View Poll Results: type of Donald Trump?

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108. You may not vote on this poll
  • ILE (ENTp)

    2 1.85%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    1 0.93%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    2 1.85%
  • LII (INTj)

    1 0.93%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    78 72.22%
  • IEI (INFp)

    1 0.93%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    5 4.63%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    1 0.93%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    19 17.59%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    5 4.63%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    1 0.93%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    1 0.93%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    2 1.85%
  • EII (INFj)

    3 2.78%
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Thread: Donald Trump

  1. #721
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    Shaky relationships like the ones Trump has are demonstrative of Fi PoLR.
    Well if you're thinking of SLE, they are quite capable even adapt at making relationships easily, whether these relationships stick around or not is another issue. Fi has many particular aspects. Fi can bridge interpersonal distance and create relationship using many ways (in the case of Ne) as a means of finding the right approach to each person, however relationships isn't the only thing about Fi. For Fi, emotions flow inward. An Fi individual such as myself can get very touchy when someone says something that affects us and then what happens is silence and hurt feelings. You really need someone to be able to read an Fi type in a few ways as to get in touch with them again when they "isolate" you or go into their inner world and are upset. You need someone who says "I see that you're not happy, did I do something." or "Did I do something wrong? Do you want me to fix it?" or "Was it something I did?" In order for the Fi type to say "yes it was this that was done wrong!" We can't just chug up all morals or relationships to be Fi because Fe has ethics too. So guilt (or holding others acceptable by silence) is a means of getting someone to recognize a wrong by my personal ethics. It's a not so nice way of addressing ones concerns or issues but I am an introvert and that's how it was and can still be even though I have practiced using verbal communication to ask for what I want - by this essentially becoming more assertive like my dual @Sol. However one can not escape their own psych. Emotions flow inward for Fi, you can either voice them in a sad way as SEE tend to do when they are hurt or you can shut in and give someone the silent treatment as to tell them you are upset, or you can react, which is what Fi types tend to do quite often. A reaction is still out of one's ethics and morals because it comes from a violation of those ethics that are not always written or voiced in a concise manner to the external world until violated. With SLE, they use Fe to recognize that the person is not happy and they do call them out. However when someone tries to guilt them an SLE may or could make them attack them. They can feel guilt but they don’t want to be guilted by others. For LSE guilt is almost like a motivation for them to do something because LSE have it "their way is the right way" and feeling like their relations is breaking they scramble to make it right. So either you can be yourself, a guilt-er and you can have increasing conflict with SLE or you can be a guilt-er and get stuff done lol with LSE. It's not always easy to see how this works until you meet an EII and then recognize how silent and non talkative they really are. SLE want to build the strongest team so as a leader they may pick the right person for the crew but an SEE may feel bad for the guy, where the SLE won't.

    With Trump, he reacts to people who don't like him. "Like me" no "LOVE me" and when you don't he reacts "but I'm such a great person" These emotions are infantile emotions that stem again out of internal values. The difference between them as SLE and SEE is Fe. Fe types have a "tribe" because they adhere to GROUP VALUES.

    Fi is quite infantile in emotions. It's like the cave man who couldn't find the right way to say "I'm hurt" and instead pouts and walks away. But it does something. In my opinion it's a form of communication, though silently and without much external talking. It is very minute (detailed) in the way it expresses information without words sometimes just with subtleties like eye contact.

    Also it is him wearing his emotions on his sleeves thought the angry tweeting that I find his use of Fi Creative "SEEs are often highly in tune with their emotional responses towards other people, groups, or ideas, and often may be inclined to act on their emotional reactions with minimal restraint. They tend to wear their emotions on their sleeves, and leave little doubt in the minds of others as to the nature of their emotional reactions towards almost anything. "

    I have never seen SLE get so infantile and touchy so consistently at everything and everyone.

    You can recognize an ESTP by his tribes. They have many groups loyal to them, like their crew for the last 12 years, their team in the office. Older ESTP’s, i.e. over 40 years old, also tend to have deeper meaningful relationships (Fe-Ni). Their family too becomes their tribe. -this is all Fe
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 01-05-2019 at 11:52 AM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  2. #722
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sbbds View Post
    I don’t think Socionics writing describes Fi egos as being like this anywhere.
    Kind of does but regardless any type can have shaky relations. Not all Fi egos are angels or saints.

    2nd Function - Fi Fi Introverted ethics

    The ESFp builds any ethical relations from the position of his program function of volitional sensing. That is, it doesn't matter how his relations develop, in any event the SEE must remain the leader. The SEE is deeply convinced that the first and also the last word in the development of relations belongs to him. He is always absolutely confident in his right to check and to control any ethical situation, regardless of the fact whether he has the main or secondary role in it.

    Despite having relatively strong ethical orientation, despite the fact that "ethics of relations" is SEE's strong creative function, it cannot be said so that SEE's ethical relations develop easily and smoothly. To SEE generally nothing comes easily, because he always and everywhere has to conquer. SEE's problem is that he frequently conquers that which no one else has claimed or disputed. Moreover, he has a habit of conquering that which already rightfully belongs to him.

    It seems: what prevents the SEE from simply and naturally receiving his natural attractiveness, charm, ease and freedom in making contact? But in this lies the problem - a constant and general acknowledgement of these qualities is needed to the SEE. Additionally, he needs proof that his superiority has been acknowledged, proof of his unquestionable influence. It is precisely in pursuit of these proofs that the SEE tends to lose all of his "majestic" qualities. Sometimes an impression arises that he is asking for compliments, either by force or by inappropriately "pulling" attention to himself, becoming too engrossed in self-love.

