View Poll Results: type of Donald Trump?

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  • ILE (ENTp)

    2 1.61%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    1 0.81%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    2 1.61%
  • LII (INTj)

    1 0.81%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    89 71.77%
  • IEI (INFp)

    1 0.81%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    6 4.84%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    1 0.81%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    23 18.55%
  • ILI (INTp)

    1 0.81%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    6 4.84%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    1 0.81%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    1 0.81%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    2 1.61%
  • EII (INFj)

    3 2.42%
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Thread: Donald Trump

  1. #881
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    You said the first statement in this thread I agree with you on. He does value Te. My complete typing of him is SLE-Se which values Te (doesn’t strengthen) more as they shift value emphasis away from Ti. Aso remember business activities aren’t primarily Te (though there is a lot Te), but Se’s volition is very useful as initiative keeps you one step ahead. That being said, Trump wasn’t the most successful businessman (I attribute this to being an unhealthy variant of his type). He does have business acumen, but he always bit off more than he can chew (Unhealthy Se’s ambition). His most successful business activity was self marketing which required him to be very active.

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    another thing I want to mention is that in the video about his apartment and in others interviews he mentions that he doesn't like to shake hands because of germs. in several socionics descriptions I've read that SEE pay a lot of attention to hygiene and cleanliness (gulenko mentions it in his SEE description too). ILI pay a lot of attention to it too, but I've never read about this aspect in SLE.

    https://youtu.be/BAKYvvM6IpE

    @0:35

  3. #883
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    It also seems to me that trump is very interested in interpersonal relationships, which doesn't really fit a type with Fi as vulnerable function.
    This would also fit someone with Fi HA.

    I was also reading over Gulenko's communication styles and for Trump, his seems more cold than something passionate and invigorating like you'd expect from SEE. He puts a lot of emphasis on certain words but you can't really get past the stale tone.

    They understand communication as an exchange of lacking information of explanatory nature. Such communication doesn't lose much if it is carried out only in a written form.

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    youre quoting the cold blooded communication style, which applies to introverted logical types, which trump really doesn't belong to.

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    It applies to ILI, at least that's what it says.

    This group is designated as LP: their Ego blocks contain either structural logic L (Ti) as the first function, or business logic R (Te) as the second function.

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    are there really people on this site that think donald trump is an introvert?

  7. #887
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    My new goal in life is to convince everyone Trump is ILI.


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    This is a lot of work for one troll

  9. #889
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    Quote Originally Posted by toska View Post
    My new goal in life is to convince everyone Trump is ILI.
    That must be the masochist aspect of your EII-ness at work here.
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  10. #890
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    Trump's behaviour does seem to fit my ESTp Uncovered description (although it wasn't him that I had in mind when I wrote it ):

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/unestp.html

    a.k.a I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by toska View Post
    Interesting that he seems to VI as ILI...
    Duals often VI similarily I've found. I've found this to especially be the case with SEIs and ILEs.

  12. #892
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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    This is a lot of work for one troll
    Not trolling, I said from the start that I'm toying with the idea.

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    Interviewer: "You say: I don't do it for the money. Can you explain that?"

    Trump: "Well, I do it because I love it. If I didn't love it, I wouldn't do it. I have bad days, I have good days, I have days somewhere in the middle. But, the end result is: I love what I'm doing, and I don't do it for the money. And I make money because, probably, I'm not doing it for the money. I do it, and I do it well. I'm the biggest developer in New York. I love building buildings. I have a lot of fun building buildings. The fact is, I do it for fun, I do it for game, I do it for sport; I happen to make a lot of money doing it. If I didn't enjoy it, if I didn't really love what I'm doing, I wouldn't be successful, I wouldn't be sitting with you today."

    Interviewer: "What's the implication of that, for someone watching this, who wants to create greater wealth? What's the message in that, do you think?"

    Trump: "Well, the message is: you have to love what you do. If you do it for the money alone, it's probably not going to work. I have friends, where I tell them, get out of this business, which is a good business, and go into another business, which isn't as good a business, because they like the other business better. They'll do better in a less-good business, so to speak, than they will in the better business, because they like it."

    Trump: "Going against the tide is great, if it works. Now, it doesn't always work, and you really have to be smart to go against the tide, because you're going against a lot of smart people. But when you get it right, you'll end up better, whether it's Microsoft or Google. I mean, so many people that have really hit big have gone against the tide. But you have to have great confidence in yourself, you have to be the right person. There are very few people that can pull it off, but when you pull it off, it's great. Same thing in real estate; you go against the tide, people are selling, you're buying, the tide changes."

    Trump: "Never, ever give up. Just keep going forward; never stop. It may seem like you have no chance, it may seem like it's over. Never, ever quit. If you're a quitter, I hope you quit right now, and stop watching immediately, because you'll never make it."

    Trump:"I think that, without a certain innate intelligence, and without a certain drive, you're not going to be successful."

    Trump: "I've always believed in positive thinking. At the same time, I don't want to mislead, I also believe in aspiring, in terms of what you're doing, aspiring to protect against the down-side. You can't just be this wonderful guy, walking around, everything's positive, because, unfortunately, that's not the way the world is. I love to tell people to think about the challenges, so that when they do come along, you're ready."

    He's clearly process-oriented which rules out SLE. There's also +Ni riddled throughout the motivation he speaks to here but he doesn't really get into it much. -Fi is also clear in how he separates good from evil, positive from negative. Demonizing the media, pinning them against him. I do see this mentality he has of winners and losers, champions and quitters which is very type 8. Se is becoming more clear to me as well in this way. He seems tough minded to some extent, constantly thinking of ways to counteract the force acted upon him. Rule 3, go against the tide. Rule 6, protect against the downside. Rule 7, be able to handle pressure. I hadn't considered this but it could be that I'm seeing people project -Se onto him when he's really valuing +Se and that's why he rejects when people paint him as this controlling authority. After reading Gulenko's description of Dominant SEE, I'm beginning to lean in that direction a bit more.
    Last edited by toska; 10-12-2019 at 07:40 PM.

  14. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Armalite View Post
    Duals often VI similarily I've found. I've found this to especially be the case with SEIs and ILEs.
    You're right. I was just comparing VI with SEE-Fi. That's interesting. I do notice that most VI's tend to have at least one other type that VI's basically the same.


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    Oh we want to whip out function charges, that makes things easier.

    Se- is very eager is obtain results (Result version of Se). It sees an opportunity and wants to immediately pounce on it. Donald Trump life can be summarized with those two sentences. This is why he seems to have a variety of ambitions. If he sees potential, he must try an actualize it. Whether that be casinos, real estate, show business, or capitalizing on the emotional state of the country. He wants to be constantly winning. If he was Se+, his initiatives would seem to have a lot more focus (the thing I love about my SEE duals). A good example of a SLE would be a very successful British youtuber KSI. He started in youtube, but wanted to “conquer” music, but then he saw an opportunity in getting sucess in doing boxing. SLE’s always are throwing themselves into the mix, while letting their wit and business logic guide them through the chaos.

    The problem with Se- is that it’s jumpy nature is more likely to poke holes in their “empire” then Se+. What I mean by that SLE empires require more effort to maintain it than SEE empires while SLE’s are more likely succeed in obtaining an empire in first place. For example, Alexander the Great (a definite SLE) was obsessed with winning so much and expanding so much that (obtaining results) that after he died at a young age his empire fell through civil wars because he wasn’t really governing. Another example of this Genghis Khan. Another very good example is Connor Gregor. He wasn’t focused enough on being unbeatable, as he was more interesting on dominating different spheres. Meanwhile Floyd Mayweather (ESFp) only interest was being the best in boxing and he obtained an “empire” that couldn’t be pressured into collapsed. I would also like to note Floyd Mayweatherls main boxing skill was a brilliant defense (which requires the mindset to withstand pressure without crumbling, Se+). He may not have been successful in another combat sport, but that didn’t matter to him. There are so many examples, but the main takeaway that Se- wants always be winning while Se+ wants to be a winner. If you want to be poetic, Se- wants to be a conqueror while Se+ wants to be a king.

