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Thread: Romancing Styles / Erotic Attitudes

  1. #121
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    @wacey Wow your post made me laugh a ton! So F-ing funny--here I am exposing my "covert" creative schemes, &then you respond with "ya when they do this they're pretty transparent...pouty...endearing". I'm not quite sure whether you've ruined me or fixed me! I need to qualify with the fact that this is a long-distance relationship, where sometimes months can pass without meeting, so the stakes of bailing are higher than in a typical situation.

    Unfortunately I have never been acquainted with an ESI. However, just from your observations I can see that I could truly evolve as a result of the kinds of interactions you described. For example--calling me out on my schemes in a gentle yet constructive way. Maybe saying "I truly AM just really tired, &I know that cancelling like this will upset you, so pick next Tues, Wed or Thurs &I guarantee I will MORE than make it up to you! I loved your comment that sometimes you just feel the need to stand your ground, consequences and extra hoops be damned. I absolutely agree. What kind of relationship is it if we can't have the freedom to cancel some plans when we choose? For sure I would HATE a spineless "yes m'am" kind of partner!

    In truth, though, they are putty. They have almost no emotional skin and can become really hurt.
    Shhhh! No really--it is the truth. And it's so humbling because we try to "read the manual" (ie. Socionics!) & tackle this as we do any other task we'd love to master, but you just can't take your Inferior/Suggestive and ever expect to impress or excel. In my example about handling the cancellation, it's like a LIE doing a sport &continuously losing...& therefore throwing the racket across the court exclaiming "fine then I'm not playing!". Haha it IS F-ing funny. But you're right--duality has your back because it's so equally balanced in a tit for tat way, that it forms its own safe, complete, self-generating circle. That vulnerability of the LIE is necessary to, as you said, show how deeply invested our emotions truly are for us to make such a pathetic and immature display.

    Regarding your comment "if only you hadn't been so stubborn". The truth is my actions, though perhaps an overreaction, served to empower me. I flipped from the exasperation and inadequacy of Fi, over to Te in order to bring about the esteem I had lost by the rejection. In other words I thought: "Fuck I just "lost" here...how can I squeeze some utility out of this situation &turn it into something positive?" I then proceeded to get a ton of work done there, recharged by taking some additional personal time, and effectively ensured things should go better next time...since he remarked "We can't allow this much time to pass anymore...I wish I had met you when I had the chance". Also I didn't have to lower myself & bitch about anything, I just was a bit distant. More dignified (or so I THOUGHT...before you had clarified that I was transparent)!

    Your remark about how LIE will always crack the joke--definitely true! And the reason is because that's our way of saying "oh fuck that was embarrassing...please let's change the subject because we're good!". Even though we'll embarrass ourselves again--because we WANT to be true &authentic, and to invest in allowing you to see and know who we truly are. Thank you for your response, I learned so very much. My apologies for the Gamma rant that wasn't keeping on topic with the theme of Erotic Styles.

  2. #122
    Alomoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhaegar View Post
    It's disgusting how relatable I find the aggressive victim description to be.
    It is quite horrible, yes. Still, probably the best answer. I'd rather be the carpenter than the walrus.

    So. More Gammas? Hi. Damn EIE brother, and damn IEI friend, well, not anymore, ofcourse. Lying all the time. These lies don't help anyone, you know. "I'm not strong", is the current one. You can tell, because I can't do dips without my arm shaking.

    Even though most people can't do dips. Yes, I'm going to break the social norms and values. Wait, no I'm not, I'm simply going to describe my worst ones. So the answer is if I'm among friends, 2. If I'm among enemies, 1.

    Oh nice. Putin-vs-******030914.jpg

    Stupid supervisor relations. Could someone else help me here? Putin is not ****** right? ****** is my supervisor. Keeps me from saying hi to Putin, cause they look alike. I would solve the problem myself, but I need help. Either that, or I'm their supervisor. I don't know.

    Oh, and I decided Stalin is my look a like. Venting comeplete.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Alomoes; 02-08-2015 at 06:56 PM.

  3. #123
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    Actually, I've decided this whole system is shit. Transcend the system. Not telling you how.

    elsa-einstein.jpg

    Duals

    Beethoven out.

