Romancing Styles / Erotic Attitudes

[Expat]

I just had an idea that infantile types could be aggressive in the way children can be aggressive sort of.

I think the key phrase is, "in the way children can be aggressive", which is not the way Aggressors are like. So they're still being Infantile.

So basically you say only in identical careful-careful, aggressor-aggressor, etc pairs the switch can really be seen?

Well, I'm just relating my observations and deductions - definitely , not . I'm not putting together any system, just relating what I have observed and that makes sense to me.

I'm not sure that any real "switch" can ever be seen if by that a permanent one is meant. I have observed careful-careful and infantile-infantile couples interacting (no, not during actual intercourse) and it seems to me that during such interactions, one of them "agrees" to play the dual's role, in a "right, now it's my turn" sort of way, but unconsciously and only if the shift is back-and-forth and not permanent. I think it would be frustrating for a Careful to play Infantile all the time and vice-versa.

But again, I'm basing these observations on a very small sampling.

[Joy]

Although I relate to the aggressor more than infantile or victim, it's still just a role that I can slide into. It's not who I am by default. I am not all about talking dirty... though IMO variety is important. That's why I take on other roles for short periods of time.

[Joy]

I don't use baby talk. I think it's cute and endearing when done the right way though. I'm just really affectionate.

[ladyinred]

I think the key phrase is, "in the way children can be aggressive", which is not the way Aggressors are like. So they're still being Infantile.



Well, I'm just relating my observations and deductions - definitely , not . I'm not putting together any system, just relating what I have observed and that makes sense to me.

I'm not sure that any real "switch" can ever be seen if by that a permanent one is meant. I have observed careful-careful and infantile-infantile couples interacting (no, not during actual intercourse) and it seems to me that during such interactions, one of them "agrees" to play the dual's role, in a "right, now it's my turn" sort of way, but unconsciously and only if the shift is back-and-forth and not permanent. I think it would be frustrating for a Careful to play Infantile all the time and vice-versa.

But again, I'm basing these observations on a very small sampling.

bumping

[jet city woman]

Victim
- ENTj
- INTp
- ENFj
- INFp

So this would mean that my only choices (and the relationships that would actually work out), would be ENTj or ENFj. Wow. So basically, I have one choice lol (according to this).
I'm finding that this stuff pertains in my relationships. I was forced into a caregiver role in my last ltr, and I was miserable. (Of course, it was with a disordered person, but I still get the gist of what it would be like otherwise.)

I also found this chart, and found it pretty interesting theory, and possibly valid.


"These updated graphs illustrate the theory that (1) type and subtype determine erotic attitude; (2)subtype is a continuous spectrum (rather than discrete); and (3) one's subtype preference will determine the relative expression of each of the two erotic attitudes within the type's respective subloop. For example, an INTj with a strong Ti subtype (relative to his/her Ne subtype) would expressive a substantial amount of aggressor attitude; however, no matter how strong the Ti subtype is, the INTj will always be predominantly infantile (although the INTj could theoretically be almost half infantile/half aggressor if Ti was incredibly strong). On the other hand, an INTj with a very strong Ne (relative to his/her Ti) would epitomize infantile attitude (because Ne is the core determinant of infantile expression), and in this case, the aggressor attitude would be almost nonexistent. The basic premise is that types exhibit a mixture of two erotic attitudes (infantile and aggressor, or caregiver and victim) based on their subtype.
I had trouble creating one fully descriptive circle (hence the diagonal line, which represents the problem I ran into illustrating the theory), so instead I divided the one circle into two smaller circles, each containing an introverted and extroverted subloop."

[Olimpia]

Agreed.

I have observed that Careful types tend to eventually fall into some sort of baby-talk, like "aaawwwwwwwww baaaaaaaaaaby, are you ooooooooookaaaay?" You won't hear this from an aggressor; aggressor-victim eventually get into dirty talk.

Ugh, this reminds me of one interaction I once had with an INTj.
He was the Ne subtype, and was really into this baby talk thing. Thinking of nicknames like "darling", or "baby", something along those lines.
He kept saying how cute I was, etc.
… I cannot stand baby talk.

[mu4]

Ugh, this reminds me of one interaction I once had with an INTj.
He was the Ne subtype, and was really into this baby talk thing. Thinking of nicknames like "darling", or "baby", something along those lines.
He kept saying how cute I was, etc.
… I cannot stand baby talk.

I think the original post is kinda of terrible.

[darya]

I think the original post is kinda of terrible.

Oh, I've just noticed...this is not actually by Gulenko?

Though I have to say (again), that I see these dynamics played out with surprising accuracy in couples around me all the time.

[InvisibleJim]

latest beef with typologionics

Romance styles are a bit reductionistic.

Although romance styles can be 'fun' to play with there is always a danger when moving from Model A 'types' to Reinin/Quadra/Style 'trait' behaviours.

/latest beef with typologionics, type vs traits blah blah, wank wank wank

[mu4]

Just doesn't focus enough on the cognitive or relationship quality as a factor of information preference. Also specific intertype relations are very different.

For example: Look-alike relations are a whole world of difference from super-ego relations.

[IBTL]

I wonder if these "attitudes" are any good and if they are could they be applied to all human interaction not just love or erotic related.

yes - it's just applied ego

[Rhaegar]

It's disgusting how relatable I find the aggressive victim description to be.