    Donald Trump fits the mold of a conqueror of many spheres (result Se) than a king with an absolute hold on his assets who slowly (slower than a SLE) builds his treasury (process Se). Again, look at his business empire. He had faced many debt issues due to over diversity. Trump’s businesses now survive primarily on brand recognitions. Many big businesses benefit from brand recognition; so much so that it has book value for accountants (it’s technical name is goodwill). Other businesses see the value and purchase the brand name for a limited or indefinite period in order to add value to their products. However, a business should not be surviving on goodwill alone and goes towards the faulty empire talk earlier. Meanwhile a SEE (Richard Branson) founded business in Virgin Group Ltd. made sure that it was a slow build with the guidance of their SEE CEO, making sure it took care of debts and bankruptcies in a proper manner instead of just trying to power through (as it is all about the process for him).

    Long story short, I know my dual and Trump is not my dual. If this isn’t satisfying consult the SEE vs SLE I made earlier in this thread.

    Dang I let off more than I wanted to, but I couldn’t let beginners get confused by bad theory.

  16. #896
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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    Why r u retyping urself ili
    Ya know, cuz, things. I know things. Lots of things. I know better than others type of things. I know the best things. I know how to tell you when you are wrong and I am right when it comes to things.

    I am a lone wolf (except when it comes to my mate, then I need a partner to howl with since I am too introverted to do it alone). I am open for business SEEs. I will make one of you a president using only my intuition and great advice. I will be quietly brooding in a corner the rest of the time, contemplating the nature of our existence, until you need my guidance about "things".

    Did I mention I own things? A house, a car, a business. No mortgage. No car payments. I have investments. I don't panic sell. I can foresee (with my third eye) which stocks will do well long term. I stick to safer investments. I don't squander all of my inheritance.

    I know how to look up stuff on The Google then use them facts most creatively, while simultaneously relying on my imagination to put it all together so I can drive it home. Not only that I can also comprehend and analyze what I have read with my 4D Ti backing my 3D Te. I can discern fact from fiction using all the knowledge stored in my big brain, unlike those silly IEI with their useless Fe. What do they know anyway? Dismiss them bitches back to their own private lalalands.

    Oh and I can read books. I love books. I have the best books. Let me tell you about it. I have over 1000 physical books on my bookshelves and in boxes. Thousands more on my tablets and pc. Not just any books either. I have so many classics. I got the best classics. I have occult books too. They are the best occult books. The kind only an ILI would read.

    I was reading Shakespeare when other kids were still looking at picture books. I was in the gifted programs. I have an above average IQ or so the people in labcoats told me. Not a genius like DJT, of course.

    Did I mention I went to tech school? I can fix my own computer. I can fix your computer. You need it fixed? I got you!

    Amazing huh?! I am Te creative af! I don't need others to show me the facts , thank you very much.


    Need I go on or are we good?

    I am sorry to leave beta but I am too damn ILI. I also don't want to be accused of having "not my dual" "not my quadra" syndrome. I am choosing to accept The Donald as my dual, as an ILI.

    I am also 5w4 now. Deal with that too! It doesn't mean I am now LII. Beta didn't appreciate me when they had me. I am jumping ship. Gonna find myself an SEE and make him president some day. Just you wait and SEE!


    Hah, I am being a bit of a factitious little twit because... this thread. I got sucked back in. lol Someone said above he is a caricature of Se. I have said he is a caricature of SLE. BUT, with further analysis he does not fit the profile and the profile doesn't fit him as well as SEE does. I feel like only a handful of us see beyond the fake man's man, tough, practical, businesslike, persona he has cultivated as an entertainer.

    I think he is too "sugary" when he speaks about Putin and others. He is pouring that sugar on them like he has a major man crush and wants to be just like them when he grows up. Putin is much more ST to me. I know sol types Putin ILI.

    DJT is a performer. He loves the spotlight and he loves to be showered with love and affection in public. He also loves giving it back to his fan base. He isn't Fi or Fe polr. I just can't put across in words what I see right.

    I find SLE are usually not that open to that kind of thing except by someone they are into or someone they respect. The are not that emotionally expressive. They are expressive but it is different. They don't whine and complain about how others hurt their feelings and how it is all so unfair like DJT.

    I am tired now. I may say something more later since I am trying out this new thing, on forum, which is to talk about the theory more. I don't want us to end up with more posts on incels than typology.

    Anyway, don't mind me. Beta quadra can't get rid of me that easy. If anyone was offended by my ILI imitation, lol, don't take "things" too serious. I was not spoofing anyone specific.


    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  17. #897
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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    Dang I let off more than I wanted to, but I couldn’t let beginners get confused by bad theory.
    With ad hominem like that, Trump would be proud. I'm just taking notes based on his expression. You seem more focused on his actions, how he's handled his business and ventures. We're clearly looking at different things. You say you know your dual while you're trying to pin him as my conflict. I'm not going to try and pick apart your argument, I see good points in it. There's always different angles to look at things, it just depends how you frame it. If that weren't the case, typing would be easy. I haven't read through this whole thread. I'm sure the image he has of himself doesn't perfectly align with who he is just as his actions don't always align with his motivations. To my prior interpretation, +Se wants to retain power (pressure from top on bottom) and -Se wants to take power (pressure from bottom to top). But yeah, I'll read your post on SEE vs SLE.

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    I'm just going to say what I think and whether anyone cares to read this or finds it wrong, okay.

    Trump is often very brutal and blunt before all else. He has a history of getting rid of people and/or pushing them away when they are no longer useful to him or when they threaten him in some way. He seems to lack empathy for individuals or see them as such (although he's very good at appealing to ideas of group or categorical morality on some abstract level -> Fe/Ti) and needs constant assurance that people are loyal to him because of it; and when they stop being useful to him in some way or they threaten him, he dumps and denounces them without much care. He seems to naturally lack the kind of sensitivity of higher order Fi, a function that is both abstract and implied, neither of which he seems to understand very much when he demands constant assurance of loyalties and thinks it's okay to be a douche to people if they are of no value to him. His Te is essentially utilitarian and he doesn't seem to care much for the individual that's impacted by his decisions; and he's only loyal to someone if they serve his purpose, yet he demands unwavering loyalty from others.

    I think he uses Se, Te, and Fe a lot and seems to have no problem compartmentalizing everyone into categories and dealing with them that way -> Ti. But he doesn't seem to value separating people from their categories and thinking about them as individuals. It's not really his proclivity, although I'm sure there are instances of him trying to make a good pre-conceived effort to do so (which is arguably a super-ego thing to do), but when he's threatened or under pressure, he has no problem putting people into political categories and fueling the political charge. I guess what I'm saying is, I could probably make a case for him as SEE by cherry-picking parts of the theory that fit, finding reasons why he can't be SLE, and pulling things he's done or said out of context to paint his behavior a certain way, but in the end is that truly compelling? I mean he may not fit a caricature of a self-composed SLE that thinks everything through in calculated logical detail, but both SEE and SLE have neurotic Se and would be impulsive and not think things through all that much by the nature of their implied neurosis. So it kind of seems an irrelevant thing to constantly point out and argue.

  19. #899
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Ya know, cuz, things. I know things. Lots of things. I know better than others type of things. I know the best things. I know how to tell you when you are wrong and I am right when it comes to things.

    I am a lone wolf (except when it comes to my mate, then I need a partner to howl with since I am too introverted to do it alone). I am open for business SEEs. I will make one of you a president using only my intuition and great advice. I will be quietly brooding in a corner the rest of the time, contemplating the nature of our existence, until you need my guidance about "things".

    Did I mention I own things? A house, a car, a business. No mortgage. No car payments. I have investments. I don't panic sell. I can foresee (with my third eye) which stocks will do well long term. I stick to safer investments. I don't squander all of my inheritance.

    I know how to look up stuff on The Google then use them facts most creatively, while simultaneously relying on my imagination to put it all together so I can drive it home. Not only that I can also comprehend and analyze what I have read with my 4D Ti backing my 3D Te. I can discern fact from fiction using all the knowledge stored in my big brain, unlike those silly IEI with their useless Fe. What do they know anyway? Dismiss them bitches back to their own private lalalands.

    Oh and I can read books. I love books. I have the best books. Let me tell you about it. I have over 1000 physical books on my bookshelves and in boxes. Thousands more on my tablets and pc. Not just any books either. I have so many classics. I got the best classics. I have occult books too. They are the best occult books. The kind only an ILI would read.

