI, is focused on ethics. He therefore focuses less on problems concerning the material world and production, preferring instead the development, in time, of human emotions and relations between people.
Internally he observes that everything is in constant motion: the children run, the adults work, behaviors display patterns, rivers flow, the heavenly bodies move in the sky… time has an identifiable essence about it. A dreamer and romantic, the IEI is easily separated from reality and taken away, by his thoughts, into the vastness of his dreams where he scoops up happiness and ponders the meaning of his existence. He’s often drawn towards novels containing fantasy and adventure. In these he participates with imaginary heroes in their adventures. The IEI loves to give himself up, for long periods, to dreaming. His dreams, as a rule, focus on beautiful and elegant things: i.e. a round-the-world journey aboard a lavish ocean liner alongside a refined public, the luxurious cottage with a fireplace and white piano, the excellent love…
However, the IEI also knows how to sense the ripening of events, to catch the barely noticeable fluidity and dynamics of moods within society. He precisely senses the moment, in time, in which he must act; he especially senses the approximation of crisis situations and danger, at which time he will appear visibly disturbed.
He quite successfully catches on to other people’s characteristics, abilities and potentials. Thus he is sometimes drawn to people with the purpose of using them. In respect to his own abilities and talents there is an internal, frequently secret, conviction that he exceeds others in his spiritual aristocratism, considering himself as a member of an elite. However, as a rule he tries not to demonstrate this conviction.
Introverted intuition, as the primary function, impedes others from observing the IEI. It is difficult to analyze his behavior and he is inclined to justify himself in everything. His tendency to ignore reality, and his difficulty in self-appraisal, may lead him to egocentrism and an excessive indulgence in his own imagined world.
[edit] Extroverted Ethics: Creative Function
Fe – After having interpreted the dynamics of a situation the IEI attempts, emotionally, to influence the surrounding people and to push them towards appropriate activities. He knows how to manipulate people through moods, to incite the necessary reaction and feeling; he does not accomplish this through force but with persuasion; frequently through an emotional surge that signals to others that he will perish as a brittle, delicate entity if help does not arrive and his requests are not fulfilled! He finds that activities relating to business bring hardship upon him; therefore he tries to dispose of such work to people nearby. The IEI is easily inspired by a favorable climate, but is also very easy to offend: a sufficient negative intonation is all it takes to throw him into a state of despondency for the whole day.
He is confident of his correctness and if those that surround him fail to follow through with the necessary activities his indignation and emotionalism can reach such a degree that, for a long period, he cannot be quieted, as he continues, with fervor, to prove his position to all.
He loves to be the center of attention when in the company of familiar people. He knows how to direct himself towards others – to smile at someone, to support another’s remark, to be civil and conformal.
The IEI frequently suffers from bouts of melancholy and disappointment, followed by periods of isolation. When such periods come to a close he will once again emerge bright and alert, with positive expectations directed towards the changes in his life. When he finds himself in a loving and understanding atmosphere his best qualities are revealed: the ability to melt tension and lend morale support. He understands the moods of those that he cares about and attempts to improve them; is ready to provide warmth and sympathy.
Possessing high emotionalism, the IEI sensitively responds to all forms of art. He especially loves music and poetry; he frequently creates his own. He often attends concerts and develops a natural literary gift.(imho
[edit] Descriptions of the weak functions:
[edit] Extroverted Logic: Place of Least Resistance
Te – The IEI is focused within the domain of his dreams and dreams help him to hide from reality, which sometimes proves to be too rough and severe for his tastes.
His activity in business is unpredictable, since his fitness depends exclusively on his mood: short flash-assaults alternate with periods of prolonged inaction. He generally possesses a low energy drive, and therefore finds it difficult to force himself to work. The inherence of asthenia – rapid enervation and low activity – is frequently compensated for by the need for a prolonged night sleep. For this very reason, without the necessary morale support, he frequently finds himself at a lower social position than would correspond with his abilities. Thus the IEI is prone to regard energetic people, whom hold a higher social status, with a secret sense of envy, to consider that life has wronged him and, involuntarily trying to justify himself, he seeks those on whom it is possible to fault for his own failures.Meanwhile he comforts himself in the fact that his high principles, brittleness and refinement of psyche do not permit him to act by the same methods as others. Thus he justifies his passivity by placing himself morally above those that surround him, thereby protecting his psychologically weak areas. He finds it difficult to accept personal responsibility. He prefers to lay responsibility on others, especially if work goes badly. Routine work is rarely assumed in any form and he will try, by all means, to avoid such or to carry it out negligently.