[Soupman]

Careful and Aggressor both fit me.

This is exactly what I have seen, LSE and SLE both have that aggressor careful style, they oddly expect submission; all the caring is done in an indirect way. My SLI father exudes authority

I know Victor Gulenko personally. He is a smart person with very broad interests. However, he tends to terminological reductionism: he always attempts to explain complicated things in terms of few simple words. The same is with the concept of love types. The author of the topic DID NOT DISTORT Gulenko's views: he said exactly what was written in Gulenko's article.

That is why infantile is stronger in me despite being likely ILI C, my quest for novelty seems incompatible with the idea Gulenko has about orientating towards the past.

[Ver]

This is exactly what I have seen, LSE and SLE both have that aggressor careful style, they oddly expect submission; all the caring is done in an indirect way. My SLI father exudes authority

I agree up to a point. I'm in a relationship with ESTj and I used to be with ESTp (although not that serious). They are very similar on the outside but on the inside they are different. For me (infantile) it means a very comfortable relationship with the first one and a very tense with the second. The best thing is that ESTj has all the traits I admire in ESTp but has no bad traits.

Both care indirectly, not in a motherly way. Both are controlling. Both give a sense of security, are very down-to-earth people.

ESTp is more cruel in my perception. He never steps down, whenever there's a conflict he wants to win and doesn't care if he hurts.
The article mentions aggressors play victim. He would say "you don't care about me, your friends are more important to you" whereas he probably wanted to get some affection.
For ESTj it's also important not to be submissive but he seeks peace. He's also not "dark and deep" at all. Rather the opposite.

Also their romance style is totally different.
ESTp is a dirty boy. He will throw comments about your e.g. ass, make the atmosphere hot then all of a sudden slow down. He jokes about sex. He would enjoy everyone admire him as if he was a celebrity. Also, he would start serious talks to get to the depths of you.
ESTj when pursuing is a real gentleman and even a teddy bear. He takes things really slow, he wants to be friends and want to make you comfortable. He's just reaaaaaaaaly nice, asks you if you need sth all the time, plans thing he'll do with you.
Also, idk if that's type related but my ESTj was really genereous when we were dating. He wanted to pay for everything.
ESTp wasn't like that at all.
This is how I see the difference between the two. I'm wondering if there are any victims with similar experience and how they see the two.

[Joy]

One victim I talked to said that the SLE's aggression made him feel wanted. LSEs, by contrast, are less comfortable chasing someone who's sending mixed signals. They're happy to do all the work/initiate if they know it's what you want though.

The more I think about it, the more I see what I felt to be aggressor attitude to be more of a careful attitude.

lol

2006 Joy knew what was up before all those years of thinking LIE and SLE.

[willekeurig]

ESTp is more cruel in my perception. He never steps down, whenever there's a conflict he wants to win and doesn't care if he hurts.
The article mentions aggressors play victim. He would say "you don't care about me, your friends are more important to you" whereas he probably wanted to get some affection.
For ESTj it's also important not to be submissive but he seeks peace. He's also not "dark and deep" at all. Rather the opposite.

Also their romance style is totally different.
ESTp is a dirty boy. He will throw comments about your e.g. ass, make the atmosphere hot then all of a sudden slow down. He jokes about sex. He would enjoy everyone admire him as if he was a celebrity. Also, he would start serious talks to get to the depths of you.
ESTj when pursuing is a real gentleman and even a teddy bear. He takes things really slow, he wants to be friends and want to make you comfortable. He's just reaaaaaaaaly nice, asks you if you need sth all the time, plans thing he'll do with you.
Also, idk if that's type related but my ESTj was really genereous when we were dating. He wanted to pay for everything.
ESTp wasn't like that at all.
This is how I see the difference between the two. I'm wondering if there are any victims with similar experience and how they see the two.

I don't have any experience of SLEs in sexual contexts so I can't really make comparisons, though based on the friendships I've had with SLEs I have no trouble seeing how what you described could be true to a lot of them. However, I think there is also a classier, more old-fashined "subtype" of SLEs; they'd be unlikely of at least very careful about making any dirty comments or jokes about sex. Some of the ones I know won't even swear, because it just doesn't fit their style of classic gentleman. Think of Frank Sinatra, for example.

I mostly agree with what you say about LSE:s. They're mostly upbeat and live in the moment, but I have met some with a vibe of "dark and deep", too. In my experience, LSEs being controlling and avoiding submissiveness (in themselves) isn't entirely true either. They sure don't hesitate to take control or initiate, but I've found that they also like to switch roles and enjoy adopting more submissive roles, even if it's not their first or most natural approach.
"asks if you need sth all the time" I find to be true to a painful degree. Not sure if this is Ni polr or what, but they seem to be needing new information about people's states all the time. Asking if I want water is nice, but if you don't believe the answer is "no" after the third time I will be sure to feed you the bottle.