    In the area of ethics, claiming half-victories is not sufficient for the SEE: once he has appeared somewhere, he has to charm everybody, "warm" them up towards himself, interest them, and if needed intrigue them by his person. If there is such a person whom the SEE hasn't interested or positively predisposed towards himself in some manner, it is only because the SEE doesn't take this person into his consideration, for him this person, simply speaking, is an "empty space".

    It is not surprising that with such ethics of behavior the SEE manages to gain numerous enemies (independent of the scale of his activity). Moreover, relations of the type friend-enemy are also built with much contrast and inconsistency: yesterday's enemy is graciously received as a friend today, because "this is how it should be", while today's friend, who has given more attention to another subject, is no longer a friend but a "traitor". (The SEE is perhaps the only type in Gamma quadra who divides his contacts into "enemies" and "friends" - the ESI divides people into "his own" and "strangers", while intuitive logical types don't think about this at all.)

    SEE's ethics is distinguished by certain maximalism because it is subordinate to his "program" volitional sensing (it realizes his base function). It is self-evident that SEE's ethics cannot be consistent: the "realizing" function is always manipulative and always used in service of the "base" function. For SEE his extraverted sensing is the solidly set "program" aspect, while introverted ethics only serves to arrange relationships in accordance with the "program" aspect. Towards those whom SEE respects, and whose consideration he is trying to win over - he has one relation, towards those who are of no value to him - he has another relation. And this forms a problem for SEE, this is the secret of him quickly acquiring enemies and ill-wishers - this mix of ethical inconsistency and maximalism.

    For how long SEE keeps in the phase of friendship or enmity depends only on the concrete situation. Of course, the SEE won't withdraw until he clarifies everything for himself, that is, he won't step back until he is fully convinced that relations have broken down and he has no chance to correct them. (In SEE's understanding, "to correct" means winning over authority once again. It is unimportant how he does this precisely - begs for forgiveness or starts up a scandal: this is nothing more than means "to straighten" situation by any method possible.)

    SEE's ethical side is always relative, due to its manipulative changeable nature, despite his strong ethical attitudes. In some situation, the SEE may become fully aware that he is behaving in a bad manner (moreover, he also knows how he should act instead), but he always finds a "convincing" justifications for his own unethical actions.

    The SEE always notices unethicalness in behavior of others, but he doesn't always condemn or even mention it. To give SEE credit, he is usually able to relate with humor to the ethical imperfections of other people.

    The SEE is constantly vying to expanding his sphere of ethical influence. This type may be viewed as a kind of "ethical aggressor". However, SEE's actions within his sphere of influence are often tumultuous, inconsistent, and often unethical in themselves. His ethical tactics, "trusted" persons, enemies-friends, and the centers of his volitional and ethical influences are constantly changing. The SEE is least of all aware that everything that is happening around him is nothing more than a reaction to his own actions. The more the SEE fusses, the more critical the situation becomes, and the more he loses his strategic orientation points within his relationships. In the end, he becomes totally confused as to who is who for him - and now he is engaged in another ethical battle with people close to him, employing some narrow-gauge "shuttle" diplomacy, and some kind of primitive childish intrigues. It seems like no other type knows how to so "creatively" spoil his relations as does the SEE.

    In any event, no matter how his behavior is evaluated, the SEE sincerely wishes that "everything would be better". He in actuality tries to settle everything so that everyone would be pleased by him, and tries be good for everyone. This position leads to either contradictory actions from SEE's side, or to the absence of any decisive actions, which tends to aggravate his ethical problems.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  3. #723
    a two horned unicorn renegade Troll Nr 007's Avatar
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    There are SLE leaders and Trump is not realy like one. ow me aristocratic beta. I see opportunistic gamma.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

  4. #724
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Troll Nr 007 View Post
    There are SLE leaders and Trump is not realy like one. ow me aristocratic beta. I see opportunistic gamma.


    A few people who voted in the poll have changed their minds and now believe SEE is a better fit. This is why I avoid polls but I went ahead and finally voted in this one since my typing has not changed since I first posted in this thread.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  5. #725
    strrrng's Avatar
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    Used to think SLE, just for general reasons, but it doesn't really hold. They don't play games with Fe the way he does, and have more integrity when they do emotionally engage, disordered or not.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  6. #726
    WinnieW's Avatar
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    It's quite difficult to pin down if he's Fi/Te or Ti/Fe, but it should be obvious that he has 4D Se and 1D Ni.

  7. #727
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinnieW View Post
    It's quite difficult to pin down if he's Fi/Te or Ti/Fe, but it should be obvious that he has 4D Se and 1D Ni.
    definitions?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  8. #728
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Kind of does but regardless any type can have shaky relations. Not all Fi egos are angels or saints.
    that's referred to sketchy ethics that lacks Ti consistency. great quote

    Quote Originally Posted by nefnaf View Post
    Obviously, no normal SEE will ever behave like Trump. He is a con artist who pissed away most of his inherited wealth, and who clearly suffers from Cluster B personality disorder of some kind. Everyone who personally interacts with him on a daily basis seems to hate his guts.

    In terms of sociotype he is SEE, but so pathological that he shouldn't really be used as an example for anything. Normal ILI would probably find him intolerable, despite the relationship being one of duality.
    my mother just watches his actions as any ni type until she's finally pegged his character. she's ili
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  9. #729
    Dalek Caan's Avatar
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    See this is where Socionics fails and where Jung is awesome.

    Trump is most likely a neurotic Se ego with no strong proclivities to either Ti or Fi.
    He's narcissistic and chaotic to the extreme. I mean, most of these arguments are "Trump isn't Ti, so he's Fi or Trump isn't Fi, so he's Ti". And typing someone as Fi valuing when they promote xenophobic messages, put down LBGT acceptance, and create an atmosphere of mistrust and dislike from the people and groups he originally sides with isn't at all a strength of strong Fi types. He shows a complete lack of understanding of another person's internalized feelings.