  4. #124
    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ENJoymENT View Post
    It was my understanding that in Gamma, the Aggressor has an emotionally stable and healthy trust/belief in their own feelings, as well as in those of their partner. This is due to their strong Fi. It is the ILI and LIE, with their weak Se and Fi, who require continuous reassurance of the authenticity of their partner's feelings.

    By challenging the SEE or ESI to repeatedly prove and demonstrate the strength of their feelings, the ILI or LIE ensures their partner is still worthy of receiving their devotion and vulnerability (both physical and emotional). The SEE and the ESI are more than willing to do this, as it falls within their sphere of strength in the relationship--asserting (Se) their feelings (Fi). This Se/Fi demonstration is akin to an ILI or LIE deriving value and esteem from pointing out the most efficient way for their SEE or ESI to accomplish a task.

    That Gamma dynamic precisely illuminates the problem I had with the title of "Victim". It is essential to the ILI and LIE not to feel as though they are "giving away" (against their will), their precious physical trust and vulnerable feelings to an unworthy recipient. For comparison's sake, this distinction could be best explained by the difference between benevolently allowing one's Aggressor partner to physically/sexually dominate or benefit within the intimate partnership, versus being raped (truly victimized) by a random stranger. Thus the distinction between Victim and Devotee.

    The ILI and LIE harbour an innate fear of being emotionally "fooled". Thus they continually devise creative schemes and obstacles using Ni & Te, in an attempt to trick the SEE or ESI into unknowingly revealing their true feelings and intentions. It sounds deceptive but it is merely a protective mechanism, given the ILI and LIE's deficiencies of emotional savviness, to level the intimate playing field.
    I put the following in another thread. I wanted to post it here so that you would see it Enjoyment. I think your post is incredibly accurate and the writing to easily followed. Full props.

    Pseudo-Aggressors/Employees: LIE (ENTj) ILI (INTp)




    [Even the way the music opens you can just tell its from a socionic victim perspective. He is not answering her calls.....]

    I don’t see you laugh
    You don’t call me back
    But you kiss me when you’re drunk
    [Victim confusion]

    I don’t know your friends
    Don’t know where you’ve been
    Why are you the one I want
    [More victim confusion, vacillating from indignant anger, to stupefied adoration. A sort of attitude of "why are you not spending your time with me?"

    Don’t put your lips up to my mouth and tell me you can’t stay
    Don’t slip your hand under my shirt and tell me it’s okay [Ahhh, Jake, don't be like that. She likes you, man.]
    Don’t say it doesn’t matter cause it’s gonna matter to me
    I can’t be alone with you...
    You’ve got me out on the edge every time you call
    And I know it would kill me if I fall
    I can’t be alone with you
    [Gamma romance of rights and dominion between partners, increasing introverted feeling closeness. Petulance when slipping hand under shirt, victim pouting that needs to be overcome by strong, certain feelings by the significant other. Being on edge every time this person calls, they become the whole world, their behaviour making or breaking the victims sentiments. Up and down, roller coaster: "just look at all these things you put me through and yet I can't be without you". Things for the employees do matter, erotically they can become very touchy with their attachments, which suits the employers just fine. ILI and LIE put out these road blocks because they are in CONTINUAL need for reassurance of their partner's authentic feelings. When those actions of their partner's do not line up with the ILI/ LIE expectations of what people should do with each other then it forces them to question the need to be vulnerable and open up to them as a result. This is the points they require demonstrated affectional acts as a way of proving they are loved for real.]

    Please don’t chain that door
    I can’t win this war
    Your body’s like a pill I shouldn’t take
    [Equality between partners is a huge theme in semi-victim/ semi-aggressor erotic relationships]

    Don’t put your lips up to my mouth and tell me you can’t stay
    Don’t slip your hand under my shirt and tell me it’s okay
    Don’t say it doesn’t matter cause it’s gonna matter to me
    I can’t be alone with you...
    You’ve got me out on the edge every time you call
    And I know it would kill me if I fall
    I can’t be alone with you

    Don’t put your lips up to my mouth and tell me you can’t stay
    Don’t slip your hand under my shirt and tell me it’s okay
    Don’t say you love me cause you know you’re gonna love me and leave
    [Mind-frame of "Why even put ourselves through this if you are just going to leave?" It's a victim like tactic, urging the aggressor to stay]