[Ver]

It's interesting to observe how people are different. I have a girl friend who I suspect to be ESTp or at least some Se type (might be gamma too). When I was dating my ESTj (and I wasn't sure if we were dating) she would come to the party with me and she thought he was gay because he didn't try to "dance dirty" with me or touch me or kiss me. That was her style. That's how she perceives chasing, she needs this intensity, physicality in order to feel wanted. I liked the fact he asked me if I wanted to drink all the time. (bad news is he's not like that after a few years ;( ;( at least not to that extent). Agarina: I think it's just them trying to be nice - maybe weak Fe? If he doesn't want to be aggressive and he really likes you how else can he show it? He just wants you to make sure he'll do much to make you feel comfortable.

[Ver]

I mostly agree with what you say about LSE:s. They're mostly upbeat and live in the moment, but I have met some with a vibe of "dark and deep", too. In my experience, LSEs being controlling and avoiding submissiveness (in themselves) isn't entirely true either. They sure don't hesitate to take control or initiate, but I've found that they also like to switch roles and enjoy adopting more submissive roles, even if it's not their first or most natural approach.

ESTjs I know, especially the one I know most enjoy submissiveness but it's a different kind of it, not like the victim. It's more like love covered "don't get angry" "ok, we'll do it your way". (I treat my daughter this way) I found it true for each caregiver I know. They let you do many things but they are keeping an eye on you.

[Soupman]

I agree up to a point. I'm in a relationship with ESTj and I used to be with ESTp (although not that serious). They are very similar on the outside but on the inside they are different. For me (infantile) it means a very comfortable relationship with the first one and a very tense with the second. The best thing is that ESTj has all the traits I admire in ESTp but has no bad traits.

Both care indirectly, not in a motherly way. Both are controlling. Both give a sense of security, are very down-to-earth people.

ESTp is more cruel in my perception. He never steps down, whenever there's a conflict he wants to win and doesn't care if he hurts.
The article mentions aggressors play victim. He would say "you don't care about me, your friends are more important to you" whereas he probably wanted to get some affection.
For ESTj it's also important not to be submissive but he seeks peace. He's also not "dark and deep" at all. Rather the opposite.

Also their romance style is totally different.
ESTp is a dirty boy. He will throw comments about your e.g. ass, make the atmosphere hot then all of a sudden slow down. He jokes about sex. He would enjoy everyone admire him as if he was a celebrity. Also, he would start serious talks to get to the depths of you.
ESTj when pursuing is a real gentleman and even a teddy bear. He takes things really slow, he wants to be friends and want to make you comfortable. He's just reaaaaaaaaly nice, asks you if you need sth all the time, plans thing he'll do with you.
Also, idk if that's type related but my ESTj was really genereous when we were dating. He wanted to pay for everything.
ESTp wasn't like that at all.
This is how I see the difference between the two. I'm wondering if there are any victims with similar experience and how they see the two.

I understand your point but the ESTP you describe is quite an asshole, I know INFPs and they would not put up with such a loser.

The gentleman traits are in a ESTP Normalising subtype I know.

[Soupman]

ESTjs I know, especially the one I know most enjoy submissiveness but it's a different kind of it, not like the victim. It's more like love covered "don't get angry" "ok, we'll do it your way". (I treat my daughter this way) I found it true for each caregiver I know. They let you do many things but they are keeping an eye on you.

I have noticed that you keep describing the Assertor Devotee relations in the healthy form; the Socionics Britannica guys have been talking about it and that is the reason they've changed the terminology with the blessing of Viktor Gulenko himself, there is a post on their page. Their new idea is defining healthy and unhealthy forms of each erotic attitude and from what I've heard:

Assetors: A Knight in control, offers respect to those under their wing;
Aggressor: Interested in controlling, domineering, in the relations;

Devotee: Voluntary devotion to someone who they can trust
Victim: Unhealthy devotion to an individual, fear

Caregiver: Cares allowing their partner to flourish
Smother: Smothers the prospective partner in order to feel wanted

Charmer (Infantile): exciting charming
Childish: Childish, selfish

[wacey]

I thought these were supposed to be erotic attitudes.....whats with this new movement making them sound more politically correct?

The famous: healthy / unhealthy dichotomy.

[Aylen]

I am put off by the term "devotee".

[ENJoymENT]

Interesting. I very much prefer the "Devotee" title over "Victim"! Victim personally conjures up an image of laying there like a dead fish Devotee implies more of an active role which, in my opinion, is a more accurate description of the dynamic. It is a selfless gift of devotion bestowed upon a person's one & only. In fact it is very much an uncharacteristic &special display (at least for Gamma) of free-flowing "F" emotion, intense connectedness, caring, and vulnerability. However it is NOT granted lightly!

The D/V is very much steering the ship, and decides how much of themselves the A/A has proven s/he is worthy of receiving. In fact, once the A/A has experienced &received these "gifts", s/he then becomes indebted to, and invested in pleasing the D/V in a multitude of ways (not merely erotic), in order to maintain the D/V's good favour. In this way, the D/V becomes the A/A's Dr. Feelgood, and the Gamma-D/V creatively fulfills their F needs under the guise of Se-x. (Just my opinion).

I believe there is a very different dynamic in Beta vs Gamma. One would expect (in my opinion) for both the SLE and the LSI to be dominant in both the general as well as the erotic domain. In Gamma however, there is a changing of roles when the partners transition from the real-life to the erotic domain.

