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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Question The Military and Types

    I don't remember where (and I'm too lazy to search it out) but I recall someone saying that the U.S. military has a sort of integral type (someone suggested ESTp if my memory is correct).

    The thing is, I've been considering a stint in the Army after I graduate from college (which without going into detail has been rather unexpectedly accelerated), likely in the medical corps. As an INFj, is this a doomed/poorly conceived option in your opinion? Perhaps it might be pertinent to sort of talk about my reasoning in going this route. There are numerous practical benefits that I see (a steady job, student loan forgiveness, practical medical experience towards being say a physician's assistant). I don't kid myself that it would be easy, especially the harshness of boot camp.

    In some ways I think that could have some positive aspects even though I know it won't be enjoyable. This prospect of self-growth is probably one of the more significant aspects in my desire to serve. If that turned out to be illusory or false, among other things, then I can also see the next four to six years being hell. Anyway, this probably sounds more like I'm asking for life advice rather than the socionic kind, but I'm pretty much keen to hear what you all have to say on the particulars of my case or the more general aspect of INFj's and the realities of a military career, etc.
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    I have defended in tye wiki that the integral type of any modern army is ISTj.

    I also think that Alpha-Beta sensor types are best suited for the army.

    But I would guess - just guess - that the medical corps is something apart, perhaps more Delta as a whole.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I have defended in tye wiki that the integral type of any modern army is ISTj.

    I also think that Alpha-Beta sensor types are best suited for the army.

    But I would guess - just guess - that the medical corps is something apart, perhaps more Delta as a whole.
    But I would not be quick to discount the presence of Gamma in the military.
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    I would think LSI would be the most likely integral type for the military, but overall I think it's best suited to ST types.

    LSI > SLE and LSE > SLI


    Personally, I really cannot fathom why anyone would subject themselves to being in the military. However, I know that this is just a failure on my part to understand something that a lot of people apparently do understand.

    My EII sister was in the military but was released early for medical stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Personally, I really cannot fathom why anyone would subject themselves to being in the military. However, I know that this is just a failure on my part to understand something that a lot of people apparently do understand.
    Do you agree with Wittmont in this regard?

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    From my "inner" knowledge of the Mexican army, I can say that yes, the bulk of the army is beta. However, that betas are numerically the biggest group, it doesn't mean that they are the most powerful or influential group and I tend to think that the most powerful members of the army are actually Deltas.

    It is because the Mexican army (and probably any modern army) is structured in a way that prevents betas from going too high in the ladder. This is because the modern army no longer needs a bulk of grunts which use brute force to win a battle, but more educated and intelligent soldiers which use indirect ways to win. So the army puts more and more emphasis in academic education, where intuitives, specially from alpha and delta, are at advantage. There is even a requirement here that to get a rank above officer (colonel, etc.) one needs to have a career (engineer, medic, etc).

    I know one INFj general and I tend to believe that most generals are either INFj or ENTj. One thing which is clear to me is that 'p' is a big no-no in the army. It is rare that an ESTp or an ISTj gets to a general rank, at least from my point of view.
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    No offense at all intended, but I think it is a young boy thinking about his way in life.

    There is also the ethical aspect that you will have to come to terms with.

    Once you get in they can do what they want with you for the time you are enlisted. It may also be hard to get out even after your enlistment time is supposed to be up. I have not been in the military myself, but as an ethical type I would find it impossible to be part Crimes against Humanity and Crimes against Peace (like the invasion of Iraq). And once you are in your personal opinions don't count for much. You will be held hostage to your hopes of a nice resume. You will have to go along with whatever they say, or your hopes of a nice resume will be totally fucked. A dishonorable discharge is not a good thing to have in your papers for future job reference, and you will lose all your benefit claims etc.

    The military is a tool of the state, and if you become a part of that tool you are essentially the tool of a tool and thus expendable. I think you need to be at ease with that idea before you enlist. The military has a job to do, and that is to kill people. The military is very good at it's job. And you will be part of that machine, no matter if you tell yourself you join to save lives. Personally I think the carrot the military dangles is quite rotten. To get to it you have to compromise your own ideals, or at least I would have to. So for me it could not be an option. It is also a tough life, and many soldiers return with health and/or mental problems and quite embittered by their experiences. I think an INFx is likelier to belong to the embittered category than say a more military type such as an ISTj.

    You are young and intelligent. Create your own life, and your own path.

    /end sermon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont
    The military has a job to do, and that is to kill people.
    no, the job is to maintain order. killing people is a means to that.

    in response to the original thread, I don't think you should worry about Se polr. I mean, on a general level it may have effect, but if you have the inner strength to push yourself and take on challenges, you should be fine. I would agree with everyone else that the military is mainly beta, and that ISTj's are the most common. but I always think of ESTj when I see the loud, hard-nosed drill instructor saying "drop and give me 20". Anyway, you should seriously consider it, because, like someone else said, you are expendable, almost like a pawn.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    The military has a job to do, and that is to kill people.
    No offense at all intended...
    But that's just plain stupid. <--I seriously can't put enough of these here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    No offense at all intended...
    But that's just plain stupid. <--I seriously can't put enough of these here.
    Gee, that is actually a direct quote to me from an officer in the US army.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cracka View Post
    No offense at all intended...
    But that's just plain stupid. <--I seriously can't put enough of these here.
    well, it is something you may face in the military, depending on what you sign up for, ranks, degrees, bla bla. i don't think it should be discounted at any rate as just a "stupid" comment. although i'm not sure about the cog in the machine biz/imperialism! rant i just read.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    No offense at all intended, but I think it is a young boy thinking about his way in life.