    I can’t be alone with you...
    You’ve got me out on the edge every time you call
    And I know it would kill me if I fall
    I can’t be alone with you

    I don’t see you laugh
    You don’t call me back
    But you kiss me when you’re drunk
    [Semi-victims, employees, wondering at the lack of demonstrated affection, always on the search for more forceful introverted feeling, to be quested over, to be desired and to be, and this is the BIG IDEA here: to be included. To have that connection, in all ways possible. Otherwise...they are left alone...then what is the point anymore? The drunk kiss is an act of love. When a person is drunk they are at once showing truer, less inhibited affection, open affection and being desired over. It also shows the containment and submissiveness of Gamma aggressors in other parts of life, that for a brief moment is allowed to rest and be completely forthright. The employee is always wanting more of this and so the relationship moves forward two steps, then pauses, then two steps, then pauses while each member gains their bearings.]

    [I think this song is very much the victim mentality a person looking for someone to withstand their sensitivity quarks and be sure of their feelings without giving into the victims relational game playing. This look entirely different in Fi valuing people, intuitive thinkers or sensory feelers, then it does in beta couples. Tenderness towards attachments is allowed here and is even encouraged as the ILI/LIE try teasing out how their partner really feels towards them. This process brings them closer together, even if it may look rocky to outsiders.]

    These are types who exhibit aggressive tendencies in their everyday life, and as a result tend to carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. They typically are not comfortable with connotations of the word "victim" - implying a certain weakness, effeteness, and lack of dignity. In searching for a partner, they are looking for a worthy opponent - someone who is strong enough to withstand their quirks without "breaking" so to speak.
    Last edited by wacey; 05-17-2015 at 05:50 AM.

  5. #125
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    When i first started learning Socionics i thought these descriptions were bullshit. 2 years in and being an "agressor" is more important to me then Quadra. Earlier I'm like "pfft no, that's utter crap, there's no way I'm an aggressor, and there's no way any of these define me at all." Now I'm like "yo this is some important shit."
    The thing is that these descriptions aren't well written. Also when i first started Socionics it was hard for me to even admit to myself that i had even an ounce of pushiness. Basically i was just an unhealthy person who had an unrealistic view of myself. The only reason that i consider that relevant to this topic is that i'd bet allot of people are unaware that they might be disagreeing because of those two reasons: 1. Unrealistic self image 2. Cloudy explanations of what it means.
    Having either ni, se, si, or ne in your ego means many things. It also means exactly what the romantic styles were "trying to" frame. Understanding erotic attitudes is like understanding rein dichotomies in that you first have to understand what it *doesn't mean and then start to peice together heart of the issue.
    Edited to include more info.
    Being an aggressor means you don't like things too come easily you don't like people doing things for you, you want to be competent, and challenges stimulate you into action.
    When applied to ni interaction (flirting, post coitus, courtship) it means that a certain amount of insecurity is attractive. (wut?) Or that some vagueness is appreciated, or even if not consciously appreciated, it stimulates interest. Vsgueness might not be the best way to put it. There's a certain aspect to ni, like it can't really be figured out. Every moment it accumulates more context so it's like you can't really completely explain it. There's always something to learn. I'll admit that when ni manifests as vague or unsure, it triggers something inside of me that makes me go crazy. Then i (light my pitchfork) am motivated to understand (conquer; expose) the unknown information (vagueness/insecurity).
    Also when someone is easy or really eager it's a turn off. I'll do the pushing ty very much. (I hate be typist but i have to say this) si ego feels so pushy. It's weird. I really don't know how to explain it. It crowds me. I'm usually very uninterested in being persued and if i give *not interested vibes and someone doesn't pick up on that, i get really uncomfortable.
    Wow this sounds fuxd up. I should edit this later...
    Last edited by carrina; 06-05-2015 at 05:45 AM.

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Actually, I've decided this whole system is shit. Transcend the system. Not telling you how.

    elsa-einstein.jpg

    Duals

    Beethoven out.
    LMFAO. we have a winner.

