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    Default Another sort of rant

    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:

    I want to better understand the difference between beta Fe and Alpha Fe rather than Alpha Fe is being loud and obnoxious and Beta Fe is just all over pleasing to see. Also, were you saying that ISTj's are partial to Beta Fe or both types overall. I say this because my best friend is that ISTj, and I am 99% sure he likes me because of the Fe I always give him, among more wholesome things such as trustworthiness and respect.
    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
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    Are all people superficial? *sigh*

    Maybe she didn't feel comfortable and was trying to get by?

    I dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are all people superficial? *sigh*

    Maybe she didn't feel comfortable and was trying to get by?

    I dunno.
    See Sig.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are all people superficial? *sigh*

    Maybe she didn't feel comfortable and was trying to get by?

    I dunno.
    no.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    no.
    Well could you provide any clarification as what we are supposed to be answering?
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    no.
    Sorry. Not trying to attack you or be hard on you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Sorry. Not trying to attack you or be hard on you.
    No, I understand. There is a lot of bad socionics going on, and I could very easily be contributing to it here. I'm trying to be clear about something, but I know I am not doing a very good job at the moment. I am distracted by a few things.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
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    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:



    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    So what is the question here? Why does an ISTj value ? Why does an ISTj engage in awkward small talk? I can think of a number of possible answers to what I think you are trying to ask, but I want to be sure first.
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    I'm sorry, my thread is unclear, and my question seems like the typical anti-Fe thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    So what is the question here? Why does an ISTj value ? Why does an ISTj engage in awkward small talk? I can think of a number of possible answers to what I think you are trying to ask, but I want to be sure first.
    Yeah, I guess that is a good place to start.


    One of the issues I had with this person, which was probably an unhealthy person, was that their cheery atmosphere and attempts at "being very nice" were in such contradiction to other things they did, "behind the scenes". This person is very guarded about "her business", and she is actually a person who was involved in domestic violence against her husband. And I don't understand why she expends so much effort on pleasantries and such, and how they mean so much to her, when she treats people, albeit in private, in certain ways. In more malicious ways. And how she expects these things to be totally separate.

    But mostly how you can still value and act pleasant and be nice, when, your true character - who you are when no one else is around, in intimate situations - is very bad.


    Please please please - I am not saying all Fe types are this way. I am not saying Fe types are terrible people, I know this is an unusual case with a person who is unhealthy. But I don't understand some things about it. Maybe I ought not too, really. Maybe I ought to just leave it at "this person is messed up".



    - why this was connected to Fe/istj/beta is that it is all very superficial to me. I don't understand how someone can value that soooooo much - that pleasantries. Put sooooo much effort into it, and think it means so much, in spite of other things that goes on. I don't understand how that can be valued so much more than other things.

    Which takes me back to this quote that someone else said to me today:
    "I say this because my best friend is that ISTj, and I am 99% sure he likes me because of the Fe I always give him, among more wholesome things such as trustworthiness and respect."

    I don't understand how that can be so important to someone.



    again, this is not super clear. I will try to explain it more.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    and please don't think this is about me trying to make myself sound like one type or another.

    I think that I might be this way because I do not value Fe. Other people see her and think she is nice because she is pleasant and stuff. And yeah, she is good at that. No problem. Putting that sort of effort into people is a good thing.

    What bothers me is when it is done in a way that almost tries to "compensate" for other qualities, like your real character. Like it is an act that is trying to cover up something else, misdirection.



    I don't understand why people "try" so much. Hmm.... that is still not so clear.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Well what's your problem with it UDP, relally. It's small talk, it can be pleasurable. The other person has done something bad and you don't like him-her? Fine, don't talk to them, but it's not like criminals aren't happy ever, either.

    IMFD, I've had similar experiences with an ISTj teacher, even a college ISTj teacher was similar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well what's your problem with it UDP, really. It's small talk, it can be pleasurable. The other person has done something bad and you don't like him-her? Fine, don't talk to them, but it's not like criminals aren't happy ever, either.

    IMFD, I've had similar experiences with an ISTj teacher, even a college ISTj teacher was similar.
    My problem is that putting so much effort into PR work when you yourself are being a terrible person to someone else "in private" baffles me. I don't understand how you can rationalize that for yourself.

    Apparently there are people who think I am foolish for not doing the same (as in constantly working my image), so if it is just a matter of differences than so be it.

    Why it bothers me is because it is a theatrical display that has effects of trying to promote a certain "personality" or display certain qualities of character, like kindness, pleasantness, concern for others, etc - and yet these are not really the true values of the person. It seems totally fake. It seems like a put on. To me, that person is lying.


    I can't stand that emotionally drawing voice, so "pleasant" and obviously contrived. So much so that should you not respond in the same way, you are automatically "rude". And then a few seconds later, when no one else is around, that entire demeanor changes, and the cold, calculating, fixated person returns. I don't like difference. The person's personality is entirely dependent on who we are around. Yes, we all act differently somewhat depending on who we are with, but such drastic changes seem unhealthy, and definitely not someone I feel comfortable around.


    Eh, forget it. This is just being a rant about someone in particular.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I'm sorry, my thread is unclear, and my question seems like the typical anti-Fe thing.



    Yeah, I guess that is a good place to start.