In erotic relations, I think the SEE and the ESI derive an additional psychological benefit from being the dominant aggressor over an ILI or LIE--who are typically more dominant and aggressive in many of the other facets of the relationship. Similarly, the ILI and LIE also become more psychologically well-rounded, in that they get to experience the healthy aspects of selfless giving and vulnerability within the safety of their one-on-one proven &trust-filled relationships. This introduces the added dimensions of equality, tenderness, and mutual dependency into the relations of Gamma.

[Aylen]

To me "devotee" equates to "follower". I don't consider myself a follower or a victim but some of the descriptions of that style match me, even if they are outdated.

[ENJoymENT]

To me "devotee" equates to "follower". I don't consider myself a follower or a victim but some of the descriptions of that style match me, even if they are outdated.

Yes--that's true However, I still prefer it. For me devotion connotes something noble...and willful; a conscious choice. If someone is a "devoted parent", there is an associated implication of superior performance, or an admirable level of commitment.

There is nothing shameful in following what one deems is inspiring or of high worth. I am a devoted fan of Jim Morrison's poetry. I deem him worthy of following his creative intelligence, without losing my sense of power to choose or reject. By choosing to anoint someone or something with devotion, one can amass those positive qualities to be seen as a reflection on oneself.

Being a devoted partner in a relationship is, in my opinion, a very high compliment--implying being secure enough to give freely to one's specially chosen One. It is a way of injecting strength into the relation's bond....doing one's part to make the union indestructible. A way to make one's chosen partner feel special, well-treated.

To me, being a Victim implies having being outsmarted, overtaken due to lack of will, "played"...or not having foreseen certain consequences.

[Joy]

"Devotee" doesn't seem accurate based on my understanding of the Victim style. Any type could be a devotee (or not).

My understanding of the victim/aggressor relation at this point can be overly simplified at follows:

Aggressor: Knows who they want and pursues without reservation. Doesn't trust that the other person feels the same unless they have to work for it.
Victim: Doesn't trust that the other person truly wants him/her unless that person works for it despite their efforts to put the other person off.

Caregivers see the victim as providing mixed messages, and they don't respond well to this. If the other person seems like he/she may not be interested, they back off.

[Joy]

And this:

erp! Different folks different strokes but the premise of this question spooks me. I wouldn't want to be approached by a dude I don't know if the approach was in any way motivated by """romantic""" interest. Tonight before I go to bed I'm gonna pray to god that this apparent trend of strangers not approaching that your friend has spotted diffuses throughout the nation so that I never have to awkwardly side-step out of a conversation with a complete stranger who "just wants 2 get 2 know me" and thinks that I'm somehow obligated to give them the time of day ever again!!!!!!!!!!! Many exclamation marks to emphasise exasperation.

is the compliment to this:

Caregivers see the victim as providing mixed messages, and they don't respond well to this. If the other person seems like he/she may not be interested, they back off.

[ENJoymENT]

Aggressor: ...Doesn't trust that the other person feels the same unless they have to work for it.

It was my understanding that in Gamma, the Aggressor has an emotionally stable and healthy trust/belief in their own feelings, as well as in those of their partner. This is due to their strong Fi. It is the ILI and LIE, with their weak Se and Fi, who require continuous reassurance of the authenticity of their partner's feelings.

By challenging the SEE or ESI to repeatedly prove and demonstrate the strength of their feelings, the ILI or LIE ensures their partner is still worthy of receiving their devotion and vulnerability (both physical and emotional). The SEE and the ESI are more than willing to do this, as it falls within their sphere of strength in the relationship--asserting (Se) their feelings (Fi). This Se/Fi demonstration is akin to an ILI or LIE deriving value and esteem from pointing out the most efficient way for their SEE or ESI to accomplish a task.

That Gamma dynamic precisely illuminates the problem I had with the title of "Victim". It is essential to the ILI and LIE not to feel as though they are "giving away" (against their will), their precious physical trust and vulnerable feelings to an unworthy recipient. For comparison's sake, this distinction could be best explained by the difference between benevolently allowing one's Aggressor partner to physically/sexually dominate or benefit within the intimate partnership, versus being raped (truly victimized) by a random stranger. Thus the distinction between Victim and Devotee.

The ILI and LIE harbour an innate fear of being emotionally "fooled". Thus they continually devise creative schemes and obstacles using Ni & Te, in an attempt to trick the SEE or ESI into unknowingly revealing their true feelings and intentions. It sounds deceptive but it is merely a protective mechanism, given the ILI and LIE's deficiencies of emotional savviness, to level the intimate playing field.

[yifflord]

The ILI and LIE harbour an innate fear of being emotionally "fooled". Thus they continually devise creative schemes and obstacles using Ni & Te, in an attempt to trick the SEE or ESI into unknowingly revealing their true feelings and intentions. It sounds deceptive but it is merely a protective mechanism, given the ILI and LIE's deficiencies of emotional savviness, to level the intimate playing field.

Could you provide an example of the kinds of schemes/obstacles that Ni and Te would concoct? I've been buds with LIEs and ILIs here and there and have been on the receiving end of what felt like someone 'testing' my affection for them but it was all pretty casual. I'm curious as to what you've done or observed gamma NTs doing along that vein.