  7. #127
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waddlesworth View Post
    I'm very afraid of being hurt. So much that I have extreme difficulties in making the first move because I'm not sure if I REALLY am reading the person's intentions or not. I think this lets girls think that they can get away with more around me and not expect anything and then "BAM!" just when i give it a shot, my worst fears come true "EW, GET OFF OF ME YOU FREAK!" it never happened but i'm worried it will. but then again, why would she be so close if she thought i was a freak... alright, next time she does the "lay next to" baby talk im goin' in for the kill! well, the love. you get the idea.

    but once the wheels are in motion i'm very sexually demanding and every morning turns into a sex fest for me. I can get very annoying I'm sure.

    "What, you don't want to love me? you don't want to express in the flesh your bodily love for me? why? am I ugly? you find me unnattractive? Obviously i'm not turning you on so it must be true. Well, i guess not, but still... well... not even a handjob? if you loved me you'd give me a handjob... THEN I'd shutup. if you don't give me a handjob you must think I'm gross because you will only gain by giving me one. I'll stop complaining, feel happy, AND be my normal self again. isn't that what you want? I promise I'll be quick. Maybe it'll even turn you on a little, then i promise i'll return the favor."


    I've learned my lesson and probably wont do that anymore.
    This grossed me out immensely. I thought i was going to learn something so i kept reading. Nope.
    Are you by any chance an si valuer? Just a blind walk off a cliff (i mean blind guess)

  8. #128
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    "Victim
    - Can project either a submissive or arrogant view of themselves
    - The openly submissive version never questions the partners
    control but expects the partner to "show the way" in all aspects"
    I've found this to be extremely true. EIEs can be arrogant assholes "I'm not weak, I'm dominant" (lol) and then you have EIEs are way too ready to be controlled.
    You have LIEs who think they're god's hilarious gift to women, can't be held down or domesticated (i'll admit it's not a horrible look for LIEs *grumble) and then you have LIEs that are more "broken in" (happens after a heart break, shit break up etc.) I've seen this variation referenced in literature that i would cite if i actually remembered it.
    I've never seen an IEI that didn't like being treated aggressively, the less you give a shit about how they react, the more positively they respond (sorry if i sound crude, just being honest). I'll admit that just because i haven't seen "assertive/doninant" iei's doesnt mean they don't exist. and i have no idea how ILIs are, but i can imagine any variation on the aggressive vs submissive pole/dichotomy. My past interaction isn't telling in that way, since back then i was really insecure. *Shrugs.
    Last edited by carrina; 06-05-2015 at 06:11 AM.

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Typhon View Post
    I wonder if people can "switch".
    Haha lol. Yeah probably. *Context makes all the difference here.
    Last edited by carrina; 06-05-2015 at 05:59 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    I guess I'm not a victim Dirty talk tends to sound amusing to me or sometimes "hostile" although in very rare cases it works. I'm not sure about the baby-talk though...maybe if it was really genuine. Wrong kind of baby-talk works as badly as wrong kind of dirty talk
    Amusing + hostile. Hmm. * ponders. Yep sounds normal to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    Possibly. Since the descriptions are so simplified in the first place, it's pretty easy to be in another category than what you're supposed to be in.

    So yes, there are people that don't correspond.
    My thoughts exactly. *Cannot compute oversimplification

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    No ESTp has ever won a mental sparring with me. We go on and on and on and on and on louder and louder and louder.

    They might win job interwievs is if the interviewer is impressed by bullshit.
    ESTp's nvr pwn me ever cuz i know their dumb tricks. All they do is try to rapidly change their argument subtly and other b.s. b.s. radar too strong. SLEs are funny though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousSoul View Post
    ISFPs are perhaps the most openly nurturing type. The best choice if you are looking for a loving mother figure... If not - maybe you are not an ENTP. INFPs again - well they are a victim type. I cannot tell better since there is little intimate attraction.

    Also keep in mind that the whole "emo-culture" is unlikely behavior for the infantile types. The preference for the gentle touch is more often the kind of love that dare not speak its name.
    I don't even know what you just tried to communicate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    One victim I talked to said that the SLE's aggression made him feel wanted. LSEs, by contrast, are less comfortable chasing someone who's sending mixed signals. They're happy to do all the work/initiate if they know it's what you want though.



    lol

    2006 Joy knew what was up before all those years of thinking LIE and SLE.
    Haha lol @ your edit.
    This is actually why i love and hate EIEs. The level of chasery is beyond my abilities re: "arrogant" pseudo's< Not applicable to the less "dominant" eie's.