    But yeah, he does also show a pretty shitty Ti as well, making stupid conclusions and applying reason poorly. So naturally he's going to relate well to the neurotic subtypes - SEE-Se and SLE-Se. And they really aren't good representations of SEEs or SLEs, but reading over that, I see a lot more in the SLE-Se description that fits him.

    SLE-Se Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov (http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=SLE_subtypes)

    Character

    Insistent, energetic, resolute person. While trying to achieve his goals, he acts both directly and through intermediaries. As a rule, he is capable of becoming the winner. Knows how to manage people, can impose on them his wishes and will, to involve and draw them in by useful and interesting projects and tasks. Knows how to be liked and how to please others: charming, possesses a sense of humor, a good conversationalist. Natural leader: needs competition, struggle, passion, victory, without these his vitality wanes. Boredom is his first enemy. An absence of decent employment and application of his abilities makes him quite a difficult partner.
    He is oriented at achieving major concrete goals, but often runs into difficulty when trying to choose them. It takes time for him to get going, he doubts, thinks things over again. But once he makes a choice, he acts swiftly, amping up his pace and not resting until he has realized the conceived. A very resourceful and flexible tactician. Active and operative, in periods of elation his capacity for work is very high. Doesn't like unasked for advice, prefers to make decisions independently. Can hear out his conversation partner, but leave the last word to himself. Doesn't tolerate commanding tone in others. If someone tries to pressure him, he resolutely counters it. In the interest of his business, shows diplomatic abilities, be considerate and courteous.
    Dislikes it very much when others show initiative that seems to be out of place, for example, try to impose something or hurry others - in this case, can do the opposite. Very self-loving and easily offended, but tries to hide it, considering this to be his weakness. Doesn't forgive tactlessness and injustice towards himself. This can provoke a flash of aggression in him.
    Insightful, witty, has a critical turn of mind. When angry shows intolerance towards other people's shortcomings. Knows how to give a brief and succinct description of a person, to ridicule him in presence of strangers, to put him on the spot. Actively asserts his interests, and those of his loved ones. Can create an unfavorable environment for disagreeable people, but for those whom he loves, he tries to provide the necessary comfort, showing care and attention.
    Feels proud of his successes and seeks high valuation of himself. Has a tendency to overestimate his abilities, which leads to arrogance and a wish to teach others. Self-instilled confidence in his own rightness and insufficient self-criticism do not simplify his relations with others. Respects people who are influential and authoritative. Lenient and forgiving towards those who are compliant, soft and vulnerable, in need of help, especially towards children. Often provides them his protection and support. Nonetheless, he is strict, even harsh both at home and at work.
    Very stubborn and demanding. In personal relationships with difficulty adjusts to his partner, as he is rather uncompromising. Using willpower, can make himself subdue feelings to reason. Proud and independent. It is often unpredictable in his actions, depends on the changes in his mood. Changes his interests and his hobbies often, but his affection tries to keep for a long time. Cherishes old friendships, although he usually doesn't show sentimentality in his relationships.
    Strives towards high material level of life. Has a good aesthetic taste, gourmand, cannot deny himself that which gives him pleasure. Bold in sex, but mistrustful of love, afraid of being deceived in his hopes or to get lost in wishful thinking. Quickly grows tired of monotony: he is attracted by psychological games with a partner, when hope interchanges with doubt - in this lies an element of excitement for him.


    Versus


    SEE-Se Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov (http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...e=SEE_subtypes)

    Character


    Has the character of a leader. Self-assured, brave, and active. Flexible in changing his tactics. Orients quickly in a changing situation and adopts creative approaches as events unfold. Energetic and sociable. Knows how to strike up useful contacts. Has difficulty with accurately evaluating abilities and capabilities of people in resolution of concrete tasks, often experiences doubts and hesitation over this, which he prefers not to share with others. Can lead a large team. Resolute in extreme situations and quickly finds means to stabilize the situation.
    Gravitates towards practical activity. Prefers near-lying, concrete goals that bring some tangible benefits. Tries to improve his competence in his occupation, to raise his own profile and prestige and strengthen his position. In the interest of his business can exert strong pressure on his partners, be overly demanding, and perseverant. The victory must always be attributed to him. Despite the scatteredness of his interests, he tries to bring the most important bulk of work or assignments to completion.
    Prefers to have freedom of action. Does not recognize strict regulation and control. Dislikes monotony and routine. Due to his tendency towards irritability, may fall into depression. Quickly grows tired of routine and boredom, then seeks change and new experiences. Active and mobile, tries to be always informed about current events.
    Cautious in new ventures, as he doesn't have a good sense of their prospective future development. Mistrustful of new untested in practice ideas. Strives to understand general patterns and laws that lie behind topics and questions of interest to him, to soberly analyze the situation. Gathers needed information, establishes necessary links, consults with people who are more competent than him. Takes risks only after weighting everything out, but then he acts quickly and decisively. Has strong willpower, endurance, and perseverance in overcoming difficulties, but in the interests of his business is able to agree to temporary compromises.
    Has a complex and problematic character. Demands that others need to reckon with him, to recognize his authority, to respect him for his business and personal qualities. Sensitive to criticism, admits his own mistakes with great difficulty. Feeling offended by someone, does not take advice, may even act the opposite. Very vulnerable and insufficiently self-critical, thus only praises of his merits and abilities can encourage him to activity.
    Emotional, impulsive. Due to rapid changes of moods is unpredictable in his behavior: at times he is artistic and demonstrative, other times he is wary, prickly, and provocative. Passes on his moods to people around him. if he is in high spirits, can infect everyone with his optimism, cheer them up with original antics, and inspire any activity; if he is in a bad mood, he prefers to be alone, or to socialize with people who can give him their attention and sympathies. At such times, he is inclined to over-dramatize events. But can bring himself under control despite his soulful discomfort when he needs to find a way out of a crisis situation.
    Expressive with his feelings. Knows how to deliver compliments. However, for educational purposes, he criticizes more often than he praises, but tries to do it in half-joking manner. As a result of his impressionability, as well as the contradictory nature of his character, it is rare that he achieves an inner balance. Finds it difficult to maintain smooth and stable relationships with other people. In his heart and soul he is a maximalist, and expects more than he can achieve. Thus, he is inclined to often feel disappointed in people who were initially sympathetic to him.