[wacey]

Interesting. I very much prefer the "Devotee" title over "Victim"! Victim personally conjures up an image of laying there like a dead fish Devotee implies more of an active role which, in my opinion, is a more accurate description of the dynamic. It is a selfless gift of devotion bestowed upon a person's one & only. In fact it is very much an uncharacteristic &special display (at least for Gamma) of free-flowing "F" emotion, intense connectedness, caring, and vulnerability. However it is NOT granted lightly!

The D/V is very much steering the ship, and decides how much of themselves the A/A has proven s/he is worthy of receiving. In fact, once the A/A has experienced &received these "gifts", s/he then becomes indebted to, and invested in pleasing the D/V in a multitude of ways (not merely erotic), in order to maintain the D/V's good favour. In this way, the D/V becomes the A/A's Dr. Feelgood, and the Gamma-D/V creatively fulfills their F needs under the guise of Se-x. (Just my opinion).

I believe there is a very different dynamic in Beta vs Gamma. One would expect (in my opinion) for both the SLE and the LSI to be dominant in both the general as well as the erotic domain. In Gamma however, there is a changing of roles when the partners transition from the real-life to the erotic domain.

In erotic relations, I think the SEE and the ESI derive an additional psychological benefit from being the dominant aggressor over an ILI or LIE--who are typically more dominant and aggressive in many of the other facets of the relationship. Similarly, the ILI and LIE also become more psychologically well-rounded, in that they get to experience the healthy aspects of selfless giving and vulnerability within the safety of their one-on-one proven &trust-filled relationships. This introduces the added dimensions of equality, tenderness, and mutual dependency into the relations of Gamma.

Is it wrong that reading this makes me hard?

[Esaman]

Victim personally conjures up an image of laying there like a dead fish

It is essential to the ILI and LIE not to feel as though they are "giving away" (against their will), their precious physical trust and vulnerable feelings to an unworthy recipient. For comparison's sake, this distinction could be best explained by the difference between benevolently allowing one's Aggressor partner to physically/sexually dominate or benefit within the intimate partnership, versus being raped (truly victimized) by a random stranger. Thus the distinction between Victim and Devotee.

To me, being a Victim implies having being outsmarted, overtaken due to lack of will, "played"...or not having foreseen certain consequences.

So you went with your associations to "victim" instead of what socionics means by it and then argued against it. Good job.

Devotee
gift
indebted
invested

This sounds Fi/Te if anything socionics related. Would explain why wacey got excited.

[ENJoymENT]

So you went with your associations to "victim" instead of what socionics means by it and then argued against it. Good job.

I believe I reiterated what is commonly accepted about how Ni egos perceive "victimization". Namely:

"They typically are not comfortable with connotations of the word "victim" - implying a certain weakness, effeteness, and lack of dignity." Silke

While it is true there is a disclaimer stating that the "names of romancing styles should not be translated literally", what we were in fact discussing WAS which names we personally preferred as a more accurate heading description of the actual dynamic. If a certain group holds a particular repugnance towards something, it seems rather inappropriate to use that very word as its descriptive title/heading. That is akin to knowing that Se egos dislike being thought of as gentle, and then selecting "Meek" as the socionic heading for the Aggressors group, and then qualifying it with "don't attach the typical meaning of 'meek' to this group".

I read on one of the Russian sites of these same groups being referred to as "Deer" and "Hunter". I liked those name choices as well, since the Hunter chases...and the Deer tries to outsmart. Yes I'm speaking of MY associations with these words. I suppose I have to qualify everything with "this is just my personal opinion".

@yifflord I have a difficult time believing a LIE would deem it necessary to test a friend in this manner, most especially our Benefit! My very best friend is IEE, as well as my brother, and both of them see right through my defensive barriers, and (at times) my impenetrable exterior. They treat me in a gentle caring way that somehow is comforting as opposed to patronizing, and which completely disarms me.

It is only in the romantic domain where LIEs will duck into skeptical/paranoid/insecure mode. We just don't have the emotional skills to be thick-skinned & confident in this domain. We cannot comfortably handle abstract or subtle emotional signals, and then convert them accurately into emotional "facts" which we can rely on or place faith in. Our very best strategy is not to care...but once we DO care, we are at a terrible disadvantage. Our only strategy then becomes to creatively solicit constant reassurance to prove it is safe to keep the defences down.

A recent example I can share is when my SEE said he couldn't meet me as planned a few weeks prior to Christmas, since he had been "driving all day", and I was in the next town 30 minutes away. I have a super busy schedule, and it was so early in my opinion (7pm), to be turning in without making an effort. Plus I had purchased a gift that I was excited to give him. I felt disappointed and unimportant...for about 15 minutes. And then I geared down into my comfort zone of playing defensive.

I basically thought "fine, fuck him". He ended up getting sick with a cold for a few days, and then I purposely bumped up my flight to NYC by a few days, thereby ensuring we wouldn't see one another until after the Holidays. He texted me all through Xmas "I miss you so much I can't stand it...we didn't even see one another before Christmas!" By orchestrating this "enforced separation" I was able to discern that he was regretful of not being able to see one another--just as I was. It had only been his lack of foresight that the possibility of us not be able to see one another before the Holidays at all, was not worth the risk.