    I was reading Shakespeare when other kids were still looking at picture books. I was in the gifted programs. I have an above average IQ or so the people in labcoats told me. Not a genius like DJT, of course.

    Did I mention I went to tech school? I can fix my own computer. I can fix your computer. You need it fixed? I got you!

    Amazing huh?! I am Te creative af! I don't need others to show me the facts , thank you very much.


    Need I go on or are we good?

    I am sorry to leave beta but I am too damn ILI. I also don't want to be accused of having "not my dual" "not my quadra" syndrome. I am choosing to accept The Donald as my dual, as an ILI.

    I am also 5w4 now. Deal with that too! It doesn't mean I am now LII. Beta didn't appreciate me when they had me. I am jumping ship. Gonna find myself an SEE and make him president some day. Just you wait and SEE!


    Hah, I am being a bit of a factitious little twit because... this thread. I got sucked back in. lol Someone said above he is a caricature of Se. I have said he is a caricature of SLE. BUT, with further analysis he does not fit the profile and the profile doesn't fit him as well as SEE does. I feel like only a handful of us see beyond the fake man's man, tough, practical, businesslike, persona he has cultivated as an entertainer.

    I think he is too "sugary" when he speaks about Putin and others. He is pouring that sugar on them like he has a major man crush and wants to be just like them when he grows up. Putin is much more ST to me. I know sol types Putin ILI.

    DJT is a performer. He loves the spotlight and he loves to be showered with love and affection in public. He also loves giving it back to his fan base. He isn't Fi or Fe polr. I just can't put across in words what I see right.

    I find SLE are usually not that open to that kind of thing except by someone they are into or someone they respect. The are not that emotionally expressive. They are expressive but it is different. They don't whine and complain about how others hurt their feelings and how it is all so unfair like DJT.

    I am tired now. I may say something more later since I am trying out this new thing, on forum, which is to talk about the theory more. I don't want us to end up with more posts on incels than typology.

    Anyway, don't mind me. Beta quadra can't get rid of me that easy. If anyone was offended by my ILI imitation, lol, don't take "things" too serious. I was not spoofing anyone specific.

    excellent?

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoodoo View Post
    excellent?
    Reminds me, I meant to compliment you on the effort you put into typing the Simpsons based on the two charts.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



  21. #901
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    Oh...heh. My ego says thanks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Ya know, cuz, things. I know things. Lots of things. I know better than others type of things. I know the best things. I know how to tell you when you are wrong and I am right when it comes to things.

    I am a lone wolf (except when it comes to my mate, then I need a partner to howl with since I am too introverted to do it alone). I am open for business SEEs. I will make one of you a president using only my intuition and great advice. I will be quietly brooding in a corner the rest of the time, contemplating the nature of our existence, until you need my guidance about "things".

    Did I mention I own things? A house, a car, a business. No mortgage. No car payments. I have investments. I don't panic sell. I can foresee (with my third eye) which stocks will do well long term. I stick to safer investments. I don't squander all of my inheritance.

    I know how to look up stuff on The Google then use them facts most creatively, while simultaneously relying on my imagination to put it all together so I can drive it home. Not only that I can also comprehend and analyze what I have read with my 4D Ti backing my 3D Te. I can discern fact from fiction using all the knowledge stored in my big brain, unlike those silly IEI with their useless Fe. What do they know anyway? Dismiss them bitches back to their own private lalalands.

    Oh and I can read books. I love books. I have the best books. Let me tell you about it. I have over 1000 physical books on my bookshelves and in boxes. Thousands more on my tablets and pc. Not just any books either. I have so many classics. I got the best classics. I have occult books too. They are the best occult books. The kind only an ILI would read.

    I was reading Shakespeare when other kids were still looking at picture books. I was in the gifted programs. I have an above average IQ or so the people in labcoats told me. Not a genius like DJT, of course.

    Did I mention I went to tech school? I can fix my own computer. I can fix your computer. You need it fixed? I got you!

    Amazing huh?! I am Te creative af! I don't need others to show me the facts , thank you very much.


    Need I go on or are we good?

    I am sorry to leave beta but I am too damn ILI. I also don't want to be accused of having "not my dual" "not my quadra" syndrome. I am choosing to accept The Donald as my dual, as an ILI.

    I am also 5w4 now. Deal with that too! It doesn't mean I am now LII. Beta didn't appreciate me when they had me. I am jumping ship. Gonna find myself an SEE and make him president some day. Just you wait and SEE!


    Hah, I am being a bit of a factitious little twit because... this thread. I got sucked back in. lol Someone said above he is a caricature of Se. I have said he is a caricature of SLE. BUT, with further analysis he does not fit the profile and the profile doesn't fit him as well as SEE does. I feel like only a handful of us see beyond the fake man's man, tough, practical, businesslike, persona he has cultivated as an entertainer.

    I think he is too "sugary" when he speaks about Putin and others. He is pouring that sugar on them like he has a major man crush and wants to be just like them when he grows up. Putin is much more ST to me. I know sol types Putin ILI.

    DJT is a performer. He loves the spotlight and he loves to be showered with love and affection in public. He also loves giving it back to his fan base. He isn't Fi or Fe polr. I just can't put across in words what I see right.

    I find SLE are usually not that open to that kind of thing except by someone they are into or someone they respect. The are not that emotionally expressive. They are expressive but it is different. They don't whine and complain about how others hurt their feelings and how it is all so unfair like DJT.

    I am tired now. I may say something more later since I am trying out this new thing, on forum, which is to talk about the theory more. I don't want us to end up with more posts on incels than typology.

    Anyway, don't mind me. Beta quadra can't get rid of me that easy. If anyone was offended by my ILI imitation, lol, don't take "things" too serious. I was not spoofing anyone specific.

    Uhmmm ok

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    Quote Originally Posted by MegaDoodoo View Post
    I'm just going to say what I think and whether anyone cares to read this or finds it wrong, okay.

    Trump is often very brutal and blunt before all else. He has a history of getting rid of people and/or pushing them away when they are no longer useful to him or when they threaten him in some way. He seems to lack empathy for individuals or see them as such (although he's very good at appealing to ideas of group or categorical morality on some abstract level -> Fe/Ti) and needs constant assurance that people are loyal to him because of it; and when they stop being useful to him in some way or they threaten him, he dumps and denounces them without much care. He seems to naturally lack the kind of sensitivity of higher order Fi, a function that is both abstract and implied, neither of which he seems to understand very much when he demands constant assurance of loyalties and thinks it's okay to be a douche to people if they are of no value to him. His Te is essentially utilitarian and he doesn't seem to care much for the individual that's impacted by his decisions; and he's only loyal to someone if they serve his purpose, yet he demands unwavering loyalty from others.

    I think he uses Se, Te, and Fe a lot and seems to have no problem compartmentalizing everyone into categories and dealing with them that way -> Ti. But he doesn't seem to value separating people from their categories and thinking about them as individuals. It's not really his proclivity, although I'm sure there are instances of him trying to make a good pre-conceived effort to do so (which is arguably a super-ego thing to do), but when he's threatened or under pressure, he has no problem putting people into political categories and fueling the political charge. I guess what I'm saying is, I could probably make a case for him as SEE by cherry-picking parts of the theory that fit, finding reasons why he can't be SLE, and pulling things he's done or said out of context to paint his behavior a certain way, but in the end is that truly compelling? I mean he may not fit a caricature of a self-composed SLE that thinks everything through in calculated logical detail, but both SEE and SLE have neurotic Se and would be impulsive and not think things through all that much by the nature of their implied neurosis. So it kind of seems an irrelevant thing to constantly point out and argue.
    I think if you look further back in this thread you will see some well thought out arguments made for SEE, even by those who originally voted SLE. Once you vote you can't take it back. Their's are much better than mine.

    Speaking of cherry picking. There are a couple cherries here that most people that type him SLE are picking. The main ones being SLE are the brutal and blunt type and that anyone with Fi in the ego couldn't possibly behave in such a way because of Fi. You are guilty of the same subjectivity that we all are. The whole point of the forum is to discuss theory so it is to be expected. You can go to any other thread and find the same kind of cherry picking based on personal understanding of the theory. It's not a bad thing. FTR, I gave SLE a lot of consideration before deciding SEE is a better fit even though SEE was my first impression. I don't even hate Trump although it could be taken that way. I just think he is in over his head. This has happened to him in business as well which is why he was constantly being sued.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I think if you look further back in this thread you will see some well thought out arguments made for SEE, even by those who originally voted SLE. Once you vote you can't take it back. Their's are much better than mine.