  10. #730
    WinnieW's Avatar
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    The definitions are made to type psychological healty people, which D. Trump obiviously isn't.
    He is very narcissistic and also to some extent anti-social.

  11. #731
    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    See this is where Socionics fails and where Jung is awesome.

    Trump is most likely a neurotic Se ego with no strong proclivities to either Ti or Fi.
    He's narcissistic and chaotic to the extreme. I mean, most of these arguments are "Trump isn't Ti, so he's Fi or Trump isn't Fi, so he's Ti". And typing someone as Fi valuing when they promote xenophobic messages, put down LBGT acceptance, and create an atmosphere of mistrust and dislike from the people and groups he originally sides with isn't at all a strength of strong Fi types. He shows a complete lack of understanding of another person's internalized feelings.

    But yeah, he does also show a pretty shitty Ti as well, making stupid conclusions and applying reason poorly. So naturally he's going to relate well to the neurotic subtypes - SEE-Se and SLE-Se. And they really aren't good representations of SEEs or SLEs, but reading over that, I see a lot more in the SLE-Se description that fits him.
    Are you being serious with the bold part? History teaches us that is not true. Xenophobia happens when others teach children to fear what is different so the belief that Fi valuers or strong Fi cannot have these beliefs is odd to me. Trump is old and there are many in his age group that hold these beliefs. Fi egos and valuers included. Nothing Jung says about Fi leads me to beieve they cannot hold these beliefs but if you find something let me know.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  12. #732
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    He would be surprised at how rude and unkind an unhealthy Fi can really be. And, Fe and any other function for that matter. Functions are just how we process information, not what morals we have. And any function can twist morals if they should choose to do so to justify their actions.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  13. #733
    squark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Please don’t make me go fishing lol. Judging by how long I’ve been doing this I’ve done a lot of fishing around for information (just saying). Trust me it’s out there
    Yeah, no need to fish =) descriptions of what you're referring to have been posted multiple times in this thread alone. Anyone who wants to find it only needs to read the other pages of the thread.

  14. #734
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by squark View Post
    Yeah, no need to fish =) descriptions of what you're referring to have been posted multiple times in this thread alone. Anyone who wants to find it only needs to read the other pages of the thread.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by khcs View Post
    Maggie Haberman - ENTP - Don Quixote

    Sounds right. Her POV is Ti valuing.
    "Talent hits a target no one else can hit; genius hits a target no one else can see." - Schopenhauer

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    Here is one example of SLE leader



    When I listen to SLE politican they tend to have bit different agendas. I could even say that it might align little bit with IEE's aka being champion of something usually of course it is more tribalistic.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.

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    Had to change Maggie Haberman's typing result. It is INTP -Balzac.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Are you being serious with the bold part? History teaches us that is not true. Xenophobia happens when others teach children to fear what is different so the belief that Fi valuers or strong Fi cannot have these beliefs is odd to me. Trump is old and there are many in his age group that hold these beliefs. Fi egos and valuers included. Nothing Jung says about Fi leads me to beieve they cannot hold these beliefs but if you find something let me know.
    well...that's maybe sometimes true for Delta Fi perhaps. But for Gamma it's a bit odd. Also, did you read the profiles? But what I'm saying is this.

    Scenario - https://www.10news.com/news/woman-wi...o-border-fence

    So...this woman scaled the barbed wire fence with her baby. In my mind, I thought man, she's that desperate to climb over a fence with her baby to get out of her country. It must be bad there. I was internalizing her experience without even really knowing her or why she did that. My mom's SLE husband said that she was a bad mother for taking her child like that over the fence and doesn't deserve anything for doing that; that she was just putting the baby in danger. I really thought that was a strange thing to say given the seeming desperation of somebody that does that, but from a Ti perspective, I suppose it's also true.

    so...I agree with you to a degree, but what I'm getting at is Trump seems to completely lack a theory of internalized feeling. I mean can you find anything that he has ever said that has pointed to him having some kind of understanding of people's internal Fi motivations? Everything he concludes and does seems to disregard how people personally feel and subjugate everything to an all-encompassing rule. Such as, everybody uses the gender bathroom they were assigned at birth (complete subjugation of Fi), or we need a wall to divide us from the bad Mexicans (are all or even most them bad though?, Trump doesn't care...), or excluding transgenders from the military because of the potential extra costs. I mean it just goes on and on. I've never heard one thing of Trump that showed he is even capable of asserting an understanding of another's subjective feelings.

    I mean look at this
    https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...ting-nr-px.cnn

    He suggests bringing the death penalty back and making people pay the ultimate price. Arming people in the church and suggesting that we sidestep court proceedings to rush to punish. Where's the Fi? Did he think about the people in the church? The state of the shooter? Why any of it happens? Anything? Nah, he doesn't...how is that Fi?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post


    A few people who voted in the poll have changed their minds and now believe SEE is a better fit. This is why I avoid polls but I went ahead and finally voted in this one since my typing has not changed since I first posted in this thread.
    ...anyone that thinks he has that many friends, probably doesn't have very many...