This incident may seem bitchy on my part, but actually I do stuff like that for our RELATIONSHIP; because if I am hurt and then become defensive like that too often, I start to habitually close off and that messes with my ability to be open, loving, vulnerable, and free with my true emotions. I guess I want to ensure we remain close.

Once a LIE goes into self preservation mode--look out! We shun any and all Fe or Si needs. I got so much shit done in NY! I had only 1 drink in 2 1/2 weeks. I even stayed in alone reading Margaret Atwood on New Years Eve. I returned refreshed and recharged LIEs absolutely want true love, but if we feel unappreciated or taken advantage of, we will NOT hesitate to walk away. Sounds strong, but actually it's weak

[wacey]

@ENJoymENT
^That is an amazingly lucid explanation. Aww, if only you hadn't been so stubborn. LIE do that stuff, yet at the same time find it so transparent. There are usually several options I can take, and sometimes I remain on the same path even though I know it will have negative consequences. I feel like "well its my right". I know this upsets the LIE, but I feel that in the long run its better for our relationship to have these boundaries drawn and stand my ground. And really no boundaries are set in stone, they can and do change.

Most times, though, I acquiesce to their demands and needs because by the point we are so far down that road, they are the corner stone of my life. I know what makes them upset and even if sometimes I can't help myself, I really don't want them hurt. (Its crazy though, because seeing them hurt actually makes me know they like me) Its for this reason, not soley, that I think ESI are so cautious about entering into a relationship. They know the toils and the hoops that will be jumped through.

Watching the "pouty" behaviour in LIE can be enduring and frustrating at the same time. Still the emotional resonances builds and builds between us. Arguments about "rights" occurs a lot. This comes mostly from me. What comes from them are these little "tests" of "if/ do you really love me and you want to be with me?". They never say this stuff. I don't even think its done consciously by them. They might even seem like the dominant one in the relationship from the outside. In truth, though, they are putty. They have almost no emotional skin and can become really hurt.

When they go into self-preservation mode they are hard to open up with Fe, all else in the entire world STOPS until the relationship has been freed up again. They are not "cold" perse, just visibly hurt, like little kids. This isn't a mode that suits them and is a clear sign of stress. They are gamma positivists and they want to be on the good books. So the problem is going to have to be worked out.

I think in these instances the saving grace is the ESI having a firm grasp on where they stand with LIE. "Of course I love you its just.... reason...reason.....I hate....why did....how come....I can't....don't want to....am just so....do you understand....its because....I'm trying... ect" You can act that way all you want its not going to stop the fact that I love you....then believe it or not, the LIE will crack a joke because thats how they break down the ESI armour.

It looks like a curtain being lifted up within LIE, suddenly they are their happy self again and they are joking with you. It's like, they need to know they MADE AN IMPACT on you and to their complete adoration the ESI did not back down from the (in the ESI's mind - nonsense) situation's intensity. This is mobilizing Se. As soon as the
LIE sees this impact, for instance when the ESI finally supplies any type of pressure, whether its a spiked comment, or a raised tone of voice, or a litany of "information" "stop being stupid we are good" then the LIE lightens right up like nothing ever happened.

This "showing weakness with humour and THE RIGHT KIND of vulnerability" relaxes the ESI. And the ESI starts to feel bad about his/her own behaviour (that apparently started all this in the first place?) that started this all in the first place and they make-up. The assertor ESI is totally caught up by the devotee LIE.

Almost like seeing the ESI getting worked up brings the LIE joy.

Complete role reversals all the time. First LIE, then ESI, then LIE, then ESI, then LIE..... luckily they both can bring levity to the situation if one of them recognizes the issues are only minor. IME both like to be honest with one another.

[wacey]

^Of course, this is how I see this erotic attitude extended into other areas.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...-for-beginners

[ENJoymENT]

@wacey Wow your post made me laugh a ton! So F-ing funny--here I am exposing my "covert" creative schemes, &then you respond with "ya when they do this they're pretty transparent...pouty...endearing". I'm not quite sure whether you've ruined me or fixed me! I need to qualify with the fact that this is a long-distance relationship, where sometimes months can pass without meeting, so the stakes of bailing are higher than in a typical situation.

Unfortunately I have never been acquainted with an ESI. However, just from your observations I can see that I could truly evolve as a result of the kinds of interactions you described. For example--calling me out on my schemes in a gentle yet constructive way. Maybe saying "I truly AM just really tired, &I know that cancelling like this will upset you, so pick next Tues, Wed or Thurs &I guarantee I will MORE than make it up to you! I loved your comment that sometimes you just feel the need to stand your ground, consequences and extra hoops be damned. I absolutely agree. What kind of relationship is it if we can't have the freedom to cancel some plans when we choose? For sure I would HATE a spineless "yes m'am" kind of partner!

In truth, though, they are putty. They have almost no emotional skin and can become really hurt.

Shhhh! No really--it is the truth. And it's so humbling because we try to "read the manual" (ie. Socionics!) & tackle this as we do any other task we'd love to master, but you just can't take your Inferior/Suggestive and ever expect to impress or excel. In my example about handling the cancellation, it's like a LIE doing a sport &continuously losing...& therefore throwing the racket across the court exclaiming "fine then I'm not playing!". Haha it IS F-ing funny. But you're right--duality has your back because it's so equally balanced in a tit for tat way, that it forms its own safe, complete, self-generating circle. That vulnerability of the LIE is necessary to, as you said, show how deeply invested our emotions truly are for us to make such a pathetic and immature display.