    There is also the ethical aspect that you will have to come to terms with.

    Once you get in they can do what they want with you for the time you are enlisted. It may also be hard to get out even after your enlistment time is supposed to be up. I have not been in the military myself, but as an ethical type I would find it impossible to be part Crimes against Humanity and Crimes against Peace (like the invasion of Iraq). And once you are in your personal opinions don't count for much. You will be held hostage to your hopes of a nice resume. You will have to go along with whatever they say, or your hopes of a nice resume will be totally fucked. A dishonorable discharge is not a good thing to have in your papers for future job reference, and you will lose all your benefit claims etc.

    The military is a tool of the state, and if you become a part of that tool you are essentially the tool of a tool and thus expendable. I think you need to be at ease with that idea before you enlist. The military has a job to do, and that is to kill people. The military is very good at it's job. And you will be part of that machine, no matter if you tell yourself you join to save lives. Personally I think the carrot the military dangles is quite rotten. To get to it you have to compromise your own ideals, or at least I would have to. So for me it could not be an option. It is also a tough life, and many soldiers return with health and/or mental problems and quite embittered by their experiences. I think an INFx is likelier to belong to the embittered category than say a more military type such as an ISTj.

    You are young and intelligent. Create your own life, and your own path.

    /end sermon

    No offense taken. I can see why you would say what you have and, to be frank, over the years I've been playing it through my mind those concerns are exactly the ones to which I always return. Still, I can't shake the feeling that there's some good to be found in it all, that there are genuinely good people who need help, or that the blessings I've enjoyed and the people I've grown up with and around are worth safe-guarding. Now I'm absolutely certain that sounds naive, but that's my hope and belief.

    Maybe I can't make a difference in changing the way things are done, but I can try. That's all anyone can do really. Also, I do hold to the hope that by the time I'd consider enlisting we'll have a more reasonable commander-in-chief (which is something else I'm waiting on before making a decision), but I do appreciate what you're trying to convey. Thank you.
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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Alpha sensors in the military?

    That would go over like a lead balloon, trust me.
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    The military has a job to do, and that is to kill people.
    rar stoopid the job is to protect your country!!!!!



    I was objecting to the many civilians killed by the US military
    TERRORIST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    ...
    Do you believe that as a civilian, unlike one in the military, you are not a 'tool' of the state who, by extension, commits ethical wrongs against the citizens of the world?

    (just trying to assess how far your head is up your ass)

    You are young and intelligent. Create your own life, and your own path.
    That's what he's doing. Or is it not valid because it doesn't jive with your sensibility?

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    Quote Originally Posted by force my hand View Post
    Do you believe that as a civilian, unlike one in the military, you are not a 'tool' of the state who, by extension, commits ethical wrongs against the citizens of the world?

    (just trying to assess how far your head is up your ass)



    That's what he's doing. Or is it not valid because it doesn't jive with your sensibility?
    Well in my view if you join the military you give up your individuality to become part of the military machine.

    There is a difference between being a passive part, simply by living, and an active part of some actions in the world. I can make the choice, as an individual, not to be an active member of Crimes against Peace for example. That is a start is it not?

    Here is the logic:

    Superpowers cannot attack smaller, essentially defenseless nations just because they deem it to be in their own best interest.

    Let's take a few examples. The Soviet Union attacked Finland in 1939 just because it decided it was a good idea based on it's defense doctrine at the time. The Finns fought them off and retained independence (ask XoX if the Finns thought Soviet imperialism was ok). After WWII the Soviets invaded Hungary and Czechoslovakia because it deemed it necessary from their strategic point of view. Nazi Germany also attacked and invaded small nations because it served their interests. And now the US has adopted this same mentality. The US has decided it is ok to invade whomever it wants. Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union are famously evil for being aggressive imperialist powers, and now the US has chosen to walk the same path with it's invasion of Iraq. I would not want to be part of the Red Army, the Nazi Wehrmacht or the US Military since they are essentially committing the same crime.

    It is not a matter of political ideology. It does not matter if you are communist, nazi or a democrat. It is the act of invading someone else, to serve your own agenda, that is evil in itself. There is a reason aggressive warfare is prohibited by international law. If it is ok for the US to invade other nations to suit the US agenda, then by default it is ok for everybody else to invade other nations too if it suits their agenda. It is ok for China to invade Tibet, Pakistan, Vietnam whomever. It is ok for Russia to invade Finland, Poland, the Black Sea countries etc if they so wish.

    If you join the military when it is part of an imperialist agenda, you chose to become a willing tool in the hands of those pushing that imperialist agenda. The Soviets, the Nazis and the US are all using the same rationale - their imperialist invasions are necessary for the defense of their nations. They claim they are threatened by an outer enemy and need to be proactive in defense, this is now the US doctrine of "preemptive warfare".

    Selling aggressive warfare as a defensive war is the classic tool to get the populace to march along.

    Now I am not anti-military as such. I am no pure pacifist. I would join the military to defend my nation against a direct attack by a foreign invasion force. But I will not behave like a Soviet Red Army soldier, or a Waffen SS trooper, or a US soldier in Iraq and put my boot on the neck of other nations as part of an imperialist agenda.
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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    I don't kid myself that it would be easy, especially the harshness of boot camp.

    In some ways I think that could have some positive aspects even though I know it won't be enjoyable. This prospect of self-growth is probably one of the more significant aspects in my desire to serve. If that turned out to be illusory or false, among other things, then I can also see the next four to six years being hell.
    Even though I, like Joy, do not see the appeal in serving in the military (though like Expat said, maybe the medics are something apart), I can't help but have great admiration for this.

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