    Speaking of cherry picking. There are a couple cherries here that most people that type him SLE are picking. The main ones being SLE are the brutal and blunt type and that anyone with Fi in the ego couldn't possibly behave in such a way because of Fi. You are guilty of the same subjectivity that we all are. The whole point of the forum is to discuss theory so it is to be expected. You can go to any other thread and find the same kind of cherry picking based on personal understanding of the theory. It's not a bad thing. FTR, I gave SLE a lot of consideration before deciding SEE is a better fit even though SEE was my first impression. I don't even hate Trump although it could be taken that way. I just think he is in over his head. This has happened to him in business as well which is why he was constantly being sued.
    Yup, ppl dont seem to realize that the bluntness n shit comes from Se, and that the Fi is only in the creative spot

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    This forum does get interesting at times. It is just a question of whether that is a good thing or not. I won't talk about the hypocrisy of calling people out for ad hominem arguments or whimsical posts as I don't wanna take away people's fun. Hope you guys figure it out or get the answer you're looking for or have the fun that you're looking for. Laters.
    Last edited by Investigator; 10-13-2019 at 01:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    This forum does get interesting at times. It is just a question of whether that is a good thing or not. I won't talk about the hypocrisy of calling people out for ad hominem arguments or whimsical posts as I don't wanna take away people's fun. Hope you guys figure it out or get the answer you're looking for or have the fun that you're looking for. Laters.
    If you are talking about my "whimsical" post, it was made to make a point. The facts mentioned are all true. I do own what I said I own. I have investments and was taught by two ILI what to do and what not to do when it comes to investing. I have a large personal library in my home and more in digital format. I have tested, in a clinical setting, with a higher than average IQ (about a dozen points short of genius which I believe is >140 so nothing to brag about). I was in gifted classes. I went to tech school and graduated top of my class. If I filled out a questionnaire on this forum stating only those few facts about myself I wonder what I would be typed.

    I don't know everything and I am willing to admit it. I don't like being talked down to because I happen to relate more to a type that is supposedly weak with logic and values Fe. I have no interest in making anyone president.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If you are talking about my "whimsical" post, it was made to make a point. The facts mentioned are all true. I do own what I said I own. I have investments and was taught by two ILI what to do and what not to do when it comes to investing. I have a large personal library in my home and more in digital format. I have tested, in a clinical setting, with a higher than average IQ (about a dozen points short of genius which I believe is >140 so nothing to brag about). I was in gifted classes. I went to tech school and graduated top of my class. If I filled out a questionnaire on this forum stating only those few facts about myself I wonder what I would be typed.

    I don't know everything and I am willing to admit it. I don't like being talked down to because I happen to relate more to a type that is supposedly weak with logic and values Fe. I have no interest in making anyone president.
    based on your profile picture alone I thought you're an EIE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    based on your profile picture alone I thought you're an EIE.
    That one vote on IEI for donald trump is from u

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    based on your profile picture alone I thought you're an EIE.
    Cool, close enough. I am very high on introversion and not so high on Fe which is why it doesn't work. Those who know me here know I don't have the Fe to be EIE. I mostly get typed IEI-Ni or IEI-H. I did get D from a couple people. That is really flattering. I can relate pretty well to Gulenko's EIE-H due to interests he mentions in it. Not sure how many here have read it. I got it in pdf from someone who did the translation. I relate to the IEI > ILI > EIE.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    That one vote on IEI for donald trump is from u
    I never noticed that IEI vote in the poll. Must have blocked it out. heh

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I never noticed that IEI vote in the poll. Must have blocked it out. heh
    Intuitionz

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I did get D from a couple people. That is really flattering
    Giggty

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    maybe one short thing I want to add is that I think Hillary Clinton is an SLE, and thinking back to the election now, there are some differences in how both handled the campaigns. I think the advantage that trump had was that he really knew what his voters wanted to hear. he knew exactly what he had to say to get a certain reaction (indicating strong Fi to me), while Hillary, as an aristrocratic beta type, probably already thought that she would win.

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    Quote Originally Posted by soundofconfusion View Post
    maybe one short thing I want to add is that I think Hillary Clinton is an SLE, and thinking back to the election now, there are some differences in how both handled the campaigns. I think the advantage that trump had was that he really knew what his voters wanted to hear. he knew exactly what he had to say to get a certain reaction (indicating strong Fi to me), while Hillary, as an aristrocratic beta type, probably already thought that she would win.
    I think she might be LIE but idk

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    I'll just categorically state this

    1) Donald Trump is an LIE
    2) Ivana is an SEE
    3) Melania is an ESI
    4) Don Jr. is an SEE
    5) Ivanka is an ILI
    6) Eric is an LII
    7) Lara is an EII

    8) Hillary Clinton is an ILI

    It seems really obvious that LIE's like Joe Rogan (talking about gorillas), Penn Jillette (Bullshit!), 50 Cent (Get Rich or Die Tryin'), Tucker Max (I Hope They Serve Beer in Hell), Quentin Tarantino (Kill Bill), etc. have aggressive visual imaginations in the action-sequencing hand-planning circuits of the Right Dorsolateral Prefrontal Cortex and the Right Lateral Frontopolar and that's what is responsible for their ability to plan things. Trump's main body language is to stand still and draw pictures quickly with his hands within a square symmetrical framework in front of his chest. Apparently, in order to force visual information into the imagination buffer LIE's use what Trump calls Hyperbole because exaggeration releases Dopamine.

    https://braintypes.com/fcil/
    Last edited by hatchback176; 10-13-2019 at 04:54 AM. Reason: Added Hillary Clinton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I think if you look further back in this thread you will see some well thought out arguments made for SEE, even by those who originally voted SLE. Once you vote you can't take it back. Their's are much better than mine.

    Speaking of cherry picking. There are a couple cherries here that most people that type him SLE are picking. The main ones being SLE are the brutal and blunt type and that anyone with Fi in the ego couldn't possibly behave in such a way because of Fi. You are guilty of the same subjectivity that we all are. The whole point of the forum is to discuss theory so it is to be expected. You can go to any other thread and find the same kind of cherry picking based on personal understanding of the theory. It's not a bad thing. FTR, I gave SLE a lot of consideration before deciding SEE is a better fit even though SEE was my first impression. I don't even hate Trump although it could be taken that way. I just think he is in over his head. This has happened to him in business as well which is why he was constantly being sued.
    Well okay. And I know I'm being subjective to a degree. This kind of thing is unavoidable, probably, and I didn't mean to imply that I'm not. So sorry for that, but there's something off about an SEE typing that kind of frustrates me too that people don't see. But about the brutal and blunt thing, fair enough.

    I guess my main issue really with this whole thing isn't the argument for SEE or SLE, but how masterfully Trump categorizes people into certain groups and then he deals with them that way. It has been the center-piece of his campaign strategy to create these divisions and put people into camps in order to deal with them and it's not something I've gotten from SEEs. Its an aristocratic thinking that I've recognized from SLEs and that's mainly what feels so off about an SEE typing, not to say that you won't find an SLE typing off for other reasons. SLEs are supposedly aristocratic according to reinin and it's something I've found true as well.

    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Aristocratic
    Aristocratic Types (bolding for emphasis on what I think stands out most about him) *Note: the forum formatting sucks, so this is going to be hard to read, despite my efforts


    • Inclined to perceive and define themselves, and others, through groups they belong to; however, such groups are perceived and defined by the Aristocrats themselves, not necessarily accepting those groupings as defined by others or by social conventions.

    Ergo, him seeing illegal Mexicans as mostly rapist and criminals when statistically that isn't the case.
    Ergo,
    (https://www.scmp.com/news/world/unit...ld-trump-tells) US President Donald Trump was accused of being racist and divisive by many Democrats after suggesting that four female Democratic lawmakers, led by Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez of New York, should return to the “broken and crime infested places from which they came”.
    Three of the four women Trump was apparently referencing were born in the US; none is white.

    Like really Trump?
    Or blasting all the news media outlets he doesn't like as fake news. Trumps loves putting people into categories he defines on his own whim, if it suits him. How is that not a kind of at least creative subjective thinking?