Regarding your comment "if only you hadn't been so stubborn". The truth is my actions, though perhaps an overreaction, served to empower me. I flipped from the exasperation and inadequacy of Fi, over to Te in order to bring about the esteem I had lost by the rejection. In other words I thought: "Fuck I just "lost" here...how can I squeeze some utility out of this situation &turn it into something positive?" I then proceeded to get a ton of work done there, recharged by taking some additional personal time, and effectively ensured things should go better next time...since he remarked "We can't allow this much time to pass anymore...I wish I had met you when I had the chance". Also I didn't have to lower myself & bitch about anything, I just was a bit distant. More dignified (or so I THOUGHT...before you had clarified that I was transparent)!

Your remark about how LIE will always crack the joke--definitely true! And the reason is because that's our way of saying "oh fuck that was embarrassing...please let's change the subject because we're good!". Even though we'll embarrass ourselves again--because we WANT to be true &authentic, and to invest in allowing you to see and know who we truly are. Thank you for your response, I learned so very much. My apologies for the Gamma rant that wasn't keeping on topic with the theme of Erotic Styles.

[Alomoes]

It's disgusting how relatable I find the aggressive victim description to be.

It is quite horrible, yes. Still, probably the best answer. I'd rather be the carpenter than the walrus.

So. More Gammas? Hi. Damn EIE brother, and damn IEI friend, well, not anymore, ofcourse. Lying all the time. These lies don't help anyone, you know. "I'm not strong", is the current one. You can tell, because I can't do dips without my arm shaking.

Even though most people can't do dips. Yes, I'm going to break the social norms and values. Wait, no I'm not, I'm simply going to describe my worst ones. So the answer is if I'm among friends, 2. If I'm among enemies, 1.

Oh nice. Putin-vs-******030914.jpg

Stupid supervisor relations. Could someone else help me here? Putin is not ****** right? ****** is my supervisor. Keeps me from saying hi to Putin, cause they look alike. I would solve the problem myself, but I need help. Either that, or I'm their supervisor. I don't know.

Oh, and I decided Stalin is my look a like. Venting comeplete.

[Alomoes]

Actually, I've decided this whole system is shit. Transcend the system. Not telling you how.

elsa-einstein.jpg

Duals

Beethoven out.

[wacey]

It was my understanding that in Gamma, the Aggressor has an emotionally stable and healthy trust/belief in their own feelings, as well as in those of their partner. This is due to their strong Fi. It is the ILI and LIE, with their weak Se and Fi, who require continuous reassurance of the authenticity of their partner's feelings.

By challenging the SEE or ESI to repeatedly prove and demonstrate the strength of their feelings, the ILI or LIE ensures their partner is still worthy of receiving their devotion and vulnerability (both physical and emotional). The SEE and the ESI are more than willing to do this, as it falls within their sphere of strength in the relationship--asserting (Se) their feelings (Fi). This Se/Fi demonstration is akin to an ILI or LIE deriving value and esteem from pointing out the most efficient way for their SEE or ESI to accomplish a task.

That Gamma dynamic precisely illuminates the problem I had with the title of "Victim". It is essential to the ILI and LIE not to feel as though they are "giving away" (against their will), their precious physical trust and vulnerable feelings to an unworthy recipient. For comparison's sake, this distinction could be best explained by the difference between benevolently allowing one's Aggressor partner to physically/sexually dominate or benefit within the intimate partnership, versus being raped (truly victimized) by a random stranger. Thus the distinction between Victim and Devotee.

The ILI and LIE harbour an innate fear of being emotionally "fooled". Thus they continually devise creative schemes and obstacles using Ni & Te, in an attempt to trick the SEE or ESI into unknowingly revealing their true feelings and intentions. It sounds deceptive but it is merely a protective mechanism, given the ILI and LIE's deficiencies of emotional savviness, to level the intimate playing field.

I put the following in another thread. I wanted to post it here so that you would see it Enjoyment. I think your post is incredibly accurate and the writing to easily followed. Full props.

Pseudo-Aggressors/Employees: LIE (ENTj) ILI (INTp)

[Even the way the music opens you can just tell its from a socionic victim perspective. He is not answering her calls.....]
I don’t see you laugh
You don’t call me back
But you kiss me when you’re drunk
[Victim confusion]

I don’t know your friends
Don’t know where you’ve been
Why are you the one I want
[More victim confusion, vacillating from indignant anger, to stupefied adoration. A sort of attitude of "why are you not spending your time with me?"