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    Nancy Pelosi - INFJ - Dostoyevsky


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    Beta absolutism isn't in any way the same thing as the kind of absolute standards Trump employs. The whole point of beta is that they instinctively grasp that transience defines their social structures, and thus have more integrity when it comes to effecting and maintaining them. Trump just rattles off puerile conservatism in a way that's appealing to lemmings precisely because he lacks this awareness, and thus can utilize Fe in a more, shall we say, "varied" way. And I'm not saying that gammas are the ones who turn everything into a wooden placeholder, just that they are more externally anchored than betas in this way, and so when unhealthy will be more likely to do what we see Trump doing than them. Rand is a contrast, in this regard.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    Beta absolutism isn't in any way the same thing as the kind of absolute standards Trump employs. The whole point of beta is that they instinctively grasp that transience defines their social structures, and thus have more integrity when it comes to effecting and maintaining them.
    1. Trump clearly doesn't take his social relationships that seriously. His cabinet can't get away from him fast enough and even his own party is divided when it comes to him...he has to constantly remind people how much everyone likes him...and he's not well-liked by people that have personally dealt with him. For example, I read an account of a pilot for Air Force One that has flown with all the Presidents since Nixon and he says Trump is the only guy that wasn't friendly and was a real asshole, whereas all the President's before him, including Nixon had some kind of charisma or respect for other people...

    2. He's Se leading and pretty neurotic, so although "integrity" is important to SLE-Ti (I've heard the integrity speech from one before...) and probably LSIs as well, SLE-Se are quite a different animal...

    Trump just rattles off puerile conservatism in a way that's appealing to lemmings precisely because he lacks this awareness, and thus can utilize Fe in a more, shall we say, "varied" way.
    There's literally no internalized feeling involved in doing something like that...How is this not his flexible Ti, backed up by Fe?

    I mean, why do people want him to be Gamma? If it made sense, I'd accept it, even though I don't really like it, but the whole idea is conceptually flawed on a basic level. It just seems like people not wanting him in their quadra at this point...

    And I'm not saying that gammas are the ones who turn everything into a wooden placeholder, just that they are more externally anchored than betas in this way, and so when unhealthy will be more likely to do what we see Trump doing than them. Rand is a contrast, in this regard.
    ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post

    A few people who voted in the poll have changed their minds and now believe SEE is a better fit. This is why I avoid polls but I went ahead and finally voted in this one since my typing has not changed since I first posted in this thread.
    here's some Ni
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    1. Trump clearly doesn't take his social relationships that seriously. His cabinet can't get away from him fast enough and even his own party is divided when it comes to him...he has to constantly remind people how much everyone likes him...and he's not well-liked by people that have personally dealt with him. For example, I read an account of a pilot for Air Force One pilot that has flown with all the Presidents since Nixon and he says Trump is the only guy that wasn't friendly and was a real asshole, whereas all the President's before him, including Nixon had some kind of charisma or respect for other people...
    And you think a type that seeks existential and emotional affirmation and guidance from their duals—the type that more or less keeps those currents harnessed for the quadra—would behave this way? IMO it's much more in line with the SEE Fi description @Aylen posted, where because the Fe is strong but unvalued and the Fi strong, valued and blocked with Se, everything effectively becomes a power play, with little lasting regard given to the actual integrity of the situation, which is what NiFe tends to see. In other words, it's a misconception that Fe (and more so beta Fe) means some kind of twisted emotional volatility, where nothing but the most immediate social 'fix' matters...and I'm not saying betas don't have their fair share of fault, in this regard; just that gammas are more "players" than them in the social realm.

    2. He's Se leading and pretty neurotic, so although "integrity" is important to SLE-Ti (I've heard the integrity speech from one before...) and probably LSIs as well, SLE-Se are quite a different animal...
    IME p-sub betas are actually more ingenuous than the j-subs when it comes to this, precisely because they're aristocrats most pronouncedly on the Ni/Se axis...where Ni is, as Gulenko put it, the "integrity of the internal situation." I'm not saying you don't have a point, I just think you're stereotyping betas.

    There's literally no internalized feeling involved in doing something like that...How is this not his flexible Ti, backed up by Fe?
    See what I said above. SEEs use Fi in a very "hands on" way, where if something can be justified in terms of power/leverage and isn't too much of a breach of Se boundaries, it will play. SLEs do play the game, yes; but they adhere to certain rules that all betas get, and thus even if they're fucking around or making a go for something, they aren't quite schemers in the sense you're implying.

    ?
    Well, Rand inspired her fair share of aversion, and definitely had a certain dogma that would seem similar to Trump. But the difference I see, is that she still had more of a "code" or just general template that structured her actions...why do you think she wrote both The Fountainhead and The Romantic Manifesto? Whereas Trump, to me, just seems like, as I said before, a 'player' in that SEE way. The implication I was getting at, is that gammas have more experiential scope than betas in this regard, because they're not shackled by Ti. True, their Te does constrain things to a degree; but external objects as a function pair gives rise to a more open-ended, play-it-as-it-comes way, where the result matters more than the basis of the pursuit.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    And you think a type that seeks existential and emotional affirmation and guidance from their duals—the type that more or less keeps those currents harnessed for the quadra—would behave this way? IMO it's much more in line with the SEE Fi description @Aylen posted, where because the Fe is strong but unvalued and the Fi strong, valued and blocked with Se, everything effectively becomes a power play, with little lasting regard given to the actual integrity of the situation, which is what NiFe tends to see. In other words, it's a misconception that Fe (and more so beta Fe) means some kind of twisted emotional volatility, where nothing but the most immediate social 'fix' matters...and I'm not saying betas don't have their fair share of fault, in this regard; just that gammas are more "players" than them in the social realm.
    So basically, he's SEE because he power plays? And I don't even know what you're saying about emotional affirmation and guidance from a dual...I doubt he listens to very many people, but his own ego. I'd clash instantly with a man like that. He has zero empathy.