    • Their initial attitude to another person is influenced by their attitude to the group they see the person as belonging to.


    Yes, initial. He has no problem backtracking later and trying to cover his track after people get riled up by it.

    • Tend to attribute common qualities to members of their circles of contacts, and define such circles by those same qualities.


    Probably why he praises other world leaders so much. He said this about Xi Jinping (https://www.scmp.com/news/china/dipl...nd-xi-liked-it)
    “President Xi, who is a strong man, I call him ‘king’,” Trump said in a wide-ranging speech at Tuesday’s dinner. “He said, ‘But I am not king, I am president.’ I said, ‘No, you are president for life, and therefore you are king.’ He said, ‘Huh … huh.’ He liked that. I call him ‘king’. I get along with him great.”
    He seems to like Xi Jinping's status as a strong man and a President for life, but nothing about who he is as a person.

    Or take one of Trump's meetings with Kim Jong Un (https://thehill.com/hilltv/rising/40...-and-appalling)
    Trump praised Kim at a campaign rally on Saturday, saying that he and the North Korean leader "fell in love."
    "I was really being tough and so was he," Trump said. "And we would go back and forth. And then we fell in love. No really. He wrote me beautiful letters."
    "They were great letters. And then we fell in love," he continued.

    It could sound like Fi, but Trump never really says anything about him as a person, just that they got along. I think he just likes strong leaders because that's what he thinks he is or something.



    • Inclined to use expressions that generalize group features.


    When doesn't he do this?

    vs

    Democratic Types (bolding for emphasis on what doesn't stand out about him)


    • Perceive and define themselves, and others, primarily through individual/personal qualities: interesting, pleasant, unpleasant, good-looking, etc, not in connection to any group they may belong to.


    He says personal things sometimes about people, but it's usually stuff like this
    "So now they are after the legendary “crime buster” and greatest Mayor in the history of NYC, Rudy Giuliani. He may seem a little rough around the edges sometimes, but he is also a great guy and wonderful lawyer. Such a one sided Witch Hunt going on in USA. Deep State. Shameful!"

    First makes notion of his lawyer title "crime buster", then that he's a mayor, all aristocratic stuff. Then finally that he's rough around the edges sometimes, but a great guy. But it never has any bearing on Trump's definition of himself or his identity.


    • Form their relationships/attitudes toward other persons based on the latter's own individual characteristics, not with base on their relationships to groups of any kind, nor on their relationships to representatives of such groups.


    As noted above in the aristocratic part, Trump usually praises people's status in talking about and relating with them.

    • Not inclined to perceive their acquaintances as representatives of a certain "circle of contacts" that supposedly possesses qualities inherent to people of that circle


    Not really sure about this one, since we don't get much news about acquaintances I guess.

    • Not inclined to use expressions that generalize group features.


    Well he has no problem doing that.


    Isn't this a pretty big discrepancy? He's not even really in between on this one. He's far aristocratic. And SEE is democratic.
    Last edited by MegaDoodoo; 10-13-2019 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Investigator View Post
    This forum does get interesting at times. It is just a question of whether that is a good thing or not. I won't talk about the hypocrisy of calling people out for ad hominem arguments or whimsical posts as I don't wanna take away people's fun. Hope you guys figure it out or get the answer you're looking for or have the fun that you're looking for. Laters.

    bye

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    Okay, I'm hooked. This is kind of fascinating to me. So here's

    Reinin Dichotomies (SLE vs SEE)
    Emotive (SEE) / Constructivist (SLE) - http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?title=Constructivist
    http://wikisocion.net/en/index.php?t...in_dichotomies


    I took these from Reinin. I tried to use the examples lsited, rather than the generalized dichotomies because I think generalizations can be misleading.


    Constructivists(SLE): "I try to reduce emotional contact. I always start with a set of automatic responses (give slippers, pour some tea or coffee...)" "If somebody has come for a shoulder to cry on I generally know what to do" "It is so much easier to come into contact over some objective matter (interaction by pertaining to the matter at hand)" "I prefer when people offer me concrete solutions to my problems—it is better than consolations" "If I wish to help, then of course by action. Very rarely I call just to inquire how things are going. I track moods in parallel" "I listen to music depending on my mood" "I will re-read the whole book for specific paragraphs... What does it mean "poorly written"? It stirs me—that's what's important" "I drive over to the same place, it's as if I'm visiting my home" "I try not to see movies that I know are emotionally heavy. I won't watch them over again most certainly" "I can worry for people for a long time, even those whom I casually met" "The first time you watch a comedy is to laugh—after that it's to relive these experiences".


    Emotivist (SEE): "First of all, I attempt to create a comfortable psychological atmosphere. I try to direct new people into the situation, "build bridges", help them "accommodate" so that they feel at ease" "I strike up new contacts with words, not actions" "If emotional atmosphere of an interaction is negative I consider the conversation "wasted" (unsuccessful)" "Before a dialogue I as if check the emotional states of people involved and try to positively orient them" "It's easier to change the emotional background" "I can talk about various things that I don't believe in or have no interest in simply "for the spirit" of the conversation" "I need new experiences so I am likely to visit a new place. If I return, then I return to a place where "the road has changed" since I last visited" "I won't watch a movie that was poorly directed. Poorly written book doesn't stir and involve me" "I'll re-read a book if I have forgotten the storyline" "If I'm asked to consider/do something what I'll most remember is the act of request itself".


    I don't think Trump is good orientating people's emotional states or striking up people to build psychological bridges and such. His relations are shaky and he does often seem to have a purpose in mind for the people in his relations. So SLE here


    positivist (SEE)/negativist (SLE)


    Positivists: "At first I trust people, distrust needs to be substantiated" "I always believe in a positive outcome. I will most likely talk about positives. I don't issue warnings of possible failures—why bring people down, may be everything will be ok" "It irritates me when people talk only of character flaws and inadequacies in others" "I try not to give instructions on avoidance or failure" "When giving instructions I avoid giving orders like "Don't do it! Don't go!" "Even negative experience can be positive" "I start off by trusting people and then work from there."


    Negativists: "My first reaction to everything is "no!" whatever it might be" "I don't speak of the positives" "One must take into account all the negative aspects. It goes without saying that people are capable of anything" "If the mood is too good - something is not right" "In my instructions I always give people "negative" orientation points. I foresee all the negative moments and try to make provisions for them" "People in general are good, but it's better to keep your distance from them" "When I was authoring a textbook, I constructed my proofs "by method of contradiction"" "Most often I bring bad news" "When asked "How's it going?" I answer "Not well." "How am I going to entertain myself? Certainly I wouldn't go to a restaurant, neither a casino ... but somewhere out to nature..." "There will be a building there, but that's not what you're looking for. After that you will see a street, but don't take it, continue on your path. Go around the building and don't use the first two entrances."


    Trump often demands loyalty. I don't think he trusts people as a positivist. He often issues warnings and omens, not very positive. He talks a lot of other people's character flaws. And he loves giving orders. Don't see positivist there either. He seems to like giving criticism and has no problem saying no. He often focuses on the negatives of other people's decisions. I think negativist fits better here too. So SLE here






    asking (SEE) / declaring (SLE)


    Askers: "Is there more then one way? Yes" (The person has fully repeated the question they were asked) "Where to begin? Well, what would you like to know? Yesterday I went..." (The response to a question "what did you do yesterday" is with a series of questions practically removing the significance of giving an answer)


    Declarers: "When people list their interests I don't understand whether it is with the intention to pursue the interests or what?" (The question sounds like a statement) Declarer: Will you be there? Asker: Who? I? Very well.


    Trump's twitter comments are usually very categorical and declarative. His questions almost always imply a direct answer. So SLE




    Obstinate (SEE) / Yielding (SLE)


    Compliant: "Affairs can be yours and those of other people who can compel you with their requests" "Interests that cannot be realized eventually become uninteresting. I let go of old interests easily" "I try to limit my affairs, how many things I'm involved with, how many things I am suppose to do. Potentially this is interesting to me but I will not undertake it" "If I know that I can't do something, I will reject it and will forget about it" "If I have an interest, it is, naturally, reflected by capabilities. If something is impossible I won't go wasting my time and effort on it." "I don't understand people who list all kinds of interests... personally I clearly know what my capabilities are"


    Obstinate: "I never let go of my favorite occupations. I will do them at expense of sleep, food..." "I certainly won't abandon it.... I'm inclined to squeeze the situation to the very end" "I can't let go of my interests out of fear of destruction and loss of my personality" "My interests are at the limits of my physical capabilities. When my physical capabilities show me their limits—I back away, but I will do this only as a very last resort... but even then I will not abandon them but "postpone" them and await the moment when I have sufficient resources. I won't let go of my interests, even though the resources are already insufficient..."