Don’t put your lips up to my mouth and tell me you can’t stay
Don’t slip your hand under my shirt and tell me it’s okay [Ahhh, Jake, don't be like that. She likes you, man.]
Don’t say it doesn’t matter cause it’s gonna matter to me
I can’t be alone with you...
You’ve got me out on the edge every time you call
And I know it would kill me if I fall
I can’t be alone with you
[Gamma romance of rights and dominion between partners, increasing introverted feeling closeness. Petulance when slipping hand under shirt, victim pouting that needs to be overcome by strong, certain feelings by the significant other. Being on edge every time this person calls, they become the whole world, their behaviour making or breaking the victims sentiments. Up and down, roller coaster: "just look at all these things you put me through and yet I can't be without you". Things for the employees do matter, erotically they can become very touchy with their attachments, which suits the employers just fine. ILI and LIE put out these road blocks because they are in CONTINUAL need for reassurance of their partner's authentic feelings. When those actions of their partner's do not line up with the ILI/ LIE expectations of what people should do with each other then it forces them to question the need to be vulnerable and open up to them as a result. This is the points they require demonstrated affectional acts as a way of proving they are loved for real.]

Please don’t chain that door
I can’t win this war
Your body’s like a pill I shouldn’t take
[Equality between partners is a huge theme in semi-victim/ semi-aggressor erotic relationships]

Don’t put your lips up to my mouth and tell me you can’t stay
Don’t slip your hand under my shirt and tell me it’s okay
Don’t say it doesn’t matter cause it’s gonna matter to me
I can’t be alone with you...
You’ve got me out on the edge every time you call
And I know it would kill me if I fall
I can’t be alone with you

Don’t put your lips up to my mouth and tell me you can’t stay
Don’t slip your hand under my shirt and tell me it’s okay
Don’t say you love me cause you know you’re gonna love me and leave
[Mind-frame of "Why even put ourselves through this if you are just going to leave?" It's a victim like tactic, urging the aggressor to stay]

I can’t be alone with you...
You’ve got me out on the edge every time you call
And I know it would kill me if I fall
I can’t be alone with you

I don’t see you laugh
You don’t call me back
But you kiss me when you’re drunk
[Semi-victims, employees, wondering at the lack of demonstrated affection, always on the search for more forceful introverted feeling, to be quested over, to be desired and to be, and this is the BIG IDEA here: to be included. To have that connection, in all ways possible. Otherwise...they are left alone...then what is the point anymore? The drunk kiss is an act of love. When a person is drunk they are at once showing truer, less inhibited affection, open affection and being desired over. It also shows the containment and submissiveness of Gamma aggressors in other parts of life, that for a brief moment is allowed to rest and be completely forthright. The employee is always wanting more of this and so the relationship moves forward two steps, then pauses, then two steps, then pauses while each member gains their bearings.]

[I think this song is very much the victim mentality a person looking for someone to withstand their sensitivity quarks and be sure of their feelings without giving into the victims relational game playing. This look entirely different in Fi valuing people, intuitive thinkers or sensory feelers, then it does in beta couples. Tenderness towards attachments is allowed here and is even encouraged as the ILI/LIE try teasing out how their partner really feels towards them. This process brings them closer together, even if it may look rocky to outsiders.]

These are types who exhibit aggressive tendencies in their everyday life, and as a result tend to carry over these notions and temperaments into their romantic life. They typically are not comfortable with connotations of the word "victim" - implying a certain weakness, effeteness, and lack of dignity. In searching for a partner, they are looking for a worthy opponent - someone who is strong enough to withstand their quirks without "breaking" so to speak.

[carrina]

When i first started learning Socionics i thought these descriptions were bullshit. 2 years in and being an "agressor" is more important to me then Quadra. Earlier I'm like "pfft no, that's utter crap, there's no way I'm an aggressor, and there's no way any of these define me at all." Now I'm like "yo this is some important shit."
The thing is that these descriptions aren't well written. Also when i first started Socionics it was hard for me to even admit to myself that i had even an ounce of pushiness. Basically i was just an unhealthy person who had an unrealistic view of myself. The only reason that i consider that relevant to this topic is that i'd bet allot of people are unaware that they might be disagreeing because of those two reasons: 1. Unrealistic self image 2. Cloudy explanations of what it means.
Having either ni, se, si, or ne in your ego means many things. It also means exactly what the romantic styles were "trying to" frame. Understanding erotic attitudes is like understanding rein dichotomies in that you first have to understand what it *doesn't mean and then start to peice together heart of the issue.
Edited to include more info.
Being an aggressor means you don't like things too come easily you don't like people doing things for you, you want to be competent, and challenges stimulate you into action.
When applied to ni interaction (flirting, post coitus, courtship) it means that a certain amount of insecurity is attractive. (wut?) Or that some vagueness is appreciated, or even if not consciously appreciated, it stimulates interest. Vsgueness might not be the best way to put it. There's a certain aspect to ni, like it can't really be figured out. Every moment it accumulates more context so it's like you can't really completely explain it. There's always something to learn. I'll admit that when ni manifests as vague or unsure, it triggers something inside of me that makes me go crazy. Then i (light my pitchfork) am motivated to understand (conquer; expose) the unknown information (vagueness/insecurity).
Also when someone is easy or really eager it's a turn off. I'll do the pushing ty very much. (I hate be typist but i have to say this) si ego feels so pushy. It's weird. I really don't know how to explain it. It crowds me. I'm usually very uninterested in being persued and if i give *not interested vibes and someone doesn't pick up on that, i get really uncomfortable.
Wow this sounds fuxd up. I should edit this later...

[carrina]

Actually, I've decided this whole system is shit. Transcend the system. Not telling you how.

elsa-einstein.jpg

Duals

Beethoven out.

LMFAO. we have a winner.