    IME p-sub betas are actually more ingenuous than the j-subs when it comes to this, precisely because they're aristocrats most pronouncedly on the Ni/Se axis...where Ni is, as Gulenko put it, the "integrity of the internal situation." I'm not saying you don't have a point, I just think you're stereotyping betas.
    I don't even know what point you're trying to make here other than to say you think I'm stereotyping. And Gulenko is sometimes kind of an idiot.

    See what I said above. SEEs use Fi in a very "hands on" way, where if something can be justified in terms of power/leverage and isn't too much of a breach of Se boundaries, it will play. SLEs do play the game, yes; but they adhere to certain rules that all betas get, and thus even if they're fucking around or making a go for something, they aren't quite schemers in the sense you're implying.
    And I'm the one stereotyping???


    Well, Rand inspired her fair share of aversion, and definitely had a certain dogma that would seem similar to Trump. But the difference I see, is that she still had more of a "code" or just general template that structured her actions...why do you think she wrote both The Fountainhead and The Romantic Manifesto? Whereas Trump, to me, just seems like, as I said before, a 'player' in that SEE way. The implication I was getting at, is that gammas have more experiential scope than betas in this regard, because they're not shackled by Ti. True, their Te does constrain things to a degree; but external objects as a function pair gives rise to a more open-ended, play-it-as-it-comes way, where the result matters more than the basis of the pursuit.
    Rand was probably LSI...so it's kind of moot...

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    Think I'm going to have to take a break from the forum a bit. A sense a huge time waster incoming if I don't remove myself now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    well...that's maybe sometimes true for Delta Fi perhaps. But for Gamma it's a bit odd. Also, did you read the profiles? But what I'm saying is this.

    Scenario - https://www.10news.com/news/woman-wi...o-border-fence

    So...this woman scaled the barbed wire fence with her baby. In my mind, I thought man, she's that desperate to climb over a fence with her baby to get out of her country. It must be bad there. I was internalizing her experience without even really knowing her or why she did that. My mom's SLE husband said that she was a bad mother for taking her child like that over the fence and doesn't deserve anything for doing that; that she was just putting the baby in danger. I really thought that was a strange thing to say given the seeming desperation of somebody that does that, but from a Ti perspective, I suppose it's also true.

    so...I agree with you to a degree, but what I'm getting at is Trump seems to completely lack a theory of internalized feeling. I mean can you find anything that he has ever said that has pointed to him having some kind of understanding of people's internal Fi motivations? Everything he concludes and does seems to disregard how people personally feel and subjugate everything to an all-encompassing rule. Such as, everybody uses the gender bathroom they were assigned at birth (complete subjugation of Fi), or we need a wall to divide us from the bad Mexicans (are all or even most them bad though?, Trump doesn't care...), or excluding transgenders from the military because of the potential extra costs. I mean it just goes on and on. I've never heard one thing of Trump that showed he is even capable of asserting an understanding of another's subjective feelings.

    I mean look at this
    https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/...ting-nr-px.cnn

    He suggests bringing the death penalty back and making people pay the ultimate price. Arming people in the church and suggesting that we sidestep court proceedings to rush to punish. Where's the Fi? Did he think about the people in the church? The state of the shooter? Why any of it happens? Anything? Nah, he doesn't...how is that Fi?
    Fwiw im usually typed Fi lead and I think taking every random stranger's personal blueprint into account is impossible. If you're in a position to affect the lives of millions of people it would be impossible not to fuck a few people over and you could only possibly use your general ethical guidelines as a blueprint, assuming you care at all. Saying that a powerful politician isn't fi ego because some people will be hurt by their policies seems absurd. I don't like trump, ftr.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    So basically, he's SEE because he power plays? And I don't even know what you're saying about emotional affirmation and guidance from a dual...I doubt he listens to very many people, but his own ego. I'd clash instantly with a man like that. He has zero empathy.
    I didn't say he was SEE only because he power plays, read my post closer. I was condensing the gist of their attitude in the context of that description to point out how his motivations were different than SLEs.

    By the bit about "emotional affirmation and guidance," I was referring to SLE-IEI duality, where IEIs emotionally anchor SLEs, precisely so that the power games they do play aren't devoid of meaning. If I were to describe how ILIs complement SEEs in this regard, it would effectively be that their Te gives more direction to the social maneuvers SEEs naturally make.

    And obviously no one likes him, he's a fucking narcissistic sociopath. That's not why I'm typing him non-beta, and I hope it's not why you're typing him SLE.

    I don't even know what point you're trying to make here other than to say you think I'm stereotyping. And Gulenko is sometimes kind of an idiot.
    How was it difficult to understand? I was saying p-sub betas (in my experience) have (or at least manifest) more integrity than j-sub betas, because of the Ni/Se polarization...it breeds a certain existential awareness and thus commitment that j-sub betas don't have to the same degree.

    And I agree that Gulenko is sometimes an idiot, but I think that summation of Ni is spot on for what it's supposed to be. And, as a side note, I hope you can see how I wasn't discounting gammas from having Ni integrity in what I said...Trump is just a very distinct character.

    And I'm the one stereotyping???
    Yeah, me pointing out how you painting SLEs as anti-social power climbers by giving a more thorough expression of their motivations and behavior is so much more me stereotyping than you.