[edit] Introverted Sensing: Role Function
Si – In regards to everything that concerns health and his exterior image the IEI tries not to appear worse than others, to adhere to the same standards that exist in society. Here his innate elegance should be noted, his ability to appear refined, to dress with great taste, even should his financial situation be modest.
The IEI finds it difficult to manage finances; he does not take heed of his balance before purchasing beautiful and elegant things, even if such purchases lack utilitarian properties and his finances do not suffice. It is difficult for him to think about this prose as money, and it is desirable to amuse himself by any means possible.
The IEI is not the leader, but always the slave. Favorable conditions for activity must be, as much as possible, creative. He finds it difficult to manifest initiative, to clash with his environment, thus he often abides by the norms and principles dictated by the society in which he lives.
Last edited by akeaneau; 01-25-2008 at 11:36 AM.
LII
LII
Installation of the consciousness of the leading bloc: The LII’s reality is defined by conformity with laws, which must be discovered. Through this it’s possible to more deeply investigate the essence of phenomena and processes.
Descriptions of the strong functions:
Introverted Thinking: Primary Function
Ti: LII’s ideology is founded upon the idea of the interdependence of phenomena in the surrounding world; everything that occurs is subordinate to laws and structure.
Her thinking takes an analytic nature. She gathers knowledge and, investigating it, analyzes the facts. She understands the essence of a situation by creating a model for this knowledge in her consciousness that corresponds with her experiences. She’s guided by the universal ideas she’s found and comprehended, regardless of others’ opposition. By no means will she be distracted from what she deems the principal purpose in her life and will only forsake something she’s started if convinced, on her own, of its error. Her work frequently becomes the focal point of her existence.
LII loves precision and order in everything; she is scrupulous and meticulous. Finds pleasure in systematizing, organizing everything “on the shelf.” Everything is done according to plan. Considers that the behaviour of people, especially at work, must be subordinate to a logical and definite system. Immediately notes the illogicality and contradictions present in the actions of people and, as much as possible, attempts to introduce corrections: depending on whom she’s dealing with can express criticism or propose assistance. Generally is irritated by chaotic, disorderly, inconsiderate people.
Extroverted Intuition: Creative Function
Ne: In order to build a convincing system, compliant with the laws of logic, LII attempts to penetrate into the essence of objects and events; seeks the underlying reason for the occurrence. Cannot live without a basic set of beliefs; if it is necessary to abandon one (such occurs extremely rarely), she’ll formulate another. In such cases it is very important to be convinced of the validity of the values, which compose her interest: her ideology must have solid internal support.
She’s drawn foreword by intuitively penetrating into universal matters, but as soon as she’s satisfied with understanding one, is drawn to another. What she already wholly understands is very clear and seems uninteresting. She’s only capable of admiring the result she’s obtained for a short time, for soon after is experienced a sensation of triviality for what she’s done.
One of the LII’s most positive qualities lies in the ability to dismantle intricate and complex questions, to focus on the important points, to view the problem “from above” and to clearly present this understanding. If she comprehends the essence of the problem well enough she will not yield to those that oppose her, will always promulgate her position.
A very characteristic feature of the LII is the ability to sense well the course of time. She cannot naturally spend it in vain. She works peacefully, from afar appears to do so leisurely. Her ability to concentrate, to not be distracted by external interference, guarantees her efficiency with work. As a rule the LII is capable of determining when the job is done. Her precision manifests itself in her personal obligations: if LII agreed to be at a meeting but never showed up – it means that something serious befell her.
Descriptions of the weak functions:
Extroverted Sensing: Place of Least Resistance
Se: LII poorly conveys volitional pressure. Though she may find herself in an executive position wherein orders are relayed, she will not execute the commands of superiors, which, in her view, are incorrect.
In reconciling with others LII will state the rules rather than beginning with the injustice at hand, may sometimes express sharpness and ardor, which catches others by surprise.
She finds it difficult to be placed within the strict framework of a hierarchic structure, where everything is previously stipulated and there is no space for creativity.
LII maintains rationality in material expenditures; frequently she’ll stow away a sum of money in the case of an unforeseen situation. Will not spend money in vain – is thrifty.
Her ideal of happiness is in a regulated and proper life, where work and play are separated. Can for a very long time, sometimes an entire lifetime, adhere to the same daily routine. She feels very uncomfortable when circumstances violate her routines, in such cases will focus her resources on retrieving order, since it is in such routines that she finds internal support. Disorder and chaos, whether in her private life or at work, she experiences painfully.
In regards her health LII relates to the objective reality, but she does not entrust herself to her own sensations, instead completely relying on physicians. When she falls ill she strictly adheres to her physician’s instructions, obtaining the prescribed medication, administering the correct doses.