    Heh, I could see obstinate here for Trump though. That does seem like him much more. So SEE




    result (SLE) / process (SEE)


    Right/process: "Finishing something is not easy, it us also not easy to start something, but the most difficult thing is to return to the middle of something I've abandoned long time ago" "I read the book to the end of the chapter and a several pages into the next chapter... the thought of something coming to an end is frightening." "God forbid that I start a game of solitaire, I will "hang" with it for a long time (regarding a computer game)" "It is difficult to force myself to undertake a task, but afterwards it just rolls forward by itself."


    Left/result: "The matter at hand must be known. If estimations are not final, they must at least be intermediate." "It is very interesting for me to start or complete a matter... I like visualizing a finished project or task." "The most horrible thing is when something just won't end." "I feel like a juggler; in my hands—several activities (processes). I am aware of two points—the beginning and the end." "Why can't you simultaneously listen and eat?"

    I probably don't really understand this, but probably process (SEE)




    Merry (SLE) / Objectivists (SEE)


    Merry/Subjectivists: "Fun is a lot of emotion... company of friends, where we can exchange news, possibly go have something to eat, sing a song" "Fun is getting involved, when you actively participate. When you watch or read something, this is educational, but fun is an active state of constant excitement, something one cannot confuse with leisure (restful state)... perhaps fun for me is an animated dialogue that (as opposed to a fight, quarrel, etc.) is pleasant" "Reading books, opera - this is not fun... fun is heightened vitality" "Fun is a state of liberation when everyone is not being very serious" "Fun is pleasure, recklessness, everyone participates, some boundaries may get crossed" "If I'm in a company of new people and nobody introduces me, for me it is not a problem to introduce myself" "The majority of people with whom I chat, I may not know their full name" "The process of coming into contact can consist of any steps, becoming acquainted is not necessary" "For me, in company, the names of others are not important" "I remembered what his name was only after a week, even though we had already passionately kissed (about meeting her future husband)" "When I see that someone doing something wrong, I first have to check if that is any of my business. If it concerns me, then my first reaction is to step back and let him have enough... I have my own criteria for how things should be. Other people may have their own criteria" "First, put down the axe, then explain why you are doing that" "I assumed that I have said all that was relevant to the given theme/topic"


    Serious/Objectivists: "It is difficult for me to distinguish work activities apart from fun. Fun is difficult to define ..." "I approach everything seriously, even rest" "It is always possible to find something entertaining/zany in the serious, and vice versa" "Studying should be fun. Work without an entertaining element is impossible" "What constitutes "fun" to me is not clear, what is leisure - that is clear, what is entertainment - that is also clear" "It is important that I get introduced when I'm in company of people I never met before, or better yet, that they have been told a little about myself" "I engage another person on conditions that he/she has proposed, I do not engage the person if I do not know whether the contact will be "pleasant" for him/her" "I do not like it when other people "thrust" themselves upon me or when it is done to others, for example, if suddenly my aunt whom I'm seeing for the first time starts calling me "honey" or use some other endearing expression" "The name is important. If a person does not state their name, it often means that they do not want to have a conversation" "If it is done the wrong way? Oy! It is easier for me to grab it and do it myself than to waste my time explaining. In my opinion there is only one way to "hammer a nail"" "There are things with which it is clear that some methods are futile/fruitless and that there are more effective ways of doing it. It's very irritating when a person consistently fails to see this and keeps choosing inappropriate methods" "When I see something performed ineffectively it makes my stomach churn" "It is painful for me to see something that contradicts common sense and I can do nothing about it. If I can interfere with the situation, I will do so regardless of whether or not it concerns me" "The methods habitual to the person within the framework of his/her experience are not the same thing as objective method of doing things (this is evident by the results)".


    I'm not sure. I can see aspects of both. I was curious about personal accounts about him now, so I went to quora...https://www.quora.com/What-is-it-lik...rump-in-person


    There's gold like this in there


    "Someone I know golfed with Trump at a charity event. Apparently the Donald was cheating rather blatantly, and was called out.

    When asked to stop cheating, Trump responded:

    “I cheat on my taxes, I cheat on my wives, and I cheat at Golf. Get used to it.”

    Trump then smiled broadly, and kept cheating."




    or this (https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=yqhIY2S3SSw)


    to this
    "I can tell you this: as a con-man, I'm sure his impression in person is a lot more respectful and trustworthy than he really is. That's what makes him a good con man. Many businessmen in NYC know that about him. But what you see in the TV video clips of him in his speeches and interviews, he is really 99% driven by his ego and inability to admit to anything less than his personal perfection. It has been shown in by many in studies that he is a flagrant and compulsive liar. He is very thin-skinned (because of his ego). He is a dangerous individual in a position of power. His ego prevents him from believing he doesn't know everything, and therefore it prevents him from opening his mind to learn how the world really works. For example, his belief that climate change is a Chinese hoax.


    Before you just dismiss me as another disgruntled Hillary-lover, I am not. Look around you (figuratively). There is a tremendous number of protests against him, there are very many high-profile public figures that openly criticize him, not just his policies, but his very ability to be a competent leader. My local high-school students even staged a walk-out protest during school hours, even though they knew there would be punishment. No other president in the last century has so many detractors (yes, there are always a few, but this is unprecedented.)
    The author of his book, who spent a great deal of time with him, admits that the guy was a bit crazy and unhinged. The producers and many others who worked for his Apprentice show also admit to pretty much the same.
    He is greatly flawed as a leader. But he is a good con-man, and a good con-man knows how to make a good impression. It's what they do."


    So serious type (SEE) here.


    So imo, he's
    objectivist (SEE)
    Aristocrat (SLE)
    process (SEE)
    obstinate (SEE)
    constructivist (SLE)
    negativist (SLE)
    declaring (SLE)

    So I don't know now. I see too many conflicting aspects of both types. He's a bit of an enigma and now I'm wondering how much of his personality is a persona.

    //shit, I couldn't turn it off without delving further. I am process type?

  39. #919
    Number 9 large's Avatar
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    Its easier to just think 7 vs 3

  40. #920
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    Mega, you might like reading the full Reinin type descriptions too. The book is somewhere on this forum. Love your enthusiasm.

    Check out this link for more.

    http://isra-trainings.com/reinin/socionbook.html

    I am not going to highlight anything that supports one type or another here since I no longer want to argue it.

    SLE (Zhukov)

    The sensory-logical extrovert - Zhukov (Se,Ti)

    Function #1- objective sensing (Se): the principle of existence: “I am active, therefore I exist”. His life’s principles are constancy of the external form, confidence in his appearance and actions. Those who criticize ESTp's actions may experience his aggression.

    They are workaholics in the full sense of the word. An ESTp just can’t sit still. They are active even when they should be still in the given circumstances. Socionists have a joke: "Can a Zhukov be quiet for 10 minutes in a company of friends? If he is quiet, then he is either mute, sick, or has passed out ... "

    A working ESTp gives all of himself to a business, never sparing his energy. It is an authoritative, strong-willed type of person able to make others submit. He can also obey himself when working in structured environments (army service, etc.).

    The habit of taking responsibility upon themselves makes ESTps irreplaceable in management. However, they rarely make it to the top due to their excessive bluntness and straightforwardness. But notice, that just like the ENTp they will step forward during periods of real danger in the history of humanity (eg Winston Churchill, Margaret Thatcher).

    The ESTp is reliable. If there is no movement, no activity going on, he will find it or create it; he is a magnet for situations where he is needed. These people constitute a rather strong social type.

    Similar to ESFps, two people of this type hardly ever get along when life brings them together. It is normal because they are both take initiatives. It is only in relationships within strictly defined hierarchies (army, etc.) or in a master-student type of relationships that they may get along a little better for a period of time.