    Rand was probably LSI...so it's kind of moot...
    Whatever
    4w3-5w6-8w7

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    Maybe his possible early stages of alzhemier or dementia has diminished his judgement functions to the point where he is merely left with pure raw to dominate his personality with little trace of and . I am being partly facetious with this statement in case you can't tell btw.

    Anyways, when you look at interviews of him when he is younger, he was easier to type and appeared to be more logical than ethical. I don't care what his type is anymore, his extreme overt narcissism overshadows his type anyways. He also looked like a covert narcissist when he was younger.
    "Nothing happens until the pain of staying the same outweighs the pain of change."

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Fwiw im usually typed Fi lead and I think taking every random stranger's personal blueprint into account is impossible. If you're in a position to affect the lives of millions of people it would be impossible not to fuck a few people over and you could only possibly use your general ethical guidelines as a blueprint, assuming you care at all. Saying that a powerful politician isn't fi ego because some people will be hurt by their policies seems absurd. I don't like trump, ftr.
    ...yeah, but I never said that. I'm saying that he never shows an ability to even do that...

    I keep asking, Where is the Fi? And everybody has something else they want to nitpick about what I'm saying...there own stereotype or something they concluded about a quadra, but where is the Fi?

    I mean look at this https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.aeecba51c4ef

    This was back in Feb 2018 on gun violence in schools...



    It's like a self-help pamphlet for somebody with zero empathy...why does he need a guide to make sure he hits all the right empathetic notes? I bet he's a lot more comfortable in his xenophobic rallies where he can generalize everything with logic and Fe...

    Like omg, I'd be a lot more comfortable if we'd just leave it at Se ego then, instead of misattributing him as Fi. It's just...meh.

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    One of the big highlights of 2018 is my debate with Soupman on the topic of Trump's type. I demolished his points rather easily as he represented the position of Socionics Britannica. Socionics Britannica has failed month after month after month to produce a VI template for each socionics type showing that Trump is SEE. They don't even have VI templates. Stackemup Typology (Socionics-side) aka Socionics New Wave has backed its typing of Trump up with valid VI templates, and for sure my templates are far better than those flawed and dilapidated templates over at socionics.com. It's all right here:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...25#post1262925

    ...SEE makes horrible sense for Trump because it's clear that he doesn't have Fi in his ego block. His people skills are weak since he's high in competitiveness and prefers to move against others. Good people skills would make him high in cooperativeness and give him a preference for moving towards others.

    Furthermore, you are wrongly assuming that Trump is saying what he thinks people want to hear. You will note that he's been saying a lot of the same things for awhile now and likely believes what he espouses. This isn't the first election cycle he ran for president. It just happened that in this election cycle the political winds were blowing in his direction....in the elections he lost your logic would get turned upside down. Your reasoning is superficial because it's merely predicated on the fact he won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post

    This doesn't point toward strong Fi whatsoever. Fi egos have a stronger grasp on who's actually "friend", and there's no way he actually has this many friendships with all these randos, so in aggregate, it doesn't support Fi.

    Rather, it shows that he wants to portray himself as likeable (Fe HA).

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    I didn't say he was SEE only because he power plays, read my post closer. I was condensing the gist of their attitude in the context of that description to point out how his motivations were different than SLEs.
    I know, but all you're saying is your own interpretation of SLE vs SEE. Can we keep it practical and conceptual? I don't even know what context you are referring to or how it would make any sense at all in the structure of socionics theory...

    By the bit about "emotional affirmation and guidance," I was referring to SLE-IEI duality, where IEIs emotionally anchor SLEs, precisely so that the power games they do play aren't devoid of meaning. If I were to describe how ILIs complement SEEs in this regard, it would effectively be that their Te gives more direction to the social maneuvers SEEs naturally make.
    It's just that SEEs aren't ruthless businessmen. You have this crazy notion of power plays and ruthless cunning and it's just not even realistic. I don't know what else to say...

    And obviously no one likes him, he's a fucking narcissistic sociopath. That's not why I'm typing him non-beta, and I hope it's not why you're typing him SLE.
    my god. No, I typed him SLE-Se because he has shit Fi and he fits the description of SLE-Se much better than SEE-Se by Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov. But for the sake of not attributing crappy things to Ti or Fi and giving people the wrong idea about things, I'd be fine if it was left at just Se.

    How was it difficult to understand? I was saying p-sub betas (in my experience) have (or at least manifest) more integrity than j-sub betas, because of the Ni/Se polarization...it breeds a certain existential awareness and thus commitment that j-sub betas don't have to the same degree.
    That doesn't follow logically though. An Se lead that puts a lot of energy into their Se has a dualistic neurotic relationship to their Ni. Their sense of rationality is weak and their sense of irrationality is one-sided. It's a basic Jungian duality that forms the foundation for framing psychological neurosis. Again, I don't know what else to say. I'd have to know what context you are talking about.

    And I agree that Gulenko is sometimes an idiot, but I think that summation of Ni is spot on for what it's supposed to be. And, as a side note, I hope you can see how I wasn't discounting gammas from having Ni integrity in what I said...Trump is just a very distinct character.
    Ni integrity? Huh?

    Yeah, me pointing out how you painting SLEs as anti-social power climbers by giving a more thorough expression of their motivations and behavior is so much more me stereotyping than you.
    No, you've just stereotyped Fi as power plays without rules and shit and said a bunch of other shit that isn't coherent to anyone, but you, you ignored how I even typed him, can't explain how he even has Fi without referencing power plays and rules, and say a bunch of shit in general.

    wtf


    Whatever

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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    This doesn't point toward strong Fi whatsoever. Fi egos have a stronger grasp on who's actually "friend", and there's no way he actually has this many friendships with all these randos, so in aggregate, it doesn't support Fi.