In regards to clothing LII frequently adheres to a “business” style, stressing more so her professional position than any specific features. She does not care for pretentiousness and bright accessories. Is constrained in expressing her sexual attractiveness.
Introverted Ethics: Role Function
Fi: The realm of ethics presents weakness for LII. In this area she adheres to the norms and traditions of society. May develop sufficient care and restraint so as to avoid such situations, in which she’s badly oriented. LII poorly measures the emotional climate, prefers not to interfere in conflicts and – as much as possible – to avoid such situations. Finds it difficult to comfort others. In such cases prefers to render concrete assistance, or, if this is impossible, to simply walk away and not interfere. Does not understand what to do, or what to say, when confronted by another’s tearful emotional outburst.
Tends to associate from a distant psychological distance; does not express familiarity well with others. Thus, as a child and as an adult, she fails to develop and maintain many friendships. In this the weakness of the ethical function manifests itself.
LII follows tradition. Is proper and exercises restraint, does not succumb to deplorable expressions of behaviour, but this is not the essence of her nature – under the mask of restraint is often hidden a strained spiritual life, influenced by intense experiences. However, her reserved nature does not permit her to share her misfortunes with others. For years she may carry an offense, in the depth of her soul, only with difficulty pardoning the offender.
LII develops relations with caution, behaves towards others with restraint and respect. Is noticeably enkindled by intellectual conversation – in this area she feels herself sufficiently well grounded.
LII
i don't put excessive amounts of stock in descriptions like these. i'll refer to the filatova descriptions on the next page, in which there is some better information about exactly why he identifies with these types. and, to be honest, fwiw i think that he in large part picked out of the LII description less conspicuous traits that an intuitive type might be able to identify with more easily.
ok. so?? does liking many different types of cheese mean he values Si?I'll tell you somethings I see about him, and you tell me what it shows:
- He thinks he is a gourmet food critic - for example, he can go on about not just that he likes cheese (you like cheese too niffweed?), but about all the different types of cheese he likes. Though I also see that he has a hard time putting into words his feelings about why he likes things.
the work part sounds sufficiently Ni to me. the "nice cars" thing might be Si, but could also easily be weak Se or otherwise uneventful.- He doesn't understand why people would work more that they have to (and when I say 'work' I'm referring to the meaningless jobs that most students do, and some people end up doing for the rest of their lives, not like work that you are actually passionate about). He also doesn't understand why people would spend money on nice cars or big houses or big TVs rather than on good food.
ok. i don't think this is important for type, especially among intuitives with weak sensory functions.- His dress sense seems to reflect comfort above everything else (though he did get a bit paranoid when I told him he buys clothes that are too large). Dress is very conservative - very casual, but not standing out.
wouldn't anybody?- He'd rather do things in his own time than when someone else tells him he has to.
easily Ni if you ask me. laziness is god.- He says he really likes staying at home doing nothing (relaxing?). I feel the same way sometimes, but I seem to overcome this feeling (for example to see friends) more than he does.
finally, he identifies more with the 'static' descriptions than the 'dynamic' descriptions
so did i. honestly dichotomic descriptions are a huge waste of time.
bottom line is that you've basically listed some random personal peculiarities here. perhaps some of them might be suggestive of something, but overall i don't think you have a case for Si at all.
I would have also thought doing physics and maths as a major would require a good dose of
not really, because non-Ti types can be very proficient at using Ti for specific purposes.
I've find it too difficult to work out my type by 'feeling' that I match one - I have no problem doing this for other people but nothing jumped out for me. So I thought it would make sense to try and quantify how accurate the different descriptions are for me. That was what I was doing before I went on the forums for help. It's probably also cause I'm not very familiar with socionics yet and so find I have to rely on descriptions and other people to some extent. *shrug* this isn't really unusual for me - I do tend to quantify. Any of the tests I did, I was more fixated on the percentages for each category than on the overall result - the type. I've found tests too erratic though, so I guess that's why I'm here.
LII
For all I know this is true, but I am getting the impression that people are cherrypicking to some extent - emphasising what matches their pov whilst quickly dismissing or explaining away what doesn't
LII
I wasn't making a "case", I was just listing some things I've noticed about him to see how you'd interpret them.
How about this, you list some things which might be indicative of Si and let's see if there is any evidence of them in him.
and yes, it just seems people are reluctant to change their inital impressions.
yep.
Have you read any of these things?
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Vocabulary
http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=Romance_styles
http://www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml.
http://www.socionics.com/articles/irra.htm
Maybe some of them could give ideas?
Thanks for the links, Loki, I'll have a look.
hkkmr, I think that's great advice - I've probably got as much out of this discussion as I'm going to get. For now I'll just accept that it's been narrowed down to LII and IEI and hopefully sort out which in my own time.
LII
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