    One of the issues I had with this person, which was probably an unhealthy person, was that their cheery atmosphere and attempts at "being very nice" were in such contradiction to other things they did, "behind the scenes". This person is very guarded about "her business", and she is actually a person who was involved in domestic violence against her husband. And I don't understand why she expends so much effort on pleasantries and such, and how they mean so much to her, when she treats people, albeit in private, in certain ways. In more malicious ways. And how she expects these things to be totally separate.

    But mostly how you can still value and act pleasant and be nice, when, your true character - who you are when no one else is around, in intimate situations - is very bad.
    In which case, I am not sure if the question of why an ISTj values is all that adequate of a question if the ISTj in question is unhealthy in mind.

    Which takes me back to this quote that someone else said to me today:
    "I say this because my best friend is that ISTj, and I am 99% sure he likes me because of the Fe I always give him, among more wholesome things such as trustworthiness and respect."

    I don't understand how that can be so important to someone.
    Simple enough. The LSI appreciates someone who can read, maintain, or shape the emotional atmosphere that the LSI craves. So if a Fe type is present, then an LSI does not have to expend energy to subconsciously try to obtain it. LSI (and LII) do and will engage in that awkward small talk as a means of trying to provoke (though not maliciously) a conversation in which they act merely as the listener, which is why that one LSI does not reveal much. They are wanting others to do the talking and those questions are asked as a means to try and maintain that conversation for as long as possible. Someone was commented that Ti is like a blackhole for Fe, and that seems to be quite true in my experiences. Fe-types almost provide a sort of raw and unfiltered data that only Ti types love to process.

    What bothers me is when it is done in a way that almost tries to "compensate" for other qualities, like your real character. Like it is an act that is trying to cover up something else, misdirection.
    I do not think that this relates to , but can be found exerted amongst all information elements amongst all types.
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    sidebar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Simple enough. The LSI appreciates someone who can read, maintain, or shape the emotional atmosphere that the LSI craves. So if a Fe type is present, then an LSI does not have to expend energy to subconsciously try to obtain it. LSI (and LII) do and will engage in that awkward small talk as a means of trying to provoke (though not maliciously) a conversation in which they act merely as the listener, which is why that one LSI does not reveal much. They are wanting others to do the talking and those questions are asked as a means to try and maintain that conversation for as long as possible. Someone was commented that Ti is like a blackhole for Fe, and that seems to be quite true in my experiences. Fe-types almost provide a sort of raw and unfiltered data that only Ti types love to process.
    What is that like for gamma and delta; how does an Fi type try to draw Te out of people, or, a Te type try to draw Fi?
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:



    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    Are you saying this behavior is... bad?

    From what you describe it's similar to something I'd do if I felt somewhat of a social obligation (not necessarily in a bad sense, though) but didn't feel much like being open myself, for whatever reason. Perhaps not as outgoing, but same sort of behavior. But perhaps I misunderstand you.

    As Logos suggested, perhaps you could clarify what it is you're saying or asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki"
    Are all people superficial? *sigh*
    No.

    My ESFj friend is one of the deepest people I know. Just today she read me something she wrote at 12 and it sounded like something a 60 year old could have written.
    Oh, to find you in dreams - mixing prior, analog, and never-beens... facts slip and turn and change with little lucidity. except the strong, permeating reality of emotion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:



    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    To be perfectly honest, I would probably respond positively and in kind. Not that I enjoy small talk type questions that much, but I try to talk on other people's levels. Certainly doesn't sound like a bad person really. It's all in the details, I guess.
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    I can understand that, munenori.

    Perhaps I should not have made any socionics correlations here.

    Ok, the following has to do with this specific instance: I just have a hard time taking "pleasant small talk" seriously, or enjoyably, when the person I am talking to has done things that revolt me. I just don't understand how someone can really think that making a lot of effort on the "PR" scale can account for serious personal issues. I don't get how that rationalization takes place. And what bothers me most is the idea of "that's none of your business". Like, thinking that if people don't know about what goes on, and they just see you smiling and saying nice things to them, then that is ultimately something that is good. That you can be at peace in that way. I don't understand that.

    Yeah, even if that sort of interaction is "what you value", or if it makes you smile or be happy, it doesn't really matter. I mean, an extreme example, what if this person killed someone and was still acting this way - does it in anyway change the fact that she killed someone? No. (It almost happened, actually). So to me I just wonder what this person is trying to pull. The intentional deception of "private matters", the focus on having a positive image in spite of questionable actions, and the focus on trying to have a bright, cheery course of interaction while, when it is me, her, and her husband are all in the car together, there is almost no talking and the air is full of tension*. I don't understand how someone could act that way. It seems totally fake to me, and it bothers me a lot.
    The tension has to do with 1) the interpersonal issues and control issues the couple is dealing with and 2) my contempt for the situation, my personal desire to distance myself from the said person, and most of all, my extreme dislike to try to pretend like nothing is wrong and just be happy or cheery


    I stared this thread to try to figure out if there was any socionics reasoning here, beyond the clear issue that the person in question is in an unhealthy state.


    Perhaps this thread ought to be moved to Anything Goes and just be a rant thread. Reading the "beta Fe" niffweed thread, yeah, I see some things there, but, I don't want to point to a "bad example" and say "this is Fe valuing!", etc. That is to say I am not sure how much socionics value can easily be extracted from this thread.
    Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
    If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.

    ~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
    ~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.

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