    Rather, it shows that he wants to portray himself as likeable (Fe HA).
    you forget he's an extrovert so he expands energy and everyone loves me so I'm their friend. And, "this guy is my best friend and that guy is my best friend"

    this goes back to what I said "everyone loves me"
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  35. #755
    of the sun Karatos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    you forget he's an extrovert so he expands energy and everyone loves me so I'm their friend. And, "this guy is my best friend and that guy is my best friend"

    this goes back to what I said "everyone loves me"
    What the shit are you talking about?

  36. #756
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    What the shit are you talking about?
    Alright. You have very bad understanding of the functions and I don't know whether you're trying to pick at a fight or not but this is where I draw the line. Have a nice time debating his type with all sorts of misconception that you're using like "he wants to portray himself as likable (Fe HA)." Please revisit the functions. I'm not saying this to be mean just that I have a lot of experience with the functions

    Happy typing.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  37. #757
    of the sun Karatos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    Alright. You have very bad understanding of the functions and I don't know whether you're trying to pick at a fight or not but this is where I draw the line. Have a nice time debating his type with all sorts of misconception that you're using like "he wants to portray himself as likable (Fe HA)." Please revisit the functions. I'm not saying this to be mean just that I have a lot of experience with the functions

    Happy typing.
    I've been studying Jungian material for almost a decade.

    Trump doesn't have strong Fi, because if he did, then his relationships with people would have more solidity and his sense of loyalty wouldn't be so confused.

    Look at his administration. Staff go in and out like it's a revolving door because his attitude towards them lacks stability. This shows a poor grasp of psychological distance, an area where Fi egos are meant to excel.

    Look at his relationships with women, as well. Once again, they lack stability - once he wins over one woman, he's on to the next, employing any number of tactics that would probably make the average Fi ego puke.

    Dude's not an Fi ego.

  38. #758
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dalek Caan View Post
    I know, but all you're saying is your own interpretation of SLE vs SEE. Can we keep it practical and conceptual? I don't even know what context you are referring to or how it would make any sense at all in the structure of socionics theory...
    I already mentioned the description Aylen posted in relation to what I said (which you conveniently ignored), which was quite thorough and in line with what I've been saying on a theoretical level. And as far as I can tell, all you've said is regurgitated, stereotypical bs about SLEs being power mongers and disregarding ethical valuations in their pursuits etc.

    All I was trying to say about SEEs in contrast to SLEs, is that they play the game in a different, somewhat less "balanced" way—not that they're on a perennial power trip and SLEs aren't, just that SLEs are more existentially anchored.

    It's just that SEEs aren't ruthless businessmen. You have this crazy notion of power plays and ruthless cunning and it's just not even realistic. I don't know what else to say...
    This coming from the person who has been painting SLEs in the same way, based on facile stereotypes such as, "Fi polr no interpersonal skills or integrity" and whatnot?

    And again, I wasn't trying to say SEEs are mere cutthroat businessmen; I was just saying that the player/social schemer archetype people have been continually referencing in the thread in both directions fits SEE better than SLE.

    my god. No, I typed him SLE-Se because he has shit Fi and he fits the description of SLE-Se much better than SEE-Se by Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov. But for the sake of not attributing crappy things to Ti or Fi and giving people the wrong idea about things, I'd be fine if it was left at just Se.
    Sure

    That doesn't follow logically though. An Se lead that puts a lot of energy into their Se has a dualistic neurotic relationship to their Ni. Their sense of rationality is weak and their sense of irrationality is one-sided. It's a basic Jungian duality that forms the foundation for framing psychological neurosis. Again, I don't know what else to say. I'd have to know what context you are talking about.
    I'm saying that p-subs are naturally ensconced in that axis, so that while an Se-SLE on a purely cognitive level may not use Ni as dexterously as a Ti-sub, their overall orientation is more Se/Ni than the Ti-sub, and thus their attitude will be anchored accordingly.

    Ni integrity? Huh?
    I was alluding to the Ni awareness that all betas and gammas have, in the sense implied by the Gulenko quote; not using "integrity" in the most general sense of being a good person. IME it's these types who are the easiest for me to just naturally relate to, because of how they pick up on certain nuances and shifts that stem from Ni-based processes.


    No, you've just stereotyped Fi as power plays without rules and shit and said a bunch of other shit that isn't coherent to anyone, but you, you ignored how I even typed him, can't explain how he even has Fi without referencing power plays and rules, and say a bunch of shit in general.

    wtf
    Umm... as far as I can tell, that's exactly what you've done re: him being supposedly Fi-polr or Fe-seeking. I already qualified the power play bit about gamma Fi multiple times and conceded that betas aren't exempt from this element but simply go about it in a different way. You've literally said nothing substantial with regard to his supposed SLEness except that he's callous and emotionally immature in a way that is supposed to comport with generic conceptions of the types.

    I already related how she is SLE in her type thread. Take it up there.
    4w3-5w6-8w7

  39. #759
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Karatos View Post
    I've been studying Jungian material for almost a decade.

    Trump doesn't have strong Fi, because if he did, then his relationships with people would have more solidity and his sense of loyalty wouldn't be so confused.

    Look at his administration. Staff go in and out like it's a revolving door because his attitude towards them lacks stability. This shows a poor grasp of psychological distance, an area where Fi egos are meant to excel.

    Look at his relationships with women, as well. Once again, they lack stability - once he wins over one woman, he's on to the next, employing any number of tactics that would probably make the average Fi ego puke.

    Dude's not an Fi ego.
    a decade only hum lol
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  40. #760
    of the sun Karatos's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    a decade only hum lol
    However long someone studies typology isn't relevant to the veracity of one's argument.

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