    Function #-1 – subjective sensing (Si): health is in the area of ignoring. An ESTp has a "farmer's attitude" in health issues: "I shall plough the field until I drop dead in my furrow." When the ESTp falls sick, having spent his strengths in fervent activity, does he allow others to take care of him. Only when they are burnt out they might agree to take some time off at a resort or a hospital. People of this type should remember this, because people are not indestructible; they are not sources of endless energy. However, they should not stay away from work completely. An ESTp needs to learn to control this area of life. Not all of them are capable of doing that.

    ESTp is not a picky eater: he expects food to be plentiful and filling, it should not be some sophisticated food, but it should be fresh and esthetically pleasing.

    Function #2 – subjective logic (Ti): his since for dialectics is in the creative area, he is able to consider an object, a situation, an event from several points of view, he can explain any phenomenon in several different ways. SLE is not conservative here. A Don Quixote having generated an idea hardly ever implements it in real life. A Zhukov, having the same creative function, comes up with an idea and then brings it about, i.e. Zhukov gives an idea a chance to live. For example, Sergei Korolev (a Zhukov) and Konstantin Tsiolkovsky (a Don Quixote) – they both dreamed to see humankind go into space. Korolev dared to finish the project under completely fantastic, inhuman conditions; and he became in his own way happy.

    Function #-2 – objective logic (Te): the logic of the external world is in the zone of standards. This type picks out the laws that they follow automatically, without a hint of creativity. In this area a Zhukov does not like to waste time on decision-making.

    Function #3 – objective ethics (Fe): a Zhukov’s principle of self-esteem is as follows: “People need me, therefore I am good”. Other people’s assessment of him is the basis of his good or bad attitude to himself. It is very important: when, in what situations the person gets positive feedback through the third function. If SLE is needed, he gets constant 'refills' of energy. In his relationships he is focused on himself: “I am the hub of the universe.” Incidentally these two types (a Don Quixote and a Zhukov) have personal and public interests in consent. A Zhukov's cunning "friends" frequently use this trait for their purposes.

    A Zhukov has to be needed ("important"); otherwise he gets sick and spends all of his colossal energy on medical treatment, seriously aggravating the situation.

    Function #-3 – subjective ethics (Fi): the problem is solved when SLE changes his attitude to an object or a person. It is important to have clarity and definiteness. When a Don Quixote faces a conflict in a relationship; he tries to smooth it out. A Zhukov in similar circumstances is more determined. It is easier for him to avoid the difficult person than to live with tension of uncertainty. Both kinds of behavior are inadequate, however, he gets the result, which comforts him: the situation becomes simpler in both cases; he pushes the problem out of his life. A Zhukov has a radical approach to the problem: if there is no relationship then there is no problem.

    Function #4 – subjective intuition (Ni): “I want the world to be in harmony and beautiful. I want to feel good so do something”. A Zhukov’s thirst for inner peace is the biggest than any others’. He does not know how to manage his own feelings. He needs external influence to have a change of mood. Therefore he resorts to common means of changing the mood: alcohol, drugs. Some of them get into verbal fights. This is a very interesting channel of suggestion because this type is usually at the top and we run into them in bureaucratic structures. They are difficult to be around because they have hard time managing their moods and emotions, they are unpredictable.

    Function #-4 – objective intuition (Ne): here he has the fear of integrity of external situation. Integrity of circumstances is subconsciously rejected. He detests situations when everything is known from beginning to end. A Zhukov has a peculiar vision of time. “What do you mean I have to follow a schedule? What if I feel like working around the clock? Why are you putting me in the rigid frames of a schedule? I do not care about your office hours. If I feel like working, I will keep work”. It is not a surprise that the military talent of marshal Zhukov revealed itself to its fullest in circumstances where the course of events changed abruptly, in situations of a break-through, or an attack, where emergency decisions, deviance from the ordinary schedule, abrupt changes in tactics were necessary. A Zhukov can simultaneously supervise (and be involved in) several situations at the same time, switching from one to another at a snap.
    SEE (Napoleon)

    The sensory-ethical extrovert – Napoleon (Se,Fi)

    Function #1 – objective sensing (Se): action, deed, appearance are in his zone of confidence. SEE is a person of actions. He/she has the following principles of existence: “I am active, therefore I exist” and “I do not need anyone to teach me, I know what I am supposed to do”. Often this type does something before he thinks. Military proverbs like “First engage the enemy, then see what happens” and “The war reveals the plan” are very characteristic of a Napoleon's approach to the dichotomy planning vs. action. Their hands move faster than their heads think: they are people of action who accept responsibility for the consequences. This is an important professional quality of leaders of any rank. A Napoleon is an authoritative and even autocrative leader: “We discussed it and I have decided…” In spite of his democratic friendships joint leadership is obviously not his style. Remember how quickly the Directory was done away with when Bonaparte came to power? This type is confident in the stability of their external form, their appearance and their own actions. They do not have any problems in this area: “How do I look today? I look good! I look the way I want to look.”

    A Napoleon walks unremarkably, conservatively; he does not care about appearances. Everything concerning forms is in his zone of confidence. When criticized a Napoleon may get angry. He does not take into consideration other people’s advice in this area.
    A Napoleon is a man of action. He is weighed down when he cannot do anything. What is a Napoleon like when he is retired? He withers away, gets ill, he whines and feels miserable. They have to do something, anything; if nothing else they walk. If your child is a Napoleon, do not put pressure on him/her in the area of the first and third functions, do not discipline them unless you have to, but best do not correct them at all just for the sake of your own comfort.

    Unlike a Zhukov’s, a Napoleon’s personal interests hardly ever coincide with the public ones. In anything he does a Napoleon puts his personal interests first, especially financial. They are rather thrifty; they use money well, though they are not as scrupulous as a Gaben. A Napoleon tries to spend money sparingly, believes that one good turn deserves another. In general restless activity and a craving for practice characterize a Napoleon.

    Function #-1 – subjective sensing (Si): his health is in the zone of ignoring. He often burns out at his place of work because they do not want to properly take care of their health in time. He does not like talking about health issues. Usually a Napoleon uses simple treatment, a quick fix like aspirin. I made a choice, I took it in, and it is enough. Often just like a Zhukov he uses a hill-belly’s approach to health: “I hope I’ll get away with it”, “I will plow till I drop dead.” Until he drops dead he works hard and often the reason of his death is an unexpected sickness, because due to his carelessness the sickness was neglected. A Napoleon does not like being touched, especially by strangers. This trait is so characteristic of them that may be used for diagnosing the type.

    Function #2 – subjective ethics (Fi): the area of creativity covers his attitude to the world, to people, to objects, his opinion on any subject. First of all here is his emotional risk. A Napoleon is a leader because he easily expresses his attitude to actions or people. He seeks a position of leadership because there his opinion will matter.

    Since this is the creative function, both negative and positive poles are easily accessible to him. A Napoleon can just look at his troops and say: “Soldiers, I love you!” There are ten thousand people; does he love them all? The fact is they know he really does love them, and they trust him, and they follow him. Demonstration of his attitude is art; therefore it takes special circumstances that facilitate the maximum self-expression. Is there a better position for self-expression than a position of leadership? “I am the boss, you are the fool. When you are the boss, I will be the fool.” Therefore it is natural for a Napoleon to aim at positions where his creative function may find its realization. If you are late for work, your boss – a Napoleon – may reprimand you harshly, even rudely. But in five minutes he will come to you as a matter of factly to discuss business as if nothing had happened. He just vented his anger, no big deal. It was just a part of the routine! A Napoleon does not dwell on it, unlike a Don Quixote who is hurting over offending someone for several days. This type often uses words "shame", "disaster", "I hate it", "I like it", "fantastic", "great". A Napoleon may fruitfully work in the heat of the conflict. Often he intentionally creates a situation of a conflict to draw out reliable information, a plan of attack.

    A Napoleon is a good politician, in a dialogue he is able to easily find rapport and talk about the opponent’s problems, but he never forgets about his own goals. He produces an illusionary impression that he really cares about other people's problems. A Napoleon is loved despite of his boldness, people trust him, they vote for him hoping he will change things for the better.

    Function #-2 – objective ethics (Fe): the zone of standards. A Napoleon maintains certain standards in external relationships, rarely becoming close with people. He prefers to keep people at a distance, he does not make friends in the office (command, platoon, etc.); there is a distance, a uniform, a business talk within the framework of the rules of rank. They often do not have close friends in a large crowd of associates and acquaintances.