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    Quote Originally Posted by carrina View Post
    You have LIEs who think they're god's hilarious gift to women, can't be held down or domesticated (i'll admit it's not a horrible look for LIEs *grumble) and then you have LIEs that are more "broken in" (happens after a heart break, shit break up etc.) I've seen this variation referenced in literature that i would cite if i actually remembered it.
    I have encountered both aspects in the same person. Well, that one person told me about their "broken in" phase. Though generally, I could see the LIE-Ni being more Victim and "soft" because of stronger Ni. LIE-Te would be much more in denial about their Victim-ness. (Similar to that would be EIE-Fe.)

    Quote Originally Posted by carrina View Post
    I've never seen an IEI that didn't like being treated aggressively, the less you give a shit about how they react, the more positively they respond (sorry if i sound crude, just being honest). I'll admit that just because i haven't seen "assertive/doninant" iei's doesnt mean they don't exist. and i have no idea how ILIs are, but i can imagine any variation on the aggressive vs submissive pole/dichotomy. My past interaction isn't telling in that way, since back then i was really insecure. *Shrugs.
    Hm, I do not mind being treated aggressively, but at some point I can flare up if it goes into a direction I dislike. I used to be in some kind of denial myself regarding being a "Victim". I would not deny the description itself, but I would have a sort of passive-aggressive attitude romantically. I still do at times. I can go into a pseudo-aggressor mode when I am feeling very confident, and energetically "stronger" than the other. But eventually, it only takes one little moment for me to realize how much of a "Victim" I am. I usually surrender much faster with an aggressor than with any other romance style (though it still takes quite a while). I experience the most resistance with Childlike types, I am likely to act very dismissive and hot-and-cold with them. I think me being the Ni subtype also moves me towards being more Pseudo-Aggressor. I can have that attitude of "Tame me if you can."
    Last edited by Olimpia; 06-05-2015 at 12:45 PM.

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    The sleeping beauty Velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SisOfNight View Post
    I can have that attitude of "Tame me if you can."
    This made me tick so much, I totally relate. The cookie comes after a lot of effort, and it's not necessarily in time but in intensity and means applied to win my interest. And the rest makes sense as well (for infantiles + attitude).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    This made me tick so much, I totally relate. The cookie comes after a lot of effort, and it's not necessarily in time but in intensity and means applied to win my interest. And the rest makes sense as well (for infantiles + attitude).
    tame? that would suggest a animal like person. Why not just enjoy the person? ok so I can understand presenting a difficult to get close to attitude as you may not trust people yet. However, it's still kind of too playful I think too much like the scene in "intolerable cruelty" movie with Katherine Zeta Jones where the reporter "nails" the cheating husband. lol
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  18. #138
    The sleeping beauty Velvet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    tame? that would suggest a animal like person. Why not just enjoy the person? ok so I can understand presenting a difficult to get close to attitude as you may not trust people yet. However, it's still kind of too playful I think too much like the scene in "intolerable cruelty" movie with Katherine Zeta Jones where the reporter "nails" the cheating husband. lol
    Maybe I should watch the movie before replying anything as your comment seems all greek to me for the moment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    tame? that would suggest a animal like person.
    People are animals. The se-ni quadras accept that lul

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velvet View Post
    This made me tick so much, I totally relate. The cookie comes after a lot of effort, and it's not necessarily in time but in intensity and means applied to win my interest. And the rest makes sense as well (for infantiles + attitude).
    LIEs aren't as hard to get as the beta psuedos but I've definitely seen this attitude. It's part of being a "trophy". The term is slightly degrading but it fits if you remove the popularly preferred term "trophy-wife" which has no resemblance to the meaning here

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    [QUOTE=SisOfNight;1091901]I have encountered both aspects in the same person. Well, that one person told me about their "broken in" phase. Though generally, I could see the LIE-Ni being more Victim and "soft" because of stronger Ni. LIE-Te would be much more in denial about their Victim-ness. (Similar to that would be EIE-Fe.)



    LIE-C and LIE-D are more dominant,
    LIE-H and N are less so.
    Yeah EIE-E is very dominant as a matter of pride and EIE ni is inherently submissive in my experience.

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