    Relationships fall in the sphere of "unnecessary". At times a Napoleon wanting to express his personal attitude does not take into consideration neither circumstance, nor people’s personal or group space. A Napoleon easily becomes a part of a group and just as easily he pulls it apart. Some people of this type sincerely do not realize how tactless they are. Sometimes you can witness a situation: a Napoleon approaches a talking couple and as a matter of factly interrupts and addresses the person he needs to talk to; – the thing is, approaches them without second thought, says something, disrupting the space of the dialogue, takes care of his business, while the other partner takes off. A Napoleon may get in trouble for doing that especially if he is a child in school.

    Function #3 – objective logic (Te): the place of self-estimation is first of all personal territory. We know that each person tries to simplify the situation according to the third function. For example, “When I have conquered the world, then it will be clear where is my territory and where is not”. Napoleon Bonaparte and Alexander the Great entertained similar ideas. This is a simplification of a situation. This is an example of an extreme case, of course. But in any case the person of this type needs to know precisely the boundaries of his territory, where he is the emperor, the master and the owner. I have noticed once that at the Aeroflot ticket booths half of the cashier ladies belonged to this type. Each had a tiny office with a ticket window, and that was her territory that gave her the freedom to vent her opinion to the people in line. Every cashier lady felt like she was the god of the air, and that showed. In general, the size of the territory does not make a difference; a Napoleon acts like a dictator whether he is a street sweeper or a president of a large country.

    For a Napoleon “my territory” does not only mean land or space, it may also be social territory – “my people”. When a Napoleon comes to power, first of all he/she puts “his/her people” in key positions. Their professionalism is less important than their loyalty. An employee of a Napoleon will sooner get in trouble for lack of loyalty than for his failures. For a Napoleon the external order is very important. He/she might reprimand an employee not for a mistake at work but for being late to the office – because it disrupts the order and makes people doubt the boss' (a Napoleon) ability to control the situation. In this case being late becomes almost a treachery. A Napoleon's third function gets a major negative feedback when the order of his territory is disrupted.

    On the other hand, a Napoleon takes good care of “his people”, remembers their problems, and forgives their weakness. I know a Napoleon who, being the director of a large garage personally has been congratulating each employee on his or her birthdays for many years. As a result workers never left the company, although the boss is very strict, demanding and authoritative. Not unlike Bonaparte himself who was said to know all his old time soldiers by name – more than ten thousand!

    Starting a business, a Napoleon should have a precise definition of his/her functions: “I should do this and this only”. Otherwise the business will never run. If you have an employee of this type, you should give him a clear goal with well-defined functions and fixed responsibility, otherwise the job will never be done. Instead you will listen endless stories about the objective circumstances that were in the way.

    Even as a little boy a Napoleon should have his own space, his territory. He would rather have the confidence that the territory is his, than have it clean and tidy. When his mom makes him pick up his toys he might obey, but still feel like he is losing the territory and the next day there will be a mess again, and this will go on forever unless he is disciplined in love. The reproof gives wisdom: but a child left to himself brings his mother to shame. Naturally a Napoleon wants to be left to himself; naturally the mother falsely hopes that he will clean up his mess without being reminded. A Napoleon motivates his disobedience by the need to feel secure in knowing that this 1,5 square meter belongs to him.

    Two representatives of this type on one territory – is a sight to behold! There is only room for hierarchical relationships, otherwise there will be a conflict or one of them will drive out the other.

    A Napoleon is a born leader; however, if a territory does not interest him/her and he/she is not planning on conquering it, his/her behavior drastically changes. A Napoleon remains invisible, not talkative and still.

    Function #-3 – subjective logic (Ti): problem-solving area. When faced with objective problems (financial, technical, technological, etc.), this type leans on the opinion of experts, statistics, authoritative sources, etc. A Napoleons pays attention to weighty opinions of those people whose intelligence they consider to be above their own. When in a leadership position a Napoleon always has clever, competent advisers (for example, Dr. Velikhov (a Balzac) for Gorbachev (a Napoleon)). Unique experts are treated with awe and respect; unpardonable things are often forgiven to the unique specialists.

    Function #4 – subjective intuition (Ni): suggestible function. SEE's integrity of internal situation is his mood. An example: you need your boss – a Napoleon – to sign some papers. He has a choice to either sign it or not. What can you do to influence his choice? The best way to influence his mood, is to ask a person of his complementing type to take the papers to the boss, he/she would have more chances signing it for you. But if you don’t have a choice, then put on the air of good spirits and go ahead. Strange as it may seem, but in this particular area a Napoleon is easily suggested. It has been proven that a Napoleon has to be in a positive mood to achieve results. If a SEE boss is in a good mood, he may sign the paper even without looking.

    A SEE makes decisions easily, but he has hard time changing his/her mood. He can only dream about a Hamlet’s talent of switching moods. This type is always looking for new ways to change a mood. When coping with negative feelings a Napoleon may choose to drink, while making excuses that other people do this too. It is common for a person to judge others by his own measure. In 1980's in Russia a campaign against alcohol started. A lot of finest vineyards were cut down all through the country. Why was the president so zealous with this? Mikhail Gorbachev - a Napoleon - was aware of the fact that alcohol has the power to change people’s mood. He thought alcohol to be bad, therefore he fought it.

    Anyway, when a Napoleon is aware that he can easily be inspired by the mood of others he/she should not allow others to use this trait to their advantage. It is not an easy job, by the way, it takes patience and focusing on the area of mood.

    Function #4 is the channel of manipulative influences. A Napoleon's intuition is poorly differentiated. He has a hard time speaking about his premonitions and feelings. He just has a 'gut feeling' about something and cannot explain.

    Function #-4 – objective intuition (Ne): the zone of fears. If the external situation is entirely complete, then a Napoleon has nothing to do. There must be a gap, and a broken harmony. “Engage the enemy, and go with the flow”. What is there to think about? For a Napoleon circumstances that are completely known and clear do not give an opportunity to act, therefore he/she tries to create a bifurcation, a stress, a conflict, when it is necessary to make decision on which further succession of events depends, when there is nothing set and fixed and it is necessary to work in unknown circumstances. A Napoleon often acts intuitively, instinctively. The working principle is “divide and conquer”.

    In sports a Napoleon hardly ever reaches high results because he does not like systematic training. If he does achieve something, it is only due to his natural latent potential.

    A Napoleon has the ability to do several things simultaneously; they say that Gaius Julius Caesar could do seven things at the same time. In that case his external world is not integral, he sees it as consisting of several parallel layers. This is one of the traits of this type that makes a Napoleon a good leader.

    A Napoleon treasures his ability to influence people. He is proud of the love and the respect the people give him. He loves to be popular and in the center of attention. A Napoleon likes to be a leader. This type is bold in sex. But a Napoleon is extremely cautious in the objective world. He lives one day at a time. This type is practical, fun to be around, yet unreliable.

    Celebrities of this type: Napoleon Bonaparte, Gaius Julius Caesar, Alexander the Great, Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Marcus Tullius Cicero, Catherine II, George Byron, Gustave Flaubert and the character of one of his novel, Madame Bovary, Stendhal, Alexander Pushkin, Leo Tolstoi and the main character of one of his novels - Anna Karenina, Rajiv Ghandi, Michael Gorbatchev, Harry Kasparov, Alla Pugatcheva.
    (*Drew BARRYMORE (actress, US), Claudia CARDINALE (actress, Italy), Ornella MUTI (actress, Italy), Elvis PRESLEY (singer, US), Britney SPEARS (singer, US), Mena SUVARI (actress, US), Elisabeth TAYLOR (actress, US), Sherilyn FENN (actress, US), Goldie HAWN (actress, US), Silvio BERLUSCONI (politician, Italy), Lech WALESA (politician, Poland), Mikhail GORBACHEV (politician, Russia), Lyndon JOHNSON (politician, US), Catherine II (monarch, Russia), Ernst ROEHM (politician, Germany, 3rd Reich), Dmitry ROGOZIN (politician, Russia), Mikhail SAAKASHVILI (politician, Georgia), Mikhail TUKHACHEVSKY (army commander, Russia), Jacques CHIRAC (politician, France), Gerhard SCHROEDER (politician, Germany